Patch Notes Rapid Feedback

Beardimus

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ball groups crying over rapids... priceless...

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Ball groups crying over rapids... priceless...

Spot on

Galarthor

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Alliance War

Assault
Vigor: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs were unintentionally proccing abilities with a ranged attack prerequisite.
Rapid Maneuvers: This ability and its morphs will no longer provide immunity to snares or immobilizes.
Retreating Maneuvers: This morph will no longer remove current snares or immobilizes, and will instead grant affected allies a bonus that reduces their damage taken from behind by 15%.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler

After the changes to Major Expedition in Update 20, we wanted to make sure all abilities that provided the buff were given the same pass, yet Rapid Maneuvers was left untouched. We wanted to spend more time fleshing out a new identity for this ability, while still retaining the unique group play it enabled. Since the removal of snares and immobilizes is such a powerful tool, we removed that function from this skill since it was allowing large groups to ignore incorporating those types of abilities in their individual builds. We repurposed Retreating Maneuvers for something that was strictly defensive, as the name implied, so you’ll now take less damage when being attacked from the backside as you reposition or retreat.

How detached from your game are you?

Who cares about their damage taken from behind? How should that work anyway with that miserable performance in Cyrodiil? And who wants to even use that crap?

How should that new morph "retain" the unique group play it enabled? Who the hell was using that skill outside of an organized group anyway? It is too expensive outside such a group anyway. And obviously, it won't provide that "unique group play".

By changing this skill you simply push more to numbers instead of group play. If there are way more opponents than you, you'll lose the fight anyway because they are more. Nothing else will matter... Just stack with your faction and run down the factions with less players...

Ball Groups / Zergs care! And the 15% reduced damage will be a massive buff to them. ZOS should limit the 15% damage reduction to 2 players or the caster!

IxSTALKERxI

Recremen wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

No rapids being used here lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xD2cBrYUQ

Nice bombs, but we all know that farming nubs on the bridge or back flag doesn't require much in the way of movement. Keep taking/defense, open field fights, and other situations requiring a lot of movement over a large area are where snare and immobilize purging becomes very important. When you're just repositioning a few feet around a corner it's not a big deal, but when you have multiple raids coming at you out in the field from different directions, you need to be able to dot the i if you're going to make it. And even in the video, it's easy to see that some extra movement might have helped you stop the ressers better and actually win the full fight. You had a great thing going and were keeping the bodies all nice and lined up, but it looked like you just couldn't make it back and forth fast enough to properly kill all the zombies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbd_dVaJ65I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCJ7pUVEMw

No rapids spam.

Like, I haven't had the luxury of having rapids in years, and I have still been successful in open field and keeps...

My point was mainly aimed at people in the thread rejoicing that organized groups are dead from this change lol.

IxSTALKERxI

Also if you have a Sorc + warden only group it's actually better than rapids haha.

Vapirko

Rake wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

mfw players that are overjoyed with this change think they will survive groups that used this skill from now on

every time a player from a ball group gets cc'd, wrecked, and left behind as their group is trying to disengage i will think of this post

Every time a player gets wrecked by a zerg bal after this change and cries for even more nerfs, I will remember this post.

Again I get the removing the group CC immunity (needs to be individual) but honestly this will not stop zergs and it will not stop players from getting stomped and crying for nerfs again.

that's fine. better players should win fights, given they're skilled and organized enough. better players should not have an absurd advantage like rapids gave them though, nor should they need that advantage to win fights.

>absurd advantage

wtf, do players outside ball groups have no access to rapids?

This is the answer a ball group zerger would give and the reason we assume most of you only spam one or two skills? Ever try playing solo or small scale? Tell me exactly where there’s room on your bar for rapids? You need every single skill to survive and you need to use all of them always, rapids, while obviously good, doesn’t fit into the “necessary” category.

