Does anyone else have issue with light-attack weaving on a technical level?

mairwen85

jbranstub17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

@jbranstub17_ESO

However, the reason cast animations overrun the GCD is to allow for a buffer to stop message stacking from input.

Strip that away and your ping problem becomes a bigger one.

Then maybe the problem really is game design. Still something ZOS should work on.

Its a server-client architecture design, not specific to gaming -- but I agree, there probably is an alternative implementation that doesn't leave people feeling they're missing out for the sake of 0.1 or 0.2 seconds (i.e. shave off 1 second per 10 seconds) and potentially increase their personal dps by 1K.

DivineFirstYOLO

sirpz wrote: »

I hear more and more, "you should have no issue getting to 40k dps" and I have absolutely no clue how that is the case. The most I've ever parsed was on an Orc Stamblade doing 38k on the PTS, while my usual parse is 30-32k, but still in all my guilds I see people easily scoring 50k+. I know how to DPS, weave/animation cancel with LA, keep up dots, know your rotation, etc, I see I get around 5.3k dps from endless hail and around 4k dps from Relequen, so for the most part thats all good, could use some minor improvements, but whatever. Looking at other people's parses however I see they score 10k+ from light attacks? (more specifically on mag toons). I have no idea how they can pull that off

No matter what I do when I parse, half the time I'll get caught up, ill try spamming a skill and it just wont proc, a LA wont go off despite rapidly clicking the mouse (while not even doing any other skill). Even something as simple as a surprise attack/LA weave, ill end up spamming surprise attacks because my LA wont go off, I need to slow down my rotation to a painfully slow point for me to do anything. Even relentless focus and Relequens, I will be sitting there hitting the dummy with LA and neither Relequen or relentless focus will proc. I have no idea what to do. On top of that it also includes using skills when bar swapping, I'll pop a siphoning strikes and bar swap, only to find out my siphoning strikes actually didn't even pop.

I feel like if I became perfect at this game I could *maybe* hit 40k, but it feels like the game has me capped from going past that point while others race ahead, leaving me behind unable to do harder vet trials. Mag toons are the absolute worst offenders. I cannot even hit 30k on my magblade, I can have a near perfect rotation and solid up times with BiS gear, and I'll still hit 29k on a parse. Sometimes my game will lag and I wont do anything for 3 seconds, only to have every skill I used over those 3 seconds goes off at once.

I don't want it to seem like I'm just whining, but I'm curious if anyone else has had issues like this, because none of my guildies knows whats wrong, some said it was packet-loss, but idk, any fixes?

just for reference, I live in Pennsylvania with solid internet, I've used a wired and wireless connection, I've used 3 different computers and 2 different mouse/keyboards, all the same issue

Your post seems to be genuine so here is some help:
a) 38k on PTS and usually 30-32k is already decent, don't give up and keep learning.

b) Magicka (with staves) builds usually deal 10k+ dps with light attacks - the trick is not to miss any light attacks (try using an addon called "light attack helper" to track the amount of light attacks you do, if you see you miss some light attacks just slow down a bit, practice is everything!)

c) You wrote that your rotation is perfect and up times are solid - perfect rotation is very very important, but there is more to consider: in what order do you cast your skills? Are you applying debuffs first? How do you go into execute phase with your nightblade? - Usually you want to Incap at around 26/27% followed up by a bow proc to have so much burst to reach execute phase and immediately start spamming killer's blade to still benefit from Incap +20% dmg buff and so on.

d) Have you compared your parses with other player parses? You say you get 4k dps from relequen - that's a bit low, so either your relequen up time is not good or your major fracture up time is not good, or your Piercing CP/mundus are not right.
If you have no access to major fracture at all (stam sorc) then 4k dps is fine I guess (don't quote me on that tho, need to compare other stam sorc solo parses in that case!)

There is much more to consider...
Whats your ping and frames by the way? You did not mention that in your first post.


Now to the "get rid of animation cancelling" crier:
You are not going to clear the more difficult content even if ZOS removes animation cancelling. In fact, ZOS could change the whole system and you guys would not be able to clear the hard stuff.

ZeroXFF

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

This isn't a question of too easy or too hard. You don't make it "lenient" by removing the effects of latency, you make it the same for everyone regardless of latency.

jbranstub17_ESO

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Here is what ZOS should do (or rather should have done from the start):
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as cheap spammables when designing gear or skills around them.
2. Shorten/accelerate long skill animations to match the GCD.
3. Make bar swap client side, so that it's not affected by lag.

These 3 things would solve so many issues...

Yess. Especially 3.

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

The danger with that is you fall into the trap of just accepting everything. Some things can be improved. We should keep reminding them and pushing them to make whatever improvements they can.

