Good PVP'ers vs. Bad PVP'ers

Aerrimus

MalagenR wrote: »

Aerrimus wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

Just curious what was your Lineage 2 server and char name?

I was on Sieghardt. Warsmith named Balin.

Hindemith - Memoriies and Malagen. Who'd you play with on Sieghardt? I know that Zunnie / DarkFuneral and Frankee played there for a minute.

There was a dude from Sieg that played Aion too. The clan name is what I remember, it started with a "C" - Catastrophic or something like that?

People these days don't remember the types of guilds we used to have. Like Divine, spanning 10 different games all power houses in each game.

I remember the name DarkFuneral and Frankee. I was in First and a couple of us went to Aion too. I mainly played with Amer in both games.

I'll never forget dying and exploding like a gear piñata. Most people here couldn't handle the grind..

thankyourat

p00tx wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

A couple reason why I as a solo player will ignore other solo players. the first is because we are generally the best players in ESO and fights between us can get very intense and lengthy. There is no reason to engage in that 1v1 in open world because it will probably be interrupted or will result in one of us getting zerged down. Next I'm not going to Xv1 another solo player because I know how hard playing solo can be at times they don't need me adding to the difficulty of an already difficult 1vX.

The reasons I ignore coordinated groups big or small is because I don't want to die lol. Regardless of what people believe coordination and numbers will always triumph over skill in this game. Some small groups will try to Zerg me down some will not

I think that's exactly the point OP is making.
You're not engaging in fights against another solo player, not against coordinated small scale groups nor large groups.. so what do you go after? You go after the low hanging fruit and proclaim things like "we are generally the best players in ESO".
It's not that you do it (go after said chosen targets) that's the issue, it's the hypocrisy of doing it and then thinking you're the king of the hill.

That's not true though. ESO doesn't have a environment where solo players can fight each other.

Not to be a contrary butthole (and I know you're legit. Just ran into you yesterday), but isn't that what dueling is for?

Yes that's what dueling is for. I was referring more to open world 1v1's in cyrodiil. on average they are pointless and will get constantly interrupted. My opinion is it's not very smart to try to have a duel in cyrodiil. I find it even worse when players get upset their duel is interrupted. This is why players see solo players not fighting each other. The only way to have a decent 1v1 is to log out of cyrodiil and duel.

Thoragaal

thankyourat wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

A couple reason why I as a solo player will ignore other solo players. the first is because we are generally the best players in ESO and fights between us can get very intense and lengthy. There is no reason to engage in that 1v1 in open world because it will probably be interrupted or will result in one of us getting zerged down. Next I'm not going to Xv1 another solo player because I know how hard playing solo can be at times they don't need me adding to the difficulty of an already difficult 1vX.

The reasons I ignore coordinated groups big or small is because I don't want to die lol. Regardless of what people believe coordination and numbers will always triumph over skill in this game. Some small groups will try to Zerg me down some will not

I think that's exactly the point OP is making.
You're not engaging in fights against another solo player, not against coordinated small scale groups nor large groups.. so what do you go after? You go after the low hanging fruit and proclaim things like "we are generally the best players in ESO".
It's not that you do it (go after said chosen targets) that's the issue, it's the hypocrisy of doing it and then thinking you're the king of the hill.

That's not true though. ESO doesn't have a environment where solo players can fight each other. If I got on my horse and road from arrius to roebeck I'm not about to die cause I got zerged down while trying to 1v1 another solo player. I fight these players all the time if I see them in PvE. I also fight coordinated groups all the time if I catch them without their whole group. If it's only 3 or 4 players I'll take that fight. But if those players are with their full 15 man group why would I try to fight them and get zerged down with all the Earthgore and root spam.

I'm also not going against low hanging fruit I don't even attack low levels. I go after Zergs of uncoordinated people. I enjoy outnumbered fights. It's easy to ignore solo players I only see about 3 or 4 a day. You also hardly ever see elite small scale groups. So In reality I'm fighting almost everyone I see. The only players I'm guaranteed to see on a consistent basis is ball groups and I will always ignore them.

