Does anyone else have issue with light-attack weaving on a technical level?

sirpz

I hear more and more, "you should have no issue getting to 40k dps" and I have absolutely no clue how that is the case. The most I've ever parsed was on an Orc Stamblade doing 38k on the PTS, while my usual parse is 30-32k, but still in all my guilds I see people easily scoring 50k+. I know how to DPS, weave/animation cancel with LA, keep up dots, know your rotation, etc, I see I get around 5.3k dps from endless hail and around 4k dps from Relequen, so for the most part thats all good, could use some minor improvements, but whatever. Looking at other people's parses however I see they score 10k+ from light attacks? (more specifically on mag toons). I have no idea how they can pull that off

No matter what I do when I parse, half the time I'll get caught up, ill try spamming a skill and it just wont proc, a LA wont go off despite rapidly clicking the mouse (while not even doing any other skill). Even something as simple as a surprise attack/LA weave, ill end up spamming surprise attacks because my LA wont go off, I need to slow down my rotation to a painfully slow point for me to do anything. Even relentless focus and Relequens, I will be sitting there hitting the dummy with LA and neither Relequen or relentless focus will proc. I have no idea what to do. On top of that it also includes using skills when bar swapping, I'll pop a siphoning strikes and bar swap, only to find out my siphoning strikes actually didn't even pop.

I feel like if I became perfect at this game I could *maybe* hit 40k, but it feels like the game has me capped from going past that point while others race ahead, leaving me behind unable to do harder vet trials. Mag toons are the absolute worst offenders. I cannot even hit 30k on my magblade, I can have a near perfect rotation and solid up times with BiS gear, and I'll still hit 29k on a parse. Sometimes my game will lag and I wont do anything for 3 seconds, only to have every skill I used over those 3 seconds goes off at once.

I don't want it to seem like I'm just whining, but I'm curious if anyone else has had issues like this, because none of my guildies knows whats wrong, some said it was packet-loss, but idk, any fixes?

just for reference, I live in Pennsylvania with solid internet, I've used a wired and wireless connection, I've used 3 different computers and 2 different mouse/keyboards, all the same issue

KBKB

Mate, I'm going to let you in a secret here that people are too fan boi to admit.

PvE in this game is beyond awful, at a time it was just dominated by stupid RnG AoE and one shots required more luck than evasion to survive a fight, regardless of that being the past and they've moved in a better direction for design if you dont have a good ping your DPS will dramatically suffer why have the animation in the fist place if we are meant to clip through them. So why over here in AU where i have 380 ping regularly unless I use Mudfish (another story) should I suffer?

The whole design is incredibly flawed and leaves your toon looking like its a savage. For Sorc I don't even know what the rotation is anymore used to be

WoE>LA>Liquid lightening>LA>Force pulse>LA>Force pulse>LA repeat will hitting your shard procs in between that is so simple, so boring , and so stupid Im taping my mouse between every skill the WoW auto attack skill to name just one is far superior.

So here I am looking my toon has epilepsy and is having a standing fit the way its flailing around and all Im doing it using is using like 3 abilities in the burn phase of a boss feels stupid because of all the performance issues with the game im meant to continue snipping an ability with .2/.3 second margin for error on my ping its not just boring its inefficient I'll ask the question again why have animations if we just snip them off?

In you scenario I can only think of CP allocation or something because we all seem to get stuck on an ability and miss the clip at times DUE TO ITS TERRIBLE DESIGN Or maybe clipping into inefficient spells/skills? I'm not sure.

Rest assured its not just you, I got so annoyed with it I have not PvE'd anything past a normal dungeon in about 3 years I have no idea how to DPS on any toons anymore the thought of pulling 57k DPS on a NB makes me think trash pull because I can't conceive it possible nor on my sorc warden DK or especially templar? what do they even use for damage from class skills short of PoL anymore jabs would be awful single target I thought.

So now I only PvP which comes with issues but I dont have to deliver 1479 light attacks with perfect timing on a flawed premise and game for it.

Iskiab

I have similar issues too. Nowhere near as bad, but similar.

Funny you mentioned mag classes being worse, I’ve noticed the same. When I try to dps as a magblade my light attacks don’t fire - a lot. This kills my dps despite having BiS gear. When I go on an alt and use a 2 hander it’s really fluid, I think the long light attack animation for fire staves is the issue.

