Dungeon DLC doesn't really add much to the game for the "average" player

Odovacar

As long as we're having fun that's all that matters, IMHO, honestly, but...

The problem I see most of the time is the "average" player wants and seeks what the high end players have. The shiny skin, the ultra hard-to-get title/personality...the list goes on.

Some players work hard to develop the skills to obtain hard content clears & achievements ...and then there are the others who get angry and jealous or even lash out when they don't get the help or attention they think they deserve with little to no effort put in from themselves.

Lastly, like some of our older guildie buddies there's the ones who just don't care about doing harder content and normal everything. Like I stated above ...as long as your having fun that's all that matters...once that feeling escapes you from anything IRL or gaming its time to reconsider some things.

mocap

Ask about mechanics before you do your first step in dungeon (already loaded). There is a high chance, trust me, some dude in good mood will explain all critical mechanics to you in a few words.

Rungar

Odovacar wrote: »

As long as we're having fun that's all that matters, IMHO, honestly, but...

The problem I see most of the time is the "average" player wants and seeks what the high end players have. The shiny skin, the ultra hard-to-get title/personality...the list goes on.

Some players work hard to develop the skills to obtain hard content clears & achievements ...and then there are the others who get angry and jealous or even lash out when they don't get the help or attention they think they deserve with little to no effort put in from themselves.

Lastly, like some of our older guildie buddies there's the ones who just don't care about doing harder content and normal everything. Like I stated above ...as long as your having fun that's all that matters...once that feeling escapes you from anything IRL or gaming its time to reconsider some things.

actually its the opposite. It is the elite player that says the game is too easy. The player that weaves that says the game is to easy. The player armed with relequin who uses voice coms and has a premade group. The same team that will go to the pts and master the dungeon even before it comes out.

It isnt possible for zos to challenge you without deserting the vast majority of players. Thats why you had the trials and arenas in the first place. Everyone was fine with that. Zos will literally consume itself trying to keep your attention at the cost of everyone else who wont purchase the material.

ayu_fever

90% of the players cannot beat dlc dungeons on normal.
more like 30% sounds right and that is a stretch IMO.

dlc dungeons are just too hard. leave difficult content locked into veteran mode.
normal mode is for cruising, veteran mode is for sweating.
MEGA NERF NORMAL MODE DLC DUNGEONS ONLY.

i pug normal pledges and randoms on my main (templar tank) a lot and if the random is a dlc my blood pressure spikes.
a CP11 “healer” who spams bow light attcks and doesnt heal and underlevelled/under geared/super casual “fake” dps players just have no business being in there. i bail everytime one pops up because i refuse to waste 3 hours on cradle of shadows and still not finish it. my time is much too valuable for that.

yeah. NORMAL dlc dungeons are a nightmare in pug life.
either mega nerf dlc dungeons to knock them down to base game dungeon difficulty, or remove them from the random playlist.

not everyone has friends or a guild because of reasons, so that solution really isnt “that simple.”

leave veteran and hard mode as they are. those l33t players (and those who think they are l33t) need something to do, and nerfing normal does not affect those players in any way.
we only want normal mode nerfed in all aspects so it doesnt hinder the tryhard experience.

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some insulting and unnecessary comments from this thread. While it is fine to disagree, baiting or resorting to personal attacks is inappropriate. Please keep this discussion civil and respect the opinions of other forum members.

Odovacar

Rungar wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

As long as we're having fun that's all that matters, IMHO, honestly, but...

The problem I see most of the time is the "average" player wants and seeks what the high end players have. The shiny skin, the ultra hard-to-get title/personality...the list goes on.

Some players work hard to develop the skills to obtain hard content clears & achievements ...and then there are the others who get angry and jealous or even lash out when they don't get the help or attention they think they deserve with little to no effort put in from themselves.

Lastly, like some of our older guildie buddies there's the ones who just don't care about doing harder content and normal everything. Like I stated above ...as long as your having fun that's all that matters...once that feeling escapes you from anything IRL or gaming its time to reconsider some things.

actually its the opposite. It is the elite player that says the game is too easy. The player that weaves that says the game is to easy. The player armed with relequin who uses voice coms and has a premade group. The same team that will go to the pts and master the dungeon even before it comes out.