Hell, if nothing else, they'll get tired of our complaints and the next ZOS game will have a OCE server.

squinceybones

How are you supposed to make the game the same regardless of latency, it's an online game, data has to be sent from A to B and generally speaking the farther it goes the longer it takes.

It's not about accepting everything. It's about understanding the constraints of playing a game on a server in a different country, and maybe, just maybe focusing on what you can improve yourself rather than what someone else may or may not be able to do for you.

KittyHazWares

I can use light attacks on a parse all day (and ele weapon) but when it comes to actually playing content I can’t get my LAs to go off. Like when I’m moving about, etc, they seem to not register half of the time. I can have my target marked also, doesn’t make a difference.

I am retired from trials, so I don’t really care, it’s especially bad in PvP though.

I’m on console, so the frame rate sucks regardless.

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

and maybe, just maybe focusing on what you can improve yourself rather than what someone else may or may not be able to do for you.

Why not both?

squinceybones

Because one you can control and one you can't.

I feel like you're under the impression you'll magically become a super player with less ping and it's just not the case. It's no different from people carrying on about oh I can't do that I'm not max CP, CP amplifies what you already have, it doesn't make you better.

Ri_Khan

The day when I don't have to spam my controls 2-3 times in order to get attacks and skills to simply fire will be a beautiful day indeed. I'll just keep dreaming over here tho, cause it ain't gonna happen. The lack of responsiveness and overall terrible performance of this game anytime I'm around other players, PVP or PVE, has come to be expected. Oh and I have great internet, a solid machine and live near one of the biggest cities in the world.

It's sad, it's 2019 and we're still stuck on lag.

ZeroXFF

squinceybones wrote: »

How are you supposed to make the game the same regardless of latency, it's an online game, data has to be sent from A to B and generally speaking the farther it goes the longer it takes.

It's not about accepting everything. It's about understanding the constraints of playing a game on a server in a different country, and maybe, just maybe focusing on what you can improve yourself rather than what someone else may or may not be able to do for you.

For example making bar swap client side. It will then work exactly the same regardless of your latency. There are many more things like this that could be done in regards to design.

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

Because one you can control and one you can't.

I feel like you're under the impression you'll magically become a super player with less ping and it's just not the case. It's no different from people carrying on about oh I can't do that I'm not max CP, CP amplifies what you already have, it doesn't make you better.

The game is run by people, not an act of God. I can't do anything about it directly, but ZOS can if they have reason to do so. They can't shorten the distance or install quantum-entanglement network adapters, but they may be able to refine game mechanics to reduce the penalties latency brings.

I don't live in the oceanic region all the time. I'm actually from the US. I'm abroad most of the time, and in the US maybe a month of each year. Maybe you've never experienced true low ping connection to ESO, but it is almost magical. It's a great feeling and much less frustrating. I can fully understand where latency complaints come from.

Look, I'm not looking for a magic all-fix cure. But I'm sure something can be done. Some in this thread have already suggested some.

squinceybones

I don't know enough about game design to have a discussion about things like client side bar swaps, but maybe you do. Does it have any negative affects on the bar swap mechanic in cloudrest for example. I feel like there must be a reason it is the way it is, but as I said i don't know. What other thing's could they move client side and how would or wouldn't it affect people's gaming experience?

profundidob16_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

that is what the original Global Cooldown (1.5 or even 2sec) timer was invented for in the first place. It ensures that regular ping players and ultra low latency players still all press the buttons around the same time at best, leading to equal results. In addition in ensures that animations can be finished so you don't get this whole animation cancelling crap

squinceybones

Send them a tweet or tag a mod, you won't get a conclusive answer from me in regards to them changing anything. Personally I don't see why they would, it's not worth their time or effort. I have never experienced ESO on a low ping, I think the best i got was about 270 for a minute or two. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me, you've had a taste of what it could be and it sucks to go back, pretty reasonable.

ZeroXFF

squinceybones wrote: »

I don't know enough about game design to have a discussion about things like client side bar swaps, but maybe you do. Does it have any negative affects on the bar swap mechanic in cloudrest for example. I feel like there must be a reason it is the way it is, but as I said i don't know. What other thing's could they move client side and how would or wouldn't it affect people's gaming experience?

You might see the wrong weapons on your opponents in PvP for the duration proportional to the latency of the both of you. It would also require some redesign in regards to how passives work that require a certain weapon and the same with skills that give passive effects for being slotted.

As for the cloudrest mechanic, it would not be affected. Your game would still report how long you were on what bar and the server would calculate damage based on that. It might add a little rubberbanding, but if you're playing with high latency it's nothing surprising.

