Does anyone else have issue with light-attack weaving on a technical level?

squinceybones

SugaComa wrote: »

Problem is this game is being driven by the min maxers ... We need a rebellion so the developers start looking at more interesting methods to engage players

Mindless rotations are not about greater skill a monkey can be trained to follow a.linear path to endgame glory in this manner if it's timing is slot on.

Normal modes should be to train you the basic mechanics of the activity

Vet mode should then have some thing built in that analyses the group's ability and adapts to it making the content harder though mechanics so that it become challenging to actually do with out the mindless rotations and animation cancelling

Hard mode should add an additional layer to that challenge

Now I get people will say well people.will cheese it by not triggering certain boss mechanics, week two ways to fix that

Randomised the boss mechanics for each engagement add tiered rewards for every mechanic unlocked during a battle that you win bring back the skill of teams that communicate and adaptation on the fly over those who have just learnt to follow a set path reducing the need for animation cancelling and light attack weaving

I feel like normal trials don't teach the player the mechanics as they're too forgiving. The damage is simply tuned down and in some cases non-existent. Take the twins for example, on normal the colour swap mechanic will just dump you to low hp, on vet you're insta-dead. Players go through avoiding the mechanics because they aren't punished for following them then move onto vet and say well this is waaaay harder. Because it is, you do have to follow mechanics or there's a good chance you'll die.

As for vet modes analysing a group, the issue here is that group A and group B aren't fighting the same fight. They're getting the same rewards, the same achievements, but they aren't doing the same work.

Finally a lot of the rotations are "dynamic" that is they do not follow a set rotation, and you simply re-apply dots as they wear off. Personally that doesn't seem very braindead, more actively engaging and constantly changing in each fight.

Iskiab

SugaComa wrote: »

Normal modes should be to train you the basic mechanics of the activity

Vet mode should then have some thing built in that analyses the group's ability and adapts to it making the content harder though mechanics so that it become challenging to actually do with out the mindless rotations and animation cancelling

Hard mode should add an additional layer to that challenge

The issue with that is most of the vet DLC dungeons have dps checks in them. It’s the foundation of pve, you start small and get the required gear which unlocks harder content.

When I heal a DLC dungeon I do about 10k dps as a healer. If the group can’t hit 60k we struggle.

I have multiple guildies in my social guild that are gated by poor dps. They don’t do vets because they’re stuck at about 10k dps. The group would struggle too much if they went.

PvE needs to be gated by gear, it’s how progression works. It shouldn’t be gated by internet and CPs. Otherwise, what’s the point in improving your gear? Player skill should be an issue yea, but only for trials and DLC vets.

If you don’t like mindless rotations, don’t dps. That’s what being a dps is. Switch to tanking or healing.

kylewwefan

Go buy an ESO house. With nothing in it but a dummy. Maybe 2 dummies. Work on your rotation here for a minute. Should get better.

Nightblade is a tough one. You’re never gonna get good damage without 3 procs. Absolutely must get those light attacks to fire off to proc relentless.

You can pull the trigger as fast you can (or click that mouse) and not get it. Maybe use a metronome? 120 bps. That’s one skill, one light attack per second. It really doesn’t sound that fast right.

Ani Cancelling is a thing, but it’s not gonna jump your DPS like many seem to think it will.

kringled_1

Like the OP, I have a good connection, but I am fairly sure that my weaving leaves something to be desired. On a dummy, I'm hitting about 34k on my stam blade, 25 or so on magicka.
I suspect that my timing is off, and that I have light attacks not going off. But the skill cancel of the la animation removes a lot of the feedback on whether the la happened or not, it's harder for me to tell what's going on. (one of the reasons I do most of my dps on NB is that bow procs do give me more feedback on this than with other classes). One of these days I will end up using the add on to track it, but I try to run as few add ons as I can.

Iskiab

So if I’m going to switch classes and specs because of a poor internet it looks like either stamDK or stamWarden would be best. Neither class is reliant on light attacks for sustain and stam weapons have better animations than staves.

Fire staves are a no go. Any class that uses elemental weapon is a no go too, in trials when I’ve tried using it I’ve noticed I’ve done nothing but spam the ability multiple times and done no damage because my light attacks haven’t fired.

Which of stamDK or stamWarden classes has shorter class animations so lag/internet is less of an issue? Anyone play both and can compare them?

Hallothiel

I just hate the concept of rotations. And the idea that I have to spend precious time in game standing in front of a dummy practising - this is not my job, this is my relaxation!

