Dungeon DLC doesn't really add much to the game for the "average" player

lokulin

Emma_Overload wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I'm an average player. I do 1-3 hours a day. A trial on the weekend. My dps main does ~35k, and I appreciate and enjoy dungeon dlc. I like the upscaled difficulty, new gear, extended mini stories and just generally having more to play/beat.

I don't think this thread speaks for me. Can't speak for other average players - - do you mean average as majority player base, or average ability?

Honestly I don't think an "average" player exists in ESO. The player base seems very diverse and everyone has different ideas of what activities are fun and worthwhile in the game.

Perhaps average is the wrong word, but you could definitely profile players in to categories. Perhaps without calling them an "average" player there is definitely a quantifiable large chunk of players that don't get value from the DLC dungeons. If players are not getting value after a while they will stop paying. That can't be good for business.

Loves_guars

I would gladly trade 1 dlc dungeon for a free update with base new game features and fixes.
Or add free veteran dungeons that are at base game difficulty.

klowdy1

I like the new dungeons a lot. Since dungeons are my main endgame, along with OW completion, I love it when dungeon DLCs come out.

Ertosi

Aimora wrote: »

Feel the same - I rarely do the dungeons after the 1st times - it used to be a QoL/new area DLC Q1, Chapter Q2, Dungeon DLC Q3, region DLC Q4, now it’s dungeon, chapter, dungeon, region; which isn’t as much fun and feels like the q1 is just a fill in DLC now

Last year's Q1 was still pretty meaty. Last year wasn't just the 2 new dungeons as it also included a new major system (Outfitting), Home Storage, and 2 new battlegrounds instead of just 1. It's only this year's Q1 that feels like just a fill in.

Nemesis7884

i think dungeon dlc is fine but i wished they work it more into the story of the story dlc...it should be a dungeon themed around the story and i'd also love for them doing a story mode and a dungeon mode - similar to how gw2 does it... story mode is super easy and with a bigger focus on story whereas dungeon mode is what we have now - little/no story just to run through efficiently

Ertosi

SirAxen wrote: »

There is usually a host of QoL stuff with each Dungeon DLC as well. So, Wrathstone update isn't going to be 'just' two dungeons.

It'll have a little, but no where near as much as usual Q1 releases. Wrathstone is the lightest first quarter we've seen in years content-wise. See my post immediately before this one for more details in the spoiler tag.

Hotdog_23

Yes I do all content but I don’t consider myself average. Not because I am a super great awesome player, just average at best with skills but I do generally play a few hours a day or sometimes all day when off work. I figure the average player only plays whenever new content comes out and when done with it they take a break until more stuff comes out. In fact I believe ZOS said something along those lines once before.

New content (and balance changes) comes every 3 months which helps the game stay fresh. Personally I think they are doing a good job of catering to everyone and not just the average player, hardcore player, PVE player and PVP player but everyone. So not every release is going to be for everyone per say but you can do it if you want too.

My 2 cents

madarame_77

DLC, as far as I see it, is end-game content. Average player takes at least a year to get to that cp/gear/skill wise. That's why the numbers are low. I enjoy every dungeon DLC we have so far. Yesterday I pugged vet Mazzatun. Was really hard. Half of the group (including me) didn't know the mechanics. Spent more than two hours and had to change a healer eventually. I already had the monster mask from gold vendor, so I was doing it just for fun. And it was fun! So I don't regret every $ I spent on it.

KyraCROgnon

I like the challenge those new dlc offer, but i still feel like having half the new content be dungeons is too much.

Before they introduce a new area dlc, there always is some introductory quest line. some really good, some meh grind (Murkmire i look at you...) , but it's always nice to have some outdoor quest with new stuff . Maybe add something similar for dungeons DLC , to at least give players some way to place them in the whole lore, and make more people eager to try them ?

I'm also frustrated at the lack of new, not limited time _ crown only houses.

