Hindemith - Memoriies and Malagen. Who'd you play with on Sieghardt? I know that Zunnie / DarkFuneral and Frankee played there for a minute.
There was a dude from Sieg that played Aion too. The clan name is what I remember, it started with a "C" - Catastrophic or something like that?
People these days don't remember the types of guilds we used to have. Like Divine, spanning 10 different games all power houses in each game.
thankyourat wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »A couple reason why I as a solo player will ignore other solo players. the first is because we are generally the best players in ESO and fights between us can get very intense and lengthy. There is no reason to engage in that 1v1 in open world because it will probably be interrupted or will result in one of us getting zerged down. Next I'm not going to Xv1 another solo player because I know how hard playing solo can be at times they don't need me adding to the difficulty of an already difficult 1vX.
The reasons I ignore coordinated groups big or small is because I don't want to die lol. Regardless of what people believe coordination and numbers will always triumph over skill in this game. Some small groups will try to Zerg me down some will not
I think that's exactly the point OP is making.
You're not engaging in fights against another solo player, not against coordinated small scale groups nor large groups.. so what do you go after? You go after the low hanging fruit and proclaim things like "we are generally the best players in ESO".
It's not that you do it (go after said chosen targets) that's the issue, it's the hypocrisy of doing it and then thinking you're the king of the hill.
That's not true though. ESO doesn't have a environment where solo players can fight each other.
Not to be a contrary butthole (and I know you're legit. Just ran into you yesterday), but isn't that what dueling is for?
thankyourat wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »A couple reason why I as a solo player will ignore other solo players. the first is because we are generally the best players in ESO and fights between us can get very intense and lengthy. There is no reason to engage in that 1v1 in open world because it will probably be interrupted or will result in one of us getting zerged down. Next I'm not going to Xv1 another solo player because I know how hard playing solo can be at times they don't need me adding to the difficulty of an already difficult 1vX.
The reasons I ignore coordinated groups big or small is because I don't want to die lol. Regardless of what people believe coordination and numbers will always triumph over skill in this game. Some small groups will try to Zerg me down some will not
I think that's exactly the point OP is making.
You're not engaging in fights against another solo player, not against coordinated small scale groups nor large groups.. so what do you go after? You go after the low hanging fruit and proclaim things like "we are generally the best players in ESO".
It's not that you do it (go after said chosen targets) that's the issue, it's the hypocrisy of doing it and then thinking you're the king of the hill.
That's not true though. ESO doesn't have a environment where solo players can fight each other. If I got on my horse and road from arrius to roebeck I'm not about to die cause I got zerged down while trying to 1v1 another solo player. I fight these players all the time if I see them in PvE. I also fight coordinated groups all the time if I catch them without their whole group. If it's only 3 or 4 players I'll take that fight. But if those players are with their full 15 man group why would I try to fight them and get zerged down with all the Earthgore and root spam.
I'm also not going against low hanging fruit I don't even attack low levels. I go after Zergs of uncoordinated people. I enjoy outnumbered fights. It's easy to ignore solo players I only see about 3 or 4 a day. You also hardly ever see elite small scale groups. So In reality I'm fighting almost everyone I see. The only players I'm guaranteed to see on a consistent basis is ball groups and I will always ignore them.
Hochstapler wrote: »Just that my personal approach is logically sound within the frame of an elder scrolls game.
Is it really?
Do you keep your 'code of honor' when you enter a battleground as well?
If a friend of yours is on the other team you don't participate in the match?
And if so, is this a logicaly sound gameplay for you?
Hochstapler wrote: »To me, your reasonings don't hold water and this 'code of honor' thing sounds more like a lame excuss for not participating in the main activity the zone was created for.
And I agree with OP that the real reasons behind it is fear of 'dieing' in a video game, fragile egos etc.
On top of that, you are being selfish and incosiderate of your fellow faction players who fully participate in the main activity the zone was created for.
We attempt to fight all those other guilds as it’s far more enjoyable than day in and out of pug farming.
Although this game really lacks any ranked leaderboard which could potentially increase a competitive drive and give meaning to guilds (rivalry)
Crowfall or ashes maybe? Eventually
Your guild has been around since Alpha? So you're probably one of the last of your kind yeah?
Joy_Division wrote: »This sounds like a "back in my day, we had to..." post.
