[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

MLGProPlayer

Beardimus wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

For those arguing about Dunmer/Altmer:

Dunmer aren't getting a buff or a nerf- they're getting an adjustment.

Dunmer: More damage is the goal, changes were too far from their original mechanics. Will gain more stamina and magicka stats to boost damage, though will have health reduced.
That's a nerf/buff that dunmer players were looking for.

Altmer aren't losing all of their regen- they're getting an adjustment as well.

Altmer: Goal was for Bretons to be sustain oriented and Spell Recharge was making High Elf both damage and sustain. ZOS wants this to still be a damage race and will look to reform Spell Recharge to provide something other than main stat return.

This is an adjustment as well. It may be that they'll receive some sort of higher damage... but honestly, ZOS can leave Altmer alone at this point.

In an "balanced" world- wouldn't it be fair that each of the races share a high, medium, and low combination of spell damage, resources, and regeneration?

Altmer- Medium damage, high resources, low regen.

Breton- Low damage, medium resources, high regen.

Dunmer- High damage, low resources, medium regen.

It's a tricky balance that ZOS has to do with all races.

Good shout. Can't believe the Altmer crew are moaning and haven't actually seen the change yet. The first pass wasn't right, if ZOS pull off something similar to above its a gd thing.

Personally there's more to it than some pros doing 60k DPS parses and saying the changes were all similar...

The first pass was right though. Look at all the testing that was done. Altmer were not top DPS. Breton and Khajiit were better options even before the nerfs. Nerfing their sustain puts them too far behind to be competitive.

SaintSubwayy

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

Go and test Orc now, and compare their Sustain when the Brawler passive gets gutted tomorrow...

Orc was a great Stamina DPS race on 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 and by the looks of it, it will be gutted to be the new Nord...

I think it will be the opposite brother, (;

We'll see, for PVP I duno how the brawler will turn out in 4.3.2, maybe its good for PVP no idea tbh

Bunt in terms of PVE, where as of now everybody runs redguards, for the sustain, a nerf to the sustain of ORC seems to be too much for them to stay viable. Evenkhajit s have some issues on a 6mio dummy when solo.
Now with the proposed removal of the ORc sustain (which was IMO in a great spot for PVE), I see them having the same issue as dunmer has on the PTS, with them having high DMG, but arent able to sustain it without HA.

Now on live, everybody plays redguard, because the have best sustain...which already should be a indicator, that sustain is a issue (unless playing redguard) when I see the Patchnotes from 4.3.0 I was like...jeah now Orc may be a good DPS Race, maybe a littlebit behint Khajit in therms of DMG...since the sustain wasnt that big of a difference...

Now with this Change Redguards and Khajit rain surpreme on Stamina DDs once again (in PVE raids), with khajit having more DMG and decent enough sustain, and redguards having a bit less DMG with great sustain.

But I'll see how the change looks when the Notes come out today...

Alucardmike

Is this a kind of joke, saying, that Bosmer (and every other race) will get more options for stealth, outside the racial bonus?
Really?

So everyone could be as good in sneaking as a Bosmer? Except the Khajit, which will get also more options and much better?

This is stupid.

Take the useless detection radius from the Bosmer and give us back our stealth.

And iI would appreciate your oppinion, ZOS, why this thing is useful for us (because only in PVP, there is a use of it, and even there, it is not useful)

ZonasArch

Alucardmike wrote: »

Is this a kind of joke, saying, that Bosmer (and every other race) will get more options for stealth, outside the racial bonus?
Really?

So everyone could be as good in sneaking as a Bosmer? Except the Khajit, which will get also more options and much better?

This is stupid.

Take the useless detection radius from the Bosmer and give us back our stealth.

And iI would appreciate your oppinion, ZOS, why this thing is useful for us (because only in PVP, there is a use of it, and even there, it is not useful)

"There's a use of it" and "not useful" are exact opposites. Is it useful or is it not? And it seems pretty damn useable to me. And lore friendly since bosmer are excellent scouts, spies and hunters.

