Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Kulvar

Carbonised wrote: »

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Not being in the top 3 is meaningless.
If Almter, Breton, and Khajiit only do 1 more average DPS, Dunmer would still be 4th place.

Kulvar

winterbornb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam your need to make all changes to a flat number is going to hurt the game and *** off customers.

I welcome flat numbers in racials because it give more space to gear around them instead of gearing for them.
An Altmer will bring some Spell Resistance when a Breton will bring more Spell Damage on their respective gear setup when needed.

Villaine

@ZOS_Gilliam
or anyone at ZOS,

Please address ZOS's decision to only give one free race change token and why no name change token is being included?

Thank you.

Elijah_Crow

@ZOS_Gilliam We appreciate your work here and though I’m generally pleased with the changes, the loss of Bosmer Stealth in exchange for detection pains me.

When I have played any Elder Scrolls game in the past, the first thing I do at race selection is to pick a stealthy race and then and the first thing I do in game is try to find out how to join the Theives Guild and when done I move on to the Assassin / Dark Brotherhood / Morag Tong, etc.

The immersion of the world along with the ability to open containers and pick up most every item (particularly if it wasn’t mine) was something key in the gameplay for me.

Being able to choose if I wanted to fight or if I wanted to sneak past an encounter is why I choose the Bosmer race at launch when I created my character.

The addition of the Justice System (which was quite a wait) and the Theives Guild and Dark Brotherhood really brought this gameplay loved from the single player games to ESO and it’s been great.

What concerns me now beyond how it impacts the gameplay I have come to enjoy, is how it will impact new players coming to the game.

I know I’m not alone in the love of this play style and for new players coming to the game, the only option the character creation screen is going to really suggest if this change happens is Khajiit.

Leaving one race with an affinity for stealth gameplay isn’t expanding choice, it’s limiting it for those looking for a similar play style

My preference would be for the Bosmer to retain their stealth bonus. As has been suggested, the detection isn’t helpful when many inhabitants of the world “cannot be bothered to sneak” and would result in the only racial passive with no PvE purpose.

If that doesn’t happen I feel a better choice than what is presented, is to remove the Stealth affinity from all races and move it into the Legerdemain skill line. At least this way you are not funneling every new player who is looking for this play style into a single race.

Thank you for your time.

CleymenZero

CLiPPx wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

1 Race Change Token

What a slap in the face to all of your customers. With a HUGE change to racial passives, and ultimately changing the way the game is played, you should definitely reconsider your measly single race change token to match the number of characters an account has.

Or...

Like someone else previously stated: Give us a time period of unlimited, free race changes.

Been a customer since '14 and this is the first time I've been disappointed with ESO.

Or roll with the change and challenge yourself in making an off-meta build with the races you have been given that replaces the meta?

3rd option is easier, you explore the content without looking like a tool-bag or spending $400 dollars for no reason lol.

Ehem...did I ask for your opinion? My comment was obviously not for you, yet you felt compelled to give me your two cents anyway. Such a bag of tools YOU are.

"Roll with the change"...I take it you're a "Yes Man" and are either oblivious to--or accept--when you're being taken advantage of and don't fight back.

Anyway...when I created new characters, I created them based on their racial passives. Many hours, years even, were spent leveling and grinding to get where I'm at today. Now that the devs are doing an overhaul on racial passives, maybe...just maybe myself and 96% of other ESO players want to respec or race change due to the overhaul, which was out of our control. It only makes sense to offer a race change token for each of your characters to maintain/bolster customer trust and respect. It's not just about meta/off-meta or whatever.