You are completely missing the point.
You are built for taking care of yourself and yourself alone. Nobody is arguing about why you're doing it.
The argument is that you believe "we are generally the best players in ESO" because you engage with people built for large scale combat.
For example: my MagDen is 100% built for buffing/debuffing/support, you should be ashamed of yourself if you couldn't kill me. My Templar is built for healing a bombgroup, without Any abilities to even deal damage, once again you should feel ashamed of yourself if you can't kill it. But the one character I have made for small scale/solo play is the character you'd also "I ignore coordinated groups big or small" because you don't want to die or because "can get very intense and lengthy".
The one character that's built for the enviornment is also the one you ignore!

You engage with people that's not built for the enviornment, that doesn't make you "the best player in ESO". Just like if a coordinated zerg/bombgroup/small scale run you down it doesn't make those players the "best group in ESO". Even if you had as many players as that coordinated group, said group should be built towards group play, with abilities/skills/cp that benefits the group far more than your chosen gear/skills/cp ever could.

heng14rwb17_ESO

KILL ALL SPARE NONE

Derra

Hochstapler wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Just that my personal approach is logically sound within the frame of an elder scrolls game.

Is it really?
Do you keep your 'code of honor' when you enter a battleground as well?
If a friend of yours is on the other team you don't participate in the match?
And if so, is this a logicaly sound gameplay for you?

No - because the situations i do not participate in can´t occur in BGs.
Also most player actions are relevant for the end result in BGs.

If you had understood what i have written - you might have found that answer yourself.

Hochstapler wrote: »

To me, your reasonings don't hold water and this 'code of honor' thing sounds more like a lame excuss for not participating in the main activity the zone was created for.
And I agree with OP that the real reasons behind it is fear of 'dieing' in a video game, fragile egos etc.
On top of that, you are being selfish and incosiderate of your fellow faction players who fully participate in the main activity the zone was created for.

The thing is - if it´s around a keep i generally don´t give a damn. If i want to take a keep or defend one i´m helping everyone and i´m attacking everyone. Same with scrolls.

If i see 10 players chasing down 1 or 2 enemies into the middle of nowhere without any purpose apart from trying to kill these players - that´s something i won´t participate in (1v1, 2v1 whatever it´s all the same to me). If they fail and get slaughtered all the better. Maybe they´ll learn something from it and become better fighters because dying means nothing.

Also who is more afraid of dying and hurt egos - the person that dares to go out alone and fight what comes at them - or the corward who thinks chasing a single enemy with 8 of his friends trying to eliminate the possibility of losing entirely. For me it´s the latter. For my character and for my roleplaying it´s the same.

It´s funny that you say i´m inconsiderate of my fellow faction players - while at the same time talking about the main purpose of the zone (though i disagree with you on what that would be but that´s irrelevant for my further argument).
If it´s truely the purpose of the zone to win the campaign and take keeps and scrolls - chasing down players that generally do nothing with keeps and scrolls serves no purpose in this regard.
This would mean that it´s not only inconsiderate of fellow players (because enemies are also fellow players) - it´s deliberately ignoring the alledged main purpose of the zone you´re in to maliciously destroy the fun another player is trying to have.
While inaction and silence can be wrong - i think actively participating is always worse.

Atleast we can agree in our wish for friendly fire. I´d gladly help people that get outnumbered by my faction to even the odds.

Irylia

MalagenR wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

We attempt to fight all those other guilds as it’s far more enjoyable than day in and out of pug farming.

Although this game really lacks any ranked leaderboard which could potentially increase a competitive drive and give meaning to guilds (rivalry)

Crowfall or ashes maybe? Eventually

Your guild has been around since Alpha? So you're probably one of the last of your kind yeah?

Most of us started around thieves/dbh and joined as a guild during homestead

Irylia

MalagenR wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This sounds like a "back in my day, we had to..." post.

For every person that I usually avoid fighting and they do likewise - which by the way is mostly motivated by not waiting to partake in Xv1ing, not because we're afraid of losing - there are at least three who would like nothing better to do than fanatically chase you across the map. Play long enough and you'll *** off a lot more people than you'll make friends. And for every multi-faction friend you make, you've got 4 or 5 die-hard loyalists who'll still drop a meteor of you in a 10v1 because they take thing personally and think you're a traitor.