It isnt possible for zos to challenge you without deserting the vast majority of players. Thats why you had the trials and arenas in the first place. Everyone was fine with that. Zos will literally consume itself trying to keep your attention at the cost of everyone else who wont purchase the material.

Do you have issues with the difficulty of this game? The bigger questions is are you still having fun? If you answer yes, who cares what others say or think about the game you love. Enjoy my friend.

Rungar

what im saying is that given the existence of trials and arenas and hardmodes, perhaps vet dungeons dont need to be designed for the top players but maybe the next tier down.

Nebthet78

Tandor wrote: »

Although I have no interest in group dungeons, let alone veteran ones, I have no problem with that content being provided each year for those who do enjoy them. However, making them two-thirds of the year's DLC releases seems overkill to me, and for the life of me I don't understand why ZOS don't add at least one delve to dungeon DLCs so as to broaden the appeal of them. Any ongoing main storyline could then be tied to the delve that most people would play rather than to a dungeon that fewer people would play.

I for one would have loved to see more involved Public Dungeons players can either solo or team up with a friend and then have the story quests in there, rather than in DLC Dungeons. Then people don't have to worry about using the broken as F group finder and can do the content at their own pace without being rushed along by others.

A lot of the Public Dungeons are beautiful little areas that are nice to take your time and explore and they don't get enough credit in this game.

As for the new DLC Dungeons, I think ZOS needs to sit back and take a look at the numbers on both PS4 and XBOX vs the numbers they are seeing on PC. If they are making these dungeons so hard that those on the consoles don't want to complete the content, then they need to rebalance things across all platforms to make it a bit easier.

If as someone else said, they are trying to use these dungeons to get more people into trials, then they are going to be sadly disappointed. PLAYERS hate Vet Cloudrest!! They call it the guild killer (among many PC guilds). There is a reason for that. Players want more interesting mechanics, not overload on mechanics with little wiggle room for error and add a DPS check in there too, that cause you to continue to beat your head against the wall if each member isn't pulling 45+k dps.

Players who used to be in trials guilds but got cut out because of the light attack meta and numberous nerfs and can no longer compensate for that difference in their game-play is part of the reason why we are seeing the Trials scene in ESO continually getting smaller and smaller. When you make DPS checks so high, that guilds are requiring 35+k dps to even be allowed into a run, or if your group dps is so high that you can sell runs for 10million gold... there is a clear and fundamental problem in the way the game is being balanced.

Remove or lower some of those DPS checks, and while it might take a guild with lower dps (20k-30k) a bit longer to complete the Vet (nonHM) trial, they at least will know they can do it reliably and can work towards doing it faster and better for leaderboard runs, though most of these players, would just like to complete the content while having fun with friends.

But when you only have the same players reaching the leaderboards with little to no competition, other than with themselves, then you have balanced the game incorrectly. You want more players to enjoy the content, not less. But these players will fight tooth and nail to keep the difficulty set to a level where it is unobtainable by the majority of players.

And yes, there is a huge gap, between players who can do normal and veteran content. So much so, that normal dungeons are too easy for them, but Vet are too hard. Either way, that is a different topic of discussion.

But, putting storyline components within 4 man DLC dungeons shouldn't be done. They should have been placed within Public Dungeons. This is why we are seeing a rally call for Storyline mode in said dungeons. At least with Public Dungeons we would get an interesting areas that players can do at their own pace to get the story. Not having to group up with other players who don't care about the story and just want to rush through things.

Juju_beans

There are several types of players in this game. The DLC's are varied as well so that all groups eventually get a DLC that caters more to them.

Be glad that ESO supports all these various groups. I don't do dungeons so these dungeon DLC's don't mean much but there's always something in them for those that don't do dungeons. Did you go to one of the new dungeons and get your hat ?

A game that caters to only one type of player will eventually lose all the other types because of lack of ongoing new content.

felipeceles

I like doing dlc dungeons. Once you get your character to a good capacity, the non dlc dungeons get super easy, and well, having to do achievements on dlc dungeons kinda gives you a reason to do them, you might also get motifs on last bosses (on vet). Skins and personalities are cool for me, and it all depends on playstyle... some people dont like dungeons at all, so there are story-based dlcs. They need to make content to all playstyles.
About the dlc dungeons, they are NOT getting harder, actually. The 2 new DLC dungeons (non-hardmode AND hardmode as well) are easier than wolfhunter's. And wolfhunter's HM are easier then dragonbone's.

