Dungeon DLC doesn't really add much to the game for the "average" player

Transairion

Having any new content is nice of course, but dungeon DLC really doesn't give us much to replay and for paid DLC (ESO+ or Crown) it doesn't offer much:

One basic lore quest per dungeon (one and done)
Sets (do normal a couple of times, Veteran at least once for Monster set)
Fluff cosmetics/titles (most locked behind Veteran Hard Mode grinding)
Achievements (almost all of them are Veteran+)


Forgive me for pulling numbers out of my rear thin air but as far as the majority of players go:

Normal DLC Capable: ~90%

Veteran DLC Capable: ~30%

Veteran HM DLC Capable: ~5% or less

Since their inception dungeon DLC has only got harder and harder, lowering the amount of players who can clear them even more. Having hard stuff is perfectly fine, we all hate ourselves play for the challenge after all... but it really does seem like almost all the content in Dungeon DLC is "top player" content. That's really not a lot of players in the grand scheme of things, especially when the point of DLC is to sell it to make money.

I don't know, ever since Imperial City (first? DLC dungeons + PvP zone) dungeon DLC has just seemed like something you do the first few days and Joe Schmoe gets his sets and is done with it, as only "better players" can access the rest of the DLC's content in the form that it is. It hasn't appealed to me ever, and now knowing that ZOS is invested in 2 Dungeon DLC a year (out of 4 content drops total) it just feels like a whole lot of waiting for next to nothing: I really think Dungeon DLC needs to be expanded on to include more.


Only my opinion

CMDR_Un1k0rn

I suppose it's how you look at it. Personally I only do normal content, as I'm really not a competitive person anymore.

I'm alright with the model as it is, but that's solely my own opinion and I speak for nobody but myself.

Still, if that 90% able to complete normal is accurate, then I'm fine with it.

karekiz

K

Clockwork/Murkmire added a story. I only do clockwork on alts because the nice 150% free XP booster. Murkmire I don't bother.

Kiralyn2000

I'm pretty sure ZOS has usage data on how much each DLC's content is used & completed. They have some idea which types of DLC (and which development expenses) are worth making.



(Personally, I've only bought story DLC. And I've only done a handful of non-DLC random normals, because of an event. But I don't generally do dungeons or raids in any of the MMOs I solo. /shrug)

Kali_Despoine

So what you are saying is that the average player...
Can't be bothered with learning mechanics
Can't be bothered to grind for gear that will help them past hurdles
Can't be bothered to learn animation clipping
Can't be bothered to fail and try again
Needs things handed to them on silver platter

Even though I am in a top, end game guild [Biohazard] I like to pug Dungeons and raids
This sharpens my skills
Figure out new tactics
teach other players who want to learn
Most of the time makes a hard dungeon harder

Sure I could go in w/ friends and guild mates and beat any dungeon within minutes
Or I can go in for a challenge

I have meet so many people and helped them through what they say are hard dungeons
They change their mind after we beat the socks off it.

Knowledge is power
Those who don't want to learn will forever be weak

PS4 Dead_Corps/Lucky_Gargoyle
Yes 2 accounts twice the builds and twice the grind.
Do I use meta on each toon? Why no I don't
Do I test dummy my builds? I haven't tested any builds since Blood Spawn was the go to test for DPS.
To test my builds I enter random vet dungeon finder. If my build is weak enough I will leave group and go back to the drawing board.

[I DO NOT WEAR PvP GEAR IN PvE nor do I use PvP CP amd skills in PvE and visversa]
Most of you might want to do this.

Paazhahdrimaak

I believe they should release a zone for every dlc, I agree with this post. Two dungeon dlcs a year is BS, as you pointed out only a small percentage actually do most of the stuff from the dlc dungeons or even ever run them at all. They should release pieces of the map every quarter and as they do it slip the dungeons in.
Dungeons are fun, but none of them merit their own dlc.

BlazingDynamo

MMOs aren't for the "average" player. [removed baiting comment].