Rake

Vapirko wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

mfw players that are overjoyed with this change think they will survive groups that used this skill from now on

every time a player from a ball group gets cc'd, wrecked, and left behind as their group is trying to disengage i will think of this post

Every time a player gets wrecked by a zerg bal after this change and cries for even more nerfs, I will remember this post.

Again I get the removing the group CC immunity (needs to be individual) but honestly this will not stop zergs and it will not stop players from getting stomped and crying for nerfs again.

that's fine. better players should win fights, given they're skilled and organized enough. better players should not have an absurd advantage like rapids gave them though, nor should they need that advantage to win fights.

>absurd advantage

wtf, do players outside ball groups have no access to rapids?

This is the answer a ball group zerger would give and the reason we assume most of you only spam one or two skills? Ever try playing solo or small scale? Tell me exactly where there’s room on your bar for rapids? You need every single skill to survive and you need to use all of them always, rapids, while obviously good, doesn’t fit into the “necessary” category.

Small scale was heavily nerfed last patch with nerfs to speed. Same with solo playing, unless you are ganker. Did you enjoy that as well? or are you one of players in 2 heavy damage sets waiting for group lead to command ulti dump? And after that tbagging poor cp 100-300 your glorious tactics melted?

macsmooth

Does this mean while I am mount running from one keep to another I won’t be getting ganked in the back by a stamblade or magsorc and I can just keep running through the now minus 15% damage to poison arrow and curse

I actually used this skill for immunity to snares but if it means the above instead I might like it still and solve the snare issue another way

Ps what defines an attack from behind? If someone hits me from my side is that still behind or front where is the arc window and if I get hit from behind by a dot and I turn to face them is it still behind dot damage or does it change

Rake

You can easily be dismounted by skill such as FG chains

macsmooth

Rake wrote: »

You can easily be dismounted by skill such as FG chains

I must be really lucky or I just meet poison arrow and curse all the time, I can honestly say I have never been pulled of the mount by that skill

It’s interesting as I have a build I do use that skill on

PapaWeeb

Oh this is priceless.

Ball groups are the main offenders for spamming permafrost, ice blockade and other AoE snares. Now you've got to slot forward momentum or shuffle like the rest of us mortals and you cry about it?

Rake

macsmooth wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

You can easily be dismounted by skill such as FG chains

I must be really lucky or I just meet poison arrow and curse all the time, I can honestly say I have never been pulled of the mount by that skill

It’s interesting as I have a build I do use that skill on

It chains person and a mount to you, and snare them. After that even light attacks bring the rider down.

Diundriel

I would appreciate to have more ball groups @Mayrael
fighting another good ball group is much more interesting than farming randoms,.

but there are just a few good ones left which are interesting to duel

Mayrael

Diundriel wrote: »

I would appreciate to have more ball groups @Mayrael
fighting another good ball group is much more interesting than farming randoms,.

but there are just a few good ones left which are interesting to duel

@Diundriel I can understand that because you're right, especially during last month's I haven't seen any decent ballgroup. Unfortunately after years of disappointments best guilds left ESO and there is simply not enough of these. Usually they just switch alliances to have some fun but there is no competition for them, but it doesn't justify farming unaware players at keeps.

"Unaware" because they don't know that the only thing that can currently stop good ballgroup is other ballgroup.

BringerOfOmens

There is, and not only with this game, a serious issue when PVE and PVP environments are co-mingled and gear and/or abilities are available for use in either situation.

This change to rapids fixes a specific situation in the PVP environment but it also diminishes its overall use. It makes the morph abilities for PVE applications laughable at best.

I have noticed in dungeons and delves there seems to be a movement reduction applied to the environment. Characters simply move slower in those environments (if this is not intended, please correct it). Assuming it is intended, the outfitting of the majority of npcs within those environments with snares, slows, etc is very heavy handed. Retreating manuevers has been a slotted ability to counter some of this overuse of movement detriment.

What universal alternative is there for PVE application?