ZOS: Haaayyy friend! 😏

Me: Sup

ZOS: Listen, I've got something to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna feel about it...😅

Me: Uh oh, go on...🤨🤔

ZOS: I know you've invested ~$600 in sub fees on and off over the past few years and spent 60+ days in-game time across all of your characters, but we're gonna go ahead and change all of your character's passives. So now, what used to work, won't anymore 😉. BAAAALLAAAANCE

Me: Ok, cool. I have no problem with that, but...you're going to let me race change for free since you're changing all of the passives, right?🤔

ZOS: Oh, no! Only gonna give you one race change token and you're going to have to pay for the rest of your characters if you want them changed 🤪

Me: Uhhh, excuse me? That's not a good look ZOSsy-poo. If all my characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on, which I still enjoy currently, won't yield the results I'm looking for due to your change, I'm going to have to race change them all!🤯

ZOS: Duh. 🤑

Me: You're seriously only giving us one free token?! You're expecting us to pay $30/toon because YOU decided to change everything. But that's out of my control and unwarranted.😠🤢

ZOS: Deal with it sucker. I know plenty of players that will pay!🤫🤑🤑

Me: I hate you right now.😑 (a love-hate feeling more or less)


Heck, I'd be ok with four tokens, but one?! Serious slap in the face.

Not enough of us right now complaining. And if we fought and got our tokens, everyone that told us to shut up would be so happy. I don't get them.

If you don't want the race-change token, don't use em. I need them and it is so obvious to anyone, for fairness' sake, that them turning the racial passives up and down should make them give us free race-change token. So /$%/$"? stupid!

Also, to those who say dumb things like "adapt to having non-meta race and gitgud". It is the single most stupid thing one can read.

Nefas did an interview with the leaders of the top-scoring guilds in the game. Here's what they have to say about the Meta and people not playing meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjfFN7b8VE&t=644s

If you still don't understand why I'm upset with them not compensating for their changes, you simply don't understand the matter and your inability to understand prevents the conversation from going forward.

I love the changes, don't think I have to pay to adapt. If you could grind race-change tokens, I would. Even then, if you still want to make money, do a sale for 10 for 5k crowns. That's 50$ man give me a break!

I know, right. More of us need to speak up about this. It is totally unfair to only give us one free token.

I'm cool with the passive overhaul, and like you said, I don't think it's right that we should pay extra money to change our races to re-align with what we want.

And you're right, most of us need them! Maybe if I was a player who has only been playing for a month or two it wouldn't affect me as hard, but we're talking years of play. If you have no use for them, then save them for when you do (or don't use them at all!). But ZOS needs to do what's right and not come off as just trying to make a quick buck.

Glad I'm not an isolated case....

Based on this, what do we do? We need to start something bigger than comments here and there. A poll? A thread? I don't know but I feel screwed over....

Rex-Umbra

Hope they don't decrease our stat pools with the Cp calculation. I would rather they add those stats to the base level 50 so you don't need to get used to different stat pools in no cp.

ArcticF0xx

Here you go @CleymenZero: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456620/poll-upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21

CleymenZero

ArcticF0xx wrote: »

Here you go @CleymenZero: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456620/poll-upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21

Ahh I get your point but it is not what I would ask.

My goal would be to determine how many are happy with the changes but would want to be compensated with race change tokens.

The changes incurring costs for a lot of end game players, I stand against these changes if there is no compensation.

The fact that they had the race change tokens at 16% 2 weeks or so ago is also another slap in the face.

slaet81

WOW so you killed orc's and made nord's the new meta tank's. The bretons get some small improvement's & the changes to redguard's dont help at all.All ep&ad races get improvement's and dc dont get crap thx zos.

NobleMatias

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer have always been hybrids, and if you do testing in PTS or look it up on Youtube, you will see they easily compare to other races in damage and even sustain. Why are there so many sets that are hybrid..... because ZOS has wanted that from the start. They know a lot of people like playing that way but you shouldn't be scared because Dunmer are indeed viable both ways.

NobleMatias

CLiPPx wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

1 Race Change Token

What a slap in the face to all of your customers. With a HUGE change to racial passives, and ultimately changing the way the game is played, you should definitely reconsider your measly single race change token to match the number of characters an account has.

Or...

Like someone else previously stated: Give us a time period of unlimited, free race changes.

