Dungeon DLC doesn't really add much to the game for the "average" player

Pevey

I think it would be awesome if ZOS skipped the new dungeons for a while and used that capacity to add some Harvest Moon-like elements to ESO, like Hearthfire did for Skyrim. This would undoubtedly be a challenge to balance in an MMO, but if they weren't spending time on more useless (IMO) DLC dungeons, they would have the time to figure out a way to do it. I know a lot of the people I play ESO with would much prefer Harvest Moon-like elements to another DLC dungeon, and they would be willing to pay for it.

Ertosi

Rungar wrote: »

i feel they dropped the ball on the dungeons. They are ghost towns and pretty much wasted dlc. You can cry about skill all you want but at the end of the day no ones doing this content and everyone knows it.

very badly designed.

And yet we're seeing the max CP freeze now because of the few players that do those harder DLC dungeons and complain they're too easy.

I would have much preferred seeing a harder mode added to dungeons to appease the elite minority. Either way, I feel like capping CP "for the foreseeable future" was premature and will only lead to stagnation; it should not have been capped until they had their solution planned. Knowing ZOS, we'll be stuck in this lack-of-further-vertical-progression-limbo for far too long.

dimensional

No need to skip new dungeons to add new content. It isn't a zero-sum game in that respect. Every single year ZOS adds new "gameplay" elements to the game that are 100% independent of DLC updates, so they do this anyway. And yes as a matter of fact they have explicitly mentioned in the past about adding gardening mechanics to player homes.

Ertosi

dimensional wrote: »

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.

I'm with the OP. When weighing the pros and cons of dropping my ESO+ sub, no longer having to worry about any DLC dungeons when doing my daily randoms was a huge plus!

Edit: They added nothing for me other than a skill point each for doing their story quest. That and the occasional one that has gear I'd actually like to have. But those things are easy to get fast and after that, they become completely ignored content for me, the average player.

Sevalaricgirl

Agree, I do not buy any dungeon DLC (even if I wasn't a sub I wouldn't). My group does vet dungeons all the time but we have people who are not subscribers so why buy it, plus it isn't really balanced for normal vet players.

dimensional

Ertosi wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.

I'm with the OP. When weighing the pros and cons of dropping my ESO+ sub, no longer having to worry about any DLC dungeons when doing my daily randoms was a huge plus!

That sounds like a HUGE negative to me, IMO. Not playing DLC dungeons is missing out on a ton of content, oh well I guess you must like running the same boring dungeons over and over?

Starlock

dimensional wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.

I'm with the OP. When weighing the pros and cons of dropping my ESO+ sub, no longer having to worry about any DLC dungeons when doing my daily randoms was a huge plus!

That sounds like a HUGE negative to me, IMO. Not playing DLC dungeons is missing out on a ton of content, oh well I guess you must like running the same boring dungeons over and over?

You know what's really boring? Having to wait 15 minutes to que because folks quit the instant they land in a DLC dungeon. Or going through 15 minutes of the dungeon only to have the good players get fed up and quit after one wipe, resulting in disbanding the entire group. Or just in general having to spend 30-60 minutes in one dungeon.

EmEm_Oh

Stebarnz wrote: »

Just like real life!
Hard things are hard and people who don't put effort in cant do them.

Run 4 min mile, hard but doable.... quick jog over the road as a car comes, easy!
Dead lift 250kg, hard but doable.... lift a bag with shopping in, easy!
Plot a re-entry angle for a space shuttle, hard but doable.... daily sudoku, easy!
Vet HM trials, hard but doable.... overland mob, easy!

If you put time and dedication in to something you will improve, don't give me the 'I haven't got time or I'm a casual player' because my answer will be, since when can anyone expect to be top 5% in anything when having a casual effort attempt at it.

You make a good point, but this is an mmo, not something based in reality (explanation coming).

In reality, I would think the extra time and effort of doing exercise pay off exponentially, due to physical health and so forth. For completing a dungeon on Vet, you MIGHT get a drop you want. If not, you gotta do it again. And let's say you do get that drop. Month or two later, it's nerfed due to screaming Simpsons Mobs who can't PvP.

So, I'm adding a more realistic add-on. Let's say you do all the exercise to get to a 4 min mile. But then some God says up in the clouds..."YOU ARE TOO FAST. I AM NERFING YOUR SPEED. I AM ALSO MAKING YOU A LITTLE CHUBBIER, AND SQUISHY."

