Rapids nerf

Haashhtaag

VaranisArano wrote: »

I find it funny that many people assume that this will be the change that breaks the organized raids.

We heard the same thing about AOE caps, removing AOE caps, the siege buffs, and plenty of other PVP changes.

Teamwork, good communication, cohesive movement, and coordinated casting will continue to dominate Cyrodiil. That's pretty much what Cyrodiil was designed for and that wont change.

This rapids change somewhat closes the gap between coordinated small groups and organized raids, which is a good thing. We all knew the overall speed nerf was a mistake that made speed the sole providence of large raids - ZOS has now removed speed in combat for everyone. (Which is enough to make me wonder why ZOS wants to slow combat down.)

But slowing down combat just means that large organized raids have to work harder to stick together. Its far from the end as long as those raids adapt like they have for every other major PVP change. Large organized groups can still adapt to dealing with more CCs and still protect their vulnerable members while moving better than any other group in PVP.

The people who will lose out the most are the semi-organized PUG raids or groups with poor communication. They will be easier to pull apart and take down in pieces.

In short, this is a major buff for organized small groups vs large organized groups (reversing the previous speed nerf which devastated organized small groups vs large groups), and a buff for any organized group vs disorganized groups (as usual.)

When they removed AOE caps they also added earthgore which pretty much negated the effects of aoe caps being removed.

This will prevent them from being able to just have dedicated rapid spammers to free them thus causing their groups to have to slot abilities that they normally wouldn't thus making them actually have to play the game. Much of their success depended on mobility such as small scale success did w/ swift/etc.

Moonsorrow

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

I’m very happy with these changes as it promotes skillful play on an individual basis - something the top tier PvP groups have already been doing for a long time.

It is just not this, it is the whole concept of less choices on how to play.

Example, on Cyrodiil could make 12 people ball group efficiently and go against the 50+ alliance zergs with smart play and yes, Rapids being "spammed".. now, not that much can do with same efficiency. So those same 12 people might as well join the alliance stack to make it 62+ in size instead of 50+. What was the benefit?

I mean, we small scalers got our speed taken out.. should we be happy when everyone else got also nerfed?

Honestly sometimes i am amazed by this community and how it does see things.

Xsorus

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

Kartalin

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

Purge spammers I am guessing, so our stam sorcs will convert to magsorcs and regear. And 2h’s for everyone.

dem0n1k

The people complaining about rapids spammers are probably time-stop spammers XD

Haashhtaag

Kartalin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

Purge spammers I am guessing, so our stam sorcs will convert to magsorcs and regear. And 2h’s for everyone.

Purge spammers will run out of magicka IMO due to how often snares/roots are applied.

phairdon

dem0n1k wrote: »

The people complaining about rapids spammers are probably time-stop spammers XD

Time stop. Wonderful skill for doorway defense. Now back to rapids....

Moonsorrow

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

One can also make magDK ball groups, so while keeping Wings up also does damage AND gets some movement freedom.

EDIT: Wings nerf incoming

irswat

how to run through beams in vhof without rapids?! its not all about pvp

Fischblut

First they reduced the speed bonus from Major Expedition. Then they took away +15% mounted speed from Cyrodiil Ward. Now another nice ability is about to be nerfed

I always have Rapids on my bar in overland PvE Literally every mob puts a snare on me by some of their attacks, so while it takes me few moments to kill it, I have to cast Rapids to get rid of annoying snare which persists even after the mob died.

Linaleah

am I the only one who is sad about this nerf as a SOLO player? no? just me?

fastolfv_ESO

skill beat out numbers a few too many times so here we are

frostz417

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

D0PAMINE

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

Well, purge too.

Xsorus

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

You forgot one

i'll give you a hint, its the one multiple mag classes use to have mobility and remove snare and root

Moonsorrow

Xsorus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

You forgot one

i'll give you a hint, its the one multiple mag classes use to have mobility and remove snare and root

Mist form.

But for ball groups, its limitations are so big that as said cannot have same efficiency as with Rapids.