Uryel

Facefister wrote: »

The new DLC dungeons are way easier than the Wolfhunter ones and you get the skin by just clearing the easier one on vet. WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

Areas to explore. Stories. Hidden secrets behind a tree or a rock that I will stumble upon because I got lost. An NPC in the middle of nowhere that has a funny quest for me. Interesting characters1 that I will look forward to encounter again in the next DLC.

What can I say, in Dr Bartle Taxonomy of Player Types, I'm over 80% explorer.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I agree with a lot of the sentiments being presented here.

I don't get why Zenimax pushes these DLC dungeons so hard when things like delves and public dungeons would appeal to a broader number of players. The number of DLC dungeons that kill pugs is getting kind of ridiculous.

That being said, I finally did the two wrathstone dungeons last night, albeit on normal. They weren't too bad honestly, but I can pump out 25-30K dps and kinda carry groups as well. The main point is that they're backing away from oneshots, so even casuals can kinda white-knuckle their way through most things.

By far the most frustrating boss was the lazer centurion. You have to use the shield as cover, while rotating in a direction opposite the source of the lazer. My first group did it OK, my second group I was often the only player alive.

My point is that I THINK Zenimax is at least becoming self aware of this difficulty wall they've created. By all accounts, these wrathstone dungeons are easier than wolfhunter, which is a step in the right direction. However, there are still outliers like the lazer boss. Also the stone keeper was kind of frustrating the first time, it's easy to miss what Thraya or whatever is saying and she's the only one giving you an idea as to how the fight actually works. Skeevatrons were also really frustrating and I had to figure out through trial and error.

The skeevatrons having an introduction phase is kinda pointless if you don't understand what she's saying in the introduction. Use plain English, not fantasy terms. "Hey, this is the central battery. You need to charge your skeevatron here then go find the source at the end of the energy trails and blow them all up." That would have sufficed. What we got was like a paragraph of fantasy garble that I could barely hear over the background noises.

I think that if Zenimax explained things better, a lot of these problems might actually go away. The actual difficulty seems to be going down, we just need better direction on some of the more esoteric mechanics they're throwing at us that aren't necessarily difficult, but unclear.

My stance has always been and will be that dungeons should not be as difficult as ZOS is making them nowadays, either on normal or veteran. I'm old school, I think dungeons should lean towards casual and only give them a taste of the raiding experience, not a full course. However, I'm happy to see some progress and I think these dungeons will see much higher completion rates than Wolfhunter or FH/BF.

Cireous

I have to say, after running both Wraithstone dungeons, there are a ton of backpacks in one of them and an overwhelming amount of scattered urns in the other. I have seen some pretty cool furnishing recipes dropping as I secretly spy on everyone's loot. Considering this, I may just run these dungeons for... gulp... fun this time.

DaveMoeDee

mocap wrote: »

Ask about mechanics before you do your first step in dungeon (already loaded). There is a high chance, trust me, some dude in good mood will explain all critical mechanics to you in a few words.

The first time I did MoS was pugging a random vet. I wasn't the only first timer. One person in group paste in mechanics from Marshmallow's discord. It was really helpful. The dungeon ended up being pretty easy.

jbOblivion

The main turn-off for me is the ever-increasing one-shot mechanics being added to (new) dungeon content, as well as untauntable bosses and DPS checks. Trying to learn tanking recently has been difficult; you need to play the content in order to learn and gain experience about it (videos only teach you up to a point), but get removed from various (impatient) groups because you don't know the content etc, i.e. catch 22.

Please let there be either a reduction in difficulty for normal modes, or perhaps a solo mode like what is done for the Molag Bal questline along with (voiced) companion NPCs, e.g. Abnur Tharn, or just have them as public dungeons (Kogoruhn was great), so that we can experience the stories and ambience of the dungeons, which are always very interesting and compelling environments.

Also more inventive achievements please, like finding the cure in Scalecaller Peak, rather than "complete dungeon in vet mode while (insert almost impossible combat task here)".

Hard content is great for experts and twitch/youtube streamers showing off their gaming prowess, not so great for average/semi-casual players like me.

phantasmalD

Faulgor wrote: »

b) Change the second group dungeon in dungeon DLCs to a public dungeon. Public dungeons are ridiculously underdeveloped, when they offer the best free-form combat in the whole game.