And use those dungeons dlc, who have to be less work than a whole new zone, to get your developpers to work on some game stability / qoL issues !

agegarton

I agree with the OP.

I have been put off pretty much all of the new dungeon content. It’s all too grindy, samey, and just boring. Dungeons add nothing for those who prefer to play solo, and lately they have become pretty intense - not casual player friendly.

Dungeon DLCs feels like the cheap way of delivering a promise. Effectively - in reality - there’s one new DLC every year included with the subscription.

I was kind of OK with that back in the days when Orsinium was included. Now we have paid for “chapters” though, it all feels a bit like a con job.

Jamdarius

Well for me dung dlc got only story value, DLC dungeons are always 2 long for my liking, I might do vet if guildies need somebody as "4th slot" and nobody is willing.

I run same setup on my main Dunmer MagDK for more than a year, maybe even 2 years and so far it never failed me (Skoria, Sun Set, BSW) so I do not rly feel need to change anything and it is a pain to try and make "2nd main" although I got mag warden for PvP however but I also got same setup since a bit ago for it (for PvE with it and PvP).

Faulgor

I think my preferred compromise, as ZOS is unlikely to change their development cycle radically (let's face it, dungeon DLCs are cheaper to make), would look something like this:

a) Add a higher difficulty mode for overland content. No need to go into details because there have been many suggestions over the years how to do this, but ideally it would be tied into new interesting rewards like achievements, titles, dyes, costumes, furnishings, etc.
b) Change the second group dungeon in dungeon DLCs to a public dungeon. Public dungeons are ridiculously underdeveloped, when they offer the best free-form combat in the whole game.

This would mean that we would still get the originally planned 2 new group dungeons per year, while also offering more for "average" players in dungeon DLCs with more accessible public dungeons, including story quests, new areas to explore (although not a full zone), and possibly new motifs to farm. Additionally, with a higher difficulty setting, public dungeons might become a worthwhile activity for more advanced players as well. New public dungeons for base game zones would also help to explore areas that don't have new zones to look forward to, namely High Rock and Valenwood.

The only issue I can see is that currently, public dungeons are part of chapter updates.

MikaHR

Monsieur wrote: »

Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter.

No wonder those are included for "free" with ESO+ as absolutely no one would do them otherwise.

Imagine if they didnt force ESO+ subscribers to take part in them - 0,01%

In fact i would GLADLY take some other perks OR reducton in ESO+ cost for removal of these "free dungeon DLCs" as we can see they are certainly NOT an ESO+ incentive for 99,9% of playerbase.

Or they make a SOLO mode.

I think they made a WRONG turn and are trying to "popularize" this worthless "dungeon DLCs" by shoving main STORY in them - a BIG mistake and will just make 99,9% feel even more neglected and angry when they finally find out whats going on.

eklhaftb16_ESO

Really, dungeon DLCs feel like a cheap cop-out to keep the quarterly DLC tempo without having to do much work. The achievement stats posted before seem to suggest that dungeon DLCs are only played by about 1-3% of players. For the rest of us, those DLCs aren't worth their weight in guar poo.

One stat that particularly caught my eye was this: 0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal. See, I got PUGed into normal March of Sacrifices when I foolishly tried to do Undaunted event with my ESO+ active. Decided to go with it, against my better judgment. Knowing nothing about the dungeon and wearing only very basic purple Julianos / Mother's Sorrow combo, I finished it on the first try without dying, and didn't do bad damage either. Not the top one, but still better than the tank and healer.
It isn't hard to do, everybody who gives any attention to their surroundings should be able to finish it. There's no reason why only 0.7% of people would be able to finish. Unless...
...unless they don't even want to bother. Honestly, I wouldn't blame them: it took ages, it was kinda boring, and the drops weren't really worth the time spent.

