Rapids nerf

technohic

VaranisArano wrote: »

I find it funny that many people assume that this will be the change that breaks the organized raids.

We heard the same thing about AOE caps, removing AOE caps, the siege buffs, and plenty of other PVP changes.

Teamwork, good communication, cohesive movement, and coordinated casting will continue to dominate Cyrodiil. That's pretty much what Cyrodiil was designed for and that wont change.

This rapids change somewhat closes the gap between coordinated small groups and organized raids, which is a good thing. We all knew the overall speed nerf was a mistake that made speed the sole providence of large raids - ZOS has now removed speed in combat for everyone. (Which is enough to make me wonder why ZOS wants to slow combat down.)

But slowing down combat just means that large organized raids have to work harder to stick together. Its far from the end as long as those raids adapt like they have for every other major PVP change. Large organized groups can still adapt to dealing with more CCs and still protect their vulnerable members while moving better than any other group in PVP.

The people who will lose out the most are the semi-organized PUG raids or groups with poor communication. They will be easier to pull apart and take down in pieces.

In short, this is a major buff for organized small groups vs large organized groups (reversing the previous speed nerf which devastated organized small groups vs large groups), and a buff for any organized group vs disorganized groups (as usual.)

Its true that I am ok with this as I usually run in a 3- 8 ish man group except for 1 night a week where we bring raids of PVEers. The smaller group will be glad to not be outrun by a ball group, or at least possibly be able to root and snare them and maneuver away (which we usually try to do) where before they were fast and unstoppable once they got their eye on you.

The larger zergy group though; I'm pretty sure just use it for their horses.

Cc in this game sucks but are necessary to kill good players. This is probably not the right fix as its incomplete; but I feel it will be better overall

shaielzafine

Vapirko wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

If they're good players they'll adapt and continue to farm zerglings. If their entire ability to be a good player rested on one skill, I'd personally question if they were good players.

Good players are leaving and zerglings are the majority by all the nerfs not this one in the least. I think Zos needs to 'adapt' their business model and focus on performance and making ESO a great game again.

Here's to hoping.

Good players were leaving because changes like this weren't being made. As I understand it a lot of good players are finally getting excited again.

shaielzafine wrote: »

Ball groups will still win over disorganized pugs / solo players / small man groups. Rapids is one of the reasons ball groups dominate, but the coordinated ulti dumps is a bigger deal than the rapids. The rapids monkey will have less utility than before, and will need to watch the healers and slowpokes in group getting left behind. Stamsorc spamming rapids + negates will now want extra purge spammer buddies (built for mag recovery, and different from the high magicka healer support build). The CCs, AOEs, siege and snares will still be spammed like before.

Ult dumps suck but game performance will they can be avoided. This is one of the harder things for new players to learn imo. Analyzing the movement of coordinated groups and learning to watch the telltale signs that an ultimate dump is coming, and taking the appropriate action before and during to avoid being one shotted. And of course and organized group of equal or even lesser numbers should be able to beat a disorganized pug and obviously solo players and smaller groups. No one in all of ESO PvP is saying that organized groups shouldn't or don't have the rightful advantage that comes with numbers and coordination. The people crying about this nerf are basically just people who need to l2p.

A lot of pvpers I know have already left, and are waiting to see changes being made to balancing + server performance. The nerf to rapids is fine. It's not going to be that big of a change because in a min-maxed group they will just compensate for it by coordinating / communicating with each other about their builds. Ball groups will still be fine, like I said. Many solo / small scale pvpers will still avoid them and leave them to other organized guilds / zergs to fight. Why pick a fight when it's 4 vs 12 organized people? The small man group can kite some zerglings out of the big disorganized zerg for easy AP or just go take resources for AP. Fighting a group without a "crown" is so much easier. It's very different when you join a ball group with different roles (ex. rapids stamsorc) vs. a small man where they just have their solo builds and try to dps / heal / tank at the same time (ex. stamsorc dps trying to 1vX build). I think ZOS just nerfed rapids because they don't know what to do about balance. It's a step in the right direction, but it's still going to be one sided fights. It's still going to be hard to find solo fights or even numbered group fights. Pug groups can't tell when a ball group is just maneuvering to dump ults at you from a corner or wait for their healers' earthgore / ultis to be on cooldown. People new to pvp will just sit there in the aoes or try to jump face first 1vXing them and need rezzes. Maybe trying to get the new daedric weapon, people won't be zerging down to that location and lagging out. Who knows? They have to implement these changes first before we see if they're good changes.

Recremen

It's a terrible change. Good PvP groups are distinguished from faction zergs by their ability to coordinate builds, move as a unit, and attack together. Of course, good groups will build around the changes and adjust, but we're going to have to do it by decreasing build diversity and focusing more on purge, leaving stam builds relegated to damage or key utility ultimates. Pretty bad change if it goes through.