This tbh. I personally have no big problem with Group Dungeons but having some more casual dungeon delving would be cool. Especially since there all these locked up caves and houses everywhere, especially in Morrowind, teasing you about all the cool cave diving you could do. Like those ancient Dunmer Strongholds, Dwemer and Daedric ruins.

Delves and Public Dungeons arguably require even less work than Group Dungeons since you don't really have to devise all those fancy, elaborate OHK moves and fights, while offering pretty much the same rewards; grindable collectibles, some achivements, nice scenery and a little story.

karekiz wrote: »

I have no idea why people think the content is unfairly divided. We get:
2 DLC dungeon DLC
1 Chapter <Raid + Major quest area>
1 "Quest" DLC - Usually comes with "X" to fill some endgame gap <AS for a trial for one slot weapons / BRP for DSA 2.0>

So quest/open world get 2 content <and argueably the biggest content update> focused - Dungeons get 2 - Trials are filled in. Its quite even between the gaps. You can argue that someone who likes dungeons can do all the above, but the same can be counter said. Normal even MHK can be duoed. If you feel your DPS isn't "up to snuff" for normal then don't worry, it most likely can be carried without you <Regardless if you think thats "fair" or not isn't the point>.

2x Dungeon DLC - Medium group content (PvP (Battleground maps) and PvE (Dungeons))
Chapter - (Extra) Large solo & Large group content (Trials)
Zone DLC - Small solo & Small/Medium group content (Arena/Mini trial)

Chapters, while quest and exploration driven, still offer something that's explicitly geared towards group-players while the opposite isn't true, so you can't really say it's 'fairly divided'.
But it's not even really about fairness imo. Not having an explicit hook to pull in the casual single player crowd is just a bad idea businesswise, you're just senselessly narrowing down your market.
Making these DLCs 1 Group+1 Public or 2 Group + 1/2 Delve(s) or adding a mega-casual story mode or something would offer some value to those super casual people who are just uninterested in 'gitting gud' or in group content in general. Which would mean that they might actually buy these DLCs or sub for a month.

Also, a casual story mode would solve that issue where you get kicked out of a dungeon before you could turn the quest in because your group disbanded.

Additionally, with this 4+ group content/year release schedule I think they are going to get exhausted creatively really fast. For every dungeon they know need to create elaborate, distinct fight, new sets and new motifs, so there is some incentive to slow down a little and spend resources on something a bit more casual.

ALSO! Nobody is talking about the real problem: As of today Urgarlag caught up to the others and offers the same amount of pledges as Glirion and Maj. Arguably more if you consider the Part 1 and 2 thing that vanilla dungeons have going on. As time goes on poor Urgarlag will have more and more work to do, keeping tab on all those new dungeons and making sure she sends the adventurers to the right dungeon, while her colleagues can laze about all day never having to learn anything new. JUSTICE FOR URGARLAG!

Dubhliam

I agree with your estimates.

However, I would like to point out that a good MMO game should always have content players should aspire to.
It's what keeps you going.
When players get to a point where they can do everything, and nothing challenges them that is the point players lose interest and find a new game.

I know this might not be true for all players, but the game should not be designed for the lowest common denominator.
Time and effort is required to progress in the game, and that is exactly the kind of players ZOS wants in their game:
those that input time in it, and squeeze the ESO+ subscription.

Odovacar

Dubhliam wrote: »

I agree with your estimates.

However, I would like to point out that a good MMO game should always have content players should aspire to.
It's what keeps you going.
When players get to a point where they can do everything, and nothing challenges them that is the point players lose interest and find a new game.

I know this might not be true for all players, but the game should not be designed for the lowest common denominator.
Time and effort is required to progress in the game, and that is exactly the kind of players ZOS wants in their game:
those that input time in it, and squeeze the ESO+ subscription.

Very nicely said!

