[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

ZOS_GinaBruno

Good evening everyone!

A few days ago, we held one of our regular calls with the Class Reps to discuss PTS feedback with the focus being the racial passives, itemization, and the two new Wrathstone dungeons. @Joy_Division was kind enough to take notes during the call, which you'll find below.

Additionally, we're really excited to let everyone know that we've invited the Class Reps to the studio to playtest the upcoming Necromancer class and give us some early feedback based on various testing scenarios (for example: Necros in duels, BGs, dungeons, etc.) This will happen in a couple weeks and while they'll be under NDA, there is a press embargo in the near future where, at that point, they'll be able to give some insight into their experience.

Without further ado, here are the notes from our meeting as written by Joy:

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On the whole, the meeting was productive. There were numerous ZOS Devs participating at the meeting, which is a good Development as it not only allowed for us to get more insight into where they were coming from, but more direct feedback from those Devs in the systems in which they are responsible (such as gear).

We are under NDA, and quite a few topics strayed into this area. Also, the Devs made reference to the Elsweyr update in numerous inquiries that we made. This means, unfortunately, that we cannot relay all that we talked about; in fact there is quite a bit we can’t. I can say from what I heard at the meeting, I am looking forward to Elsweyr and it seems the Devs are willing to continue and look into issues from this patch. That being said, here’s the non-NDA version of events.

Racials

As expected, we spent a good chunk of time here. I’ll go into more detail below, but the gist of the feedback from the Devs made us think they have taken our and the community’s feedback to heart and are legitimately trying to make this as smooth as possible. Speaking for myself, I was impressed and - pleasantly surprised – the path ZOS is going here to try and improve the races is to do just that: improve what’s on the PTS. It’s a nice change of pace not to see things get hit with nerfs as an attempt to address issues.

OK, some details. I can’t get into specifics as ZOS is still tweaking some stuff and there’s NDA, but I can relay what their goals are and how they will try and go about them. Something to consider that is potentially huge: ZOS is looking to make flat bonuses interact consistently with CP, so your character stat values that you see on the PTS now will likely be higher than on the PTS next week. This means the changes are going to be more significant than what’s just listed below.

• Argonians: More healing done and higher resource return on potions.
• Bretons: Overall ZOS liked where they were, though are looking to make some (positive) adjustments/conditionals to the resistance passive.
• Dunmer: More damage is the goal, changes were too far from their original mechanics. Will gain more stamina and magicka stats to boost damage, though will have health reduced.
• Altmer: Goal was for Bretons to be sustain oriented and Spell Recharge was making High Elf both damage and sustain. ZOS wants this to still be a damage race and will look to reform Spell Recharge to provide something other than main stat return.
• Imperial: ZOS is looking to make Red Diamond do more than just be a % proc for health. They understand the race in general needed a boost. Imperials on the PTS were too restrictive for tank builds. They are versatile race and the new passive will reflect that
• Khajiit: ZOS generally liked what this race was offering, though indicated that some small boosts in the stats would be ideal. Stealth passive to be adjusted so they can’t literally walk under a guard’s nose without being seen.
• Orc: ZOS wants this to be a more damage oriented “brawler” race rather than a sustain option (that’s where Redgaurds are supposed to shine). So will likely see a boost in stamina (with less overall health) and unflinching rage will restore health rather than stamina on doing damage (with cooldown).
• Redguard: ZOS is generally satisfied with how this race functions mechanically, but would like to add some identity that aids them in combat. They’ll be getting a utility boost
• Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.
• Nord: There was quite a bit of discussion about this race. ZOS understands there are concerns that Nords will become the default too-good tank race because of the passive. However, before just nerfing or changing it, they would like to see some actual gameplay to see if these concerns come about. Alcast specifically mentioned that there are times a raid wants to hold Warhorn for a critical moment, which means sometimes ultimate counters goes up to 300, which would make the Nord passive useless. We talked about healers potentially also changing to Nords to get that passive, and we didn’t see that as a problem as the whole point of the racial changes was to diversify things and make for interesting choices. Besides, a Nord healer is giving up a ton of sustain, so give and take. The Reps agreed that actual gameplay was preferable to speculation. ZOS has their eyes on this race though.

In general, the Reps felt the Devs were responding to a lot of feedback that has been given, are trying to make this as smooth as possible, and were pleased to see that positive adjustments were the main tool rather than nerfs.