I guess you're having a slow weekend and felt being provocative.

Haha you and Tbo get it. You’ve made the best argument thus far. Pure loneliness.

But look I’ll tell you what’s revealing, Aryus said he didn’t include that clip in his videos cause he doesn’t want to embarrass them. Are their egos so fragile he can’t share an awesome video with the community.

I think he’s wrong, people do want to see that. Plus it has much more worth watching in it.

Who were the two people they fought ?

CyrusArya

Irylia wrote: »

Who were the two people they fought ?

It was two EP named Tyr and Xirxz, solid players.They aggrod and they also put up a good fight. Just some random open world 2v2 we had the day before I made that post.

Just wanted to demonstrate that skilled players do fight each other all the time, be that in instanced organized settings or open world. Just cus it doesn’t make highlight reels doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. How would zerg surfers know anyways?

The logic from the op is largely inconsistent, misinformed, and has been debunked thoroughly throughout this post. @Derra’s last post is a nice final nail in the coffin. Time to let this thread die.

mayasunrising

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Sacredx

Sanctum74 wrote: »

It really doesn't matter what you all feel is the intended gameplay, honorable, farming, zerg surfing or whatever style of gameplay you do or don't approve of. They are free to play the way they want and will continue to do so.

This pretty much sums it up. Each player has their own perspective on what is an acceptable method of playing the game.

If I understand correctly the OP's purpose of the thread is:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP.

The facts are simple and clear. You play the game the way you want to within the rules of the game. Lineage 2 has rules "A" and ESO has rules "B". A player is 100% entitled to play within those rules however they want to.

This thread has frankly failed to understand the most fundamental of rules.

Telel

Telel finds there are two kinds of good players in ESO. At least during the times this one chooses to play in.

The first would be the kind who talks about how great he is from the comfort of the opposition's zone chat. They do this through a most rousing form of banter known as 'toxic AD zone chatitus'. Apparently once one gets 'to good' you lose the ability to actually leave a keep without an escort of the people you're better than....

But don't worry. As soon as certain groups purposely lag out the server they'll be back on their main 'finding good fights'.

Then there's the other type.

This second type are the ones who don't have time to tell you how great they are. Usually because they're busy leading one of the two groups (at best) a backfooted faction has to go up against the kind of people who'll soon go back to proclaiming their greatness in zone chat.

Which is why you'll never hear about any actually good players in ESO. Or even the mediocre ones. At least not during the times this one humbly plays in.

Curtdogg47

A good PVPer

Helps there side.
Lays down siege
Doesn't let any enemy players escape.
Helps fellow faction members who are getting attached.

A bad PVPer
1. Comes to PVP to PVE and then complains about getting killed.

Purdomination33

The other day I scrolled through my guild lists. So many people who I recognized as good and serious PvP'ers hadn't signed on for months if not years. Made me kind of sad. I get oddly sentimental when I see once popular zones look empty.
I am sure most have simply moved on to the next game.

I am the very first one to admit I am not one of those guys who is just naturally good at video games, far far from it. However, as things stand today if there was a way to measure overall 'effectiveness' in Cyrodiil and BG's I feel like I would be somewhere in top 15% (as long as 'time spent' did not count). Almost like that would be due to attrition of people leaving more than me being good.

The other day I felt like a badass after dominating several Battleground matches in a row. Couldn't help but wonder how much was attributed to the fact I understand what gear to use, stats to key on and utilize gold level gear/weapons vs how much would be considered just skillful play.

The new crop of players is much smaller and does not feel...I dunno, mature I guess. Like the adult gamers moved on. Too often PvP has an icky troll-like vibe. Every time I enter Cyrodiil it's one faction dominating the whole map simply because they outnumber the other 2 factions combined by an order of magnitude. Even when it's my faction dominating (been a while AD-NA Xbox) the game play is basically throwing rocks and spears at walls, standing on a flag, ride horse....rinse repeat. Days of large scale conflicts coexisting with pockets of small scale fighting are over I am sad to say.

