Good PVP'ers vs. Bad PVP'ers

Yiko

MalagenR wrote: »

I just play if it's red it's dead. Maybe that's the crux, why is playing according to the way the developers built the game such a faux pas?

Maybe it's because you're incorrectly assuming that "if it's red it's dead" equates to "the way the developers built the game."

Imagine an extreme example. 3 factions, each with 1 player. This is the entirety of the game's population in Cyrodiil.
DC: 1 who plays for active combat
EP: 1 who plays for his faction's victory in the campaign, actively avoiding combat in order to take Keeps/map objectives
AD: 1 player who farms Tel'Var in Imperial City or the Delves located in Cyrodiil for gear

Each of these players has different interests and motivations, and what they're doing falls perfectly within the game's structure. You can't fault the DC for wanting to kill the EP who is sieging a Keep halfway across Cyrodiil, you can't fault the EP for doing his best to win the campaign, and you can't fault the AD for farming.

Your mistake is that you've determined that *your way* is the way the game was meant to be played, when in reality, there are multiple valid possibilities.

You could be on the opposing side of your very own argument. Someone could propose that you specifically are not playing the game in "the way the developers built the game" when you chase down a solo player with 5 others of your faction, as it's a waste of resources (in this case: people) that could have otherwise helped take map objectives to advance your faction's campaign score. (Please note that this is hypothetical. Don't make the argument that the 1 solo player would have killed the other 5 players without your assistance, thus rendering net output for your faction lower than it would have been if you had killed the solo quickly 6v1. It's just an example)

Anyways.. you can see why that doesn't work, right? People have different interests, and the game allows for them to explore those interests. You don't have to agree with how some people play the game, but you do have to acknowledge that there are various possibilities. Once you acknowledge other valid possibilities, you will hopefully stop projecting your personal value system onto others.

It's not so black and white as "most small scalers don't fight other small scalers because they're soft." Here are some reasons why players may choose not to engage other players:
As others have mentioned, one might not want to engage on an already outnumbered and disadvantaged friend that they might play with the next day.
One might find zero fulfillment in a fight that his experience has allowed him to deem a certain victory, opting instead to use that time on something more fulfilling or productive.
A group of 2 might be not engage on a group of 5 because they don't want to die. They could also choose not to engage on a group of 24 for the same reason. Maybe their motivation is that they don't want to travel across Cyrodiil again to reach a potential fight.
A group of 2 might not engage on another group of 2 because they don't want to die. Maybe their motivation is that they don't want to take an L.

Note that none of these things inherently detract from a player's skill. A good player CAN do all of these things.

There are more reasons than this, but you should get the idea. You've upset people by generalizing everyone who identifies as a small scaler as "soft" or worse players than they think they are. Yeah, that applies to a percentage of the small scale population, but a sweeping generalization isn't going to be accurate or productive. There are many more reasons why someone may choose not to engage another group.

One last point: people not fighting each other isn't exclusive to "good players" or even "players who think that they're good." All it takes is mutual respect, understanding, and/or a shared viewpoint.

Your gripes seem to be more associated with the emergent culture in ESO or gaming culture in general, though there are still others today that play like you now or in the past ("sterilizing" people and areas). Maybe you should lead by example and rather than "soloing" in extremely close proximity to friendly zergs, go out on your own or with 1-3 friends and engage on any group you see, especially those with greater numbers. Your words might hold more water then.

MalagenR

I already

Yiko wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I just play if it's red it's dead. Maybe that's the crux, why is playing according to the way the developers built the game such a faux pas?

Maybe it's because you're incorrectly assuming that "if it's red it's dead" equates to "the way the developers built the game."

Imagine an extreme example. 3 factions, each with 1 player. This is the entirety of the game's population in Cyrodiil.
DC: 1 who plays for active combat
EP: 1 who plays for his faction's victory in the campaign, actively avoiding combat in order to take Keeps/map objectives
AD: 1 player who farms Tel'Var in Imperial City or the Delves located in Cyrodiil for gear

Each of these players has different interests and motivations, and what they're doing falls perfectly within the game's structure. You can't fault the DC for wanting to kill the EP who is sieging a Keep halfway across Cyrodiil, you can't fault the EP for doing his best to win the campaign, and you can't fault the AD for farming.

Your mistake is that you've determined that *your way* is the way the game was meant to be played, when in reality, there are multiple valid possibilities.

You could be on the opposing side of your very own argument. Someone could propose that you specifically are not playing the game in "the way the developers built the game" when you chase down a solo player with 5 others of your faction, as it's a waste of resources (in this case: people) that could have otherwise helped take map objectives to advance your faction's campaign score. (Please note that this is hypothetical. Don't make the argument that the 1 solo player would have killed the other 5 players without your assistance, thus rendering net output for your faction lower than it would have been if you had killed the solo quickly 6v1. It's just an example)

Anyways.. you can see why that doesn't work, right? People have different interests, and the game allows for them to explore those interests. You don't have to agree with how some people play the game, but you do have to acknowledge that there are various possibilities. Once you acknowledge other valid possibilities, you will hopefully stop projecting your personal value system onto others.

