Does anyone else have issue with light-attack weaving on a technical level?

DoonerSeraph

For people who are on PC, there's an addon to track your LA/s ratio.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html

HuawaSepp

PC-EU
ping bouncing from 200 - 400 in the evening with 10 - 20% packet loss.

Got 49 LAs on a 51 sec dummy parse and every skill and barswap worked properly.

Sry but it's not the bad connection.

Numerikuu

Rungar wrote: »

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Weaving with staves is very unreliable. Lighting staves the light attack often turns into an uncontrollable heavy and with the inferno it locks up and doesn't fire or if it does it is a heavy.
It's like the game doesn't understand our imput and thus just does a heavy by default.

sounds like you play with a controller and your light/heavy attack is on the trigger. Change it to another button. The triggers are terrible for this on the xbox/pc controllers.

Mouse and keyboard user here, same for all my stave-using friends. We've had the above issues for a long time. It's not limited to controllers.

Iskiab

Numerikuu wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Weaving with staves is very unreliable. Lighting staves the light attack often turns into an uncontrollable heavy and with the inferno it locks up and doesn't fire or if it does it is a heavy.
It's like the game doesn't understand our imput and thus just does a heavy by default.

sounds like you play with a controller and your light/heavy attack is on the trigger. Change it to another button. The triggers are terrible for this on the xbox/pc controllers.

Mouse and keyboard user here, same for all my stave-using friends. We've had the above issues for a long time. It's not limited to controllers.

Boo, I was going to try changing the light attack to a button hoping this would help. I’m pretty sure at this point it’s something technical that I don’t have a solution for yet.

bellatrixed

The whole concept of having to weave or animation cancel is supremely unappealing to me. I just don't bother. I understand people who want to do the absolute hardest content don't have that luxury, but I seem to kill things just fine even in vet DLC dungeons if the rest of the group is decent. I just can't bother to learn laggy "bug/feature" mechanics. I wish they'd remove it.

wnights

Exactly same here. Play on EU live in Moscow. Most of the times my light attacks just don't register at all ( gets even worse after big updates) I rarely see 40-50k numbers for my dps ( usually when group provides lota of buffs). Parsing gives only 20k lol. I do however kill enemies quickly and have no problem with most vet dungeons so I don't complain too much. I am not after leaderboards or anything but I do want to complete vet content. So far only vet trials are a problem for me but mostly because it's hard to find a group

Vyvrhel

Red_Feather wrote: »

I play capcom games where animation canceling is done well and do fine there... however my hand-eye co-ordination is not good enough to worry about animation canceling in this game. This game's canceling is weird and sketchy at best.

It is not about hand eye coordination, namely on a dummy - it is about getting the proper "beat", however the connection or maybe even server mood plays a significant role here.

idk

KBKB wrote: »

Mate, I'm going to let you in a secret here that people are too fan boi to admit.

PvE in this game is beyond awful, at a time it was just dominated by stupid RnG AoE and one shots required more luck than evasion to survive a fight, regardless of that being the past and they've moved in a better direction for design if you dont have a good ping your DPS will dramatically suffer why have the animation in the fist place if we are meant to clip through them. So why over here in AU where i have 380 ping regularly unless I use Mudfish (another story) should I suffer?

The whole design is incredibly flawed and leaves your toon looking like its a savage. For Sorc I don't even know what the rotation is anymore used to be

WoE>LA>Liquid lightening>LA>Force pulse>LA>Force pulse>LA repeat will hitting your shard procs in between that is so simple, so boring , and so stupid Im taping my mouse between every skill the WoW auto attack skill to name just one is far superior.

So here I am looking my toon has epilepsy and is having a standing fit the way its flailing around and all Im doing it using is using like 3 abilities in the burn phase of a boss feels stupid because of all the performance issues with the game im meant to continue snipping an ability with .2/.3 second margin for error on my ping its not just boring its inefficient I'll ask the question again why have animations if we just snip them off?

In you scenario I can only think of CP allocation or something because we all seem to get stuck on an ability and miss the clip at times DUE TO ITS TERRIBLE DESIGN Or maybe clipping into inefficient spells/skills? I'm not sure.

Rest assured its not just you, I got so annoyed with it I have not PvE'd anything past a normal dungeon in about 3 years I have no idea how to DPS on any toons anymore the thought of pulling 57k DPS on a NB makes me think trash pull because I can't conceive it possible nor on my sorc warden DK or especially templar? what do they even use for damage from class skills short of PoL anymore jabs would be awful single target I thought.