As for other things, I made a post about it on the previous page.

squinceybones

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

that is what the original Global Cooldown (1.5 or even 2sec) timer was invented for in the first place. It ensures that regular ping players and ultra low latency players still all press the buttons around the same time at best, leading to equal results. In addition in ensures that animations can be finished so you don't get this whole animation cancelling crap

Do we really need to go around the animation cancelling block again... I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point but if all that is true then what's the problem? Did they change the global cooldown or something?

squinceybones

You might see the wrong weapons on your opponents in PvP for the duration proportional to the latency of the both of you. It would also require some redesign in regards to how passives work that require a certain weapon and the same with skills that give passive effects for being slotted.

As for the cloudrest mechanic, it would not be affected. Your game would still report how long you were on what bar and the server would calculate damage based on that. It might add a little rubberbanding, but if you're playing with high latency it's nothing surprising.

As for other things, I made a post about it on the previous page.[/quote]

Cool I'll check it out. You say it might add a little rubberbanding, to me the game feels relatively smooth compared to other game's I've played at 300 ping, take PUBG for example, where everything does feel laggy. In ESO if i press right, i move right whereas PUBG i press right i move in half a second or so. Is the problem just hidden somewhere else to make it feel better?

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

I don't know enough about game design to have a discussion about things like client side bar swaps, but maybe you do. Does it have any negative affects on the bar swap mechanic in cloudrest for example. I feel like there must be a reason it is the way it is, but as I said i don't know. What other thing's could they move client side and how would or wouldn't it affect people's gaming experience?

I'm sure one part of it is so you broadcast what weapon type you're using to other players. Also, some skills affect the weapon you're using. However, I feel like all of this could still be done client-side. Maybe they're trying to prevent exploits.

Cloudrest is a good point. On that one, the server would have to be aware of which weapon you're holding at all times.

Doing more things client side is faster but is open to exploits. Server side is safer, if laggier. Personally, I think ESO errs too much on the side of caution.

Kikke

People live in countries with terrible internet connection and goes on and blames a game developer xD Lol xP

profundidob16_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

that is what the original Global Cooldown (1.5 or even 2sec) timer was invented for in the first place. It ensures that regular ping players and ultra low latency players still all press the buttons around the same time at best, leading to equal results. In addition in ensures that animations can be finished so you don't get this whole animation cancelling crap

Do we really need to go around the animation cancelling block again... I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point but if all that is true then what's the problem? Did they change the global cooldown or something?

yes, they changed the Global CD over time in mmo's compared to the first generation mmo's by making it shorter and shorter and therefore introduce latency problems resulting in lower dps for higher latency players as well as (more cosmetic) less important animation cancelling problems. This is a design mistake on devs side.

Trivia: devs of the first gen mmo's did not make this mistake. In vanilla WOW for instance almost every skill had a 'big' GCD timer attached to it and the only few so called "instant" skills (without the general GCD being attached) were chosen and designed specifically not to have an animation to it. In favor of making the game 'feel more responsive" to faster gameplay for low latency player the general GCD was shortened over time in newer iterations and games, including ESO.

note that even if you consider the animation problem less relevant (it's mostly cosmetic after all) that's fine but you completely overlooked and omitted the most important part. This time I marked it in bold for you

squinceybones

ESO has had problem's with cheat engine in the past, so i can't say i blame them for being cautious. I know from thing's like league of legends that having client side thing's open's up exploits. It's pretty fair, albeit ironic that they place a high priority on reducing holes for exploits.

Iskiab

Most MMOs do not use light attacks and have ability queues so ping and packet loss are not an issue unless your internet is really bad.

Regardless, the Lagplar build has given me an idea. We should compile a list of which classes play best with high latency or packet loss. From what I’ve figured out:

The Bad:
Magicka classes - stay away, fire staff light attacks do not fire a lot
Nightblades - stay away. Your sustain is dependent on on your light attacks, you have to compensate by heavy attacking a lot or adding more sustain on your jewellery. Impossible to get into a rhythm because of varying lag and inconsistency of when your light attacks don’t fire. People say magblades take the most skill, BS. The rotation even using priority is easy, it just takes the best internet.

The Good:
- bows. Really fast animation for light attacks making them a good choice. I actually parse higher as a magblade using a bow then I do with a fire staff because the animation is so much better.
- 2 handers. Quick animation, really fluid.

I just have to figure out which stam class is the least reliant on light attacks and my dps will probably skyrocket

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

Cool I'll check it out. You say it might add a little rubberbanding, to me the game feels relatively smooth compared to other game's I've played at 300 ping, take PUBG for example, where everything does feel laggy. In ESO if i press right, i move right whereas PUBG i press right i move in half a second or so. Is the problem just hidden somewhere else to make it feel better?

On ESO, it seems that it doesn't update your server position in the client until something happens that requires it. This lets you see a uniform smooth experience, but you'll notice that if you die or get rooted, you will snap back to the position where you were affected server-side.

squinceybones

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.

that is what the original Global Cooldown (1.5 or even 2sec) timer was invented for in the first place. It ensures that regular ping players and ultra low latency players still all press the buttons around the same time at best, leading to equal results. In addition in ensures that animations can be finished so you don't get this whole animation cancelling crap

Do we really need to go around the animation cancelling block again... I'm not quite sure where you're going with this point but if all that is true then what's the problem? Did they change the global cooldown or something?

yes, they changed the Global CD over time in mmo's compared to the first generation mmo's by making it shorter and shorter and therefore introduce latency problems resulting in lower dps for higher latency players as well as (more cosmetic) less important animation cancelling problems. This is a design mistake on devs side.

Trivia: devs of the first gen mmo's did not make this mistake. In vanilla WOW for instance almost every skill had a 'big' GCD timer attached to it and the only few so called "instant" skills (without the general GCD being attached) were chosen and designed specifically not to have an animation to it. In favor of making the game 'feel more responsive" to faster gameplay for low latency player the general GCD was shortened over time in newer iterations and games, including ESO.

note that even if you consider the animation problem less relevant (it's mostly cosmetic after all) that's fine but you completely overlooked and omitted the most important part. This time I marked it in bold for you

I was more concerned with this game... not others, given that this is the one we're playing. I think zos has said a few time's that there's limitations to the things they can or are willing to change because they don't want to re-do the combat system. They're happy with how it plays.

ZeroXFF

squinceybones wrote: »

ESO has had problem's with cheat engine in the past, so i can't say i blame them for being cautious. I know from thing's like league of legends that having client side thing's open's up exploits. It's pretty fair, albeit ironic that they place a high priority on reducing holes for exploits.

The server could still perform sanity checks and either report the cheaters or rubberband them to where they should be (both in regards to position and stats).

Eirella

I've been noticing light attacks not firing correctly, as well as some skills, ever since they did that animation change in the dark brotherhood (I think?) update. That was a terrible change, ruined the fluidity of combat imho.

squinceybones

jbranstub17_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

Cool I'll check it out. You say it might add a little rubberbanding, to me the game feels relatively smooth compared to other game's I've played at 300 ping, take PUBG for example, where everything does feel laggy. In ESO if i press right, i move right whereas PUBG i press right i move in half a second or so. Is the problem just hidden somewhere else to make it feel better?

On ESO, it seems that it doesn't update your server position in the client until something happens that requires it. This lets you see a uniform smooth experience, but you'll notice that if you die or get rooted, you will snap back to the position where you were affected server-side.

I think we've all been there "oh i was out of that" more often than not you weren't. I do feel we have less wiggle room for thing's like that, often ignoring the damage circles and moving where you know to move works best. Speaking of updating server position I have had instances in a trial where we were grouped to pull and instead of being stacked in the group (which i was on my screen) i was about 10m away on everyone else's screen. Had to relog to fix it.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

I don't have a problem with it. I can't light attack weave very well at all though and my parses are horrible. I just stay away from Test Dummies. LOL.

SugaComa

Problem is this game is being driven by the min maxers ... We need a rebellion so the developers start looking at more interesting methods to engage players

Mindless rotations are not about greater skill a monkey can be trained to follow a.linear path to endgame glory in this manner if it's timing is slot on.

Normal modes should be to train you the basic mechanics of the activity

Vet mode should then have some thing built in that analyses the group's ability and adapts to it making the content harder though mechanics so that it become challenging to actually do with out the mindless rotations and animation cancelling

Hard mode should add an additional layer to that challenge

Now I get people will say well people.will cheese it by not triggering certain boss mechanics, week two ways to fix that

Randomised the boss mechanics for each engagement add tiered rewards for every mechanic unlocked during a battle that you win bring back the skill of teams that communicate and adaptation on the fly over those who have just learnt to follow a set path reducing the need for animation cancelling and light attack weaving

Varana

If I understood that correctly, they had a lot more done client-side in the beginning - leading to extraordinary amounts of cheating and tinkering. They pulled almost everything to the server's side (and probably other measures), introducing a lot of lag (esp. in PvP), and have been trying to catch up on that ever since. But to be honest, I'd rather have the current somewhat laggy game than one in which cheats are rampant.
Because when in doubt - everything happening client-side can be open to tinkering with it. I'm currently out of ideas how to exploit client-side bar-swapping, but that is probably only for lack of technical and game-engine knowledge, not because it's not possible. I mean, it could alleviate some issues - but might also bring some unintended consequences with it.