[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019

Vapirko

Joy_Division wrote: »

@IronWooshu - My main is a Nord, so I am well aware of your concerns. That being said, the ultimate generation passive is difficult to quantify, so I do think it is best to actually see how Nords play in the next update before declaring the race is under performing or overpowered in any respect. I have waited years for ZOS to make adjustments so they weren't just second-rate tanks. If they are need of more, I most certainly will make it a point.

All who are frustrated with the in-combat bug: You can ask the devs, when this subject came up, I got emotionally about the response and let your frustrations be 1000% crystal clear. There was discussion on this issue and I pushed back probably harder than I should have when the "we're looking into it" response was given.

It became clear to me that yelling at ZOS isn't going to get the bug fixed sooner and they are not going to do away with the in-combat system because they see it as vital to how the game's combat system works. In short, you are going to be stuck in combat and nothing said at the meeting was going to change the reality of that situation.

That being said, these are my suggestions for at least being able to actually play the game stuck in combat. There are things we'd need to do in order to at least try to play the map strategically. ZOS has indicated they are willing to let us do things while in combat, so approach the problem from this angle. If I could do the following three things in combat next patch, I'd take it and wouldn't complain while they hunt down the bug:

1. Use Transitus: Something they already said they see no problem
2. Switch quick slot: I can't see a huge issue here
3. Mount. This one might be tricky. Maybe we can put a penalty (such as the horse having zero stamina) or put in a restriction, such as ten seconds of zero in combat actions, i.e., healing, damaging, debuffing, or buffing.

You're not going to get them to switch skills or gear. If you can chime in on why these actions are needed to play the Cyrodiil map and help convince ZOS to make it so we can do them even in combat, that's our best chance to deal with being stuck in combat.

An argument for quick slots relates to siege. Let’s say you’re riding to defend a keep, you get tagged outside by an opponent or fight someone on the way in and then you’re stuck in combat for the next few minutes unable to switch out appropriate siege types or forward camps which means you can’t adequately defend. Or if you need to buy new siege you can’t put them in Quickslots. This also goes for arriving at a siege and being unable to slot a ram or whatever because you accidentally walked over an AoE, go hit with ranged ability from up top or a guard or whatever. It just generally lowers the ability to play and sometimes prevents contributing to a siege or defense in a meaningful way.

Additionally if you cannot mount you cannot ride to a flagged keep which is perhaps the most frustrating thing.

Fake Remedy

I really hope the crown store isn’t effected by any of these changes...

Czekoludek

More good gear options for stamina (I'm tired of Relequen meta and many players feel the same), positive changes for 1H enchants, overall more love for stam. That's all I am asking... Pretty please ZoS

Vapirko

I’m a it confused about the possible orc changes. We’re getting higher max Stam at the expense of Stam return on attack, and then we’re gettinf lower overall health in exchange for health return? Except we already had health return in the patch notes. So this kind of feels like an overall nerf still. The extra health is really important to PvP and how does having max health encroach on redguard territory? Sounds like we will just have to allocate some more points to health and it’ll be the same in the end minus Stam return. The max health should probably stay the same.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Overall good set of changes, imo.

Nice to hear Arena weapons will be re-evaluated, although the wording makes it sound like it will come after update 22, which is an awfully long time.

Altmer and Orc really shouldn't get any adjustments to their current racials. The balance of damage:sustain is just right and makes them competitive.

I like the max Stam in exchange for the Stam return but I really don’t want to trade more max health away too.

The loss of stam restore passive is going to necessitate the slotting of 1 additional jewelry regen glyph (at the cost of a WD glyph) on a PvP build to break-even after this change.

There's no way the increase to max stam is going to compensate fully for that. They'd need to buff the Orc max stam passive up to about 2k, since WD scales so much better than stam, especially on a medium build.

And with the loss in effective weapon damage, your heal tooltips are going to drop, and that's going to erode the compensatory buff to healing, too.

My best estimate is that it'll be a net nerf to Orc. We'll wait til tomorrow to see, though.

I’m not worried about the Stam return loss. I don’t need it as is and it was only while attacking good for PvE, bad for PvP. But as I said above I am worried about further nerfing max health. There’s no current stamina return passive so it would be the same as it is now without.