I do agree that removing the other one was kinda bad. We could very well have both.

Deathlord92

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hmpf. If we're going by lore, Altmer are absolutely at the top of magical damage because they multiply it. No other race can challenge that and there is no fancy theorycrafting with sets and food - High Elves deal more damage, always. Give us the increased elemental weakness. Who cares when we outdamage the other casters more than they get out of their elemental bonus? Not to mention it's only elemental, not arcane (Frags, Bow, Curse, PotL, Jabs, Shalks, etc.). And we would absolutely DESTROY stamina builds.

Speaking of, magic is canon to deal more damage than physical.
And Altmer are resistant to disease, so no Defile on us, thank you.

Lore-friendly racials don't fully work for ESO. Unfortunately. I would so gladly have the Altmers' canon strengths...

Oh, and if I really wanted to go all the way, Altmer were immune to paralysis in TESII: Daggerfall. Which meeeans... *drum roll* we should be immune to stuns in ESO.
Who's the master race, again?

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hmpf. If we're going by lore, Altmer are absolutely at the top of magical damage because they multiply it. No other race can challenge that and there is no fancy theorycrafting with sets and food - High Elves deal more damage, always. Give us the increased elemental weakness. Who cares when we outdamage the other casters more than they get out of their elemental bonus? Not to mention it's only elemental, not arcane (Frags, Bow, Curse, PotL, Jabs, Shalks, etc.). And we would absolutely DESTROY stamina builds.

Speaking of, magic is canon to deal more damage than physical.
And Altmer are resistant to disease, so no Defile on us, thank you.

Lore-friendly racials don't fully work for ESO. Unfortunately. I would so gladly have the Altmers' canon strengths...

Oh, and if I really wanted to go all the way, Altmer were immune to paralysis in TESII: Daggerfall. Which meeeans... *drum roll* we should be immune to stuns in ESO.
Who's the master race, again?

According to lore the Saxhleel is magically superior race with their chaotic magic and unstructured spells. While Argonians have biomancy and with their hist-magic can shape themself in any form, the Altmer are just degenerates that used to perform eugenic experiments on their own people. The result is a little boost to magic and a huge vulnerability to it and reduced birth rate. I never saw any magic gifts from other elves like bosmer or dunmer(just a little bonus to destruction, the most easiest school) in singleplayer game, but they just are very close to altmer. So elves basically are not magically gifted.

Again. Argonian is master race. Everyone knows it. It is truth. And they also need to be buffed. Not altmer. I'm a very old fan of tes and i know no one that would like to play altmer in past. Only tes V kids. Dunmer? Yes, there are many old fans of them, thanks to dnd and drow, but not altmer, Altmer is boring. Its just generic elves, and they are nothing compared to scaly gods we know as Argonians or Saxhleel.

Ur both very wrong Bretons are the master race thy eat magic as if it was nothing 💪

Bretons are just mogrels. I don't even consider them as a race. Need to replace them with reachman as playable race.

My Breton would have something to say about this 🙂

Alucardmike

ZonasArch wrote: »

"There's a use of it" and "not useful" are exact opposites. Is it useful or is it not? And it seems pretty damn useable to me. And lore friendly since bosmer are excellent scouts, spies and hunters.

I do agree that removing the other one was kinda bad. We could very well have both.

I mean, that in PVE nobody benefits of this skill. Only in PVP, but there is it not very useful. (I have only read this, because I am roleplayer and do nearly no PVP)

And it might be lore friendly, but we had no better eyes in the real elder scrolls games, only the bonus on sneaking. So we should get this one here.

I think the passive skill should help everyone, not only one kind of playstyle.

Girl_Number8

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

what id love to see nerfed is block casting...oooh how I would love to..

No thanks, tanks are rare enough already.

What do you expect from the casuals?