And rotations don’t really help in trials as much as people make out - you have to be adaptive as bosses rarely stand still in front of you 😝

squinceybones

Iskiab wrote: »

So if I’m going to switch classes and specs because of a poor internet it looks like either stamDK or stamWarden would be best. Neither class is reliant on light attacks for sustain and stam weapons have better animations than staves.

Fire staves are a no go. Any class that uses elemental weapon is a no go too, in trials when I’ve tried using it I’ve noticed I’ve done nothing but spam the ability multiple times and done no damage because my light attacks haven’t fired.

Which of stamDK or stamWarden classes has shorter class animations so lag/internet is less of an issue? Anyone play both and can compare them?

Played stamDK about a year ago but from memory you just do bowbar, then on your DW weave in 2/3 heavies depending on your sustain and how much time you have before bow dots run out. I think i only ever did 2 though because the ping slows the rotation a touch so the 3rd would miss a little bit of bow dots.

Jameliel

mairwen85 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

The original post had nothing to do with animation cancelling.

Indeed -- but that in itself is an issue. Many people confuse the two terms and demonise weaving as an invalid method of play, believing it to be a glitch or exploit. So they pass it off as unnecessary or an unfair advantage.

The real issue here is inconsistency and unreliability of attacks with high ping. As a community we must be able to put our heads together and come up with a viable build or rotation for these scenarios?

prevous post with some linked ideas

Or zos could just do their job, and improve performance. Most of us already do a pretty good job playing around all the slop we are thrown.

Iskiab

kylewwefan wrote: »

Go buy an ESO house. With nothing in it but a dummy. Maybe 2 dummies. Work on your rotation here for a minute. Should get better.

Nightblade is a tough one. You’re never gonna get good damage without 3 procs. Absolutely must get those light attacks to fire off to proc relentless.

You can pull the trigger as fast you can (or click that mouse) and not get it. Maybe use a metronome? 120 bps. That’s one skill, one light attack per second. It really doesn’t sound that fast right

This is a good idea if your goal is to get into a vet trial guild, a bad idea if your goal is to parse as high as possible in game.

Vet trial guilds usually ask for dummy screenshots, so parsing for your screen shot this way works.

If your goal is to improve in game you should be trying to add as much lag as possible to recreate a game situation. Use a full guild house and have people throw mud balls on you. I’ve noticed I parse 25-30k on the dummy, but when I raid with people who’re 50k I’m still 12-15% of the raid’s dps. Dummy parses are good to practice rotations, but if you want to perform well in a raid you need to practice under raid conditions.

nihonseanb14_ESO

I'm curious if animation cancellation/clipping figures into their calculations when building new content fights? Are they thinking 'Tank can do X, Healer can do Y, and DPS will be able to do this much damage by weaving?"

If so that's eventually going to be problematic for people who don't weave, or can't weave well because of lag issues.

max_only

Competitive Dps in this game requires serious hand workouts. That’s why I tank.

Empu

Hallothiel wrote: »

I just hate the concept of rotations. And the idea that I have to spend precious time in game standing in front of a dummy practising - this is not my job, this is my relaxation!

And rotations don’t really help in trials as much as people make out - you have to be adaptive as bosses rarely stand still in front of you 😝

I mean, yes, awareness and knowledge of mechanics will be important. But saying a rotation to maximize DPS output isn't as helpful as people seem to make it, is just wrong.
If you pull 50k+ dps without a rotation i'll agree with you, but you don't.

If you're a good player you can do your rotation AND play the mechanics of a fight.

Ohtimbar

I'm used to these mechanics but I never actually liked them very much. APM is not something I look for in what is at least ostensibly an RPG. More strat and less clicky-clicky would please me and my aging tendons.

StormChaser3000

I don't light attack at all... It just somehow doesn't work for me. Whatever I do it's still between 20-25k on a 3m dummy (pet Sorc, ilambris + juli + necro). I can even solo overland WBs with that character, did vMA, but that dps is not enough for vet DLCs and trials.
I'm going to try to switch gear and rotation later to try to improve that... but so far I do hard content only on my DK tank. I found that tanking works much better for me than attempts to get RSI playing as a DPS...

Mettaricana

I do hate this whole animation cancel meta and the fact the combat makes no sense by that standard

Hallothiel

empu0323b16_ESO wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

I just hate the concept of rotations. And the idea that I have to spend precious time in game standing in front of a dummy practising - this is not my job, this is my relaxation!