So end of one era is here. Next will be skills & playstyles someone else likes, until nothing is left.

Arunei

Does the change only remove the immunity, or is it also getting rid of the removal of initial snares/roots upon use? I mostly just use it for the latter when I'm doing PvE stuff and every mob and its mother wants to snare me while I'm doing said stuff.

This feels like another example of a skill getting 'balanced' for PvP while ignoring how it will affect PvE. Maybe it was meant to be an overall adjustment to both play styles but if it was meant specifically for PvP balancing then it's just another thing that shows they REALLY need to split skills between PvE and PvP so they can be balanced separately, without changes for one play style impacting the other.

frostz417

Xsorus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

You forgot one

i'll give you a hint, its the one multiple mag classes use to have mobility and remove snare and root

Ah yes. A giant gimp to be a vampire and get obliterated by dawnbreakers and anything fire damage

Inarre

Don't be silly their support can just wear the new set and get free purges and reward the group with free mag

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some unnecessary baiting comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Thank you for your understanding.

Girl_Number8

Turelus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

If they're good players they'll adapt and continue to farm zerglings. If their entire ability to be a good player rested on one skill, I'd personally question if they were good players.

Good players are leaving and zerglings are the majority by all the nerfs not this one in the least. I think Zos needs to 'adapt' their business model and focus on performance and making ESO a great game again.

Here's to hoping.

TequilaFire

usmcjdking wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Good, send this skill straight to the dumpster.

Why?

You don't see anything problematic about having nigh perma-immunity to tools designed specifically to fight the people that have said immunity at no cost of their own?

You don’t see anything problematic about everyone being able to relentlessly spam snares and roots without any cooldown or draw back constantly rooting opponents down especially since almost every spammable is a snare?

No, not really. I encourage any mechanic that makes people fight for a clear & decisive winner.

You mean running away? lol

Malamar1229

Lol @ the zerg ball groups. Dont worry, you still have your earthforce. For now.

Tetrafy

So spam wings run two hand and purge k zos

VaranisArano

Haashhtaag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I find it funny that many people assume that this will be the change that breaks the organized raids.

We heard the same thing about AOE caps, removing AOE caps, the siege buffs, and plenty of other PVP changes.

Teamwork, good communication, cohesive movement, and coordinated casting will continue to dominate Cyrodiil. That's pretty much what Cyrodiil was designed for and that wont change.

This rapids change somewhat closes the gap between coordinated small groups and organized raids, which is a good thing. We all knew the overall speed nerf was a mistake that made speed the sole providence of large raids - ZOS has now removed speed in combat for everyone. (Which is enough to make me wonder why ZOS wants to slow combat down.)

But slowing down combat just means that large organized raids have to work harder to stick together. Its far from the end as long as those raids adapt like they have for every other major PVP change. Large organized groups can still adapt to dealing with more CCs and still protect their vulnerable members while moving better than any other group in PVP.

The people who will lose out the most are the semi-organized PUG raids or groups with poor communication. They will be easier to pull apart and take down in pieces.

In short, this is a major buff for organized small groups vs large organized groups (reversing the previous speed nerf which devastated organized small groups vs large groups), and a buff for any organized group vs disorganized groups (as usual.)

When they removed AOE caps they also added earthgore which pretty much negated the effects of aoe caps being removed.

This will prevent them from being able to just have dedicated rapid spammers to free them thus causing their groups to have to slot abilities that they normally wouldn't thus making them actually have to play the game. Much of their success depended on mobility such as small scale success did w/ swift/etc.

Large organized groups can and will make that adjustment. When you have enough players willing to coordinate and work together, you can cover your weaknesses better than disorganized or smaller groups. And I've played in a large organized raid - the majority of players in the group already have the player skill to manage our own movement - we certainly weren't brainlessly relying on rapids spammers to counter all CCs. That's a misconception I often see, that large organized raid players dont know how to play without group support skills. Very often, we do know how to play as a team without them, and that's why we use those group support skills to such good effect when we do have them. (Its the same with Earthgore - good raids used Earthgore on top of already excellent healers to become untouchable, nerf Earthgore, and their healers remain excellent.)