ATomiX96

Also I feel like most people have different definitions of "ballgroups", my definition of a ballgroups is a 8-14 man groups seeking fights while being outnumbered by the opposing faction far away from hotspots where there are no pugs and everyone has a dedicated role / build, communication via voice chat etc.
And not those 16-24 man in group of which 8 are 30k hp healbots + 30 pugs swarming around them "ballgroups" which are running from one emp keep to another and killing singular players by spamming light attack and execute on them.

jaws343

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Also I feel like most people have different definitions of "ballgroups", my definition of a ballgroups is a 8-14 man groups seeking fights while being outnumbered by the opposing faction far away from hotspots where there are no pugs and everyone has a dedicated role / build, communication via voice chat etc.
And not those 16-24 man in group of which 8 are 30k hp healbots + 30 pugs swarming around them "ballgroups" which are running from one emp keep to another and killing singular players by spamming light attack and execute on them.

Whenever I think of Ball groups I think of those 24 player groups that run back and forth on a resource, up the tower and then through the flag, killing everyone there and then waiting for the resses to happen, and sweeping back in, over and over like a pendulum. Or they swing back and forth at the top of a keep, also waiting for resses and then killing the players again. I watched a ball group in Sej this past weekend just circled the inside of the outpost farming players for like 30 minutes, not even trying to take the keep themselves. Very little actual skill involved, just AOE, roots and ultimate spam over and over again.

The small to mid-sized groups that are seeking fights deep in enemy territory and taking back keeps are more just organized groups in my opinion and are far healthier for the game than the mindless skill spam pug farmers.

ltownsend1808

@Mayrael All of the guilds I know on EU actively seek out GVG fights and often detach from the main fray of cyro to have these battles (for example Slack Squad vs Cyrodiil's Fist last night).

As i've mentioned in an earlier post, I'm not asking ZOS to change Retreating Maneuver back, however when organised raid groups remain as strong as ever I want people to understand why. So next patch I will expect to still see the typical "nerf ball groups" thread. Furthermore, reducing an organised groups ability to move will force us to play more in keeps, outposts and towers, something that many in this thread seem to hate.

Instead of reducing Rapid Maneuver to just something to use while riding, why don't we collectively think of a way to make this skill viable for the average PVP player instead of just raid groups.

Perhaps something like reducing the cost, duration and number of players the skill goes to (to maybe 4 including caster) could be one morph. This would help out smallscale and solo players for a quick escape or to relocate the fight.

The other morph could stay similar to it is now, high cost, capped at 12 but maybe also reduce the snare immunity to 2 or 3 seconds and cap the number of snares it can remove.

At the moment this skill is mainly a riding tool (with an addon to help this haha) and used by raid groups, which is perceived as a pretty niche group. Also who uses charging maneuver? This morph is very underwhelming compared to the retreating morph. I would love to see a rework of this skill to see it used by more people, rather than nerfing it and ultimately making it only a riding tool.

Kuramas9tails

I two man Cyrodiil and I don't like this change.

zyk

It's not like this is the end of ball groups. Some will hardly seem affected.

What I like is that ball group players will need to be less sloppy. When they make mistakes that separate them from their groups, it will be more difficult for them to recover.

IMO, this had to happen after the recent overall nerf to mobility.

technohic

zyk wrote: »

It's not like this is the end of ball groups. Some will hardly seem affected.

What I like is that ball group players will need to be less sloppy. When they make mistakes that separate them from their groups, it will be more difficult for them to recover.

IMO, this had to happen after the recent overall nerf to mobility.

Im assuming more purge will take care of the roots. Probably will still need rapids for the speed thats breaking every time a buff or ability goes off.

Sandman929

technohic wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's not like this is the end of ball groups. Some will hardly seem affected.

What I like is that ball group players will need to be less sloppy. When they make mistakes that separate them from their groups, it will be more difficult for them to recover.

IMO, this had to happen after the recent overall nerf to mobility.

