Does anyone else have issue with light-attack weaving on a technical level?

Flares

Ignoring the whole ani canceling point of the thread, using vMA bow and good uptime your relequen should be at LEAST 6k, you are doing something wrong there.

endless hail is 7k+ if 80% uptime.

squinceybones

As someone who regularly plays on 300ping with missed weaves, bar swap lag and all that jazz. I'm curious why my gaming experience is so different to yours. I have the same problems, yet different results, how can that be?

NocturnalSonata

get rid of animation cancelling... simple. Defending it, at this point, is to defend lazy design.

mairwen85

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

get rid of animation cancelling... simple. Defending it, at this point, is to defend lazy design.

Explain what you believe it is first, then as a community we can determine whether it is lazy or not.

Varana

The original post had nothing to do with animation cancelling.

mairwen85

Varana wrote: »

The original post had nothing to do with animation cancelling.

Indeed -- but that in itself is an issue. Many people confuse the two terms and demonise weaving as an invalid method of play, believing it to be a glitch or exploit. So they pass it off as unnecessary or an unfair advantage.

The real issue here is inconsistency and unreliability of attacks with high ping. As a community we must be able to put our heads together and come up with a viable build or rotation for these scenarios?

prevous post with some linked ideas

squinceybones

If I light attack, use my liquid lightning, light attack, use wall of elements, barswap, cast curse, light attack, cast crystal frags, light attack, cast elemental weapon. At which point am I "animation cancelling"? The ability doesn't go off until the light attack finishes and I can't light attack again until the ability finishes and the global cooldown of however long expires.

mairwen85

squinceybones wrote: »

If I light attack, use my liquid lightning, light attack, use wall of elements, barswap, cast curse, light attack, cast crystal frags, light attack, cast elemental weapon. At which point am I "animation cancelling"? The ability doesn't go off until the light attack finishes and I can't light attack again until the ability finishes and the global cooldown of however long expires.

on barswap.

Because of your high ping, the input delay makes it seem like skill waits on light attack -- but it doesn't.

squinceybones

Should I only use one bar? I unlock barswap at level 15 it seems silly to waste it.

mairwen85

There are viable one bar builds, yes. There are also Heavy attack rotations which will allow you to queue skills instead of trying to beat the ping.

Did you see the video of the Lagplar I posted? Maybe draw some inspiration from there for a build that fits your playstyle and network issues.

Red_Feather

I think it's because you are using staff so you are finishing the animation of shooting a projectile. The recovery is being cut short. It's not so bad as melee weapons and of course the ugliness of what barswap/bash do to cancel even further.

squinceybones

Well that's the thing, I have the ping, the input lag, yet I enjoy the fast paced light attack builds. I don't have a problem playing with a bit of input lag or whatever seems to be the big issue, I understand it might take... 1-2k off my max dps possible, that's fine. My original question that seems to have gotten lost in the animation cancel *** is, with the same ~300ping, Wifi, hell I'll pick up a controller if it makes someone feel better, why do I not have problems hitting these mystical dps thresholds when we have the same limitations? What's the problem?

To clarify, I understand your point, I'm looking to hear from the people that have problems as to why they think these goals are unreachable when people have shown time and time again that they are.

jbranstub17_ESO

@mairwen85

It is absolutely ZOS's responsibility. From the beginning they marketed and sold ESO to Australian players, but then have not provided an Oceanic server or even a NA server on the West coast.

If >150 ping is not acceptable for playing ESO, then everyone in Australia is unable to play as intended, through no fault of their own. It's not because they chose the wrong ISP or didn't upgrade their computers. It's a matter of distance. Not only that, connection to ESO servers from within the same region they're in is often worse than what you deem acceptable ping. As far as connections to MMOs go, ESO is one of the worst I've experienced.

The game is designed with mechanics that are heavily affected by latency. It is right for people to say that it is not fair if they can't play the game as intended due to their regions' distance from ZOS's servers. If ZOS had no intention of making a playable game for Australians, they shouldn't have sold the game there. They have a responsibility to make sure their game is playable in all markets in which they have released it. Either by creating a server for Oceanic players, or altering game mechanics so they can reasonably compete.

It's great and helpful to offer suggestions to improve high-latency players' experiences, but don't excuse ZOS from their fault and responsibility to rectify this issue. The negativity is warranted. If I lived in Australia, I'd be too.

mairwen85

Ahhh... OK. I got lost in the *** for a bit.

Only answer I got is, 'you tried'. Or just, I dunno.