Eirella

Wow, lots of great stuff here! For the first time in a while I'm feeling really positive about upcoming changes! Keep up the good work

Kesstryl

Whelp, I was thinking about making an Altmer Templar off meta tank with that option to stamina sustain, but if they take that away, this will not happen. What happened to diversifying roles and play styles with these updates? Some races are being forced into roles even more. I like the direction of diversifying races, but some of the race changes in general are not doing that. So far the changes to Khajiit, Altmer, Nord, and Dunmer would have diversified roles (with the exception that Nord tank might have become BiS, though it opened them up to healer roles also) and I liked this. We still don't have any good passives for Spinner Bosmer (magika roles), or Orcs, or Redguard. Why keep them in specific roles? Some of us don't want to look the same as everyone else with our roles (all tanks shouldn't have to be white, horn blowing humans or reptilian potion drinkers. Why not a golden skin altmer that can block more with a stamina boost?)

frostz417

Okay all this is amazing..... but there’s only one issue... snares and root spamming. That needs to be addressed.

macsmooth

frostz417 wrote: »

Okay all this is amazing..... but there’s only one issue... snares and root spamming. That needs to be addressed.

But they have addressed the issue they gave you
Mighty Glacier so now you can have the Wardens frost cloak as well

ThePainGuy

Thank you Zos and class reps for the update on some of the fixes and concerns to be address in the near future. One thing I want to point out is that per the notes: Zos is looking to move stealth/sneak passives off of racial passives to somewhere else to open it to a wider audience. I ask that you look at medium armor improved sneak passive also. This passive is not useful in high level PVE or PVP combat/game play. Please look into providing a stat that benefits all playstyles in medium armor. I am not advocating removing the current stats under improved sneak passive, just adding something like increase stamina by 200 for each piece of medium armor worn for example. Light and heavy armor have 5 passives that are useful for all PVE/PVP combat while medium has 4. Thanks again for the update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @Joy_Division @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

@IronWooshu - My main is a Nord, so I am well aware of your concerns. That being said, the ultimate generation passive is difficult to quantify, so I do think it is best to actually see how Nords play in the next update before declaring the race is under performing or overpowered in any respect. I have waited years for ZOS to make adjustments so they weren't just second-rate tanks. If they are need of more, I most certainly will make it a point.

All who are frustrated with the in-combat bug: You can ask the devs, when this subject came up, I got emotionally about the response and let your frustrations be 1000% crystal clear. There was discussion on this issue and I pushed back probably harder than I should have when the "we're looking into it" response was given.

It became clear to me that yelling at ZOS isn't going to get the bug fixed sooner and they are not going to do away with the in-combat system because they see it as vital to how the game's combat system works. In short, you are going to be stuck in combat and nothing said at the meeting was going to change the reality of that situation.

That being said, these are my suggestions for at least being able to actually play the game stuck in combat. There are things we'd need to do in order to at least try to play the map strategically. ZOS has indicated they are willing to let us do things while in combat, so approach the problem from this angle. If I could do the following three things in combat next patch, I'd take it and wouldn't complain while they hunt down the bug:

1. Use Transitus: Something they already said they see no problem
2. Switch quick slot: I can't see a huge issue here
3. Mount. This one might be tricky. Maybe we can put a penalty (such as the horse having zero stamina) or put in a restriction, such as ten seconds of zero in combat actions, i.e., healing, damaging, debuffing, or buffing, before being eligible to mount..

You're not going to get them to switch skills or gear. If you can chime in on why these actions are needed to play the Cyrodiil map and help convince ZOS to make it so we can do them even in combat, that's our best chance to deal with being stuck in combat.

Mount does have penalty; you get stunned if horse Stam drops to zero and it takesa few seconds to mount anyway.

They need to delete the CP passive that negateshorse Stam costs and let us mount in combat. Now that summerset mounted set makes sense lol

Zer0oo

they know that with the sustain of breton you will get higher dps on most classes than any other race including altmer.

The altmer passive sustain passive was quite bad. It gave fixed returns on skill activation which do not get buffed by passives and only work well on builds who use a lot of class skills. (RIP mag sorcs and healers+tanks) The passive is realistic (7-8 sec) 70-80 mag /sec but this gets not amplified by % of light armor, cp, sets pots,
so with light armor+pot(40% more reg) you just need 100-115 mag reg to match this passive in sustain aka the free mag reg bretons get on top to their resistances. It just gets worse for classes who use more weapon skills than class one. see mag sorc, stam dds, healers and tanks

The defensive passive of altmer was also extreme weak and only useful on templers.