It’s extremely frustrating, in a past game Rift at one point I was the highest parsing person for my class and in this game I can’t break 30k. That’s a full 40 percent behind. I worked at it a lot, slowed down my skill use until I made sure a light attack would fire before every skill. Unfortunately I then figured out I was only using an ability every 1.5 seconds or so, so would never have competitive dps.

I’ve coped by only healing in pve. No issues as a healer, but forget dpsing.

Jameliel

Lag destroys dps in this game. Weaving is nearly impossible in Cyrodiil for me. PvE half the time light attacks dont fire off. Frags shows its procced, but then hard casts instead. Lighting pool and blockade dont go off sometimes. Curse and my spammable are about the only ones that work consistently.

Daedric_NB_187

I have the same issues, but on Xbox. My light attacks rarely go off when they are supposed to. My ultimate also doesn't fire off when I cast it even though the yellow ground target animation shows that it fired off.

I'm at a loss.

Zypheran

I'm on EU server and my ping is always bad. I have long ago given up any dreams or aspirations of being a dps monster! AC and weaving is just to inconsistent for me. This isn't a skill issue. I've been playing for years, I have a solid rotation and know how to AC and LA weave but on a good day 50% of my LA's won't fire! And definitely worse with a staff.
I've said this many times before, all this commotion around balance when there's hardly 2k dps in the difference. All this uproar about power creep from CP when it only gives a few percent at the upper end. The real gap between the dps floor and ceiling is the capacity to AC and LA weave. If ZOS really wanted to reduce the power gap, this is what needs to be addressed. Some people in some regions simply can't reliably perform a rotation with this precision due to lag.

MLGProPlayer

All it takes is a few mistimed ability casts and your DPS will drop by a few thousand points. The margin for error is very small in high end DPS.

A lot of the time, things will be out of your control (i.e. lag, light attack queue bug, etc.), hence why you typically need to run a few tests to get a realistic average.

Knootewoot

I have the same on my Magblade.
Light attack won't go off most of the times, and thus my merciless won't proc.
Also the DPS race is more of a chore then fun if groups demand 40k fps.
Therefore I only join guild dungeon runs or I run them solo if I can.
Thankfully nobody in PVP groups complain about DPS.

ccfeeling

Connection speed, then skills

Can Liko hit over 50k with 350+ ping?

Zordrage

i All ways hated weaving in this game and animation canceling in ANY other mmo that have it...

they are easy to do but feels totally ***/ugly and its just simply unnecessary gimmick/Bug name it how you wan't that just makes fights a more tiring because of that stupid Anicancel spamming....

Beardimus

I'm with the sentiment here what it takes for good dps just isn't particularly fun to do. I can do it, is it fun, no. Like a robotic trained monkey bashing the keys. End game pve was a disappointment for me beyond VMA for that reason.

KBKB

I must say the responses in this thread are so refreshing, after I typed my reply to the OP I braced myself for the "gitguds/DPS isn't hard bro" people that always come in and trash the joint. So far very mature and warming thank you all.

MartiniDaniels

Try to tweak graphics and minimize skill visual effects as much as possible. I dont have much problems with LA and AC on dummy and in dungeons, but in trial, wow sometimes it's a mess when la hits half of the time and ulti fires only after several seconds you cast it and so on.

Seewul

same problem here few months ago when came for a visit and played whit some dummies.
thing i notised = i was trying to be too fast, there is a rhytm u must find, do it as slow as u need first( to get those la´s in), after like 100-1000 kills @ 3M dummy u have developed some muscle memory for the pace and u will improve dramatically.

"Social games should be about an exchange of emotions, not numbers" - Jenova Chen
https://www.polygon.com/2014/4/25/5653356/jenova-chen-social-games-emotions-journey

sirpz

KBKB wrote: »

I must say the responses in this thread are so refreshing, after I typed my reply to the OP I braced myself for the "gitguds/DPS isn't hard bro" people that always come in and trash the joint. So far very mature and warming thank you all.

absolutely agree. When I made the post I partially expected to be trashed. Its good to see people having similar struggles while voicing them so I'm not alone on the matter. I definitely enjoyed your take on the matter in your first comment.

Each day I come to recognize how good of a community ESO is lol

Mayrael

I'm PvP player mostly but I had few attempts to become PvE DD, it always failed because of reasons above, so I stick to PvP, but even there it's extremely frustrating when you hit the skill/LA, roll dodge just to see that it didn't fired off... This game performance gets worse with each update.