Ertosi

dimensional wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.

I'm with the OP. When weighing the pros and cons of dropping my ESO+ sub, no longer having to worry about any DLC dungeons when doing my daily randoms was a huge plus!

That sounds like a HUGE negative to me, IMO. Not playing DLC dungeons is missing out on a ton of content, oh well I guess you must like running the same boring dungeons over and over?

Did you just assume the type of content I run?

RaddlemanNumber7

I was finished with the new Wrathstone content inside one hour of it being patched. Got an Ayleid hat for my collection. My Argonians have a Murkmire noise machine in their yard. My Breton lady has a fancy new tea pot. Job done.

Ye_Olde_Crowe

I buy (and play) the story DLCs for the story . I tend to buy the dungeon DLCs for the mounts and pets and usually enter a dungeon once so I get the easy cosmetic item associated with it, if there is one.

The rest, well... if it weren't for those easy-to-get items, I wouldn't get any dungeon DLC at all as the DLC dungeons usually are too difficult for me even on normal mode, and I don't enjoy min-maxing/chasing meta builds etc.
I'm just there for the fluff and the feels.

Uryel

Transairion wrote: »

dungeon DLC has just seemed like something you do the first few days and Joe Schmoe gets his sets and is done with it

Hey, I consider myself a "Joe Schmoe", if I understand you well. Look, I'm the kind of guy who wants the Bosmers stealth bonus back because I'm more interested in stealing sh*t and avoiding combat than getting whatever set there is in some dungeon.

Actually, I even rule out dungeons when I gear my characters. If something can only be obtained by farming dungeons (or arena, or whatever), I consider it nonexistent. Maybe I'm even "under average Joe Schmoe", then.

Basically, I have no interest in dungeons, for a number of reasons.

The first being the need to find 2 additionnal team mates (I usually play with my wife), and having no guarantee they'll be decent players. I'm not talking skill level here, I'm talking about people in here for the fun, not to rush the dungeon as fast as possible, who can bear a death or two, and whatnot.

Then, I'm an old timer, and simply put I miss the time when dungeons where not instanciated as they are now. back in the old days, "dungeon" described what people would call in ESO "public dungeon". Bosses were alot harder, of course, but basically anyone could stumble upon your fight and lend you a hand... Or train the boss in the next room upon you Not always a fun situation, then, but it felt more natural, less forced.

And finally, talking about forced... Artificial mechanics that we've seen since WoW made them the norm has killed whatever remaining interest I may have had for dungeons. "When the boss reaches 75%, take two steps back and hide behind the rocks or you're dead", and that sort of things... Pff. Disconnect your brain, don't analyse, just know the strategy by heart and go with it. Almost as boring as the so called "Elite" missions in the first Guild Wars, that merely needed to bring specific skill sets or else the party wouldn't be able to complete it.

So, yeah. Dungeon DLC don't bring much for the average player. For "not even average" like me, they actually bring nothing at all.

MikaHR

Numbers dont lie

"Just some stats from PS4 trophies.

4.5% of all ESO PS4 players have cleared all DC base game group dungeons, 4.4% for AD and EP group dungeons at least on normal.

2.6% have cleared Mazzatun and 2.4% have completed Cradle of Shadows at least on normal difficulty.

1.6% have completed Bloodroot Forge and the same number have completed Falkreath Hold on at least normal difficulty.

1.4% have cleared Scalecaller and the same number have cleared Fang Lair on at least normal difficulty.

0.7% have cleared March of Sacrifices on at least normal, and 0.6% have cleared MHK on at least normal difficulty.

When you start looking at the completion rates for both dungeons on veteran in each pack, you’re at 0.5% for Shadows of the Hist, 0.2% for Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones, and 0.1% for Wolfhunter."

witchdoctor

MikaHR wrote: »

Numbers dont lie

But taking things out of context is worthless.

As mentioned before, your 'stats' are not what you try so very hard to present them as.

FierceSam

sigsergv wrote: »

I've never been in ANY DLC dungeon after Shadow of the Hist DLC. I'm very casual player so veteran difficuly is basically locked and normal difficulty is not possible too because I need to explore each dungeon, read every note, listen to every NPC and it's almost impossible to find group for that. So I just ignore DLC dungeons as they don't exist.

Also I hate 3rd party tutorials and guides, I really want to discover dungeon mechanics by myself, and that makes them 150% impossible.