It's not so black and white as "most small scalers don't fight other small scalers because they're soft." Here are some reasons why players may choose not to engage other players:
As others have mentioned, one might not want to engage on an already outnumbered and disadvantaged friend that they might play with the next day.
One might find zero fulfillment in a fight that his experience has allowed him to deem a certain victory, opting instead to use that time on something more fulfilling or productive.
A group of 2 might be not engage on a group of 5 because they don't want to die. They could also choose not to engage on a group of 24 for the same reason. Maybe their motivation is that they don't want to travel across Cyrodiil again to reach a potential fight.
A group of 2 might not engage on another group of 2 because they don't want to die. Maybe their motivation is that they don't want to take an L.

Note that none of these things inherently detract from a player's skill. A good player CAN do all of these things.

There are more reasons than this, but you should get the idea. You've upset people by generalizing everyone who identifies as a small scaler as "soft" or worse players than they think they are. Yeah, that applies to a percentage of the small scale population, but a sweeping generalization isn't going to be accurate or productive. There are many more reasons why someone may choose not to engage another group.

One last point: people not fighting each other isn't exclusive to "good players" or even "players who think that they're good." All it takes is mutual respect, understanding, and/or a shared viewpoint.

Your gripes seem to be more associated with the emergent culture in ESO or gaming culture in general, though there are still others today that play like you now or in the past ("sterilizing" people and areas). Maybe you should lead by example and rather than "soloing" in extremely close proximity to friendly zergs, go out on your own or with 1-3 friends and engage on any group you see, especially those with greater numbers. Your words might hold more water then.

I already do run with 2-3 players and be steamroll on occasion.

I also run solo. I think you’re right, the people I called soft got upset but then made the assumption I don’t dumpster people all day. Not the case

I participate in all forms of PVP. And operate under it’s red it’s dead.

I don’t really have a gripe haha, it’s just something I observed in regards to small scalers, many of which do exactly what I claimed they do, and stomp around the forums and zone chat with a very elitist attitude, when really they ain’t that great and wouldn’t have the stamina to make it in a game with a death penalty.

NBrookus

So...

young people are ruining your pvp
women are ruining your pvp
small scalers are ruining your pvp
people who have made friends in this game are ruining your pvp
people who cross-faction are ruining your pvp
good players are ruining your pvp
streamers are ruining your pvp
anyone who isn't a total nerd is ruining your pvp

... did I miss anyone else you want to blame while bragging about how your elite negates that you painstakingly handcrafted turn the tide of every battle where your opponent is already outnumbered?

MalagenR

Nobody is ruining my PVP. Nowhere did I say that. My negates are handcrafted awesome bombs though.

DisgracefulMind

MalagenR wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Now you’re talking about how you think women are ruining video games, this is repulsive.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying in the last 15 years in running guilds and leading raids at a high level I've noticed that lots of guild drama starts with women. This is my experience and I'm asking if other people have it too. I do not think at all that women are ruining video games. There are a ton of females I've gamed with - I mentioned Zunnie / Dark Funeral earlier from Lineage2 who was a female, who were *** epic savages.

I'm trying to manage the discussion to general pop and lowest common denominator.

And in direct argument against the SJW white knight stance you just took - do you see male streamers making money off their looks / body or female streamers doing it? Which sex is taking their clothes off in front of the camera while gaming to make cash?

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered.

I think this is quite important.
Mostly i care about the quality of a fight. Running someone over does nothing for me - it only gives points i mostly don´t care about anymore.

Do i like to win? Yes. Can i have enjoyment if i lost a fight fair and square that was actually a good fight? Yes (though eso makes this one hard because winning and losing is mostly related to bugs, glitches and bad performance these days).

For me it´s actually somewhat alienating that some people don´t understand me when i write - i just want good fights.

Completely agree with you. It's the quality of the fight. I just don't find the fun or need in running over solo players lol

I was never saying I take great pleasure in zerging down one player. I've always just looked at it like, "sorry guy/gal you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, the game was designed so that if you're red, you're dead."

And then I move on. This doesn't mean that my favorite fights aren't good fights, of course they are, that's why I save the video clips of them, whether they are wins or losses.

"- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears."

right.

Wait, when did zerging down 1 player become comparable to zerging down a small group? I thought we settled this one already?

I still do take great pleasure in helping the zerg kill the small scale group, because I know the zerg has no chance until I ride up and strategically place my negate or meteor and then go on with my day to the next location while I'm looking for good fights.

I just play if it's red it's dead. Maybe that's the crux, why is playing according to the way the developers built the game such a faux pas?

Nothing is wrong with fighting an opposing faction, I don't think anyone even came close to saying that. What would we fight in PvP if not other faction? What's being said is that you operate under the assumption that everyone should abandon any loyalties they have to people and should make no effort towards sportsmanship, and I just don't agree with you.

Vapirko

Biro123 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

.