The Reps did float ideas that would make it possible for players to receive more than one race change token. We encouraged the Devs to put more thought into this.

Item Sets

We got into a good discussion about proc sets, specifically those proc sets that at least players have to work for bonuses (such as Spell Strategist), which we think are positive additions to the game, and nightmare ones like Sloads that give players powerful bonuses basically for free. ZOS has indicated they appreciate the difference and from what they said, Elsweyr is looking like it might offer players some solid, fun options without resorting to dubious overperforming sets.

Some of the specific sets we talked about:

• Icy conqueror: ZOS has noted some tooltips were potentially too high and will adjust the set such that it does the dame DPS, with lower damage happening with shorter cooldowns.
• Warband: Will proc on direct damage rather than basic attacks so players can get more specific performance. ZOS understand that min-max grouped players wont need this set, but wants these bonuses available for bow / bow builds and people not in such organized gameplay. We felt this was fine.
• Curse Eater: ZOS has heard a lot of feedback on this. They still want the set to provide the same basic function, but will make it such that the set will only proc on direct healing and have a longer cooldown, though with more potent effects.

The other sets, we talked abut potential issues, but were willing to see more gameplay before changes were necessary.

Other Gear stuff:
NDA / later update stuff here. ZOS knows that Fury / 7th Legion are overshadowing just about every stamina PvP option. They know fighting Earthgore is frustrating to a lot of players. They mentioned other sets that players bring up as pain points. This is not for this update so wont be on next week’s PTS, but it was good to hear from ZOS’s own mouths that existing gear needs to be looked at.

Classes

This is not a focus for this update, so there’s once again going to be a lot of NDA and update 22 stuff here. That being said, although this PTS is not likely going to address some of the pain points the community has, the combat team is absolutely investigating ongoing class concerns for update 22.

One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed.

A lot of what we Reps said was answered by, “Yep, we know. We’re working on it for Update 22.”

Several Reps indicated they are sending detailed lists to ensure these pain points (and new ones) get even more attention, including a DK-specific write up from Quantum.

Basically if something has been identified as a pain point that has not been addressed yet, it was repeated. Also, and this is important, we planned to have another meeting with the Devs right after the PTS to get into nitty gritty about classes. In short, even if your class concerns aren’t going to show up on the PTS, they absolutely will get communicated in detail long before ZOS puts up the PTS for Elsweyr. Hang in there.

PVP stuff

Stuck in Combat: Unfortunately while ZOS has engineers working on this issue, it’s there and it’s going to be there until they get a handle on the issue. This prompted frustration and contention. ZOS made it clear they do not want to implement “band-aid” fixes and that the in-combat state was a core feature necessary for numerous combat systems. They indicated that they suffer the same bug and are also frustrated with it.

After some pressing, it became clear that getting passionate over the issue is not going to alleviate the situation, fix the bug, or prompt useful discussion. That being said, there are some things that ZOS indicated they are agreeable with to make it such that this super frustrating bug isn’t so destructive. One thing they specifically mentioned was they saw no reason why being in combat ought to prevent the use of the transitus wayshrines. Another possibility that perhaps can be explored is at least being able to change quickslots. I know this is not what anyone was looking for, but it is what it is and if you’re going to play Cyrodiil next update, then I highly suggest you channel your frustrations into useful suggestions that can make PvP playable while being stuck in combat as ZOS indicated that is something that they can do.

Rapid Maneuvers: The discussion around this skill mostly centered around the issue of movement and speed/snares. This is one of those future update things so can’t be specific. The Reps indicated that while they agreed the old Rapids skill was poorly deigned and needed an overhaul, what’s on the PTS is impractical as the instances where retreat is necessary, healing and buffs will cause the skill to fall off and thus waste somebody’s 8100 stamina. They’ve heard the frustrations over movement loud and clear.

PvP annoyances that ZOS agreed were indeed annoying and looking to address: Time Stop (see below), Earthgore (next update), Snipe (see below), Scattershot stun (bug fixed on the PTS, please report if this still has issues), Oblivion damage (it’s too good, next update).

Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil have non-class related pain points that the Reps will relay to ZOS follow the meeting.