There are guilds which do cater for the ‘want to explore/quest dungeons’ vibe and it’s worth seeking them out. That said there is precious little questing to do in DLC dungeons before the opening and closing bits of dialogue.

Re mechanics, I couldn’t agree more. Part of the fun and challenge of DLC dungeons is working out the mechanics and ZOS do an awful job of enabling this (other than repeated learn by dying, which gets old really quickly). As an example the ‘drag boss over body of dead shock warden’ mechanic in Moon Hunter Keep is almost impossible to discover for yourself so it kills PUGs. Part of the whole point of the normal mode should be to enable a group to discover the mechanics themselves, but instead they become burnfests as DPS always trumps mechanics.

Wrathstone continues this with inexplicable mechanics in DoM and easy burns in FV. Although I quite liked the laser beams, because it was clear how they worked and the challenge was avoiding them while also killing the boss and his ads.

Rungar

It seems like they are trying to use the dlc dungeons to get people into trials which in this game i believe is catastrophically short sighted.

zaria

LiraTaurwen wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Its pointless endevour and "its a MMO so it haz to have dungeons...and raids!"

Even WoW losing money on those. And now desperate move to stuff main STORY in them...just to pi** off 99,9% of playerbase....just shows theyre not paying for themselves.It will backfire so badly.

Guess why they are "free" with ESO+....but have 0 added value for 99,9% of playerbase.

All the motifs, all the OP gear and monster sets (insane power creep that is screwing up the whole game BTW) STILL didnt manage to increase participation.

The main story is not in them, at least not in the sense that you can't complete the story if you don't do the dungeons. It's just a side part of the story, I think it's nice that instead of these new dungeons having a different story it somehow ties to the overall theme and narrative of this year updates.
Why people constantly separate players into playstyles? Some people love dungeons and also questing, this is not all black and white and I would argue that most players fall into this category and try a bit of everything, if it was not the case this game would be a solo game and there would be no need for servers and game could run without lag and fps problems etc!

This, its about finding the Wrathstone. The redguard lady is paid by an benefactor to retrieve them.
Is the Khajiit the same as in the movie? fur color is very different?
Will do the quest with the Redguard again on an alt since its years since I did it.

Found the new dungeons cool, loved the skever phase

SydneyGrey

I just hate that they included the Wrathstone story-line in these dungeons. People will rush through, you won't get to actually experience the story, and people who have a hard time doing difficult dungeons won't be able to do it at all.

Bad move on ZOS's part. They were so proud to say their Elsweyr/Wrathstone story-line would last all year, but don't care that a lot of people wouldn't get to actually experience this first part of it.

Literally the only way you can do it is if you screenshot all the dialogue super fast so you can read it later.

Commancho

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I just hate that they included the Wrathstone story-line in these dungeons. People will rush through, you won't get to actually experience the story, and people who have a hard time doing difficult dungeons won't be able to do it at all.

Bad move on ZOS's part. They were so proud to say their Elsweyr/Wrathstone story-line would last all year, but don't care that a lot of people wouldn't get to actually experience this first part of it.

Literally the only way you can do it is if you screenshot all the dialogue super fast so you can read it later.

Story in the dungeons LOL

Tandor

Although I have no interest in group dungeons, let alone veteran ones, I have no problem with that content being provided each year for those who do enjoy them. However, making them two-thirds of the year's DLC releases seems overkill to me, and for the life of me I don't understand why ZOS don't add at least one delve to dungeon DLCs so as to broaden the appeal of them. Any ongoing main storyline could then be tied to the delve that most people would play rather than to a dungeon that fewer people would play.

Facefister

The new DLC dungeons are way easier than the Wolfhunter ones and you get the skin by just clearing the easier one on vet. WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Facefister wrote: »

The new DLC dungeons are way easier than the Wolfhunter ones and you get the skin by just clearing the easier one on vet. WHAT. DO. YOU. WANT?

Ok so, I know it’s hard for you to understand and grasp but: what might seem easier to YOU won’t seem so easier to others.
Just saying.

Malprave

dimensional wrote: »

I disagree 100% with the entire premise of the OP. Dungeon DLC adds a TON of value for the average player.

This exactly^
And for a lot of players such as myself this is the endgame. Without these DLC delves I’m not playing anymore. They are why I play the game. Somebody in here said this is ZOS trying to force people into trials which is completely wrong. They are endgame for people who prefer the smaller group format and have no interest in doing trials.

