Rapids nerf

xxthir13enxx

Rapid Maneuvers: This ability and its morphs will no longer provide immunity to snares or immobilizes.
Retreating Maneuvers: This morph will no longer remove current snares or immobilizes, and will instead grant affected allies a bonus that reduces their damage taken from behind by 15%.

Developer Comment:
Spoiler

After the changes to Major Expedition in Update 20, we wanted to make sure all abilities that provided the buff were given the same pass, yet Rapid Maneuvers was left untouched. We wanted to spend more time fleshing out a new identity for this ability, while still retaining the unique group play it enabled. Since the removal of snares and immobilizes is such a powerful tool, we removed that function from this skill since it was allowing large groups to ignore incorporating those types of abilities in their individual builds. We repurposed Retreating Maneuvers for something that was strictly defensive, as the name implied, so you’ll now take less damage when being attacked from the backside as you reposition or retreat.

Joshlenoir

It's funny because the only groups that rely on rapids are those full raids ( and let's be honest if you're playing in a 24 man group you're not good to begin with) or those 16 man destro ulti trains, which is just a one dimensional playstyle from people who never adapted to play in a small group setting.
The only people that will be hurt by this change are players who were never forced to Improve due to the nature of their group composition.
It's a good change and people should adapt and l2play.

Wildberryjack

If they're going to take away the ability to shake off roots and snares then they need to make root and snare abilities NOT be spammable. What utter nonsense is this? Others can spam abilities and that's ok but we're going to take away your ability to counter? Really?

Joshlenoir

Wildberryjack wrote: »

If they're going to take away the ability to shake off roots and snares then they need to make root and snare abilities NOT be spammable. What utter nonsense is this? Others can spam abilities and that's ok but we're going to take away your ability to counter? Really?

Have you considered slotting shuffle, forward momentum, or cleanse like every other players in the game who doesn't play with 16+ other people?

TequilaFire

Joshlenoir wrote: »

It's funny because the only groups that rely on rapids are those full raids ( and let's be honest if you're playing in a 24 man group you're not good to begin with) or those 16 man destro ulti trains, which is just a one dimensional playstyle from people who never adapted to play in a small group setting.
The only people that will be hurt by this change are players who were never forced to Improve due to the nature of their group composition.
It's a good change and people should adapt and l2play.

Your playing the wrong game.
This is AvAvA large scale, sure you can small scale but you are never going to be as effective as a group.

Aliyavana

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

LOL

technohic

TequilaFire wrote: »

Joshlenoir wrote: »

It's funny because the only groups that rely on rapids are those full raids ( and let's be honest if you're playing in a 24 man group you're not good to begin with) or those 16 man destro ulti trains, which is just a one dimensional playstyle from people who never adapted to play in a small group setting.
The only people that will be hurt by this change are players who were never forced to Improve due to the nature of their group composition.
It's a good change and people should adapt and l2play.

Your playing the wrong game.
This is AvAvA large scale, sure you can small scale but you are never going to be as effective as a group.

Think he's in the right spot. If you run into him as a player who plays a build rather than a cog in the wheel; you'll come away with the feeling he's very good at this game as he beats more players than him. Happen to port into a keep where these groups are just rolling over the same pugs over and over thinking they are good because they are fighting outnumbered against unorganized players; nobody walks away thinking anyone in that group is any good.

Guys like Josh can still fight in large fights. They just actually are good and don't have to

Giraffon

I really depend on this skill to ignore trash mobs in PvE when I'm farming or traveling. For me, RM is a QOL skill. Isn't there some way you could leave this skill intact for non-PvP zones?

Alternatively have only the caster get the snare immunity.

TheBonesXXX

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

I wonder how many ball groups with no self-awareness don't realize they are the zerg.

TheBonesXXX

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

I’m very happy with these changes as it promotes skillful play on an individual basis - something the top tier PvP groups have already been doing for a long time.

Yep.

The rage on the forums illuminates the lack of self awareness of the players.

gabriebe

It's a good change. Small to medium groups usually are built to handle their own mobility, so they don't run it. Large groups running a rapids spammer have no business trying to run away from anybody except other large groups also running with rapids spammer, so this doesn't change much. What it will change, however, are large groups currently being chased by the same amount of pugs around a keep, only to turn around and kill them with a destro ult bomb because nobody could outrun them. They will now have to deal with snares, immobilizations and having to slot a mobility skill just like everybody else. And that should make fights a little bit more even and fun.

This should also make keep defenses a little bit more interesting, as it is way too easy for any moderately skilled group to just push through a heavily defended breach with a couple barriers to pop and spamming rapids and purge.

p00tx

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The rapids spammer for each of these ball groups will have to find a new job.