For every person that I usually avoid fighting and they do likewise - which by the way is mostly motivated by not waiting to partake in Xv1ing, not because we're afraid of losing - there are at least three who would like nothing better to do than fanatically chase you across the map. Play long enough and you'll *** off a lot more people than you'll make friends. And for every multi-faction friend you make, you've got 4 or 5 die-hard loyalists who'll still drop a meteor of you in a 10v1 because they take thing personally and think you're a traitor.
I guess you're having a slow weekend and felt being provocative.
Haha you and Tbo get it. You’ve made the best argument thus far. Pure loneliness.
But look I’ll tell you what’s revealing, Aryus said he didn’t include that clip in his videos cause he doesn’t want to embarrass them. Are their egos so fragile he can’t share an awesome video with the community.
I think he’s wrong, people do want to see that. Plus it has much more worth watching in it.
Who were the two people they fought ?
I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
It really doesn't matter what you all feel is the intended gameplay, honorable, farming, zerg surfing or whatever style of gameplay you do or don't approve of. They are free to play the way they want and will continue to do so.
mayasunrising wrote: »I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
[Standing Ovation]
Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.
mayasunrising wrote: »I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
[Standing Ovation]
Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.
Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.
mayasunrising wrote: »I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
[Standing Ovation]
Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.
Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.
No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?
Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.
Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.
It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.
Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).
And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.
mayasunrising wrote: »I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
[Standing Ovation]
Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.
Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.
No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?
Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.
Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.
It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.
Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).
And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.
Thank god my wallet did and I can afford more nifty gadgets to partially compensate for the slower reaction times.
But I’m only 32, so it isn’t too bad for me yet
mayasunrising wrote: »I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:
Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.
Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.
In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.
The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.
This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.
The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.
ESO - Current Day
In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.
The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.
Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.
The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.
They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.
i.e.
Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.
I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -
If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.
Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns
- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.
[Standing Ovation]
Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.
Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.
No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?
Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.
Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.
It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.
Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).
And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.
Thank god my wallet did and I can afford more nifty gadgets to partially compensate for the slower reaction times.
But I’m only 32, so it isn’t too bad for me yet
Haha we are the same age.
ESO has it very easy compared to past games. Target healing is just one example where the healer had to have good reaction and skill. ESO equivalent is just push a button.
Does that make the game easy to pick up? Yes it does. Does that make the game easy to play? No. Both sides have the same set of rules, so even though it may feel easy to deal or prevent damage, it is the same on both sides. Thus, it comes down to other factors such as builds, group composition, terrain, numbers etc, to determine the outcome. Players and groups still have highly challenging gameplay (and not necessarily with even numbers).
The difficulty in ESO has a decent ceiling. If you think you know it all, have a closer look. How you play, what you use, positioning, long term strategy etc, all of these have very high ceilings. No one is perfect.
Just because the game is easy to pick up doesn't mean that it's 'dumbed down'. The total number of variables and combinations of these to optimise your gameplay is a lot more than people give it credit.
It’s what you learn after you 'know it all' that counts.
ESO has always been a simpler game in terms of available mechanics due to a limitation of skill slots, three resource pool system, and the continued efforts to make the game accessible to more people (which can be a good or bad thing, depending on who you are/your argument).
That being said, there is still a skill level required to perform at varying levels within this game like any other game/MMO. Whether this skill gap is larger or smaller compared to other games is mostly subjective and dependent upon various factors (how do you measure skill? is it knowledge of mechanics, or how your opponent will react/how you will react, or dexterity? etc.).
However, it is hilarious to see people compare this game to others and declare summarily that people playing this game would get destroyed by those from other games, citing unfounded evidence such as:
- game X I played had more serious consequences to death so people were better at the game
- game Y involved tons of grinding to get best gear, and obviously more time in game == more skill
- game Z had different mechanics to respond to which were much more difficult
Seriously? Player skill is tied to being "tough" from losing your items? You must no-life to be a top PvPer? Being able to react to a 60 second unbreakable stun or managing 60 skills (when in reality you probably only used 10-20 regularly) is more tactical than being able to know when to dodge a knockback?
I guess this is a nostalgia thread in disguise, but man... Some of us also came from those old games, look back without rose-tinted glasses and see that both types of games had/have players of varying levels of competition.
Also: lol at the random sidetrack that women are ruining gaming. To answer your original question there: no, I don't see how the "influx" of women have changed guild politics. I still see the primary source of drama being egotistical individuals who have disregard for others, just like the days of the good ol' boys guilds.