No surprise, instead of buffing underwhelming racial passives and making every race a good choice to use and not sit on the dust shelf, Zos did it again. Though this set unbalanced nerfs to racial passives comes this time with money attached to it, by pushing us to buy race change tokens. Seems we are going towards p2w which they said they would not do.

I just see a failure to listen to your long time players.

MLGProPlayer

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

what id love to see nerfed is block casting...oooh how I would love to..

No thanks, tanks are rare enough already.

What do you expect from the casuals?

No surprise, instead of buffing underwhelming racial passives and making every race a good choice to use and not sit on the dust shelf, Zos did it again. Though this set unbalanced nerfs to racial passives comes this time with money attached to it, by pushing us to buy race change tokens. Seems we are going towards p2w which they said they would not do.

I just see a failure to listen to your long time players.

What I find most perplexing is that they HAD good balance in PTS iteration #1 (save for a few races). And now they're looking to destroy it. It really does seem like the entire motivation behind this is to sell race change tokens. Why else would they ruin balance after achieving it? Clearly achieving balance isn't their goal.

HappyLittleTree

According to lore the Saxhleel is magically superior race with their chaotic magic and unstructured spells. While Argonians have biomancy and with their hist-magic can shape themself in any form, the Altmer are just degenerates that used to perform eugenic experiments on their own people. The result is a little boost to magic and a huge vulnerability to it and reduced birth rate. I never saw any magic gifts from other elves like bosmer or dunmer(just a little bonus to destruction, the most easiest school) in singleplayer game, but they just are very close to altmer. So elves basically are not magically gifted.

Again. Argonian is master race. Everyone knows it. It is truth. And they also need to be buffed. Not altmer. I'm a very old fan of tes and i know no one that would like to play altmer in past. Only tes V kids. Dunmer? Yes, there are many old fans of them, thanks to dnd and drow, but not altmer, Altmer is boring. Its just generic elves, and they are nothing compared to scaly gods we know as Argonians or Saxhleel.

[laughs-in-jel]

IronWooshu

I am really curious to see what "utility" boost Redguards get, isn't the 960 stamina return already a utility passive?

Dracane

IronWooshu wrote: »

I am really curious to see what "utility" boost Redguards get, isn't the 960 stamina return already a utility passive?

No ! Stamina Supremacy must endure. The superiority is not distinct enough at the moment. More is needed.

Lord_Eomer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

Class reps must all play Dunmer or Khajit ...Altmer the GD godfathers of Magicka in all the TES lore are being belittled by the Bretons? You're kidding me right? ...this is utter trash

They were already behind Breton before these proposed nerfs. Now they'll be significantly behind.

I'm not sure this is what the class reps want. Most of the top DDs have tested the races and know that Altmer is underperforming. This sounds like ZOS being ZOS.

Their damage stats are not behind Breton or khajit etc.

Stop flooding all over the forum, testing done by a single player may depend on different circumstances.

Wait for next patch first.

Testing was done by multiple players. Here is a test by Liko, one of the top DDs in the game.

Altmer has not been BiS for magicka DPS in anyone's testing.

You are just after one test and setup feasible as per player and rotation.

I would recommend you to wait for PTS.

Lord-Otto

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hmpf. If we're going by lore, Altmer are absolutely at the top of magical damage because they multiply it. No other race can challenge that and there is no fancy theorycrafting with sets and food - High Elves deal more damage, always. Give us the increased elemental weakness. Who cares when we outdamage the other casters more than they get out of their elemental bonus? Not to mention it's only elemental, not arcane (Frags, Bow, Curse, PotL, Jabs, Shalks, etc.). And we would absolutely DESTROY stamina builds.

Speaking of, magic is canon to deal more damage than physical.
And Altmer are resistant to disease, so no Defile on us, thank you.

Lore-friendly racials don't fully work for ESO. Unfortunately. I would so gladly have the Altmers' canon strengths...

Oh, and if I really wanted to go all the way, Altmer were immune to paralysis in TESII: Daggerfall. Which meeeans... *drum roll* we should be immune to stuns in ESO.
Who's the master race, again?