I’m very happy with these changes as it promotes skillful play on an individual basis - something the top tier PvP groups have already been doing for a long time.

It is just not this, it is the whole concept of less choices on how to play.

Example, on Cyrodiil could make 12 people ball group efficiently and go against the 50+ alliance zergs with smart play and yes, Rapids being "spammed".. now, not that much can do with same efficiency. So those same 12 people might as well join the alliance stack to make it 62+ in size instead of 50+. What was the benefit?

I mean, we small scalers got our speed taken out.. should we be happy when everyone else got also nerfed?

Honestly sometimes i am amazed by this community and how it does see things.

Yeah, but as someone already said, ball groups don't do this. Time and time again, all I see them do is run into a keep, zip up onto the battlements, and run in circles around the keep while taking out one or two people at a time. The moment the zerg shows up, they dip over the side and run off for more easy prey. Just like the small scalers who will take their 3 man group to attack a single player, but run away the moment 2-3 other people show up to help the solo player. No one wants to stand and fight when the odds are even, but have no problem pounding on a group 1/5 their size. I'm not at all sad about this rapids nerf. It's way past due.

Cryptical

Then let’s have snare/immobilize removal get added to the psijic skill.

Mag characters already get only 1 activation of rapid maneuvers out of their entire stam resource bar, and have needed that snare removal/immunity to get out of range of the lone snare-dagger thrown by the npc.

So, if we are going to get dismounted because that one frakking dagger slows us down to keep us getting snared over and over, at least add the snare removal to that psijic skill line so we can still keep our irritation to a minimal boil.

BaylorCorvette

Turelus wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

If they're good players they'll adapt and continue to farm zerglings. If their entire ability to be a good player rested on one skill, I'd personally question if they were good players.

Agreed. Crutching on a rapids spammer for mobility is not being a good player. The good players & groups will adapt.

Sandman929

The change is likely to go through, it's not the victory that supporters think it is (not even close, pugs will still lose), and it's not the loss that those opposed to it think it is (though it's a significant change).

Yolokin_Swagonborn

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

Takes ZERO skill to play in a ball group. Just a strong stomach for a boring and broken playstyle.

BrokenGameMechanics

frostz417 wrote: »

You don’t see anything problematic about everyone being able to relentlessly spam snares and roots without any cooldown or draw back constantly rooting opponents down especially since almost every spammable is a snare?

Not at all its part of the game and is part of what makes combat interesting. The current problem is that it is trival for a large group to ignore that entire aspect of combact. I'm glad they are fixing it.

Undefwun

So I found a couple of instances in these notes where they did something and later on another change helped alleviate the change, IF you so choose...

Curse Eater
NEW
5 – When you heal yourself or an ally, remove two negative effects from them. If a negative effect was removed this way, your target restores 150 Magicka. This effect can occur every 2 seconds.

The only thing gonna change is instead of rapids spammers a few of the support types gonna run this on top of Cleansing Ritual...

Dracarys, Animosity and all the other groups of tower & keep wall runners and farmers of the unorganised masses will be just fine. Pretty sure within the hour of release of these notes, orders were sent on discords, sets were purchased, readied and stored for use the second this goes live.

technohic

Undefwun wrote: »

So I found a couple of instances in these notes where they did something and later on another change helped alleviate the change, IF you so choose...

Curse Eater
NEW
5 – When you heal yourself or an ally, remove two negative effects from them. If a negative effect was removed this way, your target restores 150 Magicka. This effect can occur every 2 seconds.

The only thing gonna change is instead of rapids spammers a few of the support types gonna run this on top of Cleansing Ritual...

Dracarys, Animosity and all the other groups of tower & keep wall runners and farmers of the unorganised masses will be just fine. Pretty sure within the hour of release of these notes, orders were sent on discords, sets were purchased, readied and stored for use the second this goes live.

They probably wasted their AP and gold if they did. Just like if someone would have went and got soldier of anguish last time.

Crom_CCCXVI

You might need to turn and fight instead of putting so much effort into kiting around rocks and running away

Syhae

Small scale speed got nerfed to the ground last patch which many believe was warranted, opinions aside on that matter. People have adapted to not having speed, people have adapted to having less duration on snare removal.
The moment expedition was nerfed in Murkmire, rapid maneuvers was instantly pointed at as it did not receive any changes and remained one of the most overpowered skills in the game.
This change is good and I am all for it. Small scalers are self reliant on their movement via expedition and snare removal, I see no reason why ball groups cannot be as well.

