Good PVP'ers vs. Bad PVP'ers

mague

Yesterday i died all the way from Galdemist to Faregyl, defending every keep and outpost. Everytime it was a horrible death by stampede, lag and CC. But i dont care, because they pay me with AP and i can buy motifs for it Thats currently the best objective i can think of.

Forget about the good old times where all factions stood in one spot to harvest or fish because useless killing was stupid and did cost xp/ap and money. In a certain game you could go bancrupt from rapair and your merc then refused to work for you

Imagine your room rent, the guild mechands and all vendors of AD are based on taxes connected to the state of the war ? An repair costs and xp loss and no CC and no gear sets ? Then you could be good and when the good turn into badass they get the zerg. Thats how the MMO god wanted it basically . But no we live in godless times where vampires hide their face and everyone is charging their weapon with stolen soulpower while the forums chant: Necro, necro, necro...

zyk

Thogard wrote: »

The person that I’ve died to the most is also the person that I’ve killed the most is also the person I group with the most (on alts).

frozywozy

MalagenR wrote: »

Thus, you either haven't played lots of MMO PVP games, or you haven't yet recognized your ask is incredibly hard to fulfill. If you can't find a way to work around this, large scale PVP and organized PVP at scale is not your cup of tea.

I don't want to burst your bubble, you did dropped alot of very great point and knowledge into this thread but it does not take 400 IQ to understand how disconnected most devs are with the game and how better it could have been if they simply played it on a regular basis to observe all the obvious issues we have been experiencing for the past 5years.

All the times I have read green posts proving that they just realized something bad was going on when we have been reporting it for years straight in dozens of threads. They need way more employees and interests into their game. More ZOS employees playing the game, reading forums, collecting information related to bugs and game balance.

eliisra

To be fair, you can't expect people to roam around, specifically looking for only "good" players to fight and avoid the rest. You'd spend half the day just riding around, not getting any fun or doing something constructive in terms of objectives.

But it's true that some PvP'ing no-lifers that runs solo&small groups avoid attacking each other. Mainly because all of them is 24/7 in Cyrodill and they know each other. They have this code or gentleman's agreement, where they only attack each other if numbers are reasonably equal or fair.

I can see how that's provoking, if you're being slaughtered and there's people from your own faction just watching and not helping(because the guy killing you is their buddy). It's a d-bag move imo, but for them, respect and loyalty with other solo or small scale PvP'ers is more important than faction pride. So there's that.

barshemm

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

kylewwefan

I’ve never played any other MMO. The only real PvP I could compare this to is CoD. I was terrible at CoD and only played with friends. Some people would get better over time playing, but I never really did. If they weren’t my friends, they’d probably be upset this guy that was so bad kept getting grouped up with them.

I’m still pretty terrible at this games PvP, but I’ll get out there and play for fun anyways. Every now and then I get a chance to beat up on a potato. We have to relish these moments. PvP here is much like Normal vs Vet Trial Level content. It’s either super easy or way too hard.

I think a lot of players get frustrated with constantly losing in PvP and just wont go back. They’ll refuse to have any interest in it. I did for a long time. Maybe you occasionally go in as a big group or something.

Half the battle is putting together a good PvP build and changing CP for it. To be any kind of successful you have to fully invest in it. But before you get to that point, you need to get interested in it. Realize sets and builds carry players a long way. Trials and dungeon builds are mostly gonna be straight poo in PvP.

Take battlegrounds for example. They’re a mixed bag. Take a little notice of death recaps. When you see something like Calurians or Sloads, Soul Assault, Etc. You know you’re actually fighting PvP ers. You see endless hail, caltrops, wall of elements, liquid lightning....these guys are most likely PvE guys trying to get a random in. Winning against that isn’t really something to boost the ego on.