However, I do understand your frustration. My buddy and I were playing as a duo in IC and got 5v2 by a group of good players (we held out own for a bit) but another “elite” DC just stood and watched because they were friends with that group. So yes in some senses there are very elitist players who would happily watch you get outnumbered even if you’re putting up a decent fight. But honestly this has happened all of one time in my years of Cyrodiil.

I see this ALL the time..

VERY often I see groups of 5 'good' players jumping soloers or chasing them to the ends of the earth just because said soloer is sometimes zerg surfing (as do these 'good' 5 players).

Sometimes I even see 2 groups of 5 'good' players on opposite factions actually teaming up to take on 3-4 randoms.

Now I sometimes ask myself, who are the better players.. the 5 who regularly fight greater numbers of noobs and get loads of kills with co-ordinated ultimate dumps, or the random 1's who regularly fight coordinated groups of good players and can hold their own against them for a reasonable amount of time..?

Yeah well you also have to realize that, almost without exception, everyone in Cyrodiil and BGs is a giant hypocrite lol. EVERYBODY zergs or Xv1s or outnumbers in some form or another. Do not believe anyone if they tell you they don’t. And often times the saltiest people in PvP are the small scalers. I completely agree that a 6v1 is no better than a 20v5 or a 10v2 or whatever. You can be the best PvPer on a given server hands down, and if you decide to Xv1 some poor scrub you’re still doing just that, no matter if you need the numbers or not. But anyway my answer was more in response to the OP about certain groups or soloers avoiding certain other groups or individual players.

frozywozy

CyrusArya wrote: »

My most recent Stamplar clips featured more 1000+ cp, geared, and experienced PVP’ers than people under the cp cap. I always make it a point to showcase fights vs worthy opponents that know what they are doing.

Props for that! Wish more people would follow the same trend.

MalagenR

EDIT

MalagenR

CyrusArya wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Nobody made the conclusions you're drawing from my statements. Of course some people who put out videos put them out the way you do.

You're ignoring the fact that you are a special case. I think the majority of players who do small scale don't actually behave like you.

Also, I think that the PC culture is significantly different from the PS4 culture. This has been true of all video games that existed on PC / PS4.

The PC players will always be far more skilled in my opinion due to the skill level of the entire population being raised through the requirement of mods by "communities" guilds w/e you want to call them.

Cyrus - I honestly don't think you're just a potato killer - but that doesn't mean that a good majority of your friends might be.

Thank you for at least acknowledging my point of view. I can see where a lot of the frustration might stem from, in seeing people of your own faction be so apathetic towards what you may consider how the game is "meant" to be played. I would just ask that you consider this: maybe certain players feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the format of pvp that they advocate and represent, and so by extension the community that also champions this common style of play- regardless of which color the flag above their head is.

At the end of the day, its just a game, and what people enjoy therein varies. Some like to pursue challenging outnumbered fights. Some enjoy cooperating and collaborating with friends to form highly efficient groups and guilds. Some feel strong loyalty to their faction and wish to see it prosper. Some enjoy the fast paced action of bgs and some are Stormhaven heroes that duel all day. Some enjoy all of the above. To each their own. A lot of the contention among the various styles of play comes from a lack of mutual understanding I believe.

Just watched your Stamplar wolfhunter video. You're very good at side stepping as a means for natural mitigation, using invincibility frames and loss of target due to the fact that it's an "action MMO".

But, most of the people getting smashed in the video are idiots.

MalagenR

Vapirko wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

.

However, I do understand your frustration. My buddy and I were playing as a duo in IC and got 5v2 by a group of good players (we held out own for a bit) but another “elite” DC just stood and watched because they were friends with that group. So yes in some senses there are very elitist players who would happily watch you get outnumbered even if you’re putting up a decent fight. But honestly this has happened all of one time in my years of Cyrodiil.

I see this ALL the time..

VERY often I see groups of 5 'good' players jumping soloers or chasing them to the ends of the earth just because said soloer is sometimes zerg surfing (as do these 'good' 5 players).

Sometimes I even see 2 groups of 5 'good' players on opposite factions actually teaming up to take on 3-4 randoms.

Now I sometimes ask myself, who are the better players.. the 5 who regularly fight greater numbers of noobs and get loads of kills with co-ordinated ultimate dumps, or the random 1's who regularly fight coordinated groups of good players and can hold their own against them for a reasonable amount of time..?

Yeah well you also have to realize that, almost without exception, everyone in Cyrodiil and BGs is a giant hypocrite lol. EVERYBODY zergs or Xv1s or outnumbers in some form or another. Do not believe anyone if they tell you they don’t. And often times the saltiest people in PvP are the small scalers. I completely agree that a 6v1 is no better than a 20v5 or a 10v2 or whatever. You can be the best PvPer on a given server hands down, and if you decide to Xv1 some poor scrub you’re still doing just that, no matter if you need the numbers or not. But anyway my answer was more in response to the OP about certain groups or soloers avoiding certain other groups or individual players.