Mr_Walker

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I don't give a fig for PVP these days, but the designers seem to have a weird obsession with making the game slow as molasses. It has infected pve as well with expedition nerfs. Find another way to balance things that doesn't kill the flow and maybe try something other than nerfs for once in your careers.

Yes. So much yes.

Mr_Walker

shaielzafine wrote: »

Rapids is one of the reasons ball groups dominate...

It's mostly teamwork.

waitwhat

Magnificent change about rapids. The best anti-zerg move in years.

pocketdefender

It would be nice if the snare immunity applied only to the caster, so it wasn't OP, but could still be used by non-zergy players.

shaielzafine

Mr_Walker wrote: »

shaielzafine wrote: »

Rapids is one of the reasons ball groups dominate...

It's mostly teamwork.

uh isn't that what i said? you removed half of the sentence and didn't read the next bit?

Finneholt

Just curious: is there anything that removes/counters snares now? Asking as a dual wield PVE player. Would be interesting if the snare effect was reduced, or if the effect ended once the caster is killed. Snares can be annoying (I didn't say difficult, just annoying) as I'm sometimes constantly snared while soloing dolmens etc.

Mariusghost84

What is a ball group?

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Finneholt wrote: »

Just curious: is there anything that removes/counters snares now? Asking as a dual wield PVE player. Would be interesting if the snare effect was reduced, or if the effect ended once the caster is killed. Snares can be annoying (I didn't say difficult, just annoying) as I'm sometimes constantly snared while soloing dolmens etc.

Cleances, shuffle, momentum. There are also sets that grants you boons while snared or rooted.

frozywozy

Kel wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

To be fair, if we're going to be real about this...

I don't see ball groups fighting zergs hardly ever. What I do see, however, is ball groups jumping on solo players and smaller groups that they outnumber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq4GAlETlSA

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

I’m very happy with these changes as it promotes skillful play on an individual basis - something the top tier PvP groups have already been doing for a long time.

It is just not this, it is the whole concept of less choices on how to play.

Example, on Cyrodiil could make 12 people ball group efficiently and go against the 50+ alliance zergs with smart play and yes, Rapids being "spammed".. now, not that much can do with same efficiency. So those same 12 people might as well join the alliance stack to make it 62+ in size instead of 50+. What was the benefit?

I mean, we small scalers got our speed taken out.. should we be happy when everyone else got also nerfed?

Honestly sometimes i am amazed by this community and how it does see things.

When the tools for small scale like Forward Momentum was nerfed to the ground, the first reaction of small scallers was to complain why the ballgroups were not nerfed the same way and plenty of threads were made to nerf retreating maneuvers.

I went in every single of those thread and asked why they were trying to get other people nerfed instead of asking to revert back the change of Forward Momentum and find a just middle, maybe 8 seconds instead of 4.

My posts were ignored everywhere and nobody seemed to care about it. Like you said, I am also amazed by this community who instead of addressing the problem which is the poor decision making of ZOS, ask for everybody to be judged accordingly.

"Hey I got nerfed and I disagree about it, so let's just make sure that every playstyle suffer from it".

This is a plague that we should not have to deal with. There are so many different ways to address the issue. I believe that all the latest changes to Snare removals in the last patches are counter-productive.

There are plenty of other mmos out there who deal with them perfectly well. For example, they group up disabling effects and hard ccs together in pairs and add diminishing returns.

For example it could be :

Snares + Fears
Roots + Stuns

As a result :

if you get snared or feared once, the next time you get snared or feared in the next 10 seconds, the duration is halved.
if you get snared or feared a second time during the following 10 seconds, the duration is halved again.
if you get snared or feared a third time during the following 10 seconds, you are immune for 5 seconds.

This mechanic bypass cc immunity entirely and provide a counter play to cc / roots / snares spam.

I would also strongly advise that the combat team revisit every single ability and passive in the game that add a snare. There are simply too many and it's too easy to build a character with significant damage and constant snares uptime.

Passives like Warmth from the Dragonknight Ardent Flames skills line should not even exist.

Snares are a huge quality of life issue in Cyrodiil. Yes I understand that they are needed because we don't want peopleto be able to run away from any engagement and reset the fight but this was addressed already when the duration of speed pots was reduced and the effectiveness of the swift trait got changed. Personally, I would add snares only to ground effects abilities and I would remove them from all passives.

BrokenGameMechanics

Rarely agree to a nerf. But I'm 100% for this one. Anything that addresses the ball group issue is welcome.

Garrick

My PVP experiance from Midyear Mayhem can be summarized as follows:

Run around taking keeps/resources, fighting 1 on 1 or small scale battles. Much fun to be had.