Same thing with Dueling. I’ve had a few fights where these guys are around my level of experience fighting and they’re quite enjoyable! Beating up on someone in PvE gear waiting for dungeon to pop, not so much. Then there’s the guys that are really good. Not fun to me. Not fun for them. I guess they’re waiting for a good fight to come from somewhere. GL. I ain’t got nothing for ya. They’re probably also beastly in Cyrodil. Good thing the Zerg is there to take em down!

Soris

Thogard wrote: »

The person that I’ve died to the most is also the person that I’ve killed the most is also the person I group with the most (on alts).

Hahaha this next level. I'll give you an awesome 😂

IxSTALKERxI

Vapirko wrote: »

First of all you just don’t see it happen, because it does. Good small scale groups often fight each other. However these fights whether it be a good 1v1 or 5v5 tend to be long and drawn out because each group is very competent.

*because game isn't balanced.

Fixed that for you...

I miss the days when duels lasted less than 2 hrs.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

There cant really be much talk about “skill“ in eso anyways tbh.

Any person with 100 iq can come within 95% efficieny of anyone else (a guess but not completely groundless).

Eso pvp combat tactics isnt a complex enough thing to allow for massive skill differences between the player base.

MalagenR

Biro123 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

.

However, I do understand your frustration. My buddy and I were playing as a duo in IC and got 5v2 by a group of good players (we held out own for a bit) but another “elite” DC just stood and watched because they were friends with that group. So yes in some senses there are very elitist players who would happily watch you get outnumbered even if you’re putting up a decent fight. But honestly this has happened all of one time in my years of Cyrodiil.

I see this ALL the time..

VERY often I see groups of 5 'good' players jumping soloers or chasing them to the ends of the earth just because said soloer is sometimes zerg surfing (as do these 'good' 5 players).

Sometimes I even see 2 groups of 5 'good' players on opposite factions actually teaming up to take on 3-4 randoms.

Now I sometimes ask myself, who are the better players.. the 5 who regularly fight greater numbers of noobs and get loads of kills with co-ordinated ultimate dumps, or the random 1's who regularly fight coordinated groups of good players and can hold their own against them for a reasonable amount of time..?

Lol so you see where I was going with this Biro, they are fakers haha

MalagenR

Soris wrote: »

OP, it's an unwritten moral code of pvp like chivalry; thou shalt not Xv1 soloers and thou shalt not stick your head into someone else's business who art behind the enemy lines.

Good players (and i dont mean skill) will always respect eachother and avoid fighting in an unfair situation as much as possible.
Most of the solo roamers and small scalers from different factions who played the game for an extended time, usually know eachother and they usually show friendly attitude towards eachother. Naturally they will team up to fight against the 3rd party.

As you said it is always same in every game and it was always like this in ESO too for years. And this is so normal imo.
You sounded a bit salty in your post about all that ego boosting nonsense so i wanted to give my take.

This is not in ALL games, it's a development in games that have PVP but don't have a real point to PVP'ing. I'm honestly not salty haha I wish you could portray tone through written word but it's just difficult. I was just wanted to make sure these people who think are they being chivalrous are actually just fakers and any crew from Lineage2 or EVE Online - PVP games with actual stakes attached to death - would utterly embarrass them. Their opinion about where I'm coming from means less than nothing, there are few players on the forums who have even come close to doing what I've done in MMO's as a guild leader, etc.

See Biro's post for an exact understanding of what I see occur in ESO that does not exist in PVP games with real death penalties. This whole "White Knight" Chivalry excuse is just as fake as the SJW society we are in today. The fact is, when they are out PVP'ing with their group, they want to gank zergs and not fight hard players cause they just want to maximize their AP gain and get good video clips.

When we played, we played to utterly dominate, there was no question about who was the best, we were the best because we proved it everyday by actually accomplishing *** outside of making videos haha

MalagenR

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

MalagenR

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

MalagenR

eliisra wrote: »

To be fair, you can't expect people to roam around, specifically looking for only "good" players to fight and avoid the rest. You'd spend half the day just riding around, not getting any fun or doing something constructive in terms of objectives.