Was kind of my point haha - I'm not sure where all the small scalers who came in and said -

"STOP CRYING ABOUT HOW YOUR PVP SUCKS"

comes from - I don't think it sucks - I think their behavior is hilarious - they sit atop their white stallion wearing their shiny white armor - but are fake asf.

p00tx

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Careful there buddy. You are AGAIN making generalizations that don't hold water. That other female poster may be of the "I don't hit my friends" school of gaming, but that does NOT mean every female is. There are plenty of us who kill any and every person we encounter who isn't on our team. I'd kill my own grandma in Cyrodil if she rolled a red or yellow, no matter how fair or unfair it was, because she was stupid enough to roll a faction I don't play for. Sorry not sorry.

I was actually a little on board with you until you started the whole Incel argument. You've totally lost me now. If you want to find out how women in this game really play, I'd invite you to find me in Cyrodil without your sweaty little hoard of slobbering, screeching, unwashed zerglings and I'll show you just how 'soft' we are(n't).

MalagenR

p00tx wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Careful there buddy. You are AGAIN making generalizations that don't hold water. That other female poster may be of the "I don't hit my friends" school of gaming, but that does NOT mean every female is. There are plenty of us who kill any and every person we encounter who isn't on our team. I'd kill my own grandma in Cyrodil if she rolled a red or yellow, no matter how fair or unfair it was, because she was stupid enough to roll a faction I don't play for. Sorry not sorry.

I was actually a little on board with you until you started the whole Incel argument. You've totally lost me now. If you want to find out how women in this game really play, I'd invite you to find me in Cyrodil without your sweaty little hoard of slobbering, screeching, unwashed zerglings and I'll show you just how 'soft' we are(n't).

lol.. can't believe you just called me an incel - that's super offensive, you have no idea who I am, I wasn't generalizing, I was literally asking about a personal experience and seeing if anyone could corroborate.

But, if you play on PS4 I'd be happy to come find you. Nevermind, I see you play on xBox. I think you should just lay off the feminist candy you're eating and realize I wasn't making just generalized comments. Please show me the links to Twitch accounts where men take their clothes off for money. I'll wait.

Side note: I have a fiance, and her ring will make you blind

You also skipped over the part where I've said I've played with a ton of super bad ass females. Like really *** good. Not sure what to tell you if you don't read everything I type and jump down my throat because I'm explaining that in my experience 95% of guild drama starts with a woman.

TBois

MalagenR wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Careful there buddy. You are AGAIN making generalizations that don't hold water. That other female poster may be of the "I don't hit my friends" school of gaming, but that does NOT mean every female is. There are plenty of us who kill any and every person we encounter who isn't on our team. I'd kill my own grandma in Cyrodil if she rolled a red or yellow, no matter how fair or unfair it was, because she was stupid enough to roll a faction I don't play for. Sorry not sorry.

I was actually a little on board with you until you started the whole Incel argument. You've totally lost me now. If you want to find out how women in this game really play, I'd invite you to find me in Cyrodil without your sweaty little hoard of slobbering, screeching, unwashed zerglings and I'll show you just how 'soft' we are(n't).

lol.. can't believe you just called me an incel - that's super offensive, you have no idea who I am, I wasn't generalizing, I was literally asking about a personal experience and seeing if anyone could corroborate.

But, if you play on PS4 I'd be happy to come find you. Nevermind, I see you play on xBox. I think you should just lay off the feminist candy you're eating and realize I wasn't making just generalized comments. Please show me the links to Twitch accounts where men take their clothes off for money. I'll wait.

Side note: I have a fiance, and her ring will make you blind

You also skipped over the part where I've said I've played with a ton of super bad ass females. Like really *** good. Not sure what to tell you if you don't read everything I type and jump down my throat because I'm explaining that in my experience 95% of guild drama starts with a woman.

That probably has more to do with the audience than the streamers

MalagenR

TBois wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Careful there buddy. You are AGAIN making generalizations that don't hold water. That other female poster may be of the "I don't hit my friends" school of gaming, but that does NOT mean every female is. There are plenty of us who kill any and every person we encounter who isn't on our team. I'd kill my own grandma in Cyrodil if she rolled a red or yellow, no matter how fair or unfair it was, because she was stupid enough to roll a faction I don't play for. Sorry not sorry.

I was actually a little on board with you until you started the whole Incel argument. You've totally lost me now. If you want to find out how women in this game really play, I'd invite you to find me in Cyrodil without your sweaty little hoard of slobbering, screeching, unwashed zerglings and I'll show you just how 'soft' we are(n't).

lol.. can't believe you just called me an incel - that's super offensive, you have no idea who I am, I wasn't generalizing, I was literally asking about a personal experience and seeing if anyone could corroborate.

But, if you play on PS4 I'd be happy to come find you. Nevermind, I see you play on xBox. I think you should just lay off the feminist candy you're eating and realize I wasn't making just generalized comments. Please show me the links to Twitch accounts where men take their clothes off for money. I'll wait.

Side note: I have a fiance, and her ring will make you blind

You also skipped over the part where I've said I've played with a ton of super bad ass females. Like really *** good. Not sure what to tell you if you don't read everything I type and jump down my throat because I'm explaining that in my experience 95% of guild drama starts with a woman.