Faulgor

I think it would already help if they released the motifs with each dungeon DLC right away, and you didn't need to run vet HM for a guaranteed drop. It's just cosmetics after all, you can't get more casual than that, and it feels a bit too unforgiving to lock it behind some of the hardest content in the game.

MagicalLija

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

Can't be bothered to fail and try again

I agree with you on the rest, but especially with dungeon finder people tend to just quit after their first wipe.I hope they do something with a better finder where people can find groups easier

FierceSam

There’s a reason why they are free for ESO+ subscribers. I find it hard to believe they sell a whole load of them.

If they didn’t force subscribers to take part in DLC content, they’d never fill any random DLC dungeon groups

I can’t say I’ve played any of them more than half a dozen times.

I find the biggest issue by far is that the normal versions in no way prepare you for the vet ones, they don’t teach the machanics and there is no real progression to them. They are getting better at that, but they’re not fun for puging

They are easier and less resource intensive to develop than story content and cater for the developer’s wish to appease the top end.

Aimora

Feel the same - I rarely do the dungeons after the 1st times - it used to be a QoL/new area DLC Q1, Chapter Q2, Dungeon DLC Q3, region DLC Q4, now it’s dungeon, chapter, dungeon, region; which isn’t as much fun and feels like the q1 is just a fill in DLC now

Ogou

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

So what you are saying is that the average player...
Can't be bothered with learning mechanics
Can't be bothered to grind for gear that will help them past hurdles
Can't be bothered to learn animation clipping
Can't be bothered to fail and try again
Needs things handed to them on silver platter

Even though I am in a top, end game guild [Biohazard] I like to pug Dungeons and raids
This sharpens my skills
Figure out new tactics
teach other players who want to learn
Most of the time makes a hard dungeon harder

Sure I could go in w/ friends and guild mates and beat any dungeon within minutes
Or I can go in for a challenge

I have meet so many people and helped them through what they say are hard dungeons
They change their mind after we beat the socks off it.

Knowledge is power
Those who don't want to learn will forever be weak

PS4 Dead_Corps/Lucky_Gargoyle
Yes 2 accounts twice the builds and twice the grind.
Do I use meta on each toon? Why no I don't
Do I test dummy my builds? I haven't tested any builds since Blood Spawn was the go to test for DPS.
To test my builds I enter random vet dungeon finder. If my build is weak enough I will leave group and go back to the drawing board.

[I DO NOT WEAR PvP GEAR IN PvE nor do I use PvP CP amd skills in PvE and visversa]
Most of you might want to do this.

I think you missed the point. It's not just about dungeon DLC being hard it's about them only catering to a specific part of the community. Zone DLC and expansion still come with new trials and and arenas for the competitive type but there's not much reason for anyone else to buy the dungeon DLCs though.

Zathras

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

Needs things handed to them on silver platter

With all due respect, I stopped reading right there. You've entirely missed the point of his thread (did you read it?) and slapped your own bias on what he was communicating.

There have been a couple of threads on this already, and the community is always torn on the sides that the players fall on.

Thread 1 (where my comment below comes from), and another similar thread.

Having a Normal version that has a reasonable level of difficulty for the 90% of the population that doesn't regularly complete Vet and Hard Mode isn't too much to ask for.

The people who want exponentially challenging content can still have that. Continue to make Vet and HM reflect the needs of that community.

Having a Normal mode in new DLC's that reflects the needs of the other community (the larger percentage of the playerbase) doesn't take away from the former group. There isn't a loss here. It's about accessibility.

I don't understand why the Vet/HM crowd needs to pipe in and say, "Git good" when the subject matter of this thread has nothing to do with them, since they don't do Normal mode to begin with.