According to lore the Saxhleel is magically superior race with their chaotic magic and unstructured spells. While Argonians have biomancy and with their hist-magic can shape themself in any form, the Altmer are just degenerates that used to perform eugenic experiments on their own people. The result is a little boost to magic and a huge vulnerability to it and reduced birth rate. I never saw any magic gifts from other elves like bosmer or dunmer(just a little bonus to destruction, the most easiest school) in singleplayer game, but they just are very close to altmer. So elves basically are not magically gifted.

Again. Argonian is master race. Everyone knows it. It is truth. And they also need to be buffed. Not altmer. I'm a very old fan of tes and i know no one that would like to play altmer in past. Only tes V kids. Dunmer? Yes, there are many old fans of them, thanks to dnd and drow, but not altmer, Altmer is boring. Its just generic elves, and they are nothing compared to scaly gods we know as Argonians or Saxhleel.

That's what mud people keep telling themselves. Galerion was an Argonian, hm? Mannimarco? Camoran?
Altmer are the closest relatives to the gods, magic is the power of the gods. Altmer are naturally attuned to magic and therefore many of the greatest mages are of that race. And Dunmer aren't too far behind with Seth and Fyr. On the other hand I can't name a single great argonian mage.
Also, Dunmer were OP in Morrowind. Bretons were in Oblivion for 100% immunity, but Altmer for 100% absorp and more power. Argonians were just bad. Always.

Galarthor

MerlinsBrother wrote: »

So let me get this straight. Because Curse Eater is good for cleansing and great in PvP, it deserves a nerf?

PvP is about the struggle, the fight, the intense battles. If you take away anything that makes it even remotely rough for teams to compete, then what is the point?
So... Healers tend to get rough hit with debuffs, curses, etc in PvP already. Curse Eater would help immensely on groupd that DO NOT HAVE A TEMPLAR.... So Curse Eater would help the groups like this. People are only complaining about it on a Templar as I see it.

So think about the versatility of Nightblade, Sorc, Warden etc healers. Think outside the box here, sure it is great in PvP... but because it makes the fights longer, harder and more... What PvP is literally about, it gets nerfed to ranks of the Oblivion set in Vaults of Madness? I see this as a blatant slap to healers faces.

You are right, PVP should be about the struggle and NOT about the lagging out the server b/c 20 people stack in 1 spot and spam AoEs non-stop. The only thing struggling there is the game and the servers. The other players are just frustrated, as you need to be able to do something in order to struggle ... which is pretty much impossible thanks to your kind (ballgroup zergling).

Galarthor

IronWooshu wrote: »

I am really curious to see what "utility" boost Redguards get, isn't the 960 stamina return already a utility passive?

If they dodge more than 2 times in a row a Window will pop up and tell them "Only *** move around rolling. Sane people walk or run!"

Tasear

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Time stop at 8100 kills useage by pve tanks.

Indeed ...I am starting to see what people mean about pvp changes that hurt pvp. The cost of the still will make it useless skill.

ezio45

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Both the Devs and the class Reps have gotten more comfortable with our routines and there is q noticeable amount of increase in communication between us outside of these formal meetings. While there are some things where there some disagreement between us, it is telling the things that have frustrated us the most are bugs rather than design decisions. Speaking for myself, there was a good two or three year period where I did not look forward to patch notes because they just seemed like a list of nerfs. While there are things I would have done differently, on the whole I do think this update is improving the game and I am looking forward to the Elsweyr update as ZOS has demonstrated a willingness to tackle the issues the community does bring up.