But it's true that some PvP'ing no-lifers that runs solo&small groups avoid attacking each other. Mainly because all of them is 24/7 in Cyrodill and they know each other. They have this code or gentleman's agreement, where they only attack each other if numbers are reasonably equal or fair.

I can see how that's provoking, if you're being slaughtered and there's people from your own faction just watching and not helping(because the guy killing you is their buddy). It's a d-bag move imo, but for them, respect and loyalty with other solo or small scale PvP'ers is more important than faction pride. So there's that.

I don't want them to avoid crushing noobies. I want them to fight everyone if they think they are the best, even their friends when they are out numbered.

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

AyelineESO

MalagenR wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

You say you play solo and in the same sentence you say you help the 10 noobs kill 2 or 3 people. You know that not being in a group but running with pugs =/= solo, right?

VaranisArano

MalagenR wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil in particular is designed for a huge variety of PVPers.

You've got gankers, bombers, 1vXers, solo players, duelists, organized small groups, PUG raids, organized raids, zerg-surfers, and zergs. You've got people who just want "good fights", people who want AP, people who play for objectives, and people who play with an eye towards the 30 day campaign win. For this reason, I look more at whether someone is "good" at their chosen role in Cyrodiil.



But aside from that, if you want to bring back the days of PVP Guild Domination, ZOS has to fix the lag and persistent performance issues in Cyrodiil.

Right now, when the guilds/organized raids play objectives to dominate the campaigns, the servers simply can't handle large scale combat and respond with lag that's crippling for many players.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but after 15 years I have yet to meet a single MMO that can handle large scale PVP well.

EVE Online had ridiculous 30 second delay for 1000 vs 1000 fleet fights.

Lineage2 had constant game crashes to desktop and 5 minute crippling lag freezes in which you still needed to press your aim assist attack buttons because your computer was still sending packets, so even though you couldn't see yourself playing, you were, and needed to if you want to win. Same with EVE.

Aion we would have 400 v 400 fights and while the lag could be minimized it came at a serious drop in graphical performance, you played at the lowest setting possible and would still freeze / dead or end up with a crash to desktop.

Thus, you either haven't played lots of MMO PVP games, or you haven't yet recognized your ask is incredibly hard to fulfill. If you can't find a way to work around this, large scale PVP and organized PVP at scale is not your cup of tea.

I should add - you can choose to look at it like that - but at the end of the day if you give me any of my squads from Lineage2 (COV Archer Parties) or EVE Online (HAC snipers) we would decimate the field 24/7 with minimal effort. I'm only speaking from experience, so while it may sound cocky there isn't much I can say except that most of the PVP'ers who claim to be good in this game are actually trash.

Also, you have to take what I say with a grain of salt, most of the people I used to game with dropped it long ago, and while I'm complaining about the drop in skill level and lack of incentives driving player skill down, it's almost made the game casual enough so that I can pick it up and still be very competitive even though I barely play. It's a give and take. Mostly what bugs me are the crazy ego's I see teenagers developing in MMO communities these days. Like, when I was 15 yrs old playing Lineage2, it didn't matter to me that I could absolutely annihilate my 20 year old guild leader in a 1v1, I respected the fact that this guy was able to bring 100 people together under one alliance that could hold off 400 people. You just don't see that type of respect anymore for guild leaders, and you don't really see quality guilds anymore or guild leaders, because the incentives have been destroyed.

Perhaps I'm assuming here, but when I'm talking PVP Guild Domination, I'm talking the organized guild raids that dominate Cyrodiil's battlefields.

(I'm not interested in comparing other MMO games, just ESO, since that's the game we're both playing.)

Organized raids run by PVP guilds do dominate Cyrodiil, still. That organization and teamwork you seem to want to see, do pay off handsomely.

At least, when the game works. Lag and performance issues do a number on teamwork, you see? When half the team disconnects or can't use their skills, there's a problem.