(and, yes, I did read your entire post. however, stopping at and quoting that snippit summed up your message)

Kiralyn2000

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

So what you are saying is that the average player...
Can't be bothered with learning mechanics
Can't be bothered to grind for gear that will help them past hurdles
Can't be bothered to learn animation clipping
Can't be bothered to fail and try again
Needs things handed to them on silver platter

Even though I am in a top, end game guild [Biohazard] I like to pug Dungeons and raids
This sharpens my skills
Figure out new tactics
teach other players who want to learn
Most of the time makes a hard dungeon harder

Sure I could go in w/ friends and guild mates and beat any dungeon within minutes
Or I can go in for a challenge

I have meet so many people and helped them through what they say are hard dungeons
They change their mind after we beat the socks off it.

Knowledge is power
Those who don't want to learn will forever be weak

Not everyone plays games for the same reasons, or in the same ways, or enjoys the same things.

Not everyone is a "challenge" gamer interested in throwing themselves against the next mountain in order to conquer it.
Or sees everything as a competition to be won.
Not everyone is looking for "power" and using games to try not to be "weak".


Just a thought. /shrug

Monsieur

Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter.

AcadianPaladin

Primarily a solo PvE player here and I have a fairly short list of dungeons that I'm interested in. And I'm pleased that there are dungeons that meet my taste for fun and elegant runs. That said, and not complaining, but not a single DLC dungeon is of any interest to me. I have no qualms or ambiguity about what I enjoy and what I do not. Happily, there is so much content in ESO that there is plenty for everyone I figure.

Malprave

Can’t speak for the “average” player whoever they are. As for myself, the DLC dungeons are the content I enjoy the most. There are only a few ways to challenge yourself in this game and honestly I’m a little surprised that this one is always the subject of so much controversy. I feel that any nerfing or elimination of the DLC dungeons would be very bad for the health of the game.

VaranisArano

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

MMOs aren't for the "average" player. [removed baiting comment].

I should think its fairly obvious we're talking about the average ESO player.

Now, as for what content the average ESO player does or doesn't run, that data belongs to ZOS and they haven't shared it.

In any case, the DLC dungeon packs are pretty clearly aimed at the end-game player who wants progression from the base game dungeons. Again, how large a percentage of the player base actually runs/completes them on a regular basis is data that ZOS has and hasn't shared.

In any case, I suspect the real question is: "What's the cost to profit ratio of DLC dungeon packs compared to other types of DLC?"

And the answer is "Good enough for 2 of the 4 yearly DLC to be dungeon packs."

Raammzzaa

I enjoy the dungeon DLC a lot personally, and I think I’m a pretty average player. They are enjoyable on normal mode, and challenging on Vet - at least for me. Also, I have ESO+ so I have access at no further cost. I really look forward to them, myself.

SirAxen

There is usually a host of QoL stuff with each Dungeon DLC as well. So, Wrathstone update isn't going to be 'just' two dungeons.

Tapio75

Those dungeon DLC's have never given me anything.

I dont like the dungeon runners mentality that much and those couple rare friends i have, play rarely.

What i would like is to have solo tory mode for all of those. All of the fluff and cosmetic items should be available for that mode, i do not care about actual gear, titles or such.

Why would veterans need cosmetic stuff to reward vet mode? If i did those, accomplishing the harder version would be reward enough, but thats just me. Those fluff items should be available to everyone regardless of playstyle.

Red_Feather

it's hard to find people to do even DLC dungeon pledges

Korah_Eaglecry

Dungeons provide an extension to endgame content that is easier to build than Trials. And while there are plenty of players that will never finish the base game and its overworld content, or the many that will take forever to do so. Plenty of players have made it to the endgame, play regularly and will still need content to keep them busy between major releases and Trials. This means that Dungeon DLCs are imperative to keeping the veteran players logging in and engaged with the content.

Basically, not every release is for you. Sometimes, maybe even often times its for someone else.

Agenericname

Malprave wrote: »

Can’t speak for the “average” player whoever they are. As for myself, the DLC dungeons are the content I enjoy the most. There are only a few ways to challenge yourself in this game and honestly I’m a little surprised that this one is always the subject of so much controversy. I feel that any nerfing or elimination of the DLC dungeons would be very bad for the health of the game.