That probably has more to do with the audience than the streamers

LOL dude this argument is so frail - men have biological switches to be attracted to women - naturally men are going to watch women who take their clothes off on the stream, the women know this, and do it purposely to achieve monetary gain.

I'm not saying they aren't pathetic. Anyways this is going off topic. But that feminist is off her rocker if she believes that I don't think women can be amazing gamers. I absolutely do.

technohic

Long way of saying that God papers make their living off killing bad one but you're right as far as Cyrodiil goes. It goes both ways though when you dont just limit your view to skill. Big zergs sure aren't against mowing down just 1 guy which often lends them to the favor of the better players.

MalagenR

technohic wrote: »

Long way of saying that God papers make their living off killing bad one but you're right as far as Cyrodiil goes. It goes both ways though when you dont just limit your view to skill. Big zergs sure aren't against mowing down just 1 guy which often lends them to the favor of the better players.

yeah but my point is that the small scalers do the exact same *** -

They actually believe that there is a difference between their 3 man group zerging down 1 guy

vs

9 people zerging down their group of 3

what they do is make some wild excuse about how that 1 guy they zerged down is someone they see zerg surfing all of the time so he deserves it...

hahahah what they really do is kill the zerg surfer that is on their death recap very often because they are pissed and aren't yet friends with him. once they become friends then they'll start ignoring him.

which further supports the point I made - what they are trying to do is ween off the skillful players from interfering with their potato farming and accept them into their "white knight" club so they can avoid dying to them more often - i.e. ducking hard fights so they can farm potatoes

i.e. - they are guilty for the behavior they loathe so much very often

MalagenR

frozywozy wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

My most recent Stamplar clips featured more 1000+ cp, geared, and experienced PVP’ers than people under the cp cap. I always make it a point to showcase fights vs worthy opponents that know what they are doing.

Props for that! Wish more people would follow the same trend.

Don't buy it - watched the Stamplar video - most of the people getting smacked play like idiots. It's not a PVP video, it's a highlight video.

CyrusArya

MalagenR wrote: »

Just watched your Stamplar wolfhunter video. You're very good at side stepping as a means for natural mitigation, using invincibility frames and loss of target due to the fact that it's an "action MMO".

But, most of the people getting smashed in the video are idiots.

Well they obviously aren't super stars, but they arent clueless "noobs" either as some are purporting. Its pretty representative of what the average player looks like. Good players don't get 1vxed or small scaled, but this doesn't mean an instance of an outnumbered fight is a faceroll just because the individual opponents are weaker. The style of pvp is death by a thousand cuts. And one that gets increasingly more difficult each passing patch.

At the end of the day though, making definitive assessments of "good" and "bad" or evaluating skill is pretty pointless in a game where there are no quantitative metrics of such things. Its all qualitative analysis of how well a specific person or group can exhibit mastery of class and game mechanics. The fact of the matter is though, the cross section of players that can successfully small scale is more limited than any other grouping of pvpers in the game.

MalagenR

CyrusArya wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Just watched your Stamplar wolfhunter video. You're very good at side stepping as a means for natural mitigation, using invincibility frames and loss of target due to the fact that it's an "action MMO".

But, most of the people getting smashed in the video are idiots.

Well they obviously aren't super stars, but they arent clueless "noobs" either as some are purporting. Its pretty representative of what the average player looks like. Good players don't get 1vxed or small scaled, but this doesn't mean an instance of an outnumbered fight is a faceroll just because the individual opponents are weaker. The style of pvp is death by a thousand cuts. And one that gets increasingly more difficult each passing patch.

At the end of the day though, making definitive assessments of "good" and "bad" or evaluating skill is pretty pointless in a game where there are no quantitative metrics of such things. Its all qualitative analysis of how well a specific person or group can exhibit mastery of class and game mechanics. The fact of the matter is though, the cross section of players that can successfully small scale is more limited than any other grouping of pvpers in the game.

Look, you're good at the game, of that I have no doubt. But you're lying to yourself when you say they aren't noobs. Half the time they aren't even putting damage on you because of how well you strafe side to side, and they don't even realize it, they stand around like mum idiots, which means they are button mashers.

I think we just discovered why we disagree. My definition of "noob" is much stricter than yours.

I should add, I'm saying this all with the knowledge that you actually just taught me something that I have not been using, I'm good about targeting people who side step but I've never used it as a form of mitigation for myself as a Sorc.

I've been considering a brawler type build for MagSorc with high resists and Dawnbreaker slotted, your video gave me stupidly good idea's, and admittedly you're better than I am, I mean your ability to track the target as you strafe left to right is really good.

Also, the problem is that this is much easier to do on PC vs. PS4 - not sure of the controls but side stepping like that in PC games is usually a bit easier.

CyrusArya

MalagenR wrote: »

Look, you're good at the game, of that I have no doubt. But you're lying to yourself when you say they aren't noobs. Half the time they aren't even putting damage on you because of how well you strafe side to side, and they don't even realize it, they stand around like mum idiots, which means they are button mashers.

I think we just discovered why we disagree. My definition of "noob" is much stricter than yours.