IwakuraLain42

Maybe an speculation on how TESO probably handles input will shed some light on this topic and maybe help you a bit.

First, the input system will not queue inputs if they are falling outside of the windows where the game accepts said input. Unfortunatly you will get no visible/audible feedback when the game does that.

Secondly, the game has three separate inputs that each run on a 0.9 sec. cooldown (meaning they accept an input every 1 second for that part of the game):
1) Light/Heavy attacks (LA/HA)
2) Skills
3) Block/Barswap

Theoretically you could interweave these inputs freely as long as you would adhere to the 0.9 sec CD of the inputs, but there is one part where the LA/HA and the Skill input systems are connected: animations. Simply put animations are split in a front and tail part, the front end is always rendered (that was introduced some years ago) and in that phase you cannot enter LA/HA (but you can weirdly enough Block/Barswap). It's only in the tail end where you can enter LA/HA's. Unfortunately there is not simple pattern where that split occurs.

This leads to two different consequences regarding weaves/animation cancelling:
1) You start with a LA, this virtually has no front animation allowing you to immediately cast a Skill after that. You them simply keep up the tact of casting a LA and a Skill every second.
2) If you start with a Skill then you have wait for the front part of the animation to render before you can actually cast a LA. This is very hard to achieve and the reason why a lot of weaves are failing.

That is the reason why most guides have the LA *before* the skill. While you can weave the other way around it's harder. And both ways require you to keep a strict tact about your casts which are not easy for everyone.

squinceybones

As someone who plays from Australia with 300 ping I want to know what people think they're so hard done by about. Compared to other games where I notice the difference between 30-50 ping, I think ESO runs pretty damn well at 300 and does a really good job of not making you feel like It's there.

dovakiin5574

Took me over a year to get it right. Don't try to animation cancel. Just do LA > Skill > LA and practice

stevenyaub16_ESO

Animation cancelling/light attack weaving is killing the game.

There's so many players who stopped playing (move into veteran) because they can't do it effectively due to ping, delay, lack of coordination/inability to do so (probably mostly due to this).

I've met so many people in MMOs and DPS in this game has such a high bar to entry that it dwindles down that community so much. Like most other MMOs I'd rather have difficulty be judged with teamwork, communication, positioning and strategy. Things that most people can do with enough encouragement. I've moved onto harder content as a tank and had to leave my friends in the dust.

I don't have an issue with doing this myself, but for me personally this is the first MMO where I've found DPS a chore and a bore to play. There's only one MMO with one class that comes close to this but it's still far lower frequency. There's a reason why no other game uses anything like this... because it sucks.

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

As someone who plays from Australia with 300 ping I want to know what people think they're so hard done by about. Compared to other games where I notice the difference between 30-50 ping, I think ESO runs pretty damn well at 300 and does a really good job of not making you feel like It's there.

I'm not in AU, but I'm about the same distance. 300 ping may not be so bad if it's consistent. At that ping and higher, there's also problems with packet loss, abilities just not firing or things "skipping", ie they happen but aren't shown.

There's also much less time to react to game mechanics. I can stand there at a practice dummy and do pretty well, but if I have to move, block, break free and other things while trying to keep up a rotation, then problems ensue. It's quite common for things to appear like they're going well, then suddenly everything catches up and it's actually not.

The game isn't completely unplayable, but it is noticeably more difficult to play in a high-latency environment. I don't even try to do trials or veteran content. I'm more than likely going to be a liability to my team.

As a player, I can do things to compensate. I'm used to it. I often play games that are not intended for my region and I don't blame anyone because that's my fault. I really do think AU got the short end of the stick on this game, though.

squinceybones

I think 300 ping is 300 ping. I do occasionally get packet loss (wi-fi is a fiend for it and aus internet is nothing to write home about), bar might freeze for a few seconds, you miss 3 weaves and get on with your day. I feel, almost every mechanic is telegraphed in ESO to the point where even at high ping you have time to react. If you're playing in these high ping regions, there's a good chance you have never played ESO at anything else, i'd love to see what the game runs like at 100 ping. But I can't think of a single situation where there isn't an opportunity to react and adapt to the environment, even with higher ping.

The exception of course being banished cells 1 last boss. Everyone knows that's a joke.

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

I think 300 ping is 300 ping. I do occasionally get packet loss (wi-fi is a fiend for it and aus internet is nothing to write home about), bar might freeze for a few seconds, you miss 3 weaves and get on with your day. I feel, almost every mechanic is telegraphed in ESO to the point where even at high ping you have time to react. If you're playing in these high ping regions, there's a good chance you have never played ESO at anything else, i'd love to see what the game runs like at 100 ping. But I can't think of a single situation where there isn't an opportunity to react and adapt to the environment, even with higher ping.