I feel the same way about the DLC dungeons. They're my favorite content in the game, but, I don't disagree with OP's request either.

Danikat

I agree that dungeon DLC doesn't add much, that's why I never buy them.

I don't mind doing dungeons but I do them so rarely that it doesn't seem worth buying more of them. I said during the Undanted Event when people were talking about the difference between base game and DLC dungeons that maybe I should try them during the next ESO+ trial because they might be more interesting than I realised, but I completely forgot about that until I was writing this post.

I wonder if that's why they've tied the new one directly into the Elseweyr story - trying to give another group of players (those who are interested in the story) another incentive to do the new dungeon.

DaveMoeDee

They aren't going to be expanded to zones because ZOS can't deliver on that schedule. We get 2 dungeon DLC a year because they are much cheaper and easier to make. It isn't because they want to deliver that many dungeons. Think how long it was post-launch before they added a single DLC dungeon.

It is a cheap way for them to deliver new content every quarter.

Tapio75

VaranisArano wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

MMOs aren't for the "average" player. [removed baiting comment].

I should think its fairly obvious we're talking about the average ESO player.

Now, as for what content the average ESO player does or doesn't run, that data belongs to ZOS and they haven't shared it.

In any case, the DLC dungeon packs are pretty clearly aimed at the end-game player who wants progression from the base game dungeons. Again, how large a percentage of the player base actually runs/completes them on a regular basis is data that ZOS has and hasn't shared.

In any case, I suspect the real question is: "What's the cost to profit ratio of DLC dungeon packs compared to other types of DLC?"

And the answer is "Good enough for 2 of the 4 yearly DLC to be dungeon packs."

Well, i think most MMO's today are for less skilled players. They are so easy to begin with and once you know the repetitive mechanics on harder content, they become too easy as well.

Royaji

Monsieur wrote: »

Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter.

Those numbers of course look mighty scary but how about we do not try to bend reality to our wishes and normalize them to some fairly common achievement that shows the percentage of players who actually bothered to play the game and not only created a character and left? Say "Level 50 Hero"?

typos

FrancisCrawford

Malprave wrote: »

Can’t speak for the “average” player whoever they are. As for myself, the DLC dungeons are the content I enjoy the most. There are only a few ways to challenge yourself in this game and honestly I’m a little surprised that this one is always the subject of so much controversy. I feel that any nerfing or elimination of the DLC dungeons would be very bad for the health of the game.

The controversy stems in large part from the fact that people seem to really want the rewards for running random dungeons, and hence participate in a system that, rewards aside, is ridiculous.

And then they complain about various ridiculous aspects of the system.

Monsieur

Royaji wrote: »

Monsieur wrote: »

Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter.

Those numbers of course look mighty scary but how about we do not try to bend reality to our wishes and normalize them to some fairly common achievement that shows the percentage of players who actually bothered to play the game and not only created a character and left? Say "Level 50 Hero"?

typos

Well, you’d also have to normalise ZOS’s 10 million stories, just to play it fair.

Edit: 12.3% Have the level 50 hero

Malprave

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

Can’t speak for the “average” player whoever they are. As for myself, the DLC dungeons are the content I enjoy the most. There are only a few ways to challenge yourself in this game and honestly I’m a little surprised that this one is always the subject of so much controversy. I feel that any nerfing or elimination of the DLC dungeons would be very bad for the health of the game.

The controversy stems in large part from the fact that people seem to really want the rewards for running random dungeons, and hence participate in a system that, rewards aside, is ridiculous.

And then they complain about various ridiculous aspects of the system.

I feel like we are getting a little off topic but you pretty much nailed it here. I have just never understood why people want the reward for running random dungeons. The rewards are a joke. I know somebody will jump in here and say they want the XP probably but with all the ways to farm that why bother.