Miscellaneous mechanics

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

Snipe: ZOS has engineers actively looking into the desynchs and bugs with this skill. They also indicated there has been a lot of feedback about this skill and will reexamine it next update.
Arena Weapons: Reevaluating these are “on the radar.” ZOS knows they need adjustment.

Shade: Unfortunately, like in-combat, ZOS’s engineers are still trying to get to the bottom of this bug.

One-Hand enchants: We did not spend as much time on this as we’d have liked too (we were running short on time). It’s a big impact on tanking and duel wield DPS. That being said, we’ve had long discussions about this in our Discord and it’s safe to say the implications of these changes have been communicated to ZOS.

In general, I think this is something to be emphasized. Just because a particular issue, pain point, or mechanic is not on this summary of our meeting, that does not mean it was forgotten or hasn’t been brought to the Devs’ attention. In fact, without question, we have had far more communication with the Devs in our discord about the PTS, pain points, bugs, question changes, and community concerns than what we went over in a 120 minute meeting. Plus there is NDA stuff and mechanics ZOS has indicated they are doing in another update.

Both the Devs and the class Reps have gotten more comfortable with our routines and there is q noticeable amount of increase in communication between us outside of these formal meetings. While there are some things where there some disagreement between us, it is telling the things that have frustrated us the most are bugs rather than design decisions. Speaking for myself, there was a good two or three year period where I did not look forward to patch notes because they just seemed like a list of nerfs. While there are things I would have done differently, on the whole I do think this update is improving the game and I am looking forward to the Elsweyr update as ZOS has demonstrated a willingness to tackle the issues the community does bring up.

Wrathstone Dungeon Feedback

The bosses are well designed and are fun to play. The Skeevaton mace also adds another level of difficulty and "fun" sequence to a bossfight never really seen before like this in ESO.
In normal mode you can easily get through if you have the full team together, difficulty is fine there. Veteran mode, especially Frostvault is quite difficult even for some more organized teams. I would call frostvault to be the most difficult dungeon so far, especially with the hard mode activated.

The dungeons are fine for NORMAL LFG groups. Veteran LFG groups most likely would just get rekt over and over again. To beat the bosses you need a coordinated group, otherwise it will not end well.

Giving out the Skin as an achievement with completing the dungeon on veteran only is also a good idea. This way more people will be encouraged trying to get the skin. Usually when people see they need to do speedrun, no death or hardmode they just bail because they know they cannot get it.

SKEEVATON PHASE FROSTVAULT DUNGEON: Please for the love of god, give us some sort of clear explanation what the skills do before the fight starts. We had to screenshot the skills, get out of the game and check out the tooltips to even figure out what they exactly do. ZOS stated there will be something included in the next PTS patch for this.

Lord_Zele

And to think I actually turned down being a class rep.
BIG SAD.
Edit:
THEY'RE CHANGING SNIPE?!?

Dracane

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

Pelican

Awesome, I'm very happy that stuck in combat and shadow image bugs are being looked into, and snipe re-evaluated. Huge thanks to the combat team and all the Class Reps, keep up the good work!

templesus

Snipe is GETTING RE-EXAMINED?!?! HALLELUJAH

WildRaptorX

Glad to see some more changes to Dark Elf, although I’m hoping the imperial turns out good too

Crixus8000

My race not getting nerfed, and snipe getting looked into ? This can't be real life.

Expert

I'm very thankful Magicka Sorcerers is spared this patch, thank you for not cutting off our limbs.

The update looks great, the only suggestion I want to say is please take your time with these updates. Rushing things is a big flaw and creates a lot of frustrations for the entire community to deal with.

Although beautiful update, thanks for all you do guys!

Morgul667

Nice thanks

If ZOS starts listening to its players for real i might do a chicken dance

Wait to see though

zyk

Thank you very much. Updates like this mean a lot. Many times, players lose their cool because obvious issues aren't even acknowledged for so long.

I think you'll find the community will be more patient about some things as you continue down this path.

Kikke

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

This. On PTS atm the races was balanced, this will only turn High Elf into a niche glass cannon race, and that is so against the lore. We are supposed the be the ones that brought magic too Tamriel, We were the ones that spread magic too the other races. Now tell me, why is other races better at magic than altmers again?

This change will do one thing: Critt based classes will do better next patch, while non critt classes will do worse. Why this hate towards non critt classes?