The exception of course being banished cells 1 last boss. Everyone knows that's a joke.

At 300 ping, the game is ok. Not great, but ok. There is also the fact that 300 ping is a good day for most. It's often much higher.

My point is that players in AU should not have to deal with this problem to begin with. The problem is noticeable and it's not fair or reasonable to be expected to have to just deal with it.

mairwen85

@jbranstub17_ESO

So what's the solution then?

What you can do

1. put up and work around
2. play a different game
3. petition your local government for better internet infrastructure and service

What ZoS could do

1. an Australasian mega-server
2. full game redesign

squinceybones

I would like to play ESO, where are their servers located? NA and EU. Am i happy playing at the ping to those regions? Yes - play the game. No - Don't. The wool was never pulled over anyone's eyes, they didn't bait and switch an OCE server. Everyone playing from OCE knew what they were getting themselves into and quite frankly it's far less noticeable than I anticipated. Yes 300 is on a good day, 330 is probably the average I personally get in trials, depending on the time of day ect. I really didn't think we were having a pissing contest of who has the highest ping.

generalmyrick

i do, its dumb.

jbranstub17_ESO

@mairwen85

mairwen85 wrote: »

@jbranstub17_ESO

So what's the solution then?

What you can do

1. put up and work around
2. play a different game
3. petition your local government for better internet infrastructure and service

All things that people currently do. Shouldn't have to, but it is what it is. ZOS made the decision not to support Oceanic regions from the beginning, and they're not the first or the last, unfortunately.

What ZoS could do

1. an Australasian mega-server
2. full game redesign

1. Would be great. Not going to happen, but great.
2. Hardly. All I'm asking for is that current mechanics be tweaked to take high-latency gamers into account. It doesn't take a full game redesign. Removing animation canceling would be a start. I honestly have no problem with the idea of light-attack weaving.

mairwen85

@jbranstub17_ESO

Problem is that now we're back to the fundamental misunderstanding of animation cancelling.

It will not, and does not add a huge increase in dps that warrants doing it for anything other than bar swapping. If you have a really low ping, you might layout your bars such that you swap on every skill. Nobody does AC on every skill, just the known offenders with the longest overrun.

If ZoS shortens all cast animations to 0.9s -- it makes animation cancelling redundant on that too.

However, the reason cast animations overrun the GCD is to allow for a buffer to stop message stacking from input.

Strip that away and your ping problem becomes a bigger one.

jbranstub17_ESO

squinceybones wrote: »

I would like to play ESO, where are their servers located? NA and EU. Am i happy playing at the ping to those regions? Yes - play the game. No - Don't. The wool was never pulled over anyone's eyes, they didn't bait and switch an OCE server. Everyone playing from OCE knew what they were getting themselves into and quite frankly it's far less noticeable than I anticipated. Yes 300 is on a good day, 330 is probably the average I personally get in trials, depending on the time of day ect. I really didn't think we were having a pissing contest of who has the highest ping.

It's cool you are happy with the latency. Some are not. It is understandable and reasonable if they are not.

Obviously, I'm still playing this game after 4 years. I plan my sessions around my latency and avoid certain content when I think my ping will screw with me too much. I have high latency and I deal with it. Everyone who lives in OCE does.

My point is that instead of taking all responsibility for the experience and putting it on the player (The "If you're not happy, leave." mentality), ZOS can keep high-latency players in mind and refine the game to try to make the experience better for all.

ZeroXFF

Here is what ZOS should do (or rather should have done from the start):
1. Put light attacks on the same GCD as skills and treat them as cheap spammables when designing gear or skills around them.
2. Shorten/accelerate long skill animations to match the GCD.
3. Make bar swap client side, so that it's not affected by lag.

These 3 things would solve so many issues...

jbranstub17_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

@jbranstub17_ESO

However, the reason cast animations overrun the GCD is to allow for a buffer to stop message stacking from input.

Strip that away and your ping problem becomes a bigger one.

Then maybe the problem really is game design. Still something ZOS should work on.

squinceybones

If they make the experience easier for high ping players they make it too lenient for regular ping players. In the same way people complain about making content for the 1% of "end game players" how is that any different than altering the content for the 1% of "high ping players". You can't please everyone, you just have to do the best with what you have.