Its not merely that the incentives are gone - the incentives are pretty much the same as they always were in ESO. Its that years of bad performance in Cyrodiil have sapped a lot of the PVP guilds, along with burn out for a number of guildmasters and raid leads.

Most of the PVP players and raid leads I know really, really enjoy Cyrodiil gameplay and love PVP - that's a pretty powerful incentive. What they dont enjoy are the things that increasingly get in the way - the bugs, the lag, the performance problems that seem to get worse every update and rarely improve.

So again, if you want Cyrodiil to return to the glory days (such as they were) of the organized PVP guild raids, ZOS has to fix the performance issues. Otherwise, it wont matter what incentives there are because the main incentive - playing and having fun in the game - is gone.

I love how you totally brushed off my point that your ask is incredibly difficult to achieve and no gaming company has ever achieved it, yet some of the PVP games I listed are still going much stronger than the ESO PVP community even though they are older than 5 years.

Wasn't trying to brush off your point.

Thing is, ZOS has managed to do better in the past. When I started playing with my PVP guild, performance wasn't this bad. We had less bugs. Instead, now, I see the same (fixed) bugs recurring in new updates plus new ones.

But yes, tell me is super difficult for ZOS to make it so that we can fight over dethroning an emperor and capturi

AyelineESO wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

You say you play solo and in the same sentence you say you help the 10 noobs kill 2 or 3 people. You know that not being in a group but running with pugs =/= solo, right?

Wait, you mean I'm not a solo player when I zerg surf ungrouped?

*mind blown*

MalagenR

AyelineESO wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

You say you play solo and in the same sentence you say you help the 10 noobs kill 2 or 3 people. You know that not being in a group but running with pugs =/= solo, right?

I'm not in the alliance with them, I'm not in a group with them, and I'm running solo. Not sure what else you want from me bud. When I catch people in the field 1v1, I'm solo, when I'm on my way to enemy keeps and I run across a zerg getting crushed by tower farmers, I help the zerg, but I'm still solo lol, those people aren't taking instructions from me, we aren't coordinating focus fire, etc. etc.

Derra

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

Derra

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Rohamad_Ali

Who's best at this video game ranks up with celebrity dating news on this ones important meter . Never cared .

AyelineESO

MalagenR wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

You say you play solo and in the same sentence you say you help the 10 noobs kill 2 or 3 people. You know that not being in a group but running with pugs =/= solo, right?

I'm not in the alliance with them, I'm not in a group with them, and I'm running solo. Not sure what else you want from me bud. When I catch people in the field 1v1, I'm solo, when I'm on my way to enemy keeps and I run across a zerg getting crushed by tower farmers, I help the zerg, but I'm still solo lol, those people aren't taking instructions from me, we aren't coordinating focus fire, etc. etc.

adverb & adjective

1 done by one person alone; unaccompanied.

I agree that your first example (1vs1) is something that is generally considered as being 'solo'. You are fighting alone/without anyone of your faction after all. The rest is debatable or plain not being 'solo' imo. 'being solo' in PvP in a game means being away from the rest of your faction and creating an action that only involves you and your enemies in my book.

What you are describing is zergsurfing and that has absolutely nothing to do with solo PvP.

p00tx

You should probably branch out a bit and talk to more players. It sounds like you're basing a lot of this on a very limited sampling of people, because the larger population does not fit your generalization. Many of us are faction die-hards who refuse to flip faction "for the lulz" or just to be on the winning (read: zerging) team. We play in tight, organized groups and build our characters to be able to carefully synergize with one another. We all run end game PvE content together when we're not in Cyrodil or BGs so we can have access to the best, most competitive gear. We train our new members to be self-sufficient as well as how to be an effective member of a coordinated team. We're highly competitive, but not to the point of ruining the game for ourselves or interfering with our already very full lives because that's a much healthier way to live.

I get that you're pining for the "good old days", but you kinda sound like the old men who sit around and talk about having to walk to school uphill in the snow, both ways, and that "kids these days" are weak, and lily-livered, and have no work ethic. Quit being such a curmudgeon and just relax and have fun.