Current PTS patch that is live now For magicka dps:
NB and Templar = khajiit
Sorc, DK and Warden = Altmer / Dunmer

Any class sustain = Breton

All was around the same few % of DPS of each other with their own niches. buffing dunmers, leaving breton and khajiit. For then nerfing Altmers will just make one race a lot weaker than the rest.

Same can be said about orcs and the rest of the stam classes.
And we already have a issue with Templars and NBs being the only viable choice for High-end trial running. These changes will just make it more true.

Dracane

Kikke wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

This. On PTS atm the races was balanced, this will only turn High Elf into a niche glass cannon race, and that is so against the lore. We are supposed the be the ones that brought magic too Tamriel, We were the ones that spread magic too the other races. Now tell me, why is other races better at magic than altmers again?

This change will do one thing: Critt based classes will do better next patch, while non critt classes will do worse. Why this hate towards non critt classes?

I am guessing Dunmer will be tuned up to 2k magicka and stamina or close enough to it. So what's the point in choosing Altmer ? Dunmer has so many stats and benefits even now. Now we presumibly even loose our sustain ?
I am tired of Halfbloods and impure Mer getting the better of us all the time.

The racials were perfect. There was no change needed except for Imperials maybe.
Of course the Morrowind fanatics get the cake once again. Let's just ignore all lore. Let's make Dunmer the best of everything.

Kikke

Is this maybe a new form of racism against Altmers?

IronWooshu

I dont understand at all....

Damage modifiers on races will always be more important than tanking or healing passive's since DPS players want to squeeze every bit of damage possible out while ANY race can pick up a sword and shield and tank with ease.

Nord has no damage, they are at the bottom of the damage tree in Stamina and Magicka yet a racial that generates ultimate only when taking damage is potentially broken? If anything as a tank, I am not always taking damage so I might not even get the full effect of the passive to begin with. As stated like Alcast mentioned, if we are to hold our war horn than the passive once again makes no difference to any other race. What if my trial group wants to run multiple war horns one after the other, unless everyone is Nord the one Nord tank is going to have to hold off and wait or there may be a gap in War Horn uptime.

Yet Nord is what you're worried about? Not Redguard who can permanently block with their crazy OP sustain and will become BiS for tanks and if that happens what does Nord really have going for them? Worst DPS, 2nd or 3rd best tank, maybe last depending on Imperials changes. Worst healers with no sustain, no sustain for any role really.

1k health? 500 more than Orc and Dark Elf who have crazy damage to go with them.

We are going right back to where we are now, weak options all around. I am pretty sure Alcast is the only rep that likes Nord. They seem very underrepresented on these boards and even in game.

It's sad really and top DPS races are getting more buffs to their DPS.

Help me understand?

TL/DR: Nord is already the last choice for DPS end game which means we are being forced into a tank role (the opposite of what you wanted with every race for any role) they have no sustain for healers but if the ult makes them BiS healers that really takes the "big tough nord" image out of whack and really hurts my pride with my Nord being reduced to a heal bot (my least favorite role). The more you scale other races damage, the further Nord falls down to only one option tank and if we can't even be best at that we are reduced to pure end game healers.

How is that balance? I bet currently on live 0.01% of Nord players rolled a Nord to heal.

@Joy_Division @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hotdog_23

Sounds good and thanks to everyone involved.

olsborg

Yay. Snipe being looked at, made my day

Dracane

Kikke wrote: »

Is this maybe a new form of racism against Altmers?

Of course. Because all the Dragonknights enraged and complained how poor Dunmer is now.
In return, there is nobody left to defend Altmer, because there are no Sorcerers anymore.

Look, I understand that Dunmer lost a part of their identity. They should have been given flame damage instead. But giving them the same magicka and spell damage as Altmer, is unheard of.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Time stop at 8100 kills useage by pve tanks.

Kalle_Demos

I'm glad you have been reading our reactions to the changes but I really think you are missing the mark especially with the Dunmer and Bosmer. Bosmer stealth and Dunmer affinity for Destruction Magic are THE traits that have always defined them. The traits that made them unique in ESO. Giving Dunmer generic damage and telling Bosmer they can get stealth from somewhere else is ignoring the heart of the initial concern many players had, is contrary to Lore, makes the game less diverse and erases huge chunks of racial identity. Why would anyone want to play these races when they could choose another that can do everything they can but better? I really do not see how the proposed changes help you achieve the goals they set out to meet in these cases.

