[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

Starlock

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Time stop at 8100 kills useage by pve tanks.

Yup. Also, kills fun for us overland questing types. Too expensive to cast now for a magicka character. Not even worth leaning with it nearly doubled in cost.

_Ahala_

Browsing crown store removes in combat bug after like 10-20s... no, I’m not joking

WitchyWarrior

The most frustrating thing for me with the in-combat bug is the quick slots.
That has been a HUGE issue for me.
If it's a long battle & I run out of the siege I'm using at that moment, I can't replace it with a different one.
Or there are times that are too dangerous to use my Cold fire ballista(big chance of enemy burning it, or high chance of getting ganked) I'd replace it quickly with a meatbag or something. Can't do that with this bug.
Or if I run out of main pots during a long battle, I can't switch to my tri-pots so if I run out, I'm sol.
My quick slots are set up a certain way with only one slot that I change a lot prior to battle(FC or Keep recall)
All the others are things I use at almost every battle.
Plus when things get crazy, with no lull in fighting, running off to make more pots or buying more ballistas is not possible at that moment.
The transit & mounting a horse is annoying too. Just not as much as the quick slots.
I can honestly say I've never thought to swap skills or gear during a fight so that is not an issue, for me at least.

And BOOOOO! on the changes to Time Stop!! I actually JUST started using it yesterday and OMG it's so much fun. But at that new cost I highly doubt I will use it anymore. There are more important, but far less fun skills I need to use Magicka for. But that bums me out. I haven't tried it in PVE yet, but what I read from previous poster here about hoe they use it in pve sounds fun too. Blah. There are not that many things that make me laugh in PVP(besides zone chat), but Time Stop was becoming one of those things!

I also have no opinion on the Nord changes since I really don't think any of them would affect me enough to notice.
For 5 years my main has been a Nord MagSorc who just within the last month switched to Stam to try it out, so I am in no position to really notice a change. Not going to change her for any reason. EP NORDS 4 LIFE

Shorayel

Starlock wrote: »

So... time stop will be nearly useless in PvE because of planned astronomical cast cost to satisfy PvP whiners. Thanks.

I used it on my mag temp tank...but with this increased cost it is useless for PVE like you said

Hyrkanian

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Racials

[*] Redguard: ZOS is generally satisfied with how this race functions mechanically, but would like to add some identity that aids them in combat. They’ll be getting a utility boost

Return Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery

fakingfocused

IronWooshu wrote: »

I dont understand at all....

Damage modifiers on races will always be more important than tanking or healing passive's since DPS players want to squeeze every bit of damage possible out while ANY race can pick up a sword and shield and tank with ease.

Nord has no damage, they are at the bottom of the damage tree in Stamina and Magicka yet a racial that generates ultimate only when taking damage is potentially broken? If anything as a tank, I am not always taking damage so I might not even get the full effect of the passive to begin with. As stated like Alcast mentioned, if we are to hold our war horn than the passive once again makes no difference to any other race. What if my trial group wants to run multiple war horns one after the other, unless everyone is Nord the one Nord tank is going to have to hold off and wait or there may be a gap in War Horn uptime.

Yet Nord is what you're worried about? Not Redguard who can permanently block with their crazy OP sustain and will become BiS for tanks and if that happens what does Nord really have going for them? Worst DPS, 2nd or 3rd best tank, maybe last depending on Imperials changes. Worst healers with no sustain, no sustain for any role really.

1k health? 500 more than Orc and Dark Elf who have crazy damage to go with them.

We are going right back to where we are now, weak options all around. I am pretty sure Alcast is the only rep that likes Nord. They seem very underrepresented on these boards and even in game.

It's sad really and top DPS races are getting more buffs to their DPS.

Help me understand?

TL/DR: Nord is already the last choice for DPS end game which means we are being forced into a tank role (the opposite of what you wanted with every race for any role) they have no sustain for healers but if the ult makes them BiS healers that really takes the "big tough nord" image out of whack and really hurts my pride with my Nord being reduced to a heal bot (my least favorite role). The more you scale other races damage, the further Nord falls down to only one option tank and if we can't even be best at that we are reduced to pure end game healers.

How is that balance? I bet currently on live 0.01% of Nord players rolled a Nord to heal.

@Joy_Division @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Yes. Please consider these points. We want to competitively Dps on our nords. Not just tank or heal. Imho They should identify as a mele beserker type first and foremost. Ultimately thank you for hearing our thoughts and concerns. I look forward to all of your hard work and efforts

bardx86

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

WitchyWarrior

One more thing I'd like to mention & I don't know where to put it so I'll put it here hoping someone will see it:

Can they fix an issue with when viewing the Daily reward at 7pm, it takes you out of stealth?
I am always in PVP land at that time, and a lot of the times I am in stealth. The notification pops up, and when you click it, BOOM...you are out of stealth. It is so very annoying.
Can't they have it where the notification pops up the next time you transit somewhere or something?
It's bad enough that the "rewards" are now just a huge waste of space in my bag most of the time....