Im assuming more purge will take care of the roots. Probably will still need rapids for the speed thats breaking every time a buff or ability goes off.

More purging for sure. NBs have a nice AoE expedition with path of darkness, but since it doesn't have snare/root removal it wasn't as useful...until now.

technohic

Sandman929 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's not like this is the end of ball groups. Some will hardly seem affected.

What I like is that ball group players will need to be less sloppy. When they make mistakes that separate them from their groups, it will be more difficult for them to recover.

IMO, this had to happen after the recent overall nerf to mobility.

Im assuming more purge will take care of the roots. Probably will still need rapids for the speed thats breaking every time a buff or ability goes off.

More purging for sure. NBs have a nice AoE expedition with path of darkness, but since it doesn't have snare/root removal it wasn't as useful...until now.

So probably wont be that big of deal and at most will dilute purges as there will be more effects on a given target to remove. People will have to stay on the path and it has to be aimed though. Sounds reasonable to expect organized groups to have to be really organized in direction.

Sandman929

This change is likely going to happen. The people that hate group play will celebrate right up until they still die to an organized group despite the fact that they dropped their OP Dawnbreaker on them, and the people that like group play can keep complaining about it, but it's probably going to happen exactly how it's worded right now.
It'd be nice to see some options that people are considering, especially from other group players who can appreciate the fact that everyone in their raid running Forward Momentum is a pretty stupid idea.

MipMip

Diundriel wrote: »

I would appreciate to have more ball groups @Mayrael
fighting another good ball group is much more interesting than farming randoms,.

but there are just a few good ones left which are interesting to duel

^^ see quote in my signature, and yes, fights with other ball groups are the most interesting fights

Rake

technohic wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's not like this is the end of ball groups. Some will hardly seem affected.

What I like is that ball group players will need to be less sloppy. When they make mistakes that separate them from their groups, it will be more difficult for them to recover.

IMO, this had to happen after the recent overall nerf to mobility.

Im assuming more purge will take care of the roots. Probably will still need rapids for the speed thats breaking every time a buff or ability goes off.

Purge will work, yeah, but not on caltrops and wall of ice etc. But you already know that, as someone who play only solo, right?

technohic

Sandman929 wrote: »

This change is likely going to happen. The people that hate group play will celebrate right up until they still die to an organized group despite the fact that they dropped their OP Dawnbreaker on them, and the people that like group play can keep complaining about it, but it's probably going to happen exactly how it's worded right now.
It'd be nice to see some options that people are considering, especially from other group players who can appreciate the fact that everyone in their raid running Forward Momentum is a pretty stupid idea.

A recourse timer on roots and snares would be nice regardless of how they are removed. Right now, only roll dodge gives it to roots and that does favor stam still and does not always feel reliable. I am as disappointed as anyone that there was no notes to address the overarching issue there but so long as we all have to deal with it in some way, its at least fair. There's still plenty a good group is going to do to not notice it, but I hope the bad ones thin out a bit. And there are plenty of bad ones.

One problem though; is as soon as they make it to where CC, roots, and snares are more manageable; good players are going to be even harder to kill and there are already stalemates without coordinated CC and ulti dumps.

MipMip

ltownsend1808 wrote: »

@Rygonix The best counter to an organised group, is another organised group. Have you ever tried assembling a few friends, co-ordinating ultimates (especially negates), placing siege on crucial areas like flags of keeps? You do these things and I guarantee you that you'll impact that fight. If you can negate a purger and a healer, while the group is under high pressure from sieges, and drop some offensive ultimates you'll most likely kill someone or force some defensive ultimates to be used by said ball group. You have many skills also available to help with this such as; Time stop, inevitable detonation (can be cast from range and if purged still does damage- few of these on a tightly packed group really hits hard!), aoe stuns (streak, volcanic rune, manifestation of terror) to name a few. Not to mention all the damage from your other abilities. You do not need to kill us all at once but rather killing one or two is the beginning of the end for most raid groups due to everyone having critical roles that the group relies on.