DisgracefulMind

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

MalagenR

AyelineESO wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

AyelineESO wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

So basically small scale pvp players are really actually not good at pvp and you prove this to them by getting 10+ friends to go zerg them down. Ok.

I'm not the one who recruits 10+ people, I run solo in Cyro. I just likek supporting the 10+ noobs who are getting potato stomped by 2-3 players cause they are just noobs.

You say you play solo and in the same sentence you say you help the 10 noobs kill 2 or 3 people. You know that not being in a group but running with pugs =/= solo, right?

I'm not in the alliance with them, I'm not in a group with them, and I'm running solo. Not sure what else you want from me bud. When I catch people in the field 1v1, I'm solo, when I'm on my way to enemy keeps and I run across a zerg getting crushed by tower farmers, I help the zerg, but I'm still solo lol, those people aren't taking instructions from me, we aren't coordinating focus fire, etc. etc.

adverb & adjective

1 done by one person alone; unaccompanied.

I agree that your first example (1vs1) is something that is generally considered as being 'solo'. You are fighting alone/without anyone of your faction after all. The rest is debatable or plain not being 'solo' imo. 'being solo' in PvP in a game means being away from the rest of your faction and creating an action that only involves you and your enemies in my book.

What you are describing is zergsurfing and that has absolutely nothing to do with solo PvP.

I called it zerg surfing in my original post I believe. I get what you're trying to do. Like I said, I don't care. If those 10 people can tower farm as much as they want until I arrive on the scene and then they die when I get there I'm happy to call it solo'ing and be the guy on their death recaps with a fat negate

MalagenR

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Yeah, I guess I enjoy realism. I want it to be a simulated battlefield. If you want honorable 1v1's and group fights why not just play street fighter or some smash bro's?

MalagenR

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

It's just on going conversation while I work I'm spouting stuff off in-between getting *** done at the office and keep it going, not trying to address points in a bulleted list. Just generalizing and conversing.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect non-laggy performance - WAR absolutely did have performance issues, all of the best games can never fit large numbers of players on the screen without significant drops in performance..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

It's an online video game and you're wearing a color that says, "AP Pinata here" - so I go and pop that Pinata. I don't care if you're my friend outside of the battlfield, you're in a 1v1, whatever, you're getting popped.

I think part of this might be the difference between cultures on PC / PS4. The idea of people being "small scale" vs. "large scale" to me is hilarious.

So let me make sure I understand how all the white knights view this:

I'm not grouped in Cyro when Iog in - I port to Fare and run up to Aless, along the way I kill a guy who was trying to meet up with his boys tower farming at Fare mine.

^I'm solo here

I get up to Alessia, cap a resource, and 6 people come out of red Aless to zerg me down - I escape all the way back to Fare mine, tower group is still farming, 6 dudes I dragged with me from Aless get wiped by bigger zerg. I still haven't grouped up with anyone, I help the zerg kill the tower farmers.

^I'm solo here or nah?

DisgracefulMind

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

It's just on going conversation while I work I'm spouting stuff off in-between getting *** done at the office and keep it going, not trying to address points in a bulleted list. Just generalizing and conversing.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect non-laggy performance - WAR absolutely did have performance issues, all of the best games can never fit large numbers of players on the screen without significant drops in performance..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

It's an online video game and you're wearing a color that says, "AP Pinata here" - so I go and pop that Pinata. I don't care if you're my friend outside of the battlfield, you're in a 1v1, whatever, you're getting popped.

I think part of this might be the difference between cultures on PC / PS4. The idea of people being "small scale" vs. "large scale" to me is hilarious.

So let me make sure I understand how all the white knights view this:

I'm not grouped in Cyro when Iog in - I port to Fare and run up to Aless, along the way I kill a guy who was trying to meet up with his boys tower farming at Fare mine.

