Rapids nerf

eso_lags

frostz417 wrote: »

Okay so let’s remove the only good source of snare and root immunity but do nothing to address how snares and roots are so easily spammed with no cooldown whatsoever ever? Is this a joke? Does zos want this game to be everyone going slow af and permanently snared/rooted?????
This snare and root meta will now be even worse since there’s still a bunch of pugs spamming roots and snares with 0 drawback whatsoever

Not sure if this change will be good or bad for most players. I dont use it. But playing solo/small scale, my opinion is they need to undo the nerf to FM in MM and buff shuffle to be on par with it.. Either that or nerf snares. Its ridiculous at this point, it makes so many fights in pvp just awful. The constant slows are my issue. You are slowed, you shuffle out, and you're slowed again. You shuffle to kite people and you get gap closed and slowed. Its just stupid at this point.

Not really sure what they could do for mag builds though. I know they have some good ways to combat snares/slows but im not sure if its enough.

pieratsos

frostz417 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Good, send this skill straight to the dumpster.

Why?

You don't see anything problematic about having nigh perma-immunity to tools designed specifically to fight the people that have said immunity at no cost of their own?

You don’t see anything problematic about everyone being able to relentlessly spam snares and roots without any cooldown or draw back constantly rooting opponents down especially since almost every spammable is a snare?

He does. The difference is that he is trying to deal with it through his own actions by slotting FM, speed buffs, shuffle, Los etc. Like an actually good player would. He is not complaining why he isn't immune to them by having someone spamming one skill for him. Dont worry tho. You'll still have dedicated purge bots making u immune to half of the debuffs in the game including snares. Sorry bud, you got a long way ahead of you before you actually feel what he has to do to deal with snares and debuffs in general.

pieratsos

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Man I guess you’ll just have to equip a snare and root removing skill...

I do.. shuffle. But say I’m a mag character. I won’t have one since the only 3 snare/root removals are wings, shuffle, and Foward momentum. Being that mag DK’s don’t really run in ball groups. This screws over mag once again

You forgot one

i'll give you a hint, its the one multiple mag classes use to have mobility and remove snare and root

Ah yes. A giant gimp to be a vampire and get obliterated by dawnbreakers and anything fire damage

Yes, they are called drawbacks. You should try them and try to overcome them. Not expect to be immune to them without doing anything. You seem to be confused on the concept of skillful gameplay.

pieratsos

VaranisArano wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

What is a ball group?

A ball group is a organized raid that runs tightly together so that they resemble a ball of players. Typically, they are in voice comms, follow a leader "crown", and coordinate their builds, tactics, skills and ultimate drops.

That's one way to put it. But let's not kid ourselves, that's not always the case.

Ruckly

Rapid Maneuver was reduced to 12 targets from 24.

I read that and thought that was what everyone was complaining about.

It will no longer provide immunity to snare/immobilize and won't remove snare/immobilize!?

Razor Caltrops:

Hurl an exploding ball of caltrops that scatter over the target area, dealing x Physical Damage every 1 second and reducing Movement Speed by 30%.

When the ball of caltrops initially explodes it deals an immediate x Physical Damage and reduces the Movement Speed of enemies hit by 70% for 3 s.

Caltrops are a necessary tool for defending keeps.

On the one hand caltrops will make ball groups unable to move.

On the other hand people running around with group major expedition and snare immunity and proximity detonation and destro ult and mowing down anything that isn't as organized and doesn't have a dedicated rapid spammer holds back battle potential in meeting engagements.

This won't really affect normal groups because they can leapfrog purgers and throw down siege shields.

frozywozy

@shaielzafine - there are multiple counters to ballgroups. if you really played in one like you claimed, you would know better. Synergy plays beat absolutly anything if coordinated correctly. The fact that some factions need to stack 40-50 players to kill 12-16 is entirely wrong. All you need is 3-4 in there to make the difference. Otherwise, you make your own organized group.

gabriebe

I'm sure the reason why you run in these 12-16 groups is because 3-4 people can really make a difference.