As someone who has played this game a very long time and thought I would be playing til the day eso shuts down. Design decisions are most definitely the thing that has drove me away from eso. Bugs ya there annoying, poor performance again annoying. It is the design decisions though that have caused the majority of players ik and myself to stop playing eso. Infact I can only think of 1 person I am friends with out of 20 or so that still actively plays eso. It was 100% are result of decisions made in Morrowind and murkimire. I am in 4 guilds, 500 players in all of them. 140 ish players on a night pre Morrowind, 50-80 pre murkimire. We have maybe 30 players at our highest times in each of those guilds. It wasn't the bugs or performance that did that. It's the systematic homogenizing of class, armor and play style and the phasing out and elimination of builds and play styles. To the point where not only are unique or niche builds not viable but even regular builds for some classes and armors arnt viable.

Idk, hopefully wheeler makes combat (and combat it's what forms the game play) fun again.

Morgul667

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

what id love to see nerfed is block casting...oooh how I would love to..

No thanks, tanks are rare enough already.

What do you expect from the casuals?

No surprise, instead of buffing underwhelming racial passives and making every race a good choice to use and not sit on the dust shelf, Zos did it again. Though this set unbalanced nerfs to racial passives comes this time with money attached to it, by pushing us to buy race change tokens. Seems we are going towards p2w which they said they would not do.

I just see a failure to listen to your long time players.

What I find most perplexing is that they HAD good balance in PTS iteration #1 (save for a few races). And now they're looking to destroy it. It really does seem like the entire motivation behind this is to sell race change tokens. Why else would they ruin balance after achieving it? Clearly achieving balance isn't their goal.

This a good and valid point in my book

TheDarkShadow

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

WHAT? I use this as cc on my tank instead of talon and now you want to make it cost almost half my mana pool? Pls stop nerf pve for pvp sake!

MaxJrFTW

Argonians: More healing done and higher resource return on potions.

The healing needs to be higher, otherwise Breton, Altmer, and even Nords are going to be better healers even though the new racials make Argonians a healer only race. If their racials are going to be limited to healing, then they need to be at least slightly better healers than the other races.

The potion racial though. It's currently OP on the live servers, and even at 3600 it's still a very strong racial. Increasing it would be a mistake.

Khajiit: ZOS generally liked what this race was offering, though indicated that some small boosts in the stats would be ideal. Stealth passive to be adjusted so they can’t literally walk under a guard’s nose without being seen.

Khajiit are top magicka dps, and 2nd stamina dps. Guess that means we should buff them further so they're best for both. Help me understand this?

Orc: ZOS wants this to be a more damage oriented “brawler” race rather than a sustain option (that’s where Redgaurds are supposed to shine). So will likely see a boost in stamina (with less overall health) and unflinching rage will restore health rather than stamina on doing damage (with cooldown).

500 health is pretty low as it is. Does it really need to be reduced? I wouldn't complain if the stamina was being increased to 2k, but i doubt that's the case. Orcs are supposed to be strong, it's part of the race identity.

Secondly, by taking away the stamina return from Unflinching Rage you essentially make orcs a mediocre stam dps race. Most tests already have them at 3rd and taking the stamina regen away will see them drop to 4th or 5th. Health return unless it is comparable to red diamond, is next to useless in PvP. That is specially the case if it is given a cooldown.

So in other words you're making orc the most useless race in the game. Not good for tanking, not good for dps, not good for pvp.

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

THANK YOU! Cyrodiil should be more enjoyable now. Although i've no doubt those that currently spam this will find a way to keep doing it by going for more sustain and cost reduction.

One-Hand enchants: We did not spend as much time on this as we’d have liked too (we were running short on time). It’s a big impact on tanking and duel wield DPS. That being said, we’ve had long discussions about this in our Discord and it’s safe to say the implications of these changes have been communicated to ZOS.

Dual wield dps needs a nerf. It's too far ahead of 2h, and it's what's keeping stamina ahead of magicka.

How do we solve the problem for tanking? Simple. Enchants are only half as effective when you dual wield.

VeiledCriticism

Might be too soon to say, but apparently Tiber Septim wasn't the only one to screw Altmers in the 2E.