One of these days Cyrodiil might need to be reworked to adapt to the smaller population. No really my area of expertise so who knows.

Purdomination33

"[/quote] @Derra

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.[/quote]"

@Derra - I agree with you here. Pure numbers outweighs skill by a long shot and I feel that gap continues to widen. Right/wrong I dunno. Some very good players can give a decent sized group the runaround for a long time but generally they are not doing damage in return. In a CP enabled zone, the length of time it takes to kill just one person is prohibitive. There are obviously exceptions but majority of the time a small well coordinated group has little hope of wiping out the larger. They might live longer than most but only real chance is that someone gets off a perfectly bomb + group ulti dump against unprepared players.

MalagenR

mayasunrising wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.

Thogard

MalagenR wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.

No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?

Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.

Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.

It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.

Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

Ghostbane

tl;dr - Shiver Cat best PvPer NA.

Minno

Thogard wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.

No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?

Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.

Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.

It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.

Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

I tried to go back to WoW like last year, and found it stupid easy to do things in PVP.
Then again I had a disc priest and was tankier than DK at launch but I could press 1 mouse button and still have 3-4 skills fire off at once lol.

ESO is a special MMO that is unfairly stacked against other MMOs containing terribly inflated nostalgia. You come to appreciate what it brings to the table, sans proc sets lol.

NBrookus

Thogard wrote: »

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

There's also the fact that their hands are 30 years older. Unlike wine, your reflexes don't get better with age.

Thogard

NBrookus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

There's also the fact that their hands are 30 years older. Unlike wine, your reflexes don't get better with age.

Thank god my wallet did and I can afford more nifty gadgets to partially compensate for the slower reaction times.

But I’m only 32, so it isn’t too bad for me yet

MalagenR

Thogard wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.

No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?

Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.

Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.

It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.

Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

Sorry, I should have been more clear - difficult in regards to there being a penalty for death. I agree with everything you just said otherwise. I cut my teeth playing WoW arena to hit gladiator on Laughing Skull pre BC and ran a ridiculous group in Aion and a ridiculous Legion tbh so I could see how an old school player that doesn't have the same experience playing those types of reaction and timing skill games wouldn't be able to play ESO PVP successfully. Developing stupid fast reaction times was necessary in those games to play at a high level, especially when you have almost 4 skill bars 12 skills long and need to pay attention to a multitude of timers.

So I am a bit biased in that I stare at ESO PVP and I'm like.. ehh.... it's not that hard to get good. But if I was making the transition from something like Lineage2 to ESO I'm sure I'd be awful.

MalagenR

Thogard wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

There's also the fact that their hands are 30 years older. Unlike wine, your reflexes don't get better with age.

Thank god my wallet did and I can afford more nifty gadgets to partially compensate for the slower reaction times.

But I’m only 32, so it isn’t too bad for me yet

Haha we are the same age.

MaximillianDiE

Thogard wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I've noticed something that has been a plague on PVP games in the last 15 years that I've been playing them that I think is utterly hysterical, as follows:

Many of the players of today that believe they are great PVP'ers do not actually fight the best opponents in open world PVP. This is common in not just ESO, but in games like WoW, EVE Online, Aion, etc. Essentially, what occurs, is a similar form of what we used to use clans / guilds for back in the day. I'll use a comparison of my 1st experience in a PVP game, with Lineage2 vs. my current experience in MMO's through the lens of ESO.

Lineage 2 - 15 Years ago.

In this game, gear grinding was insane, to have a B grade weapon (weapons scaled to S) you basically had to have been playing for almost 2+ years, at level 55+ grinding out 10% XP in a day required about a 12 hour investment, when you got to level 65+ it was basically 12 hours to make around 5%.

The penalty of death was 2-3% XP, and if you died in PVP and it wasn't a clan war and you were near level cap you were basically losing the last 12 hours of your XP grinding every time you died. Also, if you ganked someone who didn't want to fight, you received Karma which needed to be worked off slaying monsters, your name was red and you had a significant risk of dropping your gear if someone killed you while you had karma. Dropping something like a weapon would set you back at least a year.