SteveCampsOut

Frankly, I've been playing since Beta. I was an ESO+ Subscriber up to November of last year. I've bought the DLC's that I enjoy which are Orsinium, Imperial City, Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. Beyond those I've bought the expansions. There isn't a single DLC Dungeon that has been released that appealed to me in any way shape or form and since dropping my ESO+ I no longer have to worry about being placed in que for one of those asinine dungeons in random normal modes anymore. I don't miss it! The ONLY feature of ESO+ that I honestly still care about but don't miss because I have 3 accounts with ample storage is the craft bag! For that I just wait for free weeks and fill up my bags at that time. ZOS has shot itself in the foot with it's cheaper and cheaper rewards like a free hat for this new dlc? A Free Hat?!? Seriously? That's not going to get me to sign back up to ESO+!

D0PAMINE

I get pulled into content that I likely wouldn't choose to run on my own. Meh, its fine though.

TheNuminous1

Malprave wrote: »

Can’t speak for the “average” player whoever they are. As for myself, the DLC dungeons are the content I enjoy the most. There are only a few ways to challenge yourself in this game and honestly I’m a little surprised that this one is always the subject of so much controversy. I feel that any nerfing or elimination of the DLC dungeons would be very bad for the health of the game.

Would it really be bad for the health of the game?

Seeing as someone just laid out the percent of people that have completed these dungeons it seems to me they could remove them completely and the majority wouldn't be effected.

LittlePinkDot

Transairion wrote: »

Having any new content is nice of course, but dungeon DLC really doesn't give us much to replay and for paid DLC (ESO+ or Crown) it doesn't offer much:

One basic lore quest per dungeon (one and done)
Sets (do normal a couple of times, Veteran at least once for Monster set)
Fluff cosmetics/titles (most locked behind Veteran Hard Mode grinding)
Achievements (almost all of them are Veteran+)


Forgive me for pulling numbers out of my rear thin air but as far as the majority of players go:

Normal DLC Capable: ~90%

Veteran DLC Capable: ~30%

Veteran HM DLC Capable: ~5% or less

Since their inception dungeon DLC has only got harder and harder, lowering the amount of players who can clear them even more. Having hard stuff is perfectly fine, we all hate ourselves play for the challenge after all... but it really does seem like almost all the content in Dungeon DLC is "top player" content. That's really not a lot of players in the grand scheme of things, especially when the point of DLC is to sell it to make money.

I don't know, ever since Imperial City (first? DLC dungeons + PvP zone) dungeon DLC has just seemed like something you do the first few days and Joe Schmoe gets his sets and is done with it, as only "better players" can access the rest of the DLC's content in the form that it is. It hasn't appealed to me ever, and now knowing that ZOS is invested in 2 Dungeon DLC a year (out of 4 content drops total) it just feels like a whole lot of waiting for next to nothing: I really think Dungeon DLC needs to be expanded on to include more.


Only my opinion

A new battleground map with every dungeon dlc would be nice.

karekiz

phantasmalD wrote: »

Chapters, while quest and exploration driven, still offer something that's explicitly geared towards group-players while the opposite isn't true, so you can't really say it's 'fairly divided'.

Yes I can, because it is.

phantasmalD

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

A new battleground map with every dungeon dlc would be nice.

That's pretty much already a thing.
The update for Horns of the Reach added the Arcane University, Dragon Bones had Mor Khazgur and Deeping Drome, Wolfhunter included Istirus Outpost and now Wrathstone came with Eld Angavar.
Tho I think they are not tied to the DLC but rather are base game additions. Still, ZoS does add a new BG map every time they release a dungeon DLC.

karekiz wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Chapters, while quest and exploration driven, still offer something that's explicitly geared towards group-players while the opposite isn't true, so you can't really say it's 'fairly divided'.

Yes I can, because it is.

Thank you for that well thought out, super convincing counter argument. And that you totally didn't ignore the actual crux of my argument.

MikaHR

Uryel wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

The new DLC dungeons are way easier than the Wolfhunter ones and you get the skin by just clearing the easier one on vet. WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

Areas to explore. Stories. Hidden secrets behind a tree or a rock that I will stumble upon because I got lost. An NPC in the middle of nowhere that has a funny quest for me. Interesting characters1 that I will look forward to encounter again in the next DLC.

What can I say, in Dr Bartle Taxonomy of Player Types, I'm over 80% explorer.

No time for that s*it man, have to SPEEDRUN OR KICK!

Yup, dungeon DLCs are worthless to 99,9% of playerbase

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

MaxJrFTW

Then stop being average and do some dlc dungeons.