Been a customer since '14 and this is the first time I've been disappointed with ESO.

Or roll with the change and challenge yourself in making an off-meta build with the races you have been given that replaces the meta?

3rd option is easier, you explore the content without looking like a tool-bag or spending $400 dollars for no reason lol.

Ehem...did I ask for your opinion? My comment was obviously not for you, yet you felt compelled to give me your two cents anyway. Such a bag of tools YOU are.

"Roll with the change"...I take it you're a "Yes Man" and are either oblivious to--or accept--when you're being taken advantage of and don't fight back.

Anyway...when I created new characters, I created them based on their racial passives. Many hours, years even, were spent leveling and grinding to get where I'm at today. Now that the devs are doing an overhaul on racial passives, maybe...just maybe myself and 96% of other ESO players want to respec or race change due to the overhaul, which was out of our control. It only makes sense to offer a race change token for each of your characters to maintain/bolster customer trust and respect. It's not just about meta/off-meta or whatever.

ZOS: Haaayyy friend! 😏

Me: Sup

ZOS: Listen, I've got something to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna feel about it...😅

Me: Uh oh, go on...🤨🤔

ZOS: I know you've invested ~$600 in sub fees on and off over the past few years and spent 60+ days in-game time across all of your characters, but we're gonna go ahead and change all of your character's passives. So now, what used to work, won't anymore 😉. BAAAALLAAAANCE

Me: Ok, cool. I have no problem with that, but...you're going to let me race change for free since you're changing all of the passives, right?🤔

ZOS: Oh, no! Only gonna give you one race change token and you're going to have to pay for the rest of your characters if you want them changed 🤪

Me: Uhhh, excuse me? That's not a good look ZOSsy-poo. If all my characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on, which I still enjoy currently, won't yield the results I'm looking for due to your change, I'm going to have to race change them all!🤯

ZOS: Duh. 🤑

Me: You're seriously only giving us one free token?! You're expecting us to pay $30/toon because YOU decided to change everything. But that's out of my control and unwarranted.😠🤢

ZOS: Deal with it sucker. I know plenty of players that will pay!🤫🤑🤑

Me: I hate you right now.😑 (a love-hate feeling more or less)


Heck, I'd be ok with four tokens, but one?! Serious slap in the face.

Not enough of us right now complaining. And if we fought and got our tokens, everyone that told us to shut up would be so happy. I don't get them.

If you don't want the race-change token, don't use em. I need them and it is so obvious to anyone, for fairness' sake, that them turning the racial passives up and down should make them give us free race-change token. So /$%/$"? stupid!

Also, to those who say dumb things like "adapt to having non-meta race and gitgud". It is the single most stupid thing one can read.

Nefas did an interview with the leaders of the top-scoring guilds in the game. Here's what they have to say about the Meta and people not playing meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjfFN7b8VE&t=644s

If you still don't understand why I'm upset with them not compensating for their changes, you simply don't understand the matter and your inability to understand prevents the conversation from going forward.

I love the changes, don't think I have to pay to adapt. If you could grind race-change tokens, I would. Even then, if you still want to make money, do a sale for 10 for 5k crowns. That's 50$ man give me a break!

I know, right. More of us need to speak up about this. It is totally unfair to only give us one free token.

I'm cool with the passive overhaul, and like you said, I don't think it's right that we should pay extra money to change our races to re-align with what we want.

And you're right, most of us need them! Maybe if I was a player who has only been playing for a month or two it wouldn't affect me as hard, but we're talking years of play. If you have no use for them, then save them for when you do (or don't use them at all!). But ZOS needs to do what's right and not come off as just trying to make a quick buck.

Im confused. Every race will be on par with each other mathematically, so why would you want to race change in the first place..... oh I know because you chose that race based on stats to begin with, makes sense now.