Sekt_Tiberlus

bardx86 wrote: »

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

The nerf of altmer is ok. They already have too good and unbalanced stats.

Draxys

For the first time since consoles came out, I'm actually cautiously looking forward to the next updates. Good stuff.

MLGProPlayer

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

This is very concerning as Breton is arguably already stronger on PTS since they can use a Berserker glyph. If the weak magicka return Altmer has now gets removed, they will fall behind Breton and Khajiit by a significant margin.

I'm not sure why they're touching Altmer as they were one of the most balanced races on PTS.

@Gilliamtherogue please be smart about this. In early testing, the meta seemed to be forming around Khajiit > Breton > Altmer, and you want to nerf Altmer?

XamXam777

Stuck in Combat: Unfortunately while ZOS has engineers working on this issue, it’s there and it’s going to be there until they get a handle on the issue. This prompted frustration and contention. ZOS made it clear they do not want to implement “band-aid” fixes and that the in-combat state was a core feature necessary for numerous combat systems. They indicated that they suffer the same bug and are also frustrated with it.

After some pressing, it became clear that getting passionate over the issue is not going to alleviate the situation, fix the bug, or prompt useful discussion. That being said, there are some things that ZOS indicated they are agreeable with to make it such that this super frustrating bug isn’t so destructive. One thing they specifically mentioned was they saw no reason why being in combat ought to prevent the use of the transitus wayshrines. Another possibility that perhaps can be explored is at least being able to change quickslots. I know this is not what anyone was looking for, but it is what it is and if you’re going to play Cyrodiil next update, then I highly suggest you channel your frustrations into useful suggestions that can make PvP playable while being stuck in combat as ZOS indicated that is something that they can do.

As a healer who suffers from the combat bug (almost) constantly, it would definitely lessen the blow to be able to change our quickslots while stuck in combat, especially for changing siege loadout (we used to be able to do this a few updates ago anyway but it was taken out for some reason?). And being able to use transitus wayshrines (and keep recall stones) in combat would certainly help too!

But if you really want to lessen the blow of the combat bug, if somehow possible, make it so we can mount while stuck in combat. Obviously, there would need to be some parameters... But as healer that gets stuck running (or barely so), long after the DPS in the group are able to get on their mounts, this is by far the MOST FRUSTRATING part of this bug. If the DPS in my group are able to get on their mounts then myself and the other healers in the group should be able to as well!

It is good to know you guys are working on this. It really is frustrating but if you guys implement the fixes indicated in the class rep notes, it will help. So thanks!

ZOS_Mika

Greetings! We have recently removed a bit of unnecessary and non-constructive commentary. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and doesn't go off the rails. Thank you for your understanding.

bardx86

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

The nerf of altmer is ok. They already have too good and unbalanced stats.

No offense but they didn't. What does altmer offer over brenton and dark elf now?

bardx86

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

This is very concerning as Breton is arguably already stronger on PTS since they can use a Berserker glyph. If the weak magicka return Altmer has now gets removed, they will fall behind Breton and Khajiit by a significant margin.

I'm not sure why they're touching Altmer as they were one of the most balanced races on PTS.

@Gilliamtherogue please be smart about this. In early testing, the meta seemed to be forming around Khajiit > Breton > Altmer, and you want to nerf Altmer?

Seriously! If they want to nerf sustain then the damage would need to be increase even more to make up for it.

DarkPicture

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

The nerf of altmer is ok. They already have too good and unbalanced stats.

On live server dunmer is bis for dmg and sustain from altmer isnt good and something special. Altmer is the most balanced race also on pts they are well balanced. So do u even play this game or you just kidding?

MLGProPlayer

KenaPKK wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Is this maybe a new form of racism against Altmers?

Of course. Because all the Dragonknights enraged and complained how poor Dunmer is now.
In return, there is nobody left to defend Altmer, because there are no Sorcerers anymore.

Look, I understand that Dunmer lost a part of their identity. They should have been given flame damage instead. But giving them the same magicka and spell damage as Altmer, is unheard of.

Technically all of these changes are unheard of, seeing as this is the first broad racial rebalance in...ever as far as I know.

And Altmer has the Class Reps and many avid sorc players defending it, but the complaint that it carried both the highest damage *and* decent sustain is a valid one. It needs to be distinguished a bit more from Breton if Breton is intended to be "the magicka sustain race." ZOS hasn't decided what they intend to do with it yet.

Altmer actually had the lowest DPS in testing.

@KenaPKK I'm concerned that the class reps thinks that Altmer is the top magicka DPS. All the testing so far has shown they are 2nd or 3rd best (including Liko's if you want a top DPSer).