JimmyJuJu

There's snare/root immunity in this game? No c'mon - you guys are joking right now. I think I had CC immunity once when nobody was around.

Mr_Walker

Garrick wrote: »

Zerg shows up. Root, snare, root, snare, root, snare. Dead.

That's about the size of it (except you also forgot stam cost poisons in the mix). I'm not sure why anyone with an IQ above 60 would be asking for an increase in CC. In both PvE and PvP it's already out of control.

And you're about to see a lot more of it by the looks of it. So fun, such wow....

itscompton

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

LOL, standing in a ball group getting massive heals and killing people by timinig ulti dumps doesn't make you a "good" player, if you need to be in a ball group to do well in PvP I'd have other ideas about who the "trash" player actually is in that scenario.

heavier

itscompton wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am actually surprised it took thing long TBH.

I guess ball groups need more purge spam now.

Yes. Let’s punish ball groups for farming zerglings because they can’t fight back due to their lack of skill and coordination... welcome to the age where being a good player gets you punished while being rewarded for being trash

LOL, standing in a ball group getting massive heals and killing people by timinig ulti dumps doesn't make you a "good" player, if you need to be in a ball group to do well in PvP I'd have other ideas about who the "trash" player actually is in that scenario.

TIL there is literally an addon that indicates when party members' ULTs go up...

Jaraal

Fischblut wrote: »

First they reduced the speed bonus from Major Expedition. Then they took away +15% mounted speed from Cyrodiil Ward. Now another nice ability is about to be nerfed

I always have Rapids on my bar in overland PvE Literally every mob puts a snare on me by some of their attacks, so while it takes me few moments to kill it, I have to cast Rapids to get rid of annoying snare which persists even after the mob died.

Also hurts the Justice playstyle, as my thieves always have Rapids up to try and get away from rooting guards. Looks like yet again they are hurting PvE play to nerf PvP strategies. Just like they killed the Major Expedition duration on the armor sets, so that now it's completely gone after a werewolf eats to maintain form. And they butchered Swift for PvE material harvesters and questers, just so people with older systems could target better and to reduce lag in Cyrodiil.

Curious that they would make PvE play less desirable to "fix" PvP, when there are so many more people playing in PvE. Just shows where their priorities are, I guess.

Arca94

As a solo player who likes to help out with the campaign by participating in keep fights, ball groups (and the ever worsening lag) are maybe the only things that are pushing me closer and closer to quitting.

Fighting long drawn out keep fights can be really intense and fun both on the attacking side and the defending side, but as soon as a ball group shows up, most of the time it just feels like it's game over.

Currently, there is literally no counterplay to them (before anyone mentions Negate, without anything to keep the group in said Negate they just move out of it). Everything ZoS has added over the years to try combat tightly packed players (stuff like Proxy det, AoE snares and roots) has ultimately just added more strength to the ball group arsenal with Rapids totally negating the CC option. Even stacking siege often isn't effective enough to kill them.

It's gotten to the point where many players, often including myself, just abandon defending/attacking the keep since attempting to fight them yields nothing, wastes time and significantly affects the already poor performance. Even ZoS have tried to discourage this by famously asking players to "Spread out more" to reduce lag.

This is why this change to Rapids was justified and needed, and as many have pointed, most groups will be able to adapt, but at least now snaring ball groups will be an option.

As a final side note to those saying that this change and nerfing ball groups in general is bad for the game (which I've already attempted to refute above), imagine what this is like from the perspective of an entirely new player to PvP: You join Cyrodiil for the first time and find yourself defending a keep that a ball group enters. You then proceed to get wiped over and over again, while the performance is awful. What incentive is there for that player to ever come back to Cyrodiil if that's the reality of sieges as a 'zergling' or 'potato', as they are so often dismissed as?

That turns new players away from Cyrodiil, which is bad for the game.

merevie

There's only one thing worse than being run over by a ball group and that's being a member of one, with the omniscient rule of The Crown, the faded 3 keys that one is allowed to press, and the ban on actual fighting.

Everytime I see people ordered to run back up the hill by Bleaks or the mine for the 15th time, I wonder why they just don't fake an internet meltdown.

Everyone is suffering, from the level 110 pug that got 99 shards through his skull as the Warden meta blitzed by, to the poor *** in the group that killed him, 3hrs into the hell of his 'elite' guild run. (Bathroom break? Not without permission!).

What we need are a bunch of ways to form up fun and effective combinations with 6 -14 people.

Lylith

another 'fix' to a skill that wasn't broken to begin with.

Cinbri

Just like removing doors from doors towers this will make cyro more healthier.