SKYICE01

@shaielzafine 4 people can kill groups of 20.
¤ Nova
¤negate
¤Storm
If you know anything about synargy mechanics you will know nova can hit for 50k sometimes.

gabriebe

Key word is sometimes. I run a synergy build with nova. If you're attacking a group that somewhat knows what it's doing like Dracarys, that Nova is negated the second it touches the ground. The megazergs EP are famous are not as affected by the rapids change because they're only very loosely organized to begin with, they just have numbers. The proper ball groups who are bitching about this rapids change are just annoyed that they'll have to dedicate more individual ressources to mobility.

I'm not exactly worried about them. They'll just have to lose some fashion points and go back to vamp.

SKYICE01

That's why I said negate mate.

TheRealSniker

I have been raiding before in 8-12man groups with 2-4 dedicated healers and a rapids monkey.

All I can say is that I am happy that Rapids got nerfed, the gameplay in such a big group is completely braindead, you can run a build with no healing and completely rely on other people surviving. Theres not much thought behind it besides timing that Proxy or Subt.
Atleast now you will have to remove the snares yourself lol

The nerf is a step towards rewarding individual skill of a player and anybody who cries about it just doesn't want to step out of their comfort zone, I am sure none of these people ever successfully 1vXed

gabriebe

lol do you really think we didn't think of using negate?

The issue is while my team will have 1 negate, rarely 2, those groups have multiples to spare. Not to mention I actually do need to get into the middle of that zerg to pop the nova, which is hard to do because I don't have the luxury of a rapids spammer, while they do so they can move away fast. I'll get snared immediately into an ice blockade, caltrops, name it.

I mean don't get me wrong it's definitely possible to overcome these obstacles. You catch them offguard, you anticipate where they,'re going, you have amazing precision with the timing of your nova, negate, proxy det and destro. But that's a really rare result against a competent group that is triple your size.

shaielzafine

frozywozy wrote: »

@shaielzafine - there are multiple counters to ballgroups. if you really played in one like you claimed, you would know better. Synergy plays beat absolutly anything if coordinated correctly. The fact that some factions need to stack 40-50 players to kill 12-16 is entirely wrong. All you need is 3-4 in there to make the difference. Otherwise, you make your own organized group.

I said I was in multiple guilds that attempted to make ball groups, and actually aren't you in Dracarys? I remembered when Pugs of Daggerfall (now a different name) got absolutely demolished during a GvG with you, and I was in that group. I quit that guild and joined another one, which also attempted to copy a ball group playstyle. And I left again. So, what counters ball groups then? You're telling me 3-4 people can come in there and counter you guys? That's the counter to ball group meta? Not snares and CC's and siege spam? No? Because it sounded like you didn't like the rapids nerf one bit. Notice how I said in my previous post, the counter is to make your own ball group or run away. That sounds like what you're saying.

See, I think the rapids nerf is fine. I remember being the rapids person and placing negates, and I remember group healing on templar. Once you're able to idenfity the healers in group it's easier to prioritize killing them and because people in min maxed ball groups have specific jobs, normally they don't slot self heals like 1vXers. Ball groups typically go around with crown, around the keep, maybe flip the flags, try to bait the pugs to chase you and kite them, then dump ultimates. With the rapids nerf, and the way ZOS has abilities worked out, there's no global cooldown on snare / CC spam. Once you hook some of the group in, fight is over.

SKYICE01 wrote: »

@shaielzafine 4 people can kill groups of 20.
¤ Nova
¤negate
¤Storm
If you know anything about synargy mechanics you will know nova can hit for 50k sometimes.

Great, now I'm going to just need a good bomber DPS, a stamsorc / magsorc with negate, and I'm going to go drop Nova and it'll wipe ball groups. Lol. I know you can combo that, and I've seen synergized novas wipe groups, but you're simplifying things. Good ball groups have good movement, they practice movement, and they always follow crown. Normally they are also experienced and will know if they're being baited or if it's better to surprise their opponents by dropping from up top or something. They also stack earthgores in group, which is basically a free healing ultimate with a purge. As a solo / small man player, I will always try to walk away when I see ball groups because there's no point. In the end even as a 4 man group, is it easier to go make the effort to go against min-maxed ball groups or to go find an even numbered fight of 4v4? I like looking for even fights. I'm not a good 1vXer like some people and I know my limits. I also prefer to PvP with friends, not go for any hardcore "raids".