Chronocidal

perth australia here .... 300ms ping (on a good day)

1) cant reliably bar swap,
2) cant reliably LA weave,
3) cant reliably animation cancel,
4) or even maintain playability in a crowded area without the game becoming a slide show or simply crashing

I've given up trying to do anything beyond normal level public dungeons

So thats about as exciting as this game gets as far as I'm concerned since everything else is basically impossible thanks to latency and the asinine weaving requirement this game demands

EDIT

upside is theres a ton of content even at that minimum level

TheInfernalRage

Chronocidal wrote: »

asinine weaving requirement this game demands

There, one of the problems. Just to be clear. That and proc sets.

Jamdarius

sirpz wrote: »

I hear more and more, "you should have no issue getting to 40k dps" and I have absolutely no clue how that is the case. The most I've ever parsed was on an Orc Stamblade doing 38k on the PTS, while my usual parse is 30-32k, but still in all my guilds I see people easily scoring 50k+. I know how to DPS, weave/animation cancel with LA, keep up dots, know your rotation, etc, I see I get around 5.3k dps from endless hail and around 4k dps from Relequen, so for the most part thats all good, could use some minor improvements, but whatever. Looking at other people's parses however I see they score 10k+ from light attacks? (more specifically on mag toons). I have no idea how they can pull that off

No matter what I do when I parse, half the time I'll get caught up, ill try spamming a skill and it just wont proc, a LA wont go off despite rapidly clicking the mouse (while not even doing any other skill). Even something as simple as a surprise attack/LA weave, ill end up spamming surprise attacks because my LA wont go off, I need to slow down my rotation to a painfully slow point for me to do anything. Even relentless focus and Relequens, I will be sitting there hitting the dummy with LA and neither Relequen or relentless focus will proc. I have no idea what to do. On top of that it also includes using skills when bar swapping, I'll pop a siphoning strikes and bar swap, only to find out my siphoning strikes actually didn't even pop.

I feel like if I became perfect at this game I could *maybe* hit 40k, but it feels like the game has me capped from going past that point while others race ahead, leaving me behind unable to do harder vet trials. Mag toons are the absolute worst offenders. I cannot even hit 30k on my magblade, I can have a near perfect rotation and solid up times with BiS gear, and I'll still hit 29k on a parse. Sometimes my game will lag and I wont do anything for 3 seconds, only to have every skill I used over those 3 seconds goes off at once.

I don't want it to seem like I'm just whining, but I'm curious if anyone else has had issues like this, because none of my guildies knows whats wrong, some said it was packet-loss, but idk, any fixes?

just for reference, I live in Pennsylvania with solid internet, I've used a wired and wireless connection, I've used 3 different computers and 2 different mouse/keyboards, all the same issue

Well in my case it is not possible to weave LA properly due to having fingers broken in an accident years ago (they are 2 stiff now so I am not rly that fast with them) so I always thought that might be the case, but seeing as more and more people say it is not possible for them I guess something must be broken (and it is not my fingers xD).

People always said to me I should switch to psijic spammable + LA instead of my force pulse and LA for my magden but no matter how hard I try to the point of fingers hurting I never get higher DPS on the psijic + LA.

Also agree that animation cancelling should just be impossible to do and not existing at all, it would make game more fair to us all and players would actually have to do their job and get to know mechanics instead of burning vet bosses faster with 50k+ dps each player...

alanmatillab16_ESO

If ZOS want to stomp on power creep then they should not look at nerfing characters, instead they should stop animation cancelling being possible.

mairwen85

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

If ZOS want to stomp on power creep then they should not look at nerfing characters, instead they should stop animation cancelling being possible.

Please.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Animation cancelling won't increase your dps magically; it only helps a player tighten up their rotation.

... they assume the cast animation to work as the timer for GCD

[snip]

... most animations overrun it.

For all those against bar swapping or block tapping to exit cast animations that overrun the GCD, take your complaint to ZoS and demand they ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s -- that way animation cancelling becomes a moot point in this kind of conversation.

profundidob16_ESO

It be awesome if ZOS could rework the whole dps system into something that still involves making the right choices of what skill button to press when -in order to achieve max dps- but no longer dependent on things like latency and graphical animation.