Ode2Order

I still don't really agree with the Hunter's Eye passive for Bosmer (or whatever it's called), especially the way you justified it. Basically your (extra!) justification boiled down to: "Sneaking isn't really a thing enemies do in Tamriel, so we're taking the sneaking bonus away from the Bosmer. However, we're giving the Bosmer a passive that makes it easier for them to see the sneaking enemies that don't exist". I would like to see you to come up with another passive entirely as your argument is just... wildly contradicting itself.

IzzyStardust

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Sekt_Tiberlus wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

The change to high elf is terrible. No one will be that class now. It was a nice balance as it is on PTS currently.

The nerf of altmer is ok. They already have too good and unbalanced stats.

And next time you want MORE ORBS in raid I'll be all Sorry too Bad High Elf Nerf.

You dunno what you are even talking about.

In my raid everyone is argonian. We don't allow inferior races without scales in our ranks.

I pray your guild is called Louis Vuitton. Or Gucci (lol!). Or something else like Kate Spade Handbags.

Lacoste obviously

Ahahaha!

spiralvin

The way I see it, making Khajiits excel in both stamina and magicka is a marketing strategy for race change tokens to the major race of the upcoming Elsweyr chapter. There is simply no reason to give superior burst damage buffs towards both Magicka and Stamina, for a race that is supposed to be established as nimble predators or hunters.

Seriously. I play Dunmer MagDK, but not Altmer. I am not too upset by the hybridization of the Dunmer, but I can safely say that I both sympathize and emphathize our Mer bethrens, whose homes were featured in the previous chapters.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Khajiit: ZOS generally liked what this race was offering, though indicated that some small boosts in the stats would be ideal. Stealth passive to be adjusted so they can’t literally walk under a guard’s nose without being seen.

Khajiit are top magicka dps, and 2nd stamina dps. Guess that means we should buff them further so they're best for both. Help me understand this?

Ragnaroek93

Funny how everybody already loses his/her mind before we actually know the new passives.

amir412

FINALLY, ZOS doing great in terms of balance! keep the good work.

MartiniDaniels

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Funny how everybody already loses his/her mind before we actually know the new passives.

It's experience, when ZOS "adjusts" something, it's most probably nerf.

Lord-Otto

It says directly in the notes that ZOS are looking for something other than MAIN STAT. So no max mag, no mag regen, no spellpower. Health and stamina are still useless from an optimized perspective, so what could possibly be in store for us but a nerf?
Of course, Ragnaroek doesn't care. He just wants sorcs and High Elves nerfed. So he can't get why we're frightened. But I hope I made it clear now.

Xvorg

Lord-Otto wrote: »

It says directly in the notes that ZOS are looking for something other than MAIN STAT. So no max mag, no mag regen, no spellpower. Health and stamina are still useless from an optimized perspective, so what could possibly be in store for us but a nerf?
Of course, Ragnaroek doesn't care. He just wants sorcs and High Elves nerfed. So he can't get why we're frightened. But I hope I made it clear now.

magicka leech?

I think it's OK

Lord-Otto

Xvorg wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

It says directly in the notes that ZOS are looking for something other than MAIN STAT. So no max mag, no mag regen, no spellpower. Health and stamina are still useless from an optimized perspective, so what could possibly be in store for us but a nerf?
Of course, Ragnaroek doesn't care. He just wants sorcs and High Elves nerfed. So he can't get why we're frightened. But I hope I made it clear now.

magicka leech?

I think it's OK

Also magicka-oriented. As I'm reading it, and I am rightfully pessimistic regarding the past years, Altmer are getting NOTHING to help magicka performance. They got damage and that's it. New racial will probably be utility.
My bet is on a bit health to help shields, sustain food and underline their canon physical resilience (which used to be paralysis or disease resistance/immunity). Which won't help PvE at all and will be severely underperforming in PvP.

See, if this wasn't ZOS or ESO we're talking about, I'd probably be eager, excited even, to see what the designers came up with. But after all the BS I've gone through with this game, there's only pessimism and depression left. Not a medicinal depression. That's actually no laughinh matter. But a depressed mood and attitude towards ESO.