NobleMatias

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

NobleMatias

Seraphayel wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

@ZOS_Gilliam

Please take into consideration that, in order for a Dunmer to achieve "hybrid" status, they'll have to invest CP between Spell/Weapon penetration AND they'll have to split CP between Elemental Expert and Mighty. There's not way that a "hybrid" can reach the spell/weapon damage potential of any "pure" builds (ie: Altmer Sorc or Redguard StamPlar)

Perhaps a small amount of passive weapon/spell penetration could be added to assist?

Again, "hybrid" is the wrong term as it indicates that you can do all of the stuff but you're excelling at none of it - this is not the case with Dunmer. Replace "hybrid" with "versatile" and you have exactly what Dunmers will be after the changes (this is not only gameplay friendly, it fits the lore too). Great at both, Magicka and Stamina. For some builds and classes they are still the top pick out of all races with the difference that they can be great Stamina DPS now on top of being great Magicka DPS. Next to Khajiit Dunmer is the only race that can do this after the changes.

It's funny that all of the Dunmer players are complaining although they're benefitting the most from the racial adjustments. Dunmer racials don't need more benefits, they're already very strong due to their versatile capabilities.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hybrid

I do agree with you though that people get confused, and I also agree with almost all of what you said.

NobleMatias

Elvira wrote: »

Personally I think the whole idea of racial passives is stupid and source of unnecessary grieving.

Because no matter what you make, it forces min-maxing people play for a race they don't really like, if some other race has more appealing traits to their playstyle/theories. A much better solution would be simply to introduce "birth-signs" or so, which would allow to assign any "racial bonus-set" to any race at the moment of character's creation. We play "heroes", not common average Joes/Saras, and there is no reason while there couldn't be an exceptionally gifted in some area individual, even if coming from a race normally not suited for that skill.

Oh and any rather drastic "initial paradigm" change just for the change itself is evil. I've built my Dunmer sorceress around fire. For example I have Valkyn Skoria + BSW + Fire Staff synergy. With the fire-specific advantage gone I can now pretty much regear myself as I went this route mainly because of Dunmer's primary racial strength.

There have always been racial passives in Elder Scrolls. The only thing that should be changed is balance between them, so people can play what they want to play while still being competitive in an online multiplayer game, which is being addressed and races are balanced mathematically with these changes for the most part. All we need now is more uniqueness.

NobleMatias

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

Oh and thank you Gil for the update, I was late and look forward to the small changes.

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

You have not debunked anything. In fact you were responded to a number of times on page 52 of this thread. Please respond to those first.

max_only

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

K bro, let’s use that same site you want to quote everytime shall we? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: you linked the Khajiit page where they had +5 sneak. Guess what friendo, Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing. So no one gets points there.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: this is the only place you get points. Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.

You are welcome to keep trying, just know you are objectively wrong. No hard feelings buddy.

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

You can’t even read the pages you linked.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

In that chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.

Edit: this chart has the same thing
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

“”but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery.”” You wrote.

Guess what, no one is asking for lockpicking or pickpocket! We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had. Read your own links.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

Moonsorrow

max_only wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

K bro, let’s use that same site you want to quote everytime shall we? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: you linked the Khajiit page where they had +5 sneak. Guess what friendo, Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing. So no one gets points there.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: this is the only place you get points. Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.

You are welcome to keep trying, just know you are objectively wrong. No hard feelings buddy.

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

You can’t even read the pages you linked.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

In that chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.

“”but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery.”” You wrote.

Guess what, no one is asking for lockingpicking or pickpocket! We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had. Read your own links.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

I agree with it all. Well done research. @NobleMatias got just schooled to HumbleMatias.

Cundu_Ertur

To be fair, he had acknowledged a lot of this on pg 51 or 52, and went so far as to say Bosmer should probably get their stealth back. However, this is a more comprehensive rebuttal than what I or TheTraveller had put together.

NobleMatias

Moonsorrow wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

K bro, let’s use that same site you want to quote everytime shall we? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: you linked the Khajiit page where they had +5 sneak. Guess what friendo, Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing. So no one gets points there.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: this is the only place you get points. Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.