So now I only PvP which comes with issues but I dont have to deliver 1479 light attacks with perfect timing on a flawed premise and game for it.

This guy is clearly not playing the game because they clearly do not like the combat (it affects PvP more than PvE) or they are calling anyone a fanboy who disagrees with them merely because they are challenged figuring out how to weave LAs.

It has to be the case as no one would actually hate the game that much and still play it.

Grega

I live in Alaska, since November earthquake in our area we only get satellite internet 6mb/s downstream. My ping is consistently in 150-200, and my dps decreased from 38k (in wolf hunter - before earthquake we had cable) to 28k, all due to mainly missing LA weave a lot because it just doesn’t seem to proc and there as several occasions when yellow aoe circles get stuck when casting and stay visible after bar swap, so then dw abilities don’t fire till I bar swap and recast aoe dots.

It’s really terrible and by design, I dont understand why parsing on a dummy is taken into so much consideration. If there’s so many issues happening on static rotation inside an empty house with nothing else going on....how can you expect even better results when inside animation heavy trial?

BGs is even another story. I get dps numbers on my screen after my death, death happens so fast that game has not even begun animation of the health bar decrease, it’s like 100% and then the bar wanishes. Not even decrease of health, just gone. And attack animations finally play out once my death recap pops up.

I got some pretty hilarious videos showing this but I have no idea how to upload here lol. Can check my Xbox live GT Grega

p00tx

stelegrega wrote: »

I live in Alaska, since November earthquake in our area we only get satellite internet 6mb/s downstream. My ping is consistently in 150-200, and my dps decreased from 38k (in wolf hunter - before earthquake we had cable) to 28k, all due to mainly missing LA weave a lot because it just doesn’t seem to proc and there as several occasions when yellow aoe circles get stuck when casting and stay visible after bar swap, so then dw abilities don’t fire till I bar swap and recast aoe dots.

It’s really terrible and by design, I dont understand why parsing on a dummy is taken into so much consideration. If there’s so many issues happening on static rotation inside an empty house with nothing else going on....how can you expect even better results when inside animation heavy trial?

BGs is even another story. I get dps numbers on my screen after my death, death happens so fast that game has not even begun animation of the health bar decrease, it’s like 100% and then the bar wanishes. Not even decrease of health, just gone. And attack animations finally play out once my death recap pops up.

I got some pretty hilarious videos showing this but I have no idea how to upload here lol. Can check my Xbox live GT Grega

The yellow AoE circle thing is happening to me on Xbox, with a fantastic internet connection. It's not your internet. It's the broken game. The desync thing has been happening in Cyrodil and BGs for a long time now too. I'm sure your internet doesn't make matters better (likely even worse), but you're not alone in this. The code has been unraveling for a long while now.

DoonerSeraph

I like how animation canceling makes combat feel more fluid and responsive (when the game collaborates, of course). It's a fine concept that I think it needs a bit of refinement.

Not all skills have the same timings after the end where you can launch a light attack, that inconsistency make it a bit hard to learn properly.

And aesthetically I think it could be made better by shortening the animations a bit and putting the relevant part of the animation inside the non-cancellable half, otherwise it makes look like your character is having a spasm of half-attack animations and still somehow dealing damage.

All in all, I think it's not a bad concept and I would prefer it any time over combat systems with things like auto attacks and cooldowns.

ShimmerDoll

I hate it too and don’t do it. I play fighting games too but the concept of animation canceling in this game is unappealing and not only do I not like how it looks, but I don’t like pressing the keys like that over and over. I wish it wasn’t a thing and I view studios who leave bugs like this in their games and than mask it as a feature or mechanic, letting it infiltrate the gameplay for this long ( like the sliding glitch in Titanfall) to be unprofessional and sub-par at development. It really takes away from the immersion I seek in an rpg game and cheapens gameplay for me personally and puts on a level that green light Steam games share. I wish I could find people to play with in this that didn’t care I wasn’t doing this cancel nonsense and that I’m more casual so I could enjoy group content more, but alas that has never happened.

Ohtimbar

I do it for the deeps but I loathe it. It's a perfect recipe for RSI. Irresponsible design. Worsening game performance has resulted in more dropped bar swaps and failed la weaves.