I should add, I'm saying this all with the knowledge that you actually just taught me something that I have not been using, I'm good about targeting people who side step but I've never used it as a form of mitigation for myself as a Sorc.

I've been considering a brawler type build for MagSorc with high resists and Dawnbreaker slotted, your video gave me stupidly good idea's, and admittedly you're better than I am, I mean your ability to track the target as you strafe left to right is really good.

Also, the problem is that this is much easier to do on PC vs. PS4 - not sure of the controls but side stepping like that in PC games is usually a bit easier.

By the numbers and ranks the opponents are objectively representative of the average. My duo video has multiple organized guilds getting small scaled as well. Admittedly I have a few cakewalks in there for entertainment value, but a lot of fights do show noticeable pressure to both health and resources. I don't wanna make this about me though, that's not the point at all. I was just using that as an example. I think its fairly obvious to everyone that no one is 1vxing or small scaling equal caliber opponents. Will never happen. This doesn't take away from the fact that proper small scale fights are very difficult to pull off in recent patches given even "average" opponents. Even if the constituent members of the "X" are individually weaker, as a collective they are a formidable opponent.

Its not about some constructed notion of "skill". Anyone can pull off 1vX or small scale- its just a matter of being good enough and being at the right place at the right time and finding the right group of people to fight. Rather, to me, these fights are like puzzles- where you or your group are encountered with a discrete challenge and have to overcome it using the tools and resources at your disposal. I love the challenge of cracking that puzzle, and I love watching other people do the same. Not just whether it is solved, but more importantly how. Cus in that how is great insight into the functionality of various classes and mechanics to improve as a player- exactly as you have just said you gained insight from watching my video.

Think about it like this, and I think this is the best way I can put it. 1vX and small scale is not like boxing, and we are not claiming that it is either. Dueling and GvG is like boxing- an actual structured competition between two skilled combatants. Rather, Solo&Small Scale is more like gymnastics- a demonstration of form and function. Think: Competition vs Exhibition. I hope that makes some degree of sense, and sheds some light on my perspective.

SugaComa

I was almost on the OPs side side till the last few paragraphs where he turned into a pompous arse.

I came from socom a game where skill was important as was team work ... It was also a game where the community self regulated ... If a player on your team was running something that considered op

The community shut them down by that your own team and guild (clan) would bar you from groups till you changed your setup

The thing I also learned from this game was competing against players not as good as you didn't help you improve in fact often made you worse as you got complacent

Even in ESO I recognise the good players on the field ... And I'm not afriad to go toe to toe with them cos it's fighting them that helps me get better

Do these players get zerged down... Yes ...

Don I wait for the zerg to turn up before engaging ...hell no ... I want the victory over them to be mine ... but my victories are few n far between ... But my constant engagement with them is making me improve ... In that once the would kill me in near seconds ... Now it's longer for done it's minutes longer

MalagenR

SugaComa wrote: »

I was almost on the OPs side side till the last few paragraphs where he turned into a pompous arse.

I came from socom a game where skill was important as was team work ... It was also a game where the community self regulated ... If a player on your team was running something that considered op

The community shut them down by that your own team and guild (clan) would bar you from groups till you changed your setup

The thing I also learned from this game was competing against players not as good as you didn't help you improve in fact often made you worse as you got complacent

Even in ESO I recognise the good players on the field ... And I'm not afriad to go toe to toe with them cos it's fighting them that helps me get better

Do these players get zerged down... Yes ...

Don I wait for the zerg to turn up before engaging ...hell no ... I want the victory over them to be mine ... but my victories are few n far between ... But my constant engagement with them is making me improve ... In that once the would kill me in near seconds ... Now it's longer for done it's minutes longer

you don't have to like me to agree with me

Haashhtaag

MalagenR wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

My most recent Stamplar clips featured more 1000+ cp, geared, and experienced PVP’ers than people under the cp cap. I always make it a point to showcase fights vs worthy opponents that know what they are doing.

Props for that! Wish more people would follow the same trend.

Don't buy it - watched the Stamplar video - most of the people getting smacked play like idiots. It's not a PVP video, it's a highlight video.

Almost all highlight videos are against average at best players. You’re ps4 NA?

MalagenR

CyrusArya wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Look, you're good at the game, of that I have no doubt. But you're lying to yourself when you say they aren't noobs. Half the time they aren't even putting damage on you because of how well you strafe side to side, and they don't even realize it, they stand around like mum idiots, which means they are button mashers.

I think we just discovered why we disagree. My definition of "noob" is much stricter than yours.

I should add, I'm saying this all with the knowledge that you actually just taught me something that I have not been using, I'm good about targeting people who side step but I've never used it as a form of mitigation for myself as a Sorc.

I've been considering a brawler type build for MagSorc with high resists and Dawnbreaker slotted, your video gave me stupidly good idea's, and admittedly you're better than I am, I mean your ability to track the target as you strafe left to right is really good.

Also, the problem is that this is much easier to do on PC vs. PS4 - not sure of the controls but side stepping like that in PC games is usually a bit easier.