Furthermore, I feel that PVP raiding often gets unfairly criticised with comments such as "they just spam one button" or "they run broken sets". In my experience this couldn't be further from the truth. Similar to PVE raiding, we have to optimise our group with sets that buff our groups damage and survivability. Sets like Ebon, Worm, Hircine, Sanctuary, Olorime, Transmutation and Meritorious Service (which from the patch notes sounds like it has been fixed now to proc correctly off of purge, both morphs). Other sets such as Thurvokun are used to debuff the enemy making it harder for them to heal and to do less damage. Deciding on jewellery traits also is a factor, with harmony being very popular due to its ability to provide amazing burst damage when combined with certain synergies.
To add to this we implement skills like choking talons (to increase our uptime on minor maim), Solar Prison (for major maim and a powerful synergy), Shifting Standard (for major defile). We then look at other skills to buff the group, Dragonknights provide minor brutality, Templars provide minor sorcery, Sorcerers provide minor prophecy and Nightblades provide minor savagery.
Not only are we on Discord communicating but we also take advantage of some amazing addons, such as Sancts Ultimate Organiser, which tells us crucial details like synergy and purge cooldowns, ultimates available and Retreating Maneuver uptime.
All of this is just a generic overview and doesn't touch on the intricacies of each individual build for each individual role.

So we are doing all of these things to be as optimised as we can. What are the pug groups doing? Are you running into keeps and doing the same things over and over? Are you optimising your build to kill us (check out some solo vicious death bombers for ideas) or merely coming into Cyrodiil every day with the same build and hoping it has more of an impact than yesterday? If I get killed 1v1 while playing solo by a Nightblade, do I say that NBs are OP and need a nerf or self examine and adjust my play style and build?

I think all of the organised raid groups want to encourage more people to get into raiding as it is fun, exciting and fast paced. I personally would love nothing more than to see some more high level guilds compete against us. If people are interested in forming their own guild to combat other "ball groups" then I suggest checking out Dracarys' Youtube channel as there is many informative videos there to help people get started!

Agree very much. Long quote but such an excellent contribution just had to repeated

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some baiting and insulting comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil, constructive, and free of personal attacks. Thank you for your understanding.

Recremen

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

No rapids being used here lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xD2cBrYUQ

Nice bombs, but we all know that farming nubs on the bridge or back flag doesn't require much in the way of movement. Keep taking/defense, open field fights, and other situations requiring a lot of movement over a large area are where snare and immobilize purging becomes very important. When you're just repositioning a few feet around a corner it's not a big deal, but when you have multiple raids coming at you out in the field from different directions, you need to be able to dot the i if you're going to make it. And even in the video, it's easy to see that some extra movement might have helped you stop the ressers better and actually win the full fight. You had a great thing going and were keeping the bodies all nice and lined up, but it looked like you just couldn't make it back and forth fast enough to properly kill all the zombies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbd_dVaJ65I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCJ7pUVEMw

No rapids spam.

Like, I haven't had the luxury of having rapids in years, and I have still been successful in open field and keeps...

My point was mainly aimed at people in the thread rejoicing that organized groups are dead from this change lol.

Of course organized groups aren't dead from the change, but maybe watch your videos again? They support my argument. You've got a keep defense where you're leaving bodies unattended because you have more AD support, and you aren't exactly fighting outnumbered, at least from what I can tell. Then in the second video you've got open field fights where you get some decent kills, but ultimately die, and not even against multiple groups. It looks like just one. If you had better mobility you probably could have finished both fights in your favor. I obviously don't mean any disrespect, but we're definitely defining success differently here.

Thrasher91604

The skill spamming zerg balls kill performance in Cyro that results in a highly degraded ability to counter them. Anything to discourage that sort of mindless and exploitive gameplay is highly appreciated. Thanks again!