You are welcome to keep trying, just know you are objectively wrong. No hard feelings buddy.

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

You can’t even read the pages you linked.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

In that chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.

“”but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery.”” You wrote.

Guess what, no one is asking for lockingpicking or pickpocket! We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had. Read your own links.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

I agree with it all. Well done research. @NobleMatias got just schooled to HumbleMatias.

I got to say all you guys arguing, are naughty little agenda pushers. The links that I provided work perfectly and

max_only wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

K bro, let’s use that same site you want to quote everytime shall we? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: you linked the Khajiit page where they had +5 sneak. Guess what friendo, Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing. So no one gets points there.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: this is the only place you get points. Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.

You are welcome to keep trying, just know you are objectively wrong. No hard feelings buddy.

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

You can’t even read the pages you linked.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

In that chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.

Edit: this chart has the same thing
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

“”but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery.”” You wrote.

Guess what, no one is asking for lockpicking or pickpocket! We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had. Read your own links.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

Your wrong and at this point you know it. The pages I linked work perfectly fine all you have to do is scroll over the skills, and as you can see more thief related skills pertain to Khajiit more than Bosmer. Khajiit are better thiefs and deserve the sneak boost while your Bosmer are geared towards other things, get over it.

Baan Dar, the Bandit God,[1] is an obscure deity worshipped by relatively few in Tamriel. Those that do recognize him are mainly found in Valenwood and Elsweyr, "VALENWOOD AND ELSWEYR".

Main fact is that Khajiit had had more skills related to a thief while Bosmer had archery. Devs had seen this and made the change. No matter how hard you try to make your point, your point is moot.

NobleMatias

Moonsorrow wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

I have debunked this, please provide proof to back your statements up like I have, otherwise they are invalid. You can look for my facts in thread page 52 Thank you.

K bro, let’s use that same site you want to quote everytime shall we? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: you linked the Khajiit page where they had +5 sneak. Guess what friendo, Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing. So no one gets points there.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: this is the only place you get points. Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.

You are welcome to keep trying, just know you are objectively wrong. No hard feelings buddy.

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

You can’t even read the pages you linked.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

In that chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.

“”but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery.”” You wrote.

Guess what, no one is asking for lockingpicking or pickpocket! We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had. Read your own links.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

I agree with it all. Well done research. @NobleMatias got just schooled to HumbleMatias.

At this point you all are naughty little agenda pushers. I get you like your Bosmers but acting like children wont get you anywhere. Think objectively and without bias and maybe you will get something out of it. I think for all races, lore wise, race wise, and game play wise, and being selfish with just one race doesn't help anyone else but yourselves. but I guess thats why you are here on this forum thread...... for yourselves.

Bosmer: hunter
Khajiit: thief

I honestly dont mind or care if you guys get a little sneak bonus back, and I am sure everyone has heard you LOUD and clear.

StarOfElyon

I swear people are just mad cause they can't hide as well when they gank people in PVP. I don't even play a sneaky character in PVE and I've managed to do the quests in Clockwork City that required sneaking just fine.

WaitsInShadow

Most of this sounds good or at least interesting to me. Though I'm a casual/noobish player

REALLY going to miss that 10% increase in damage in stealth mode for both my Wood Elf (main toon) and Khajiit considering I generally go for a stealth play style and pretty much exclusively solo player which really helped my survival.

Are there any weapons or armor sets/jewelry that provide this bonus? (sorry been AWOL for a while).

It just makes logical sense that if an enemy doesn't hear or see you coming, you'd be able to deliver a well-placed and more critical blow.

NobleMatias

WaitsInShadow wrote: »

Most of this sounds good or at least interesting to me. Though I'm a casual/noobish player

REALLY going to miss that 10% increase in damage in stealth mode for both my Wood Elf (main toon) and Khajiit considering I generally go for a stealth play style and pretty much exclusively solo player which really helped my survival.