No band-aid-fix for the incombat bug. /facepalm

They made it bug so bad with all the changes in the last big update and even worse with all the changes what you can not do while in "combat". Maybe just undo the stupid changes till you find a better way


Edit:
how to fix the combat bug 101:

player does not take damage or does damage for 20 sec -> out of combat till he either takes or does damage

Galarthor

Joy_Division wrote: »

All who are frustrated with the in-combat bug: You can ask the devs, when this subject came up, I got emotionally about the response and let your frustrations be 1000% crystal clear. There was discussion on this issue and I pushed back probably harder than I should have when the "we're looking into it" response was given.

By now I am pretty sure "it" is a glass and ZOS has been looking into it far too deep and far too long.

As for the in-combat bug:
Why can't we just revert those changes that brought back this bug, until ZOS has figured out how to properly fix it. We had quite a decent time between in-combat bugs being in the game where we were able to get quickly out of combat if we did take and deal any damage for, i think it was, 30 seconds.

Being able to use transitus and change quickslots would definitely help. Yet with keeps often burning or being cut, I find that not being able to mount is actually the biggest issue of the in-combat bug.

And ZOS not taking it serious is really infuriating. It has been around for close to a year now and all we get is the occasional "we are looking into it" once a quarter or so. That's just not good enough!

MartiniDaniels

Dracane wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The Altmer statement does sound rather negative. Spell Recharge is far behind the cost reduction and the 100 magicka regen of Breton. So Breton has the best sustain. Altmer lore wise, are the most enduring mages and have quick magicka recovery. So removing it completely seems like a very negative thing to do.

I was expecting spell recharge to get tuned up a bit, rather than being removed completely.

This. On PTS atm the races was balanced, this will only turn High Elf into a niche glass cannon race, and that is so against the lore. We are supposed the be the ones that brought magic too Tamriel, We were the ones that spread magic too the other races. Now tell me, why is other races better at magic than altmers again?

This change will do one thing: Critt based classes will do better next patch, while non critt classes will do worse. Why this hate towards non critt classes?

I am guessing Dunmer will be tuned up to 2k magicka and stamina or close enough to it. So what's the point in choosing Altmer ? Dunmer has so many stats and benefits even now. Now we presumibly even loose our sustain ?
I am tired of Halfbloods and impure Mer getting the better of us all the time.

The racials were perfect. There was no change needed except for Imperials maybe.
Of course the Morrowind fanatics get the cake once again. Let's just ignore all lore. Let's make Dunmer the best of everything.

Even if they increase dunmer magicka to 2k, dark elves will still be without sustain passive and so altmer will be slightly superior as magdps.

silvereyes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high....

Will be interesting to see where this lands. I agree that where it is on PTS, it's overperforming as a hit-and-run option.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation.

Guess I'll wait for specifics, but mixing evasion with more damage seems like it could be really powerful.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Any response to the fact that their new bonus to detecting stealthed players/npcs is not really useful to anyone?

kyle.wilson

Minno wrote: »

angeleda wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Time Stop: ZOS is raising the cost to 8100 magicka and indicated they are willing to make further adjustments If necessary.

While I acknowledge that the price for this skill (and its usefullness) was too low, the new price will shut out stamina players from using either morph. The whole skill line is already mainly magica-based and time stop is a pretty good crowd controll skill, I feel its wrong to only make it available to magica players.

Please reconsider. Maybe one morph of time stop should get stamina costs?

Else, as always: your time and efford is appriciated Class-reps. Please keep it up and going!

Psijic order were magicka based mages....


Also i gotta ask.... WHAT stam char (other than probably a very confused one) even uses timestop in any way shape or form???

Cyro zerglings trying to protect his xv1 tool lol

Well, the massive stamina cost for Rapids, pretty much locks it out for every mag build.

Schattenfluegel

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

What's up with all these changes to the races? They were in a good spot for the most part! I mean even Redguards are getting buffs ... lol?

And what's up with the Altmer changes? Sustain has been horrible since Morrowind and now you want to take even more sustain away? Spell Recharge will have to be a huge damage boost in order to allow Altmers to compensate that lack of sustain with specialized gear - i.e. 2 regen sets instead of 1 and/or entire jewelry enchants geared towards sustain. Bretons were already the better choice prior to these changes ...