It should be so that even with 400ms you're easily able to produce the same dps parse as someone with 60ms

in addition, animation cancelling should not be a thing. Good game design for me personally includes tweaking and tuning each skill -with it's cast time- and their animation so that spamming them leads to one continous flow of visual animation with as only requirement that your computer is capable of displaying it cpu and gpu wise.

There are enough other games out there that have succesfully implemented this, even at higher speed. Black Desert Online for instance creates for a very high speed continuous flow of animations perfectly in line with the skill's resulting effect.

Red_Feather

I play capcom games where animation canceling is done well and do fine there... however my hand-eye co-ordination is not good enough to worry about animation canceling in this game. This game's canceling is weird and sketchy at best.

Kalgert

Recently I have been noticing a delay with my abilities and attacks registering on the enemy. Not what I call a good situation.

And I am glad to see more people coming here to say "Yeah PvE isn't all that great". Usually you see people saying "Naw man, it's totes legit, u just suxy".

Recently I have reached to the conclusion that I feel too frustrated by the PvE that I simply opted to just giving up on it. Too much to take account in to, and somehow people with similar builds to another person somehow end up out-DPSing each other due to Dali Llama logic.

Wanted to reroll in to a Warden Tank. Apparently that has a whole layer of rules just as well (Namely how I MUST use a Frost Staff, no room for a two-handed weapon for execution/brawler shield/regeneration from one ability, no sir!), and I think to myself "It is just not worth it". I hate staves after a failed attempt at being a Fire Mage.

Oh well... I still have a Templar character that I can return to... Until I am told that the only reasonable second weapon should be a Restoration Staff, then I'll probably just give up on the entire game and just sit in cities doing nothing.

ZonasArch

I promise you, there are many many many more regular players on the 10-15k range than even me on 20-25 or you on your 30k.

That's why you're seeing people being nice... This is a relatable problem, either for latency issues, or otherwise.

As for getting to 40k and up, unless you want to do HM dungeon or vet trials, you're fine where you are. Even some vHM are doable. I can do them on my 25k, you can do them on your 30k.

I'm in Brazil, 300ping, I have to choose between weaving or using the right skill at the right time. If I weave, one of the two attacks won't go off, either LA or skill, and never in any fight, I'll prefer a loner LA over a hard hitting skill. I can cancel animations for bar swapping mostly fine, but that's about it.

And you wanna know what? I'm having more fun than anyone trying so hard to get that flawless rotations. I'm winning in my book... Join me in not caring too much about it.

macsmooth

Are the light attacks not getting buffed by the cp passive for light and heavy attacks do more damage?

I’m not pc I’m console so don’t take my word on the next bit, I remember reading that there was a add on for pc that helped with animation cancelling again I don’t know how true that is

I’m on console and animation cancelling weaving and bar swapping can be a pain to do, I changed my controller to an elite controller and found it to be much better than the old controllers but I can do weaving animation cancelling on my Stam Sorc better than I can on the other classes but I’m old so slower reaction times and memory losses while doing rotations don’t help lol

mairwen85

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

It be awesome if ZOS could rework the whole dps system into something that still involves making the right choices of what skill button to press when -in order to achieve max dps- but no longer dependent on things like latency and graphical animation.

It should be so that even with 400ms you're easily able to produce the same dps parse as someone with 60ms

in addition, animation cancelling should not be a thing. Good game design for me personally includes tweaking and tuning each skill -with it's cast time- and their animation so that spamming them leads to one continous flow of visual animation with as only requirement that your computer is capable of displaying it cpu and gpu wise.

There are enough other games out there that have succesfully implemented this, even at higher speed. Black Desert Online for instance creates for a very high speed continuous flow of animations perfectly in line with the skill's resulting effect.

I don't think it's right to demand a company revise its product because your internet connection is bad.

The argument: my hardware/firmware/connection is bad therefore it's not fair is a false statement.

If your PC is a crappy rig, is that the game designer's responsibility? If you have a 30Hz gamma green monitor, should the game publisher compensate you for not being able to enjoy the colours?

Same applies here.

Generally accepted is that ping>150 is bad for gaming -- especially competitive gaming like shooters and fighting games. There are many methods to improve your ping regardless of your ISP. But ultimately, no game designer or publisher is going to accommodate to your service provision state. That's just the reality of it, unfortunate as it is.

However, you can compensate by investing CP differently to the LA rotation builds -- using a heavy rotation, or focusing on non-proc flat damage builds with perma-buffs. You can work around your technical limitations with a bit of imagination.