And rotations don’t really help in trials as much as people make out - you have to be adaptive as bosses rarely stand still in front of you 😝

I mean, yes, awareness and knowledge of mechanics will be important. But saying a rotation to maximize DPS output isn't as helpful as people seem to make it, is just wrong.
If you pull 50k+ dps without a rotation i'll agree with you, but you don't.

If you're a good player you can do your rotation AND play the mechanics of a fight.

I know - was being a bit flippant as really bloody hate the whole rotation thing! It’s so very very boring and takes a lot of the fun out of the game.

sirpz

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

sirpz wrote: »

I hear more and more, "you should have no issue getting to 40k dps" and I have absolutely no clue how that is the case. The most I've ever parsed was on an Orc Stamblade doing 38k on the PTS, while my usual parse is 30-32k, but still in all my guilds I see people easily scoring 50k+. I know how to DPS, weave/animation cancel with LA, keep up dots, know your rotation, etc, I see I get around 5.3k dps from endless hail and around 4k dps from Relequen, so for the most part thats all good, could use some minor improvements, but whatever. Looking at other people's parses however I see they score 10k+ from light attacks? (more specifically on mag toons). I have no idea how they can pull that off

No matter what I do when I parse, half the time I'll get caught up, ill try spamming a skill and it just wont proc, a LA wont go off despite rapidly clicking the mouse (while not even doing any other skill). Even something as simple as a surprise attack/LA weave, ill end up spamming surprise attacks because my LA wont go off, I need to slow down my rotation to a painfully slow point for me to do anything. Even relentless focus and Relequens, I will be sitting there hitting the dummy with LA and neither Relequen or relentless focus will proc. I have no idea what to do. On top of that it also includes using skills when bar swapping, I'll pop a siphoning strikes and bar swap, only to find out my siphoning strikes actually didn't even pop.

I feel like if I became perfect at this game I could *maybe* hit 40k, but it feels like the game has me capped from going past that point while others race ahead, leaving me behind unable to do harder vet trials. Mag toons are the absolute worst offenders. I cannot even hit 30k on my magblade, I can have a near perfect rotation and solid up times with BiS gear, and I'll still hit 29k on a parse. Sometimes my game will lag and I wont do anything for 3 seconds, only to have every skill I used over those 3 seconds goes off at once.

I don't want it to seem like I'm just whining, but I'm curious if anyone else has had issues like this, because none of my guildies knows whats wrong, some said it was packet-loss, but idk, any fixes?

just for reference, I live in Pennsylvania with solid internet, I've used a wired and wireless connection, I've used 3 different computers and 2 different mouse/keyboards, all the same issue

Your post seems to be genuine so here is some help:
a) 38k on PTS and usually 30-32k is already decent, don't give up and keep learning.

b) Magicka (with staves) builds usually deal 10k+ dps with light attacks - the trick is not to miss any light attacks (try using an addon called "light attack helper" to track the amount of light attacks you do, if you see you miss some light attacks just slow down a bit, practice is everything!)

c) You wrote that your rotation is perfect and up times are solid - perfect rotation is very very important, but there is more to consider: in what order do you cast your skills? Are you applying debuffs first? How do you go into execute phase with your nightblade? - Usually you want to Incap at around 26/27% followed up by a bow proc to have so much burst to reach execute phase and immediately start spamming killer's blade to still benefit from Incap +20% dmg buff and so on.

d) Have you compared your parses with other player parses? You say you get 4k dps from relequen - that's a bit low, so either your relequen up time is not good or your major fracture up time is not good, or your Piercing CP/mundus are not right.
If you have no access to major fracture at all (stam sorc) then 4k dps is fine I guess (don't quote me on that tho, need to compare other stam sorc solo parses in that case!)

There is much more to consider...
Whats your ping and frames by the way? You did not mention that in your first post.


Now to the "get rid of animation cancelling" crier:
You are not going to clear the more difficult content even if ZOS removes animation cancelling. In fact, ZOS could change the whole system and you guys would not be able to clear the hard stuff.

my ping is around 140 and my fps is usually a solid 60, sometimes dipping to 50. And everything else, I'm definitely not perfect at the game, but I like to think I have alot of experience, and 4k with relequen can be higher/lower depending on the parse, but for both relequen and AY, sometimes they just wont stack. ill be using my LA and ill just see relequen and AY tick down and reset for no reason. Combat just feels broken and tedious, I do alot of endgame content, but theres still alot I'm not capable of doing because of my issues, I use the alcast rotation and BiS gear listed so obviously the build has been tested and proven to be able to do stupid DPS in the right hands. I just feel like if people can get 60k with a perfect rotation, I should be able to hit 40k, or atleast 35k easily with a solid one with a few mistakes

And on to mag. oh boy thats rough. It feels like I weave well, but I still only get 3k damage from my LA, even when I switch to the psijic spammable, where my weave is albeit slower, but very consistent, I dont even get past 5k LA (or something along those lines, I havent parsed with that spammable in a while)

KhajiitFelix

KBKB wrote: »

Mate, I'm going to let you in a secret here that people are too fan boi to admit.