Maybe, one of the dungeon DLCs might be replaced by an "overland enrichment" update that would revisit and flesh out the existing game areas. There's still tons of buildings (and possible delves) locked out because the devs didn't have time to finish them. There's still entire Sheogorad waiting to be finished. Every Q1, we could have a half a dozen or so delves, some new world bosses, some new interiors for thieves to rob, some new quests added to existing zones.... instead, we get two dungeons that are played by 1% of players. :P

MikaHR

0,2%-0,1% for lastest ones.

Now imagine whats the stats for raids

LiraTaurwen

DLC Dungeons are great and alot of fun! I can't see what's the problem here, you get an expansion with a new zone and a zone dlc, which makes it 50/50 in terms of solo versus group content.

I doubt that only 1% of the players do these dungeons if that were the case ZOS wouldn't be realeasing new ones all the time. They certantly have better data and know better what players really like otherwise (from topics like this) this would be a single player game...

When I joined this game it amazed me the amount of content it has, I think it has something for everyone and everyone can have a great time in it and the content is fairly distributed... however coming to the foruns there are topics complaining about dungeons every week. Why?
I can't help but feel that some people want it all and it has to be their way.

MikaHR

Maybe insane power creep from raid gear that is screwing up the whole game?

Maybe they are wasting their resources for 0,1% of playerbase while others 99,9% that have no interest in it are paying for it?

Not even Blizzard could make making raids financially viable.

And it doesnt stop there, because of miniscule interst in these dungeons, now they are stuffing main STORY in them screwing 99,9% of playerbase. Ask SWTOR how that worked for them.

Want more?

LiraTaurwen

MikaHR wrote: »

Maybe insane power creep from raid gear that is screwing up the whole game?

Maybe they are wasting their resources for 0,1% of playerbase while others 99,9% that have no interest in it are paying for it?

Not even Blizzard could make making raids financially viable.

And it doesnt stop there, because of miniscule interst in these dungeons, now they are stuffing main STORY in them screwing 99,9% of playerbase. Ask SWTOR how that worked for them.

Want more?

Again.. if it really were only 0.1% of the playerbase I doubt they would be creating new dungeons. I highly doubt that.

zaria

Ertosi wrote: »

Aimora wrote: »

Feel the same - I rarely do the dungeons after the 1st times - it used to be a QoL/new area DLC Q1, Chapter Q2, Dungeon DLC Q3, region DLC Q4, now it’s dungeon, chapter, dungeon, region; which isn’t as much fun and feels like the q1 is just a fill in DLC now

Last year's Q1 was still pretty meaty. Last year wasn't just the 2 new dungeons as it also included a new major system (Outfitting), Home Storage, and 2 new battlegrounds instead of just 1. It's only this year's Q1 that feels like just a fill in.

Granted not all details are known. Outfit system was added with an dungeon dlc, transmute with CWC.
That if you wrote the 2018 summary 1 year ago it would also be a bit thin, but probably thicker than this year, then did we know we got jewelry crafting?

Killum

I see absolutely no reason why these Dungeons can't be released with an optional, normal, solo mode and a normal group mode included.

This would open up the game to those who do not normally do dungeons on hard or vet mode.

This would of course also mean more people might buy these packs. It would also help keep a lot of players interested in the game as a whole.

Androconium

TL;DR

No-one is playing the hist dungeon DLC, whatever it's called.
As a result, there is very little Leviathan Scrimshaw around to make Matazzun writs.

We thought this one through.

(I finally rememebered the name)

MikaHR

LiraTaurwen wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Maybe insane power creep from raid gear that is screwing up the whole game?

Maybe they are wasting their resources for 0,1% of playerbase while others 99,9% that have no interest in it are paying for it?

Not even Blizzard could make making raids financially viable.

And it doesnt stop there, because of miniscule interst in these dungeons, now they are stuffing main STORY in them screwing 99,9% of playerbase. Ask SWTOR how that worked for them.

Want more?

Again.. if it really were only 0.1% of the playerbase I doubt they would be creating new dungeons. I highly doubt that.

Its pointless endevour and "its a MMO so it haz to have dungeons...and raids!"