This is what guilds were built and predicated on. You wanted to maximize individual gain and minimize losses by surrounding yourself with quality players and working as a team to accomplish very difficult goals. This encouraged teamwork between the best players, setting aside of ego, and created a natural hierarchy in the game in which the best players formed an alliance, managed the castles they won, and made it possible for the people who were playing in the zones they owned the castles of an opportunity to make significant in game currency (very rare) if the alliance managed the seeding process properly.

The best players were also the best PVP'ers. You needed to defend your grinding area's (TOI - Tower of *** I forgot the name) grinding angels was a hotly contested spot, and many times when we were at war with another clan we would fight over the opportunity to grind experience in these area's for hours on end. The best players were constantly fighting the best players for the best grinding spots.

ESO - Current Day

In this game, gear grinding is very easy. Some of the best gear is easily crafted and the stat bonuses from gold jewelry / gear is very minimal, you can be a very competent player in epic purple attire. Grinding XP is so easy that we have over 810 champion point levels. You can play casually and still be very competitive.

The penalty for death is almost totally non-existent. You don't need to repair your gear, the only thing you suffer is a respawn and having to run back to the fight. You will never lose something you worked for.

Guilds are now built and predicated on their ability to do specific things well (Trials) or are primarily social gathering places, with no hierarchy of who the best players are, and very little reason to set aside ego or differences to accomplish a greater goal, because no greater goal actually exists. I should note, this isn't the case for trading guilds, the last bastion of what a real guild should be based on, which many players in the forums want to ruin because they don't like the idea of paying dues. Old players have no incentive to teach new players how to learn how to play, because overall difficulty isn't that hard, finding enough players to do the content is fairly easy, even if you have drama with 90% of your server. Only the highest level achievements in the game now require teamwork.

The best PVE'ers and best PVP'ers are separated for the most part, though more often than not you find that the best PVP'ers are also very good at PVE as they have a serious working knowledge of the class and its limitations/best skills/best stat / gear allocation, etc. But, these so called PVP'ers that we find in ESO, don't actually fight each other, more often than not. Many of them have multiple characters across multiple factions, and rather than put themselves into a guild where they would need to control their ego, they separate into dueling circles or small guilds that don't fight each other in open world, and most have no idea how to play as a team.

They talk on the forums like they want "serious PVP" - they groan for balance - they complain about lack of challenge - yet they purposely limit the challenges to themselves as players (other good players) by boosting their ego ganking scrubs while totally ignoring the players who give them a challenge in Cyro.

i.e.

Majority of people on the forums are fake. I think this reflects our society today as well. Most of the people talking to you are liars today, with no interest in challenging themselves, constantly seeking the easy way out, massaging their ego's, and running from or refusing to challenge themselves due to a fear of having their ego crushed. They have no idea how to take their "L"'s and instead will focus on how a class is op, it was a 1vX, a mob hit them once, etc.

I know this comes off as a "Back in my day" and it's true, games are way more accessible today than they used to be because of a lot of the things mentioned above, and that's a good thing, but I'll say this -

If you think you're good at PvP but all you do is run around Cyro 1vX'ing scrubs and fighting the occasional duel against good players, while your group avoids fighting those good players because they are your "friends" - you're not good. Gone are the days when guilds had purpose, men and women set aside ego's to accomplish complete server domination for their guild, and good players treated each other with respect on virtual battlefields.

Enjoy the rest of your day you tea bagging clowns

- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears.

[Standing Ovation]

Lineage II was freaking awful, but to be honest, it was nothing compared to Ultima Online. These "leet" pvp'ers that spend their time running circles in towers, or ambushing newblets in ESO would have been trash in UO. And if you were one of these dillholes who feels the need to flame players, guilds, or factions constantly, your life would have been a living hell. Grief players were hunted down 24/7 and eventually would wind up running around in nothing but their newbie gear because they had been killed and dry looted so many times. Players like [name removed] would not have been tolerated. It was players policing players. There were repercussions to your actions as a player, and it was freaking brilliant.

Yea, lots of people missed the point but some of you got it. The ones who don't get it I guarantee weren't around until MMO's started to follow WOW format. Pre-WoW games were just extremely difficult.

No they weren’t. Are you kidding me?