PvE in this game is beyond awful, at a time it was just dominated by stupid RnG AoE and one shots required more luck than evasion to survive a fight, regardless of that being the past and they've moved in a better direction for design if you dont have a good ping your DPS will dramatically suffer why have the animation in the fist place if we are meant to clip through them. So why over here in AU where i have 380 ping regularly unless I use Mudfish (another story) should I suffer?

The whole design is incredibly flawed and leaves your toon looking like its a savage. For Sorc I don't even know what the rotation is anymore used to be

WoE>LA>Liquid lightening>LA>Force pulse>LA>Force pulse>LA repeat will hitting your shard procs in between that is so simple, so boring , and so stupid Im taping my mouse between every skill the WoW auto attack skill to name just one is far superior.

So here I am looking my toon has epilepsy and is having a standing fit the way its flailing around and all Im doing it using is using like 3 abilities in the burn phase of a boss feels stupid because of all the performance issues with the game im meant to continue snipping an ability with .2/.3 second margin for error on my ping its not just boring its inefficient I'll ask the question again why have animations if we just snip them off?

In you scenario I can only think of CP allocation or something because we all seem to get stuck on an ability and miss the clip at times DUE TO ITS TERRIBLE DESIGN Or maybe clipping into inefficient spells/skills? I'm not sure.

Rest assured its not just you, I got so annoyed with it I have not PvE'd anything past a normal dungeon in about 3 years I have no idea how to DPS on any toons anymore the thought of pulling 57k DPS on a NB makes me think trash pull because I can't conceive it possible nor on my sorc warden DK or especially templar? what do they even use for damage from class skills short of PoL anymore jabs would be awful single target I thought.

So now I only PvP which comes with issues but I dont have to deliver 1479 light attacks with perfect timing on a flawed premise and game for it.

24 PvP players agreed.

Mintaka5

I don't know either. This whole weaving thing is dumb. I discovered last night that I get more damage output from a heavy attack followed by 2 skills loaded up behind it. Every other rotation that involves light attacks woven into it, are just DPS in the trash. For me light attacks just feel like aesthetic filler. And, holy ***, yes, the poor quality of game performance, especially in PvP, leads to basically ineffective damage. I mean look at who gets kills in this game: mostly BiS meta builds with a concise execute rotation (brute force cookie-cutter stuff), or poison DOT builds. I rarely see someone get burned down on skills or weapons alone. And the trash quality of ESO's infrastructure, code, and performance, unfortunately will never allow for it.

RoyalPink06

It’s also awesome when a lightning staff light attack gets stuck and turns into a heavy attack

idk

sirpz wrote: »

I hear more and more, "you should have no issue getting to 40k dps" and I have absolutely no clue how that is the case.

First. light attacks take practice and Zos clearly feels we all can do it if we want to since they have doubled downed on increasing the damage they do over heavy attacks plus added a skill that specifically wants light attacks.

Second, you should be able to get to 40k or at least close to it without LAs. But again, it takes practice. Those that do very good dps worked and continue to work at it.

Edit: thought I will say that the change Zos made to increase the LA damage and lower the HA damage was during their lower the ceiling and raise the floor phase. The idea was to diminish the disparity between good and less skilled players. This change was quite the opposite as I saw our raid damage did not diminish (ceiling not lowered) but more casuals I ran with did experience lower damage.

Inarre

I can hit 45k solo dps and I still rage at times because my fkn light attacks don't go off, or I get the ground target skill glitch that forces you to dodge roll so you're allowed to cast the skill, or my light attack glitches and somehow turns into a heavy attack... And so on.

Mate if you have anything above 150ping I take my hat off to you.

Hymzir

This is something that has been building for a long time now. I remember a time when 40k dps was considered basically impossible thing to achieve. And now people are talking as if it's the norm. Well, it isn't.

I doubt that the majority of players can achieve even 25k.

And yet, new content is being released as if 60k is a sensible dps check for veteran content.

No wonder people are starting to post more and more on this subject.