By the numbers and ranks the opponents are objectively representative of the average. My duo video has multiple organized guilds getting small scaled as well. Admittedly I have a few cakewalks in there for entertainment value, but a lot of fights do show noticeable pressure to both health and resources. I don't wanna make this about me though, that's not the point at all. I was just using that as an example. I think its fairly obvious to everyone that no one is 1vxing or small scaling equal caliber opponents. Will never happen. This doesn't take away from the fact that proper small scale fights are very difficult to pull off in recent patches given even "average" opponents. Even if the constituent members of the "X" are individually weaker, as a collective they are a formidable opponent.

Its not about some constructed notion of "skill". Anyone can pull off 1vX or small scale- its just a matter of being good enough and being at the right place at the right time and finding the right group of people to fight. Rather, to me, these fights are like puzzles- where you or your group are encountered with a discrete challenge and have to overcome it using the tools and resources at your disposal. I love the challenge of cracking that puzzle, and I love watching other people do the same. Not just whether it is solved, but more importantly how. Cus in that how is great insight into the functionality of various classes and mechanics to improve as a player- exactly as you have just said you gained insight from watching my video.

Think about it like this, and I think this is the best way I can put it. 1vX and small scale is not like boxing, and we are not claiming that it is either. Dueling and GvG is like boxing- an actual structured competition between two skilled combatants. Rather, Solo&Small Scale is more like gymnastics- a demonstration of form and function. Think: Competition vs Exhibition. I hope that makes some degree of sense, and sheds some light on my perspective.

All I see is you making a bunch of mashed potatoes in the solo video. Which is exactly what I mentioned in my original post. I'd like to see some videos of you dying 2v1 or 1v1 to good players. You don't have to win for it to be a good fight.

show me your good fights you're so stoked on to prove you aren't just a potato smasher - let me know how many hours of video you have smashing potatoes vs. fighting skilled players -

Then tell me I'm wrong about the fact that the majority of the time you're avoiding the best players while in open world so you can get highlight clips.

I'm not saying what you're doing is bad or good - I just think it's funny.

Haashhtaag

Lol watching arya lose 1v1 is literally a 6-10 minutes fight most of the time bring closer to 10.

MalagenR

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Lol watching arya lose 1v1 is literally a 6-10 minutes fight most of the time bring closer to 10.

Those are the best fights though, they're such good fights, those are the types of fights small scalers are constantly looking for....why don't I see any in the last video?

And I'm not talking about a pre-arranged duel where Arya has time to change builds / gear to perfectly prepare for said opponent. I'm talking - open world build - mashed potato build - fighting another l33t small scale pvper in open world.

Where are the clips boy!?

Haashhtaag

MalagenR wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Lol watching arya lose 1v1 is literally a 6-10 minutes fight most of the time bring closer to 10.

Those are the best fights though, they're such good fights, those are the types of fights small scalers are constantly looking for....why don't I see any in the last video?

And I'm not talking about a pre-arranged duel where Arya has time to change builds / gear to perfectly prepare for said opponent. I'm talking - open world build - mashed potato build - fighting another l33t small scale pvper in open world.

Where are the clips boy!?

Personally as a small scaler we look for outnumbered fights. But if 2 guys choose to attack us what are we supposed to do? The only people we truly “zerg” Down when we catch are those who wear tabards such as AoTP, vae victus, kush, dreadlords, and the plethora of DC zerg guilds.


I’m sure arya has plenty of videos to show you. But as I already stated prior that most 1vX or small scale action is against average at best players no matter the platform.

The GvG stuff takes place in structured environment. Most cases the higher end small scale guilds don’t fight each other in open world because that’s not the objective for each.


Same with 1vX people there is a mutual understanding that each other aren’t the objective. Although 1vX is on its death bed atm.


I assume you play ps4 NA?

Derra

MalagenR wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

.

However, I do understand your frustration. My buddy and I were playing as a duo in IC and got 5v2 by a group of good players (we held out own for a bit) but another “elite” DC just stood and watched because they were friends with that group. So yes in some senses there are very elitist players who would happily watch you get outnumbered even if you’re putting up a decent fight. But honestly this has happened all of one time in my years of Cyrodiil.

I see this ALL the time..

VERY often I see groups of 5 'good' players jumping soloers or chasing them to the ends of the earth just because said soloer is sometimes zerg surfing (as do these 'good' 5 players).

Sometimes I even see 2 groups of 5 'good' players on opposite factions actually teaming up to take on 3-4 randoms.

Now I sometimes ask myself, who are the better players.. the 5 who regularly fight greater numbers of noobs and get loads of kills with co-ordinated ultimate dumps, or the random 1's who regularly fight coordinated groups of good players and can hold their own against them for a reasonable amount of time..?

Yeah well you also have to realize that, almost without exception, everyone in Cyrodiil and BGs is a giant hypocrite lol. EVERYBODY zergs or Xv1s or outnumbers in some form or another. Do not believe anyone if they tell you they don’t. And often times the saltiest people in PvP are the small scalers. I completely agree that a 6v1 is no better than a 20v5 or a 10v2 or whatever. You can be the best PvPer on a given server hands down, and if you decide to Xv1 some poor scrub you’re still doing just that, no matter if you need the numbers or not. But anyway my answer was more in response to the OP about certain groups or soloers avoiding certain other groups or individual players.