I actually can't believe that the 2 best damage races, Dunmer and Redguard get further buffs while Altmer is made worse.
I bet the replacement for Spell Recharge will be an extremely niche passive that has no combat impact at all. And redguards get 1k stamina every 5 seconds.

Problem is...Redguard was never a DMG Race. It was choosen because it has the best Support avaible after the Morrowind Sustain Nerf. You cant sustain a Stamsorc without being Redguard...

Best Dmg Race is Khajit on Live.

Lord-Otto

Joy_Division wrote: »

@IronWooshu - My main is a Nord, so I am well aware of your concerns. That being said, the ultimate generation passive is difficult to quantify, so I do think it is best to actually see how Nords play in the next update before declaring the race is under performing or overpowered in any respect. I have waited years for ZOS to make adjustments so they weren't just second-rate tanks. If they are need of more, I most certainly will make it a point.

All who are frustrated with the in-combat bug: You can ask the devs, when this subject came up, I got emotionally about the response and let your frustrations be 1000% crystal clear. There was discussion on this issue and I pushed back probably harder than I should have when the "we're looking into it" response was given.

It became clear to me that yelling at ZOS isn't going to get the bug fixed sooner and they are not going to do away with the in-combat system because they see it as vital to how the game's combat system works. In short, you are going to be stuck in combat and nothing said at the meeting was going to change the reality of that situation.

That being said, these are my suggestions for at least being able to actually play the game stuck in combat. There are things we'd need to do in order to at least try to play the map strategically. ZOS has indicated they are willing to let us do things while in combat, so approach the problem from this angle. If I could do the following three things in combat next patch, I'd take it and wouldn't complain while they hunt down the bug:

1. Use Transitus: Something they already said they see no problem
2. Switch quick slot: I can't see a huge issue here
3. Mount. This one might be tricky. Maybe we can put a penalty (such as the horse having zero stamina) or put in a restriction, such as ten seconds of zero in combat actions, i.e., healing, damaging, debuffing, or buffing, before being eligible to mount..

You're not going to get them to switch skills or gear. If you can chime in on why these actions are needed to play the Cyrodiil map and help convince ZOS to make it so we can do them even in combat, that's our best chance to deal with being stuck in combat.

Well, thank you for trying! It is very comforting to know you gave it everything. Figured as much from the notes, it was between the lines. And don't feel bad about being too pushy, sometimes you gotta go to the limit. We're not here to bake cookies and chant Cumba Ja!
(^_-)

Needless to say, I disagree with ZOS' stance on the matter and certainly don't consider it "vital" that I can't swap my Rapids out after my ally engaged a puppy.
Maybe I'll think about the compromises that are asked for.

MartiniDaniels

silvereyes wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high....

Will be interesting to see where this lands. I agree that where it is on PTS, it's overperforming as a hit-and-run option.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation.

Guess I'll wait for specifics, but mixing evasion with more damage seems like it could be really powerful.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Any response to the fact that their new bonus to detecting stealthed players/npcs is not really useful to anyone?

Well, you are right about damage bonus and overall this makes all races almost the same with slight variations. I know nobody wants this, but my opinion that bosmer should be like best passive sustain race, so instead of additional damage it will be nice to have bonus to magickal recovery, it will be good for pvp for cloak, won;t make bosmer imbalanced in pve dps and will at least give a little something to bosmer healers.

Irylia

Lord_Zele wrote: »

And to think I actually turned down being a class rep.
BIG SAD.

Sure thing bud.

Earthgore should
1. Only remove non ult ground effect(s)
2. Only heal one player

susmitds

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high....

Will be interesting to see where this lands. I agree that where it is on PTS, it's overperforming as a hit-and-run option.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation.

Guess I'll wait for specifics, but mixing evasion with more damage seems like it could be really powerful.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• ... Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

Any response to the fact that their new bonus to detecting stealthed players/npcs is not really useful to anyone?

Well, you are right about damage bonus and overall this makes all races almost the same with slight variations. I know nobody wants this, but my opinion that bosmer should be like best passive sustain race, so instead of additional damage it will be nice to have bonus to magickal recovery, it will be good for pvp for cloak, won;t make bosmer imbalanced in pve dps and will at least give a little something to bosmer healers.

Then might as well delete other races' stamNBs. I think they should get like 2-3m extra range on Bow Skills after dodge.