An3rdyf8tk1d

As a newish player, my account is old but my in game experience is noobish. I prefer challenging content. Its the reason many of use are leaving other MMO's to come here. Other MMORPGS are just to easy now days. Its refreshing to see a developer pushing the limits rather than this everyone gets a trophy mentality.

Just my 2 cents.

Rungar

there was once a reasonable balance i think players were happy with.

trials and arenas provided highly mechanical challenges for top players and organized groups
vet dungeons provided medium challenges for regular players/pugs
public dungeons and delves provided challenges for softer players

dlc's have upset that balance by becoming mini trials.

thats all it really is.

haelene

Without actual data on clears, your idea of an average player is, well, bias. You know your experience and the anecdotal "evidence" of those you surround yourself with, and not the hard numbers (which only ZOS knows). I'm not saying that your wrong necessarily - but I know a lot of "average" players myself that love dungeon content. Again, anecdotal "proof".

Honestly, they put out more content that most other mmo's per year already. I don't think it's fair to ask for more because some of that content doesn't suit you personally. I mean, I loathe PvP, but it's not fair to the community if I call for an end to all PvP and claim that resources used to work on PvP are a waste. Some of the content just isn't going to suit you, and that's just fine.

Grianasteri

It seems clear to me that DLC dungeon content is designed to offer an experience that is more challenging than the base game dungeons.

Base game normal mode dungeons are supposed to be accessible to new and average players, with veteran providing a step up in the challenge for those players who are more experienced/proficient etc.

DLC dungeons are a level above this again, even at normal in some instances. And veteran DLC dungeons are of course even more difficult, providing a challenge for many experience high CP players/groups.

Not to mention of course the hard mode option available for boss fights.

While I agree that dungeon content for the average player could probably do with increasing, there is still a lot of existing content there for most players to enjoy and feel challenged. There are a lot of dungeons with decent story content, in my opinion. Would I like more? Sure. But I do not see this as a major area of deficiency.

The fact that many average players may strugle to tackle DLC veteran is not an issue either, because that content is there for more experienced and proficient players, with better gear and character builds etc.

I think the difficulty progression is a bit unclear and clunky so could perhaps be tweaked. I guess one way to tackle the matter could be to introduce a 3rd tier, normal, hard and veteran for instance, so that there is more progression. The story would not change but the difficulty involved in tackling the adds, bosses and mechanics would, spreading the load over 3 dungeon versions rather than two.

One issue with that is, it splits the player base queuing for a dungeon further, increasing wait times... thats probably the major issues that could stop such a change.

Anyway, I think over all ESO does a good job providing plenty of dungeon content for the average player.

Emma_Overload

Rungar wrote: »

there was once a reasonable balance i think players were happy with.

trials and arenas provided highly mechanical challenges for top players and organized groups
vet dungeons provided medium challenges for regular players/pugs
public dungeons and delves provided challenges for softer players

dlc's have upset that balance by becoming mini trials.

thats all it really is.

Quoted for truth. Everything new in this game is either way too easy or way too hard.

ZOS, we need more MEDIUM difficulty content!

DaveMoeDee

I agree with the premise that most players aren't doing DLC dungeons. But DLC dungeons are cheaper to make, so we get 2 of them. At least they can say to ESO+ players that they are getting 4 DLC/year. And the dungeon DLC definitely appeal to a large percentage of the most dedicated players.

I don't know about the claim that they are easier than Wolfhunter though. I cleared vMoS on a random PUG and it seemed pretty easy. Did the normal later as daily random on an alt I was leveling after it hit level 45+ and that was insanely easy. The alt was a templar tank with level 18 tanking gear, so not particularly optimized either.

I did get one of the new ones on a vet daily random pug and the first boss was tougher than anything in MoS.

lassitershawn

Transairion wrote: »

Since their inception dungeon DLC has only got harder and harder, lowering the amount of players who can clear them even more. Having hard stuff is perfectly fine, we all hate ourselves play for the challenge after all... but it really does seem like almost all the content in Dungeon DLC is "top player" content. That's really not a lot of players in the grand scheme of things, especially when the point of DLC is to sell it to make money.

Idk about this one... with the CP most people had on pre-nerf IC dungeon launch they were pretty brutal. Original inhibitor and flesh sculptor fights especially. I'd also say vRoM and vCoS are harder than vFH and probably the wolfhunter ones, especially on their launch. A lot of the newer ones have harder HMs than old ones but the rest of the dungeons are extremely trivial and monster sets are easier to get because of this to get.