Maybe what this thread needs is a few suggestions on that --- how to build for high ping and still have reasonable damage output. Maybe pull some theory crafters in here to help?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/353459/competitive-pve-dps-build-for-high-pingers

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392042/vids-tays-lag-proof-ish-magplar-build-lagplar-300-ping/

https://youtu.be/nA8MOrMjj6E

profundidob16_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

It be awesome if ZOS could rework the whole dps system into something that still involves making the right choices of what skill button to press when -in order to achieve max dps- but no longer dependent on things like latency and graphical animation.

It should be so that even with 400ms you're easily able to produce the same dps parse as someone with 60ms

in addition, animation cancelling should not be a thing. Good game design for me personally includes tweaking and tuning each skill -with it's cast time- and their animation so that spamming them leads to one continous flow of visual animation with as only requirement that your computer is capable of displaying it cpu and gpu wise.

There are enough other games out there that have succesfully implemented this, even at higher speed. Black Desert Online for instance creates for a very high speed continuous flow of animations perfectly in line with the skill's resulting effect.

I don't think it's right to demand a company revise its product because your internet connection is bad.

The argument: my hardware/firmware/connection is bad therefore it's not fair is a false statement.

If your PC is a crappy rig, is that the game designer's responsibility? If you have a 30Hz gamma green monitor, should the game publisher compensate you for not being able to enjoy the colours?

Wrong my friend.

If you read my post carefully you will notice I never demanded that ZOS revises it's product because my particular internet connection is bad. I merely said that good and proper game design builds their game to accommodate for the entire intended audience, not just the part that happens to live closest to the datacenter and therefore has lowest latency.

Do you honestly think it's proper game design to build a game that sends a big FU to for instance all Australian players ? I know enough counter examples. Starcraft II for instance changes the speed of the game automatically for all group members when it detects that 1 of the players in the group has high latency or low pc specs, ensuring equal chances to all group members.

If you allow this, then tell me just how far should a company like ZOS be allowed go in their exclusion of a part of the intended audience ? Make it even more resistrictive until only 10% in the end is able to play ? is 40% ok for you while 60% gets a big FU ? Who are you to decide that anyway ?

Sorry but I vote for equality and fair chances for everyone.

ps: I'm an EU player with a steady awesome 60ms ping and a 5000€ top of the line dream pc that only few players can afford and keeps ESO fluent under all conditions. In other words I'm not speaking up for myself but out of sympathy for the others that suffer

Cously

My only two problems with the current mechanisms are:

1) They weren't intended but the devs were too lazy/incompetent to fix it so became a feature.
2) It screws players with high latency.

The first shows bad design, not for the system itself but this is their job, to design those things, the least they can do is do it right. The second is a personal problem so I concede it's not a solid argument, high latency players are most likely not a demography the care about.

I think there should be a revamp and best of both worlds. Fix everything that wasn't intended in those mechanisms and keep a layer of "skill". The greatest thing of ESO is that is very interactive and makes you be focused on combat 100% of time, this should be fostered.

TL:DR: Remove or keep it is pointless, just do the damn thing right instead of claim oops can't fix it, wasn't intended...

mairwen85

@profundidob16_ESO

I never said you were demanding anything. I'm also not attacking anyone here.

I'm also not saying its OK to send a FU to anyone.

What I am saying is that technical limitations exist, and they can't always be catered for.

What I am saying is that as a community we can be offering positive assistance and advice to players suffering for it instead of negativity and bemoaning.

Hence, let's try to think up some build or rotation strategies to effectively workaround high ping...

Cously wrote: »

TL:DR: Remove or keep it is pointless, just do the damn thing right instead of claim oops can't fix it, wasn't intended...

AC can be removed from the game as follows:

ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s

Animation cancelling is then redundant and serves no purpose.

Animation cancelling is already redundant to the purpose of this thread -- weaving and animation cancelling are not the same thing (see post further up with link).

Light/Heavy attack weaving on the other hand makes sense as part of the overall flow of combat -- it's little more than queuing up attacks.

Irfind

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

ps: I'm an EU player with a steady awesome 60ms ping and a 5000€ top of the line dream pc that only few players can afford and keeps ESO fluent under all conditions. In other words I'm not speaking up for myself but out of sympathy for the others that suffer

Uhh i would love that ping i live in germany 50k inet but get only 100-120 ping ingame