^I'm solo here

I get up to Alessia, cap a resource, and 6 people come out of red Aless to zerg me down - I escape all the way back to Fare mine, tower group is still farming, 6 dudes I dragged with me from Aless get wiped by bigger zerg. I still haven't grouped up with anyone, I help the zerg kill the tower farmers.

^I'm solo here or nah?

Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience. While I keep my friend count low, I don't see any point in ruining anyone's outnumbered fights by adding to them. You might not care about that sort of thing, and that's fine, I'm just expressing that I think you're wrong for expecting people to be faction loyalists and not have a mutual respect for other players going out looking for the same sort of smaller scale fights.

I'm not a white-knight, I wouldn't know what being one is, I just think it's fine to have sportsmanship, even in a video game.

I think your example is fine, by the way. We've all been chased by a zerg and pulled it into another one, I'm sure. Though 6 people isn't really a zerg, tbh.

To each their own with playstyle, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to ruin a solo/duo just because you have a misconception on all people who choose to not dedicate to the faction zerg all the time.

EDIT: Just a note, but I play large scale twice a week as well, I see both sides of it. I just prefer the smaller scale pvp, honestly. And I guess no one can be mad about people who feel the way you do, they're the ones bringing the numbers. It balances out.

MalagenR

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

It's just on going conversation while I work I'm spouting stuff off in-between getting *** done at the office and keep it going, not trying to address points in a bulleted list. Just generalizing and conversing.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect non-laggy performance - WAR absolutely did have performance issues, all of the best games can never fit large numbers of players on the screen without significant drops in performance..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

It's an online video game and you're wearing a color that says, "AP Pinata here" - so I go and pop that Pinata. I don't care if you're my friend outside of the battlfield, you're in a 1v1, whatever, you're getting popped.

I think part of this might be the difference between cultures on PC / PS4. The idea of people being "small scale" vs. "large scale" to me is hilarious.

So let me make sure I understand how all the white knights view this:

I'm not grouped in Cyro when Iog in - I port to Fare and run up to Aless, along the way I kill a guy who was trying to meet up with his boys tower farming at Fare mine.

^I'm solo here

I get up to Alessia, cap a resource, and 6 people come out of red Aless to zerg me down - I escape all the way back to Fare mine, tower group is still farming, 6 dudes I dragged with me from Aless get wiped by bigger zerg. I still haven't grouped up with anyone, I help the zerg kill the tower farmers.

^I'm solo here or nah?

Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience. While I keep my friend count low, I don't see any point in ruining anyone's outnumbered fights by adding to them. You might not care about that sort of thing, and that's fine, I'm just expressing that I think you're wrong for expecting people to be faction loyalists and not have a mutual respect for other players going out looking for the same sort of smaller scale fights.

I'm not a white-knight, I wouldn't know what being one is, I just think it's fine to have sportsmanship, even in a video game.

I think your example is fine, by the way. We've all been chased by a zerg and pulled it into another one, I'm sure. Though 6 people isn't really a zerg, tbh.

To each their own with playstyle, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to ruin a solo/duo just because you have a misconception on all people who choose to not dedicate to the faction zerg all the time.

EDIT: Just a note, but I play large scale twice a week as well, I see both sides of it. I just prefer the smaller scale pvp, honestly. And I guess no one can be mad about people who feel the way you do, they're the ones bringing the numbers. It balances out.

6v1 is definitely zerging. A zerg is defined as anything that is equal to or more than 3v1. The term is derived from the fact that it takes 3 zerglings to kill 1 protoss zealot.

You basically confirmed my point in regards to my thinking, see quote:
"Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience."

^My original point was that these people are unwilling to just take "L's" and move on. If you killing them ruins their PVP experience, they are incapable of taking deaths as just part of the game.

MalagenR

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

Hochstapler

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

So, who has fun in the present game play of vets farming noobs while vets on same faction with the noobs sit and watch them being crushed . demoralized and possibly quit PVP for good?
Is that healthy PVP or is it a *** joke of a "PVP" and those experienced vets are fakers. like OP says?