Kikke

Buffing Dunmers, when they already have the mosts pure stats of all the races. Amazing.
Buffing Argonians, So they will be the same as live. no change... lol.
Nerfing everything that people was hyped for...
Leave those races people yelled was OP (looking at you Redguard)

We trying to make a new NerfDire Situation it seems. We did not have enough players leave during this period, we gotta do the same again. Mindlessly nerfing and buffing were it does not make sense.

Dracane

Should there ever be a short movie, picturing the event that takes place during the 5th year of the 4th era, I would find myself in joyful tears.
Such beauty and magnificence. Finally, the arrogance of a certain race will be put to an end and they learn their place at last. Too bad it's still such a long way to go from ESO's perspective.

Kikke

Dracane wrote: »

Should there ever be a short movie, picturing the event that takes place during the 5th year of the 4th era, I would find myself in joyful tears.
Such beauty and magnificence. Finally, the arrogance of a certain race will be put to an end and they learn their place at last. Too bad it's still such a long way to go from ESO's perspective.

Agreed

IronWooshu

Kikke wrote: »

Buffing Dunmers, when they already have the mosts pure stats of all the races. Amazing.
Buffing Argonians, So they will be the same as live. no change... lol.
Nerfing everything that people was hyped for...
Leave those races people yelled was OP (looking at you Redguard)

We trying to make a new NerfDire Situation it seems. We did not have enough players leave during this period, we gotta do the same again. Mindlessly nerfing and buffing were it does not make sense.

Yeah I just dont.... why?

They think because they lower health its a justifiable move to add more damage as if health is important in this game when all you need is 36k for trials which you will get just from undaunted passive and plague doctor.

Elves being the most played race and Dark Elves having such a big voice on these forums even if Dark Elf become broken OP the hardest defenders would tell you its alright and with that many voices telling you its alright ZOS will believe it.

GeneralSezme

Is there a reason it takes another update to see the problem with earthgore?

It not only saves players from grave mistakes but also Mitigates all incoming damage for its duration and negates ground placed ultimates that take longer to build up than the cool down of the set.

The set needs to have a flat healing nerf and needs to only proc in direct healing abillities. Not from a cp tree passive or a rapid regen tick.

olsborg

what id love to see nerfed is block casting...oooh how I would love to..

WrathOfInnos

olsborg wrote: »

what id love to see nerfed is block casting...oooh how I would love to..

No thanks, tanks are rare enough already.

Elsterchen

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

While I acknowledge that the price for this skill (and its usefullness) was too low, the new price will shut out stamina players from using either morph. The whole skill line is already mainly magica-based and time stop is a pretty good crowd controll skill, I feel its wrong to only make it available to magica players.

Please reconsider. Maybe one morph of time stop should get stamina costs?

Else, as always: your time and efford is appriciated Class-reps. Please keep it up and going!

Gralor

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

Not only is this skill hardly overpowered in PVP scenarios , it has also been developed with PVE Tanks in mind who have no means of relying on class abilities to CC multiple enemies. It was introduced with Summerset in combination with the Silver Leash change to make Nightblades and Templars e.g. remotely capable of doing what is necessary as a Tank, which is chaining and stacking. Take it away and non-DK Tanks are severely crippled once again.

@Liofa

angeleda

Elsterchen wrote: »

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

While I acknowledge that the price for this skill (and its usefullness) was too low, the new price will shut out stamina players from using either morph. The whole skill line is already mainly magica-based and time stop is a pretty good crowd controll skill, I feel its wrong to only make it available to magica players.

Please reconsider. Maybe one morph of time stop should get stamina costs?

Else, as always: your time and efford is appriciated Class-reps. Please keep it up and going!

Psijic order were magicka based mages....


Also i gotta ask.... WHAT stam char (other than probably a very confused one) even uses timestop in any way shape or form???

Koensol

templesus wrote: »

Snipe is GETTING RE-EXAMINED?!?! HALLELUJAH

Ikr!? This almost feels like justice. So many people have been living in denial when it comes to this skill. I hope it gets completely overhauled into something more balanced and at the same time more useful for bow/bow builds.

Beardimus

Is there an updated list of Class Reps anywhere, and their remit / terms of reference? As aware there have been a few changes of late.

Nice to see race feedback listened to
In combat bug heard
Snipe stacking heard (finally)