Muzzick

The biggest thing I did to improve my dps was buying a new PC

Kel

I can typically hit 40k just fine..
https://imgur.com/a/07S2YI4

With that said, I hate animation canceling. Any hint of lag, and now especially with lag literally everywhere PvE/PvP, it does nothing but harm your output. Not to mention it looks ridiculous.

Zos keeps saying they want to raise the floor and lower the ceiling. The absolute best way to do that isn't nerfing skills, or classes, but to do away with animation canceling.
Not only will it accomplish what Zos says they want, but would go a long way to squash some complaints some elitists make. This would go a long way to reduce the number of people complaining about carrying "noobs".

But...highly doubt they can, even if they really wanted to.

buttaface

KBKB wrote: »

I must say the responses in this thread are so refreshing, after I typed my reply to the OP I braced myself for the "gitguds/DPS isn't hard bro" people that always come in and trash the joint. So far very mature and warming thank you all.

Another secret about these games and the "gitgud" crowd is that they are mostly composed of people with access to near perfect (free to them) connections in gov, edu and corporate IT departments, etc. where they have all day between service calls to sit around and perfect macros that exploit the obviously broken carpal-epilepsy combat system in ESO.

Then when that's done, they come on the forums and defend their (never ever ever admitted) advantage and macros in what is so obviously broken as a "skill ceiling" and just something one needs to practice.

Playing piano has a "skill ceiling." Learning Mandarin (or English) does. Very few video games do, and this one ain't one of those few.

mairwen85

^ and yet there are people who struggle with it. And those of us with +200 ping who don't. Go figure...

Ping is the round trip, how long it takes for a request to be responded to and received. You don't have to wait on the response. You can learn your window of request timing, it's called practice.

I tried to learn piano, for fun, others can do it, I can't, and as it was meant to be fun, why should I spend hours sat at it... Piano is at fault, nothing to do with skill.

buttaface

mairwen85 wrote: »

^ and yet there are people who struggle with it. And those of us with +200 ping who don't. Go figure...

Personally, I don't struggle with writing macros (or use of extensive combat helper add-ons... erm... "practice"). I just don't do it unless I know where to send the bill. And in a video game? Never.

But I've been working in, with and for entities with IT departments cram full of people on perfect connections with perfect equipment who do those very things, whenever they can get away with it on the company/taxpayer dime all day every day, for 30+ years.

To be crystal clear, my main claim is that "skill ceiling," "practice," etc. retorts in this issue in many, maybe most cases, in this game and others like it, translates into "don't mess with my macro/special, private add-on edge."

mairwen85

buttaface wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

^ and yet there are people who struggle with it. And those of us with +200 ping who don't. Go figure...

Personally, I don't struggle with writing macros (or use of extensive combat helper add-ons... erm... "practice"). I just don't do it unless I know where to send the bill. And in a video game? Never.

But I've been working in, with and for entities with IT departments cram full of people on perfect connections with perfect equipment who do those very things, whenever they can get away with it on the company/taxpayer dime all day every day, for 30+ years.

To be crystal clear, my main claim is that "skill ceiling," "practice," etc. retorts in this issue in many, maybe most cases, in this game and others like it, translates into "don't mess with my macro/special, private add-on edge."

That's one hell of a claim. Baseless and not even anecdotal. You can't besmurge an entire playerbase because you have trouble doing the simple task of pressing 2 keys sequentially.

As I said in an earlier post, gcd is 1second == 1000ms. With a ping of 300,you can request and receive 3x. You just have to press those keys slower than someone with lower latency. Even on 1s, you can send 2x requests, but have a delay on visual feedback. It's all timing, ergo practice.

Even macro authors would have to compensate for that... My ping fluctuates from 180 - 250, should I write a macro with a dynamic variable, or just assume it will always be worst case and hard code at 300? I'd rather learn and retain the ability to play reactively.

I m not saying it doesnt happen, just that it isn't necessary.

As for addons, they work equally for players with high and low latency, would argue more pertinent for the former. Back to your piano analogy, think learning to play with a metronome.

There may be addons out there that perform weaving for you, that I frown on. But again, my point is that it is unnecessary for any player to use.

Minyassa

To be perfectly honest, I tap the button to put a LA in there but I'm not convinced I'm doing it right nor have I ever felt like I was doing it right, but if I mess with it I end up really just second-guessing myself. Because how else do you do a LA but pushing that button, right? So I do it but it's hard for me to make out what exactly is going on with the way that the animations get during a hot and heavy battle. So, ianno. I just do it because I'm supposed to. I felt a lot more confident with HAs, though. Those I had the timing down for.

jcm2606

You can animation cancel fine at even 300-350 ping, I do it all the time. It all comes down to how long you take between the light attack and the skill, if you cast the skill too soon, the light attack will get cancelled completely. If this is happening to you, slow down a little. That's all you need to do.