It's a culmination of many changes and developments within the game. We are at a point where things start to break down. The divide between what is achievable and what is the norm, is too huge to be ignored.

You can reach truly astonishing levels of damage if you train for it, build for it and optimize for it. But I think the larger portion of the player base is not interested in doing any of that. It is not what they are looking for in a game. And if the game keeps punishing them for just playing the game, taking things as they come, instead of training, farming, studying and optimizing their build, then the game will pressure them to leave and go look for something else.

I've raised this question before, but it's still as relevant as ever: How much practice training and studying is reasonable to expect from your players, until the activity ceases to be fun and entertaining, and turns in to work and a chore.

This didn't use to be such a big issue, since the difference of what was achievable with basic effort (i.e. getting couple of full sets, getting golden weapons, using purple food and a simple rotation and occasional woven LA in the mix), and mastering your build (i.e. using a complex rotation, utilizing animation cancelling, constant weaving, using a meta build), was noticeable, but not game breakingly large as it is now.

With the buff that light attacks received a while ago, the difference between flawlessly weaving light attacks between each skill and not doing so, is like night and day. They are so integral to DPS level assumptions, that the game might as well go full blown auto attack at this point. Why the need for an extra click between skills, if new content is made with the assumption that this will always happen? Just code things so that any skill use also launches a light attack against what ever target you are focusing on. Not doing so is just punishing those with physical limitation or who suffer from latency.

Not that I'd want that though... Since it would change the feel of the game to something that I wouldn't enjoy myself. But something has to be done. A possible option is to try add more difficulty levels for content. I do realize that that would take a lot of effort, but any other option would require a major overhaul of base game systems, and I'm not sure that would go down all that well with the player base. Just look how upset people are about the upcoming race changes.

Draxys

I’m against light attack weaving simply on an IRL physiological basis. My hand aches after a night of dpsing from frantically clicking away like my light attacks are going to save my family from certain death if I fail. It takes so much spamming that is just annoying to do.

ezio45

What is a good ping?

Mr_Walker

Cously wrote: »

1) They weren't intended but the devs were too lazy/incompetent to fix it so became a feature.

Well, it got called a feature, but we all know it's not.

My work around is use DoTs/AoEs on back bar (plus maybe a utility like vigor), main attack/spammables front bar, and then be slow and deliberate. I'll never be a DPS monster, but it works enough to get me through most content I try. 20K unbuffed.

Sadly, 400 ping isn't conducive to vet dungeons/trials though, so I leave those parts of the game alone.

Mr_Walker

jbranstub17_ESO wrote: »

squinceybones wrote: »

As a player, I can do things to compensate. I'm used to it. I often play games that are not intended for my region and I don't blame anyone because that's my fault. I really do think AU got the short end of the stick on this game, though.

Mate, just think of it as the "Australia tax", only in software form.

Sylvermynx

I want to thank ALL of you who have posted questions, problems, suggestions and what you do yourselves. I feel so bad for anyone with high ping (because I am the QUEEN of high ping - 2k + ms.... never gets any lower....)

There's a lot of good info here. I hope it will help me a little, though I'm okay with killing stuff (as long as it's not 3+ mobs!) except on my newly 50+CP warden.... she's HORRIBLY squishy. I didn't know that was going to happen - apparently I missed the memo!

Again, thank you all - this is truly a great community.

klowdy1

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm with the sentiment here what it takes for good dps just isn't particularly fun to do. I can do it, is it fun, no. Like a robotic trained monkey bashing the keys. End game pve was a disappointment for me beyond VMA for that reason.

I'm a story guy. I would love to get trial gear, but I don't need it, because I don't do trials. I do normal DLC dungeons, vet base dungeons, and VMA every once in a while, though not enough to ever get anything useful. I also have my first character finishing zones, and all stories.

PM_1

Aussie Xbox player here, have very similar issues to OP. I hit around 30k dps, light attacks fail, attacks queue up and go off at once....
I love doing the DLC hard modes with my mates (all Aussies) and we struggled for awhile on things like Scalecaller final boss poison waves. The lag would mean that as soon as the AOE showed on the ground, it was too late to move and instadeath. We eventually got used to it and farmed that HM easy now....
We made our dd's werewolves, I run Relequin and AY, it is basically light attacks.... with tank and healer buffs, I hit 53k dps on the dummy, no sustain issues at all. Good times. We just cleared Blackrose for the first time with two werewolf dd's.
For PVP, the only option is to build a cheesy af snipe build.....