Are there any weapons or armor sets/jewelry that provide this bonus? (sorry been AWOL for a while).

It just makes logical sense that if an enemy doesn't hear or see you coming, you'd be able to deliver a well-placed and more critical blow.

Here you go bud.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth#Sets

WaitsInShadow

NobleMatias wrote: »

WaitsInShadow wrote: »

Most of this sounds good or at least interesting to me. Though I'm a casual/noobish player

REALLY going to miss that 10% increase in damage in stealth mode for both my Wood Elf (main toon) and Khajiit considering I generally go for a stealth play style and pretty much exclusively solo player which really helped my survival.

Are there any weapons or armor sets/jewelry that provide this bonus? (sorry been AWOL for a while).

It just makes logical sense that if an enemy doesn't hear or see you coming, you'd be able to deliver a well-placed and more critical blow.

Here you go bud.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stealth#Sets

Thanks a million!

rabidmyers

hell yeah

max_only

.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I swear people are just mad cause they can't hide as well when they gank people in PVP. I don't even play a sneaky character in PVE and I've managed to do the quests in Clockwork City that required sneaking just fine.

No that’s not the reason why.

Wether you believe us or not, we aren’t sad because we can’t gank people. If anything, Khajiit with their higher crit and larger radius will be better gankers anyway.

Take a look here and you will see a comparison. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/

Also, not one of us is asking for the extra damage, just the radius reduction. Also, if we cared about pvp we’d want to keep the passive like what is on offer because the offered passive stacks with Hasty Retreat. And stealth DETECTION is only useful in pvp, and is never used in pve. So sorry to burst that bubble, we aren’t gankers.

Also, it is fine that you can complete stealthy quests with a non-stealth race, the game would be unbalanced if it were impossible. The bottom line is that a Bosmer is not as noticeable as a Nord when crouched. Bosmer have always had a higher sneak bonus than other races, as I pointed out above, it’s not hard to understand. Altmer have always been better with arcane skills. These are just facts of this universe.

Finally, stealth detection is useless in pve all the time. Full stop. If they gave Orcs a passive to hug other players instead of a useful lore friendly passive I would be here about that too.

GrafRUS964

Good day.
Are you out of your mind? You have the Orsimer less hardy than the dark elves. And the orsimer has less health. When were elves stronger than orcs? More skillfully - perhaps, but stronger and more enduring is nonsense. In addition, in this case, your dark elves are equally good in magic and in melee combat. Obviously, this is a clear imbalance. Both logical and game. Imperials ... you made this race simply unnecessary. But the Imperials you are worth some money. In my opinion this is a hoax. If you do not have enough imagination to make a paid race interesting and relevant - return the players money and remove it from the game. The Imperials have always been a resistant race equally capable of both magic and melee combat. Steadfastly accepting all troubles and never giving up.
Make a truly universal race:
* Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
* Increases your Max Health by 1000.
* Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1000.
* When you take damage, you have a 20% chance gain 1000 Health, Stamina, Magicka.
Such an approach will not make them indispensable, but will make them relevant.

Moonsorrow

NobleMatias wrote: »

and I am sure everyone has heard you LOUD and clear.

I think everyone really have already heard YOU being very LOUD and repetitive about YOUR opinion. YOUR opinion seems to be the one you are trying to force everyone to accept as some sort of truth. While it is just.. your.. opinion.

Have a good day though.

Kulvar

NobleMatias wrote: »

Im confused. Every race will be on par with each other mathematically, so why would you want to race change in the first place..... oh I know because you chose that race based on stats to begin with, makes sense now.

Every race will be on par on the total value of their racials.
But not all races will be equal.
With the current PTS racials, it looks like this :
Magicka => Altmer, Breton
Stamina => Redguard, Bosmer
Tank => Imperial, Orc, Nord
Heal => Argonian
Jack-of-all-trades => Khajiit, Dunmer