Go back and watch gameplay footage from pre-wow MMOs. Everything is slow af. Macroing was allowed / widespread. Botting OK too.

Group strategy and group cohesion were far more important in pre-wow games (and even wow) then in the new age games because back then being a little bit faster with the mouse or clicker didn’t really mean anything. The benefit for marginally better micro play was negligible at best compared to ESO. Macro play (positioning, group strategy, role selection, etc) was therefore far more important.

It’s important in eso too. It’s just that most of the people who played with good group strats 15 years ago in mmo PvP just don’t have good micro in ESO, or they were driven away before they could get to that part of the game. I know I was, initially, although eventually I came back and tried again.

Half my PvP guild thinks I made up the expression “prekite” because it’s a top tier PvP guild and the PvP vets from other MMOs usually aren’t able to “get good”. Instead it’s the young guys with FPS backgrounds who maybe played Skyrim... they’re many of the top PvPers! Then those people have to learn MMO PvP / GvG strats as they go, but there are far fewer mmo vets to teach them than in other MMOs because those mmo vets with the strong strategy backgrounds are getting 3 shot because they can’t react fast enough to push the block button in time (also we’re old lol).

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

You are kidding right? The real reason there are sod all mmo vets left in ESO is because most left years ago so all you're left with is a bunch of kids who think they're the first to do everything because they have no mmo experience to measure it against.

DAOC had cc that could last up to a minute with 9 second unbreakable stuns and long ranged interrupts and nearsights. Fights often came down to who could get off the first Nearsight/CC/Interrupt which was totally reaction based. I first experienced the term prekiting came from DAOC pvp almost two decades ago now. Warhammer had pulls and kiting a plenty as well as ridiculous stackable burst (Word Of Pain anyone?). Heals had to be targeted and not fire and forget like ESO. CC and interrupts are nothing in ESO compared to those two games alone, and reaction timing was key to pulling those off before your opponent did. Plenty of top pvp guilds came into this game at launch that had history stretching back to DAOC and before who were extremely successful in this game in the first year or so before the lighting patch, lag and broken stuff meant the bulk of the top old school pvp'ers left. The guild I came into this game with all up and left in early 2015. ESO pvp is actually incredibly dumbed down and much more forgiving compared to the games it wholesale copied (DAOC, WAR etc).

Warpig6Delta

How do I leave Cyrodiil?

WaltherCarraway

Warpig6Delta wrote: »

How do I leave Cyrodiil?

Try resetting your router

Sacredx

ESO has it very easy compared to past games. Target healing is just one example where the healer had to have good reaction and skill. ESO equivalent is just push a button.

Does that make the game easy to pick up? Yes it does. Does that make the game easy to play? No. Both sides have the same set of rules, so even though it may feel easy to deal or prevent damage, it is the same on both sides. Thus, it comes down to other factors such as builds, group composition, terrain, numbers etc, to determine the outcome. Players and groups still have highly challenging gameplay (and not necessarily with even numbers).

The difficulty in ESO has a decent ceiling. If you think you know it all, have a closer look. How you play, what you use, positioning, long term strategy etc, all of these have very high ceilings. No one is perfect.

Just because the game is easy to pick up doesn't mean that it's 'dumbed down'. The total number of variables and combinations of these to optimise your gameplay is a lot more than people give it credit.

It’s what you learn after you 'know it all' that counts.

Minno

MalagenR wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And you know why they can’t react fast enough? Because in MMOs 15 years ago you didn’t have to.

There's also the fact that their hands are 30 years older. Unlike wine, your reflexes don't get better with age.

Thank god my wallet did and I can afford more nifty gadgets to partially compensate for the slower reaction times.

But I’m only 32, so it isn’t too bad for me yet

Haha we are the same age.

This is a 1986 rep thread now.

Best year of the 80's; Aliens/Top Gun came out in theaters, Chernobl exploded, and the first PC virus called "Brain" hit computers.

MalagenR

Sacredx wrote: »

ESO has it very easy compared to past games. Target healing is just one example where the healer had to have good reaction and skill. ESO equivalent is just push a button.