Morgul667

I think it's a pretty good change

ErMurazor

waitwhat wrote: »

Magnificent change about rapids. The best anti-zerg move in years.

Oh no, zergs are all about numbers, they dont use rapids. Expect bigger zergs after this change since no ballgroups to worry about

ErMurazor

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

"Zerglings" vs "Ball Groups"

One is on voice and the other isn't.

One use rapids and the other isn't.

BrokenGameMechanics

My fave toon in PVP these days is a Frost Mage. Low 20sk dps on a 300K dumy. In PvP you're talking just little over 10K dps with Batte Spirit. Couldn't kill a fly. The whole point of the toon is chills, immobilize, aoe, slows, stuns, defile, maim, debuffs, buffs, and light heals.

Nothing sucks more than facing those senseless ball groups that run into a tower, mill around building ulti and then run out mowing down everything by spammig ultis. It sucks as I know they are going to rush out. So I keep up constant Frost fields, at the tower entrance and it's a complete waste as they just hit rapids and run out without a care in the world ignoring everything. You just can't have a skill that allows an entire large group to ignore a major aspect of game play strategy and tactics.

100% approve.

Irylia

Undefwun wrote: »

So I found a couple of instances in these notes where they did something and later on another change helped alleviate the change, IF you so choose...

Curse Eater
NEW
5 – When you heal yourself or an ally, remove two negative effects from them. If a negative effect was removed this way, your target restores 150 Magicka. This effect can occur every 2 seconds.

The only thing gonna change is instead of rapids spammers a few of the support types gonna run this on top of Cleansing Ritual...

Dracarys, Animosity and all the other groups of tower & keep wall runners and farmers of the unorganised masses will be just fine. Pretty sure within the hour of release of these notes, orders were sent on discords, sets were purchased, readied and stored for use the second this goes live.

We looked at it but are pretty sure it will see a change before it goes live.
If it still helps remove debuffs it may be worth using but we also only have 1 healer. 2 if we are lucky.
And trans isn’t a pretty nice set to have while eating 2 debuffs a second is nice 6-8 of us being cleansed by it would be hard pressed when receiving various debuffs constantly.

We also have maybe used rapids once or twice in combat but only because we couldn’t swap it off our bar before we got into a fight. ANd while it is extremely strong to be able to stack heals rapids and then run uncontested, it’s draining and really requires a dedicated support to do so.

The snares are oppressive and I hope they tune them into a major minor system of 30/15 but we’ve been making do with our own snare removals and self sufficiency.

Earthgore is also something we may get 1 of occasionally but it isn’t nearly as strong for us, as it is for a group who can slot more earthgore/bogdan and ensure they have one off cd when being bombed.

Id like to see

Rapids - gives immunity to the caster only

Time stop - remove the snare effect

Earthgore - just remove non ultimate ground effects and no heal

I’m excited to see the rapids change go live as it will be interesting to see which of those guilds can still reliably pvp.

IMO it’s a good change that will remove the booster seat and force players to l2p and reach the skill ceiling on their own accord.

Nermy

Nice to read so much anger and frustration. We felt like that when we read the changes coming to RM. Loads of stuns and CCs and no proper way to overcome them, seems slightly unfair.

But you know what, as a guild raid we have overcome every change and all the nerfs that ZoS has thrown at us and we have improved everytime.

So here we go again, another major change but Wabbajack will adapt and overcome. We will improve against the odds and we will still walk on carpets of dead DC and AD until they have to send half their faction to put us down. (I have the screenshots)

Blood for the Pact!

See you on the battlefield.

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed a great deal of baiting and insulting comments from this thread. As the discussion has continued to derail, we have decided to close it down. Thank you for your understanding.