It certainly will mean changes, don't get me wrong. Large organized raids will have to adjust. Combat will slow down, and that primarily benefits small organized groups. Small organized groups will find it easier to root, CC, and pull apart large organized groups. I think that's more beneficial than the Murkmire nerf, which made speed the sole providence of large organized raids. Good organized small groups should be competitive, and this will help after the Murkmire nerf. Large organized groups that work together will be able to counter those tactics and use numbers to their advantage, which is how it should be IMO.

I am still left with the realization that ZOS is removing speed for everyone, without updating snares. Which is interesting.

TequilaFire

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Lol @ the zerg ball groups. Dont worry, you still have your earthforce. For now.

Lol @ Xers you are still going to get crushed.

Berenhir

Rapids was a completely brain-dead skill and should never have been in the game as the cost (dedicate 1/12 players to press rapids and negate) was ridiculous compared to the benefit (be immune to roots and snares at + 30% constant movement speed).

If you would break that down to a single player, FM would have to give major expedition and snare immunity for at least 12 seconds at a sustainable cost.

So just stop defending the skill, it's a crutch like earthgore. If your ball group wipes without it, the unorganized groups you fought are actually just better than you are. And if you could fight outnumbered before but cannot fight outnumbered afterwards - then the only reason was that the game gave you trainings wheels before.

Undefwun

frostz417 wrote: »

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

You mean those groups just running along keep walls or up and down and round towers, not edgy enough to join into those fine fights.

Hopefully now you can just pick off the edges and tails of zergs moving with solo players. Glad I finally made a snipetard after over a year of pvp and refusing to use a bow.

I'll keep my brawlers in BGs and try to knock off ball group members with the sniper in cyro.

You still have efficient purge and the new revised Curse Eater set... just requires actively pushing buttons.

Just fix earthgore... and the game will be better for it.
I hit a tower group with a cold fire treb from a hill.. couldn't see the fight anymore under the red cloud, when like 4 earthgores procced at the same time. Big plays from 'advanced', 'top tier' players.

Coordinated groups will still be better and always will...

shaielzafine

Ball groups will still win over disorganized pugs / solo players / small man groups. Rapids is one of the reasons ball groups dominate, but the coordinated ulti dumps is a bigger deal than the rapids. The rapids monkey will have less utility than before, and will need to watch the healers and slowpokes in group getting left behind. Stamsorc spamming rapids + negates will now want extra purge spammer buddies (built for mag recovery, and different from the high magicka healer support build). The CCs, AOEs, siege and snares will still be spammed like before.

Vapirko

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

If they're good players they'll adapt and continue to farm zerglings. If their entire ability to be a good player rested on one skill, I'd personally question if they were good players.

Good players are leaving and zerglings are the majority by all the nerfs not this one in the least. I think Zos needs to 'adapt' their business model and focus on performance and making ESO a great game again.

Here's to hoping.

Good players were leaving because changes like this weren't being made. As I understand it a lot of good players are finally getting excited again.

shaielzafine wrote: »

Ball groups will still win over disorganized pugs / solo players / small man groups. Rapids is one of the reasons ball groups dominate, but the coordinated ulti dumps is a bigger deal than the rapids. The rapids monkey will have less utility than before, and will need to watch the healers and slowpokes in group getting left behind. Stamsorc spamming rapids + negates will now want extra purge spammer buddies (built for mag recovery, and different from the high magicka healer support build). The CCs, AOEs, siege and snares will still be spammed like before.

Ult dumps suck but game performance will they can be avoided. This is one of the harder things for new players to learn imo. Analyzing the movement of coordinated groups and learning to watch the telltale signs that an ultimate dump is coming, and taking the appropriate action before and during to avoid being one shotted. And of course and organized group of equal or even lesser numbers should be able to beat a disorganized pug and obviously solo players and smaller groups. No one in all of ESO PvP is saying that organized groups shouldn't or don't have the rightful advantage that comes with numbers and coordination. The people crying about this nerf are basically just people who need to l2p.