THEN

Zerg shows up. Root, snare, root, snare, root, snare. Dead.

Move to another location and hope Zerg does not show up there.

My most common cause of death was frost warden. There were zergs where it seemed like most of the people were frost wardens.

Personally, I don't find being constantly stunned, rooted, snared, etc. much fun at all. I think the basic problem is that there are far too many skills that do damage and impose these effects.

It would be nice to have some counterplay. Not just immunity to effects, but something like reflecting the effects back. For example (as a 5 piece set bonus or an ability) : "If you are snared and an enemy casts another snare on you, it is reflected back at the caster".

Just something to make people think more carefully about what they are doing rather than mindlessly casting the same spell over and over.

Finneholt

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Finneholt wrote: »

Just curious: is there anything that removes/counters snares now? Asking as a dual wield PVE player. Would be interesting if the snare effect was reduced, or if the effect ended once the caster is killed. Snares can be annoying (I didn't say difficult, just annoying) as I'm sometimes constantly snared while soloing dolmens etc.

Cleances, shuffle, momentum. There are also sets that grants you boons while snared or rooted.

That's right, I forgot about Shuffle. I think I morphed the other way. Peace!

Mayrael

Turelus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

If they're good players they'll adapt and continue to farm zerglings. If their entire ability to be a good player rested on one skill, I'd personally question if they were good players.

Haha rekt!

Hand_Bacon

"Zerglings" vs "Ball Groups"

One is on voice and the other isn't.

Eclipse0990

Going forward...3-2-1-mistform!

VaranisArano

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

What is a ball group?

A ball group is a organized raid that runs tightly together so that they resemble a ball of players. Typically, they are in voice comms, follow a leader "crown", and coordinate their builds, tactics, skills and ultimate drops.

Irylia

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

Lol

TequilaFire

VaranisArano wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

What is a ball group?

A ball group is a organized raid that runs tightly together so that they resemble a ball of players. Typically, they are in voice comms, follow a leader "crown", and coordinate their builds, tactics, skills and ultimate drops.

In other words play the game as it was designed to be played instead of solo COD Rambo style.

Svidrir

frostz417 wrote: »

Okay so let’s remove the only good source of snare and root immunity but do nothing to address how snares and roots are so easily spammed with no cooldown whatsoever ever? Is this a joke? Does zos want this game to be everyone going slow af and permanently snared/rooted?????
This snare and root meta will now be even worse since there’s still a bunch of pugs spamming roots and snares with 0 drawback whatsoever

Anyway, on 40 guys, when you're in: 15 who spam the time stop, 25 1 skill of bump or other, lengthen the cast time of CC / snare will not change much: D

InvictusApollo

Retreating Manouver was the only escape ability for non vampire templar in pvp. Either give templar an escape ability or give a "Mortal's Mask" skin that will hide vampirism.

technohic

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Retreating Manouver was the only escape ability for non vampire templar in pvp. Either give templar an escape ability or give a "Mortal's Mask" skin that will hide vampirism.

What templar is running rapids? If there is one, they are as good as dead anyway cause they are going to be out of resources unable to break free or block to heal. Probably doing that templar a favor to have them learn to use something else and save their stam pool.

TheRealSniker

Great change, love the patch so far

frozywozy

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Great change, love the patch so far

Could you elaborate and explain how this is a great change to you as a stamblade 1vXer running shade?

TequilaFire

technohic wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Retreating Manouver was the only escape ability for non vampire templar in pvp. Either give templar an escape ability or give a "Mortal's Mask" skin that will hide vampirism.

What templar is running rapids? If their is one, they are as good as dead anyway cause they are going to be out of resources unable to break free or block to heal. Probably doing that templar a favor to have them learn to use something else and save their stam pool.

I do and don't run out of stam on magplar with management, not even an issue on my stamplar.
Much better than mistform as I can heal and regen and lasts longer than potion.
But don't make it sound like it is a constant spam it is situational to get through choke points quickly and without being snared. But all that is in the past now because of tryhards.

SmackNCheese

Imagine complaining that finally you cant have a dedicated spammer of a 8k stam ability.

cheifsoap

I agree with half of what you said. Its really asinine that there isn't any sort of CD on snares and immobilization like every other MMORPG's PVP. But for rapidsbots? Yeah - no. That's the dumbest concept on the planet for making ball groups "competitive" its such a boring style and role to play in a ball group. So I'm personally okay with the nerf

ArchMikem

frostz417 wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

ball groups don't really need any buffs, nerfs are appreciated

Nerfs because ball groups took the time to actually assemble an organized group to combat annoying zergs who just 60v12 everyone?? Are you even listening to yourself?

In my experience ball groups arent formed to combat zergs, theyre formed to sit at Arrius resources to farm the reds that come to flip it back.