Even WoW losing money on those. And now desperate move to stuff main STORY in them...just to pi** off 99,9% of playerbase....just shows theyre not paying for themselves.It will backfire so badly.

Guess why they are "free" with ESO+....but have 0 added value for 99,9% of playerbase.

All the motifs, all the OP gear and monster sets (insane power creep that is screwing up the whole game BTW) STILL didnt manage to increase participation.

Rungar

i feel they dropped the ball on the dungeons. They are ghost towns and pretty much wasted dlc. You can cry about skill all you want but at the end of the day no ones doing this content and everyone knows it.

very badly designed.

LiraTaurwen

MikaHR wrote: »

Its pointless endevour and "its a MMO so it haz to have dungeons...and raids!"

Even WoW losing money on those. And now desperate move to stuff main STORY in them...just to pi** off 99,9% of playerbase....just shows theyre not paying for themselves.It will backfire so badly.

Guess why they are "free" with ESO+....but have 0 added value for 99,9% of playerbase.

All the motifs, all the OP gear and monster sets (insane power creep that is screwing up the whole game BTW) STILL didnt manage to increase participation.

The main story is not in them, at least not in the sense that you can't complete the story if you don't do the dungeons. It's just a side part of the story, I think it's nice that instead of these new dungeons having a different story it somehow ties to the overall theme and narrative of this year updates.
Why people constantly separate players into playstyles? Some people love dungeons and also questing, this is not all black and white and I would argue that most players fall into this category and try a bit of everything, if it was not the case this game would be a solo game and there would be no need for servers and game could run without lag and fps problems etc!

Nemesis7884

I think the issue is that a lot pf the dungeons are not related to the other dlc and dont have a compelling story...i think its much better the way they approach 2019

sigsergv

I've never been in ANY DLC dungeon after Shadow of the Hist DLC. I'm very casual player so veteran difficuly is basically locked and normal difficulty is not possible too because I need to explore each dungeon, read every note, listen to every NPC and it's almost impossible to find group for that. So I just ignore DLC dungeons as they don't exist.

Also I hate 3rd party tutorials and guides, I really want to discover dungeon mechanics by myself, and that makes them 150% impossible.

Stebarnz

Just like real life!
Hard things are hard and people who don't put effort in cant do them.

Run 4 min mile, hard but doable.... quick jog over the road as a car comes, easy!
Dead lift 250kg, hard but doable.... lift a bag with shopping in, easy!
Plot a re-entry angle for a space shuttle, hard but doable.... daily sudoku, easy!
Vet HM trials, hard but doable.... overland mob, easy!

If you put time and dedication in to something you will improve, don't give me the 'I haven't got time or I'm a casual player' because my answer will be, since when can anyone expect to be top 5% in anything when having a casual effort attempt at it.

Tabbycat

I think regular dungeons would be more fun if we could run through them and randomly group up with others along the way like you can with Public Dungeons. I bet ZOS would see more participation that way. Public Dungeons are fun.

agegarton

Stebarnz wrote: »

Just like real life!
Hard things are hard and people who don't put effort in cant do them.

Run 4 min mile, hard but doable.... quick jog over the road as a car comes, easy!
Dead lift 250kg, hard but doable.... lift a bag with shopping in, easy!
Plot a re-entry angle for a space shuttle, hard but doable.... daily sudoku, easy!
Vet HM trials, hard but doable.... overland mob, easy!

If you put time and dedication in to something you will improve, don't give me the 'I haven't got time or I'm a casual player' because my answer will be, since when can anyone expect to be top 5% in anything when having a casual effort attempt at it.

I think you're confusing your real life with a game - a game that people play for enjoyment. You might want to play a game that includes lots of hard knocks and extreme effort, but personally I log on to get away from that. And no-one here is asking to be a top 5% player for nothing (or at all!). In fact, the more I read your post, the more I think you're a troll.

dimensional

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.