Does that make the game easy to pick up? Yes it does. Does that make the game easy to play? No. Both sides have the same set of rules, so even though it may feel easy to deal or prevent damage, it is the same on both sides. Thus, it comes down to other factors such as builds, group composition, terrain, numbers etc, to determine the outcome. Players and groups still have highly challenging gameplay (and not necessarily with even numbers).

The difficulty in ESO has a decent ceiling. If you think you know it all, have a closer look. How you play, what you use, positioning, long term strategy etc, all of these have very high ceilings. No one is perfect.

Just because the game is easy to pick up doesn't mean that it's 'dumbed down'. The total number of variables and combinations of these to optimise your gameplay is a lot more than people give it credit.

It’s what you learn after you 'know it all' that counts.

No, there aren't a lot of variations of kill combinations, which is exactly why we are saying it's simple and mechanical and not that difficult.

As a MagSorc in PVP you have 1 kill rotation.

As a MagNB in PVP you have 1 kill rotation

As a Magden in PVP you have 1 kill rotation

List goes on and on and on, the rotations are predictable, and the skill of PVP in this game is determined by your ability to quickly recognize the build/strategy your opponent is using and create an opening in which they make a mistake. Simultaneously, the margin of error you're provided as a player due to self healing, means that fights are incredibly long and boring. Survivability is so high in the game that you're allowed to make multiple mistakes before you get killed, and because of this, it's very easy to determine which classes are over performing.

For example, NB ability to reset the fight at will is over performing, cloak is completely broken.

For example, Block DK's being able to consistently heal to full and burst down a 20k hp opponent with Leap is broken, considering the combination of mitigation (impossible for an opponent to pressure you when you're on defense) and insane amount of burst on offensive rotation.

^Same applies to Templar right now also - now it could be that I think these things are over performing because really my class is underperforming, and this is probably what the real problem is, Sorc damage has been nerfed so hard and our burst rotation is so telegraphed every player that's any good knows exactly how to counter it meaning that fights are 10-15 minutes long.

I'm not really sure Warden is overperforming like a lot of people say. I think that in a group setting it is ridiculously powerful but most wardens I find open world we fight to a draw if I streak through their ice ***.

Glory

ESO has always been a simpler game in terms of available mechanics due to a limitation of skill slots, three resource pool system, and the continued efforts to make the game accessible to more people (which can be a good or bad thing, depending on who you are/your argument).

That being said, there is still a skill level required to perform at varying levels within this game like any other game/MMO. Whether this skill gap is larger or smaller compared to other games is mostly subjective and dependent upon various factors (how do you measure skill? is it knowledge of mechanics, or how your opponent will react/how you will react, or dexterity? etc.).

However, it is hilarious to see people compare this game to others and declare summarily that people playing this game would get destroyed by those from other games, citing unfounded evidence such as:

1. game X I played had more serious consequences to death so people were better at the game
2. game Y involved tons of grinding to get best gear, and obviously more time in game == more skill
3. game Z had different mechanics to respond to which were much more difficult

Seriously? Player skill is tied to being "tough" from losing your items? You must no-life to be a top PvPer? Being able to react to a 60 second unbreakable stun or managing 60 skills (when in reality you probably only used 10-20 regularly) is more tactical than being able to know when to dodge a knockback?

I guess this is a nostalgia thread in disguise, but man... Some of us also came from those old games, look back without rose-tinted glasses and see that both types of games had/have players of varying levels of competition.


Also: lol at the random sidetrack that women are ruining gaming. To answer your original question there: no, I don't see how the "influx" of women have changed guild politics. I still see the primary source of drama being egotistical individuals who have disregard for others, just like the days of the good ol' boys guilds.

MalagenR

Glory wrote: »

ESO has always been a simpler game in terms of available mechanics due to a limitation of skill slots, three resource pool system, and the continued efforts to make the game accessible to more people (which can be a good or bad thing, depending on who you are/your argument).

That being said, there is still a skill level required to perform at varying levels within this game like any other game/MMO. Whether this skill gap is larger or smaller compared to other games is mostly subjective and dependent upon various factors (how do you measure skill? is it knowledge of mechanics, or how your opponent will react/how you will react, or