Was kind of my point haha - I'm not sure where all the small scalers who came in and said -

"STOP CRYING ABOUT HOW YOUR PVP SUCKS"

comes from - I don't think it sucks - I think their behavior is hilarious - they sit atop their white stallion wearing their shiny white armor - but are fake asf.

I don´t think anyone who just plays the game in a way for them to have fun can be fake af.

It´s sth different if they´d open topic about being the best and whatever - but i´ve honestly never seen that. You´re critisizing people that found a way for them to have fun in a game.

I could understand if it was the kind of fun that´s entirely dependant on ruining the fun for someone else - but from my experience most smallscalers don´t do that. They probably give more choice if someone wants to participate in what they find fun than any other player type (zergling at a keep, ganker, whatever).
If you don´t want to fight them don´t attack them.

I honestly find it strange to critizise those kind of players and not for example the sneak heroes that sit in invisibility for 10 mins waiting for an enemy to go afk before attacking...


Maybe they´re even RP players like i am.
My characters happen to have a very strict code of honour and a deep rooted belief that helping an ally in a 1v1 or god forbid already outnumbering an opponent just weakens the army and military power of the respective alliance they fight for - by keeping unworthy combatants alive for longer than their fate intended for them to be.

TBois

Where can I add myself to the list of self proclaimed small scalers who DO fight others of the same level even when outnumbered? Now I would leave these groups alone if they were fighting a AotP or another much larger guild and if they were open field or resource farming. The thing is there isn't an audience for viewing these clips, as there is no drama (numbers will win).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX_l999oSGQ&t=120s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnC4526IMO8&t=190s

So you just see highlight reels because that is what the audience wants to view, but that is not all people do.

Edit: Maybe I would play like you say Lineage players played, if I cared about my faction winning the campaign or if I didn't have to play horse simulator after a lose.

MalagenR

Haashhtaag wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Lol watching arya lose 1v1 is literally a 6-10 minutes fight most of the time bring closer to 10.

Those are the best fights though, they're such good fights, those are the types of fights small scalers are constantly looking for....why don't I see any in the last video?

And I'm not talking about a pre-arranged duel where Arya has time to change builds / gear to perfectly prepare for said opponent. I'm talking - open world build - mashed potato build - fighting another l33t small scale pvper in open world.

Where are the clips boy!?

Personally as a small scaler we look for outnumbered fights. But if 2 guys choose to attack us what are we supposed to do? The only people we truly “zerg” Down when we catch are those who wear tabards such as AoTP, vae victus, kush, dreadlords, and the plethora of DC zerg guilds.


I’m sure arya has plenty of videos to show you. But as I already stated prior that most 1vX or small scale action is against average at best players no matter the platform.

The GvG stuff takes place in structured environment. Most cases the higher end small scale guilds don’t fight each other in open world because that’s not the objective for each.


Same with 1vX people there is a mutual understanding that each other aren’t the objective. Although 1vX is on its death bed atm.


I assume you play ps4 NA?

Yes I do, I'm sure you know PS4 NA is super toxic, which might be where you are going with this.

So we've basically finally gotten to the point where someone had enough balls to be honest about exactly what I was saying.

You're avoiding other small scale groups in Open World. That's all I was saying. That's why a majority of people came here to flame me. Thank you for being honest about it.

"I’m sure arya has plenty of videos to show you. But as I already stated prior that most 1vX or small scale action is against average at best players no matter the platform.

The GvG stuff takes place in structured environment. Most cases the higher end small scale guilds don’t fight each other in open world because that’s not the objective for each.


Same with 1vX people there is a mutual understanding that each other aren’t the objective. Although 1vX is on its death bed atm. "

This is exactly what I was saying. You're looking to crush potatoes unless you can structure a fair 1v1 or GvG against people of equal or competent playability.

Yet, you hate on the people who zerg surf and help the zerg kill you.

You're purposely avoiding each other in Open World

I guess the only real combative point I made, which I still stand by, is that the reason you avoid these guys in Open World isn't because of some perceived honor code, even though many of you might think that, but because both parties are subconsciously agreeing to avoid giving the other losses so they can continue to ride high atop their white stallion.

If a crew from Lineage2 or EVE Online was playing this game they would completely sterilize the small scale elitists. Because you'd be killed without question, regardless of external factors, for the simple fact of being red, so often and so constantly that you'd eventually quit out of boredom.

YOU AIN'T GOT THE STAMINA TO FIGHT GOOD PLAYERS CONSTANTLY, ONLY WHEN YOU'VE CREATED AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE BOTH PARTIES CAN AGREE THAT EVERYTHING IS 100% FAIR.

To me that is the anti-thesis of defining a "good open world PVP" - which is what I see 95% of you complaining about on the forums and in zone chat every week.

Not you specifically of course, or even Arya.