Cambruin

I guess all this talk means that dungeon finder is working fine and lag is no longer an issue on test, right? Cause I don't see the point in 'discussing' any type of group content when there's no groups to get in, or class/race balance when lag throws all of that out of the window upon entering Cyrodil.

Really, thank you for fixing what needs fixing first so you can now focus on the less important issues such a gear sets, racials, ...

MLGProPlayer

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

The nerf of altmer is ok. They already have too good and unbalanced stats.

They did not. They had the 3rd highest DPS and very low sustain. 580 return every 6 seconds = 192 magicka recovery.

DPS comparison of all the classes:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455486/dps-comparison-of-races-on-magplar-on-pts4-3-0-tests-graphs-and-analysis/p1

IzzyStardust

Altmer change is a mistake.

MLGProPlayer

double post

Draxys

MerlinsBrother wrote: »

So let me get this straight. Because Curse Eater is good for cleansing and great in PvP, it deserves a nerf?

PvP is about the struggle, the fight, the intense battles. If you take away anything that makes it even remotely rough for teams to compete, then what is the point?
So... Healers tend to get rough hit with debuffs, curses, etc in PvP already. Curse Eater would help immensely on groupd that DO NOT HAVE A TEMPLAR.... So Curse Eater would help the groups like this. People are only complaining about it on a Templar as I see it.

So think about the versatility of Nightblade, Sorc, Warden etc healers. Think outside the box here, sure it is great in PvP... but because it makes the fights longer, harder and more... What PvP is literally about, it gets nerfed to ranks of the Oblivion set in Vaults of Madness? I see this as a blatant slap to healers faces.

It deserves a nerf because it automates a game mechanic for you at a very high rate and also gives regen. Not a good set when you're trying to achieve good combat design and balance.

IzzyStardust

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

Yes this has me absolutely stunned.

IzzyStardust

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Is there a reason it takes another update to see the problem with earthgore?

It not only saves players from grave mistakes but also Mitigates all incoming damage for its duration and negates ground placed ultimates that take longer to build up than the cool down of the set.

The set needs to have a flat healing nerf and needs to only proc in direct healing abillities. Not from a cp tree passive or a rapid regen tick.

Oh dear a Bombblade complaining about Earthgore - big shocker.

phantasmalD

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Altmer actually had the lowest DPS in testing.

'The lowest DPS' is an interesting way to spell 'second highest'.

MLGProPlayer

phantasmalD wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Altmer actually had the lowest DPS in testing.

'The lowest DPS' is an interesting way to spell 'second highest'.

They are third for some classes, behind Khajiit and Breton. Here is more testing (across every class): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1

They are not top DPS for a single class, which ZOS says they should be.

DarkPicture

I would rly like to see what changes class reps suggest because its hard to say what was by them and by you as zenimax and this program is worth or not.
e.g.
*some changes* --> this option was suggest by class reps
*some changes* --> and this is by zenimax combat group

When class reps just shows up, imo the pts changes are ridiculous in some weeks, like 1st week of pts was "ymm okey, its nice changes for races" and for 3rd week u suggest nerfs and buffs for races who on live serv are BiS. I dont get it.
Class reps still need to refine, too much NDA and we dont know what they excatly doing.

MLGProPlayer

Zer0oo wrote: »

they know that with the sustain of breton you will get higher dps on most classes than any other race including altmer.

The altmer passive sustain passive was quite bad. It gave fixed returns on skill activation which do not get buffed by passives and only work well on builds who use a lot of class skills. (RIP mag sorcs and healers+tanks) The passive is realistic (7-8 sec) 70-80 mag /sec but this gets not amplified by % of light armor, cp, sets pots,
so with light armor+pot(40% more reg) you just need 100-115 mag reg to match this passive in sustain aka the free mag reg bretons get on top to their resistances. It just gets worse for classes who use more weapon skills than class one. see mag sorc, stam dds, healers and tanks

The defensive passive of altmer was also extreme weak and only useful on templers.


No band-aid-fix for the incombat bug. /facepalm

They made it bug so bad with all the changes in the last big update and even worse with all the changes what you can not do while in "combat". Maybe just undo the stupid changes till you find a better way


Edit:
how to fix the combat bug 101:

player does not take damage or does damage for 20 sec -> out of combat till he either takes or does damage

It's crazy to me that they are ignoring a MOUNTAIN of testing so far and making these changes without a single piece of data to support them. This is ZOS balance at its finest.

MLGProPlayer

Is there a class rep discord for racial changes?

lassitershawn

Giving out the Skin as an achievement with completing the dungeon on veteran only is also a good idea. This way more people will be encouraged trying to get the skin. Usually when people see they need to do speedrun, no death or hardmode they just bail because they know they cannot get it.

This really devalues the achievement of the skin. Any halfway competent group of players can slog through regular veteran for the skin. At the very least lock it behind hardmode.