I had a similar experience except the reverse when I was trying out the Summerset PTS. At the time I was getting anywhere between 280-350 on the live servers, however the PTS had a great 220-250 ping. I'd learned how to animation cancel at 300-350 ping, slowing down to account for the lag, however the PTS allowed me to animation cancel a little quicker than I used to, and it did feel odd. But it worked, my inputs went through and my DPS did rise a little.

Dusk_Coven

KBKB wrote: »

why have the animation in the fist place if we are meant to clip through them.

I'm on PC and my guess would be they can't properly separate keyboard strokes from mouse clicks happening too close together. So they turned it into a feature. Dunno about consoles.
Would be really bad if they based their veteran modes on having light attack weaving.

If Light Attack animation cancelling were actually intended, I would say it's actually for defensive powers when you're flatfooted and need a shield or heal or something, but they don't want to complicate the teaching process by trying to explain which powers will cancel it and why.
If Light Attack weaving were intentional they should do what FFXIV does -- automatically make basic attacks unless you are doing something else.

RavenSworn

Hymzir wrote: »

This is something that has been building for a long time now. I remember a time when 40k dps was considered basically impossible thing to achieve. And now people are talking as if it's the norm. Well, it isn't.

I doubt that the majority of players can achieve even 25k.

And yet, new content is being released as if 60k is a sensible dps check for veteran content.

No wonder people are starting to post more and more on this subject.

It's a culmination of many changes and developments within the game. We are at a point where things start to break down. The divide between what is achievable and what is the norm, is too huge to be ignored.

You can reach truly astonishing levels of damage if you train for it, build for it and optimize for it. But I think the larger portion of the player base is not interested in doing any of that. It is not what they are looking for in a game. And if the game keeps punishing them for just playing the game, taking things as they come, instead of training, farming, studying and optimizing their build, then the game will pressure them to leave and go look for something else.

I've raised this question before, but it's still as relevant as ever: How much practice training and studying is reasonable to expect from your players, until the activity ceases to be fun and entertaining, and turns in to work and a chore.

This didn't use to be such a big issue, since the difference of what was achievable with basic effort (i.e. getting couple of full sets, getting golden weapons, using purple food and a simple rotation and occasional woven LA in the mix), and mastering your build (i.e. using a complex rotation, utilizing animation cancelling, constant weaving, using a meta build), was noticeable, but not game breakingly large as it is now.

With the buff that light attacks received a while ago, the difference between flawlessly weaving light attacks between each skill and not doing so, is like night and day. They are so integral to DPS level assumptions, that the game might as well go full blown auto attack at this point. Why the need for an extra click between skills, if new content is made with the assumption that this will always happen? Just code things so that any skill use also launches a light attack against what ever target you are focusing on. Not doing so is just punishing those with physical limitation or who suffer from latency.

Not that I'd want that though... Since it would change the feel of the game to something that I wouldn't enjoy myself. But something has to be done. A possible option is to try add more difficulty levels for content. I do realize that that would take a lot of effort, but any other option would require a major overhaul of base game systems, and I'm not sure that would go down all that well with the player base. Just look how upset people are about the upcoming race changes.

Fantastically put my friend, well said. And if ZoS is not careful, alot of the newer players would just put this game aside for a more approachable game, one that doesn't require a player to go through hoops just so they can experience the storyline, much like how the current year long stuff is going.

ABuster

sirpz wrote: »

No matter what I do when I parse, half the time I'll get caught up, ill try spamming a skill and it just wont proc, a LA wont go off despite rapidly clicking the mouse (while not even doing any other skill).

And by the way.. stop rapidly clicking the mouse, learn to click it (quiet exactly) every second once. That's eso, not Diablo

rfennell_ESO

Animation Cancelling is fine if you like having to click buttons more than any other mmo ever.

As for the host of "pro"animation cancellers... it's likely all autohotkey at work.