Zer0oo

Also fix EU BG QUES during prime time

DBZVelena

mace vs maze.

A mace is a weapon.

A maze is a type of labyrinth.

So unless i missed it, those skeevatons were not clobberin things last friday during the twitch stream. XD

FeaR Turbo

Roboplus wrote: »

You're efforts are appreciated. However-

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Basically if something has been identified as a pain point that has not been addressed yet, it was repeated. Also, and this is important, we planned to have another meeting with the Devs right after the PTS to get into nitty gritty about classes. In short, even if your class concerns aren’t going to show up on the PTS, they absolutely will get communicated in detail long before ZOS puts up the PTS for Elsweyr. Hang in there.

I've yet to see NB tanks mentioned in any of these posts.

Gonna go ahead and not believe you.

Although they were not typed word for word what we talk about. Somethings are under NDA but be have talked about Nightblade tanking. I quite enjoy the diversity that nightblade tanking offers myself! I would love to hear your feedback on NB tanking. You can join my discord or ping me on the forums. Cheers!

FeaR Turbo

Rake wrote: »

"Altmer will be strongest magicka DD" - ok for reps and zos
"Redguard will be best in sustain for stamina" - ok for reps and zos
"Breton will be best for sustain for magicka" - ok for reps and zos
"Nord is op for 0.5 ultimate per second, need to be nerfed or all tanks will be Nords" - LOL
So nerfing race that was worst for 4+ years, while buffing poor imperials and removing nerfs from best tanks on live - Argonians.

All that because top 1% of PvE community will run nords as tanks.
Feels unfair to players that run Nords.

On the other hand, cant wait to see Dunmer changes.

Nord was left unchanged. We also stated that the ult gen is requiring you to take damage at all times and use horn on CD which doesn't happen. Alcast and myself agreed to that for PvE tanking in the top 1%.

FeaR Turbo

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

NORD: However, before just nerfing or changing it, they would like to see some actual gameplay to see if these concerns come about.


Come on man!

FeaR Turbo

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

Go and test Orc now, and compare their Sustain when the Brawler passive gets gutted tomorrow...

Orc was a great Stamina DPS race on 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 and by the looks of it, it will be gutted to be the new Nord...

I think it will be the opposite brother, (;

FeaR Turbo

eso_lags wrote: »

Where is the balance? I dont see it. You want orc to be a brawler but you are giving us 500 max stam and health. While other races get much more. Argonian, 3% is 1k max mag. Nord, 6% stam is 1500. Dunmer, 6% is 1250 stam. Orc is 6% to 500 health/stam... Im confused..

But maybe we'll get a bit more stam but less health.. Why not just give the race some healing passives, with the damage, so we can brawl. Because right now id be much better off brawling on an argonian which is apparently getting buffed with more potion resource return and more healing?? If i read that right.. Thats amazing. 4650 down to 3600.. Whats it going to go to 4k? And the healing. 5%-4%, does that go back to 5 or higher?

It doesnt seem like balance. It seems like some races, like some classes, are left out a bit.. Hopefully im wrong, but from what im gathering from this post, orc will be getting a bit more stam and will be losing the health (which im not sure how we lose health from 500) and the stam return on unflinching.. Will we be getting something else instead of that stam return?

PTS Monday! Changes for Orcs coming brother.

susmitds

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

Go and test Orc now, and compare their Sustain when the Brawler passive gets gutted tomorrow...

Orc was a great Stamina DPS race on 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 and by the looks of it, it will be gutted to be the new Nord...

I think it will be the opposite brother, (;

2K stam confirmed?

FeaR Turbo

susmitds wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

Go and test Orc now, and compare their Sustain when the Brawler passive gets gutted tomorrow...

Orc was a great Stamina DPS race on 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 and by the looks of it, it will be gutted to be the new Nord...

I think it will be the opposite brother, (;

2K stam confirmed?

Lord_Eomer

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Balance was actually somewhat decent on the PTS, this will make it worse from the looks of it.

Dunmer OP, Altmer useless and nerfs to the poor Nords? Really?

Go and test Orc now, and compare their Sustain when the Brawler passive gets gutted tomorrow...

Orc was a great Stamina DPS race on 4.3.0 and 4.3.1 and by the looks of it, it will be gutted to be the new Nord...

I think it will be the opposite brother, (;

With Stam Sustain Nerf it will never be same, orc should keep sustain passive.