ABuster

and my 5 cents: Since I know many peeps who have a higher ping and still manage Light Attack Weaving and from my experience of players, most ppl are too lazy to learn LAW and make ZOS guilty for their unwillingness or incompetence to learn it. For some players it needs weeks and months (it was months for me) to really play it smoothly in action, but if you reach this level once, its alot of fun. People who say its not fun, just never reach this level and are just grumpy because of it.

yodased

Couple of things

Light attack is set mouse your mouse up not your mouse down so remember that, its not the press that causes the light attack, its the release. Because of contextual light/heavy attack thats how it has to be.

So clicking rapidly isn't actually going to increase speed because the release is the slowest action of the click.

Input lag from peripherals:

If you are using a gaming mouse and are using 1-5 on that mouse, you may have some input lag from it. If you have no input lag from your mouse-up function and a 50ms input lag from your button press on the side of your mouse, that can and will mess up fluid rotations.

Try setting your attack button to a keybind on the keyboard and mess around with the timing that way. It's very evident how much timing affects DPS that way. You can then see the timing of animations and cancels without having to use two input devices which could conflict with timing.

Once you see how the game is "supposed" to work within your specs (machine, internet, latency, lag) you can then introduce a second peripheral to determine if there is input lag and work around it.

TokenIntellect

jcm2606 wrote: »

You can animation cancel fine at even 300-350 ping, I do it all the time. It all comes down to how long you take between the light attack and the skill, if you cast the skill too soon, the light attack will get cancelled completely. If this is happening to you, slow down a little. That's all you need to do.

I had a similar experience except the reverse when I was trying out the Summerset PTS. At the time I was getting anywhere between 280-350 on the live servers, however the PTS had a great 220-250 ping. I'd learned how to animation cancel at 300-350 ping, slowing down to account for the lag, however the PTS allowed me to animation cancel a little quicker than I used to, and it did feel odd. But it worked, my inputs went through and my DPS did rise a little.

Nothing says "immersive" like having to match the rate you weave attacks to the server ping. Because of the way that AC works (literally cancelling the animation), you don't have the visual cue to indicate when attacks proc. Because what you see happening no longer coincides with what is happening, it's awfully easy to lose track of your weaving if, for example, you have a sudden lag spike.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting combat to be fluid and for players to have to think on their feet and react to continuously changing circumstances... I'd just rather those circumstances be in-game, triggered by NPCs and other players, and not by the three greater Daedric princes: Latency, Lag, and Ping.

LiquidPony

buttaface wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

I must say the responses in this thread are so refreshing, after I typed my reply to the OP I braced myself for the "gitguds/DPS isn't hard bro" people that always come in and trash the joint. So far very mature and warming thank you all.

Another secret about these games and the "gitgud" crowd is that they are mostly composed of people with access to near perfect (free to them) connections in gov, edu and corporate IT departments, etc. where they have all day between service calls to sit around and perfect macros that exploit the obviously broken carpal-epilepsy combat system in ESO.

Then when that's done, they come on the forums and defend their (never ever ever admitted) advantage and macros in what is so obviously broken as a "skill ceiling" and just something one needs to practice.

Playing piano has a "skill ceiling." Learning Mandarin (or English) does. Very few video games do, and this one ain't one of those few.

Lol. What a bunch of malarkey.

I raid with people who use satellite internet. I raid with people who live in Australia and Japan and the UK who play on PC/NA. They hit the same range of numbers as everyone else. Hell, one of the officers in my raid guild plays from Japan on a MacBook Pro with an XB1 controller and still hits monster numbers and has cleared all HM content in the game.

Do they have more variance because of ping issues? Of course. That's physics. But they make it work.

But the idea that "most" of the people hitting big numbers have access to free gov/edu/corporate internet is almost certainly the stupidest thing I'll read on these forums this month.

And honestly the reason that so many responses on these threads end up devolving to "git gud" is because y'all do nothing but make excuses. According to the forums everyone who hits big DPS is a no-life neckbeard playing on a supercomputer with a fiber connection using macros and CheatEngine. But the reality is that it's just a matter of practice. And I don't mean "practice" like flailing on the dummy with no plan or strategy. I mean that you have to be methodical about it. Watch other people parse. Have people watch your parse. Record your parses and post them publicly for feedback. Really dig into your CMX reports and figure out where you can improve ... LA rate, buff uptimes, DoT uptimes, CP, execute, etc.

Katahdin

I hate the weaving too. Half the time my LA don't fire/register and I am on a good compter with 100MB internet.

I get good parses in my "training house" when my ping is around 80 ang my FPS is around 90.

In a raid even with settings toned down, the graphics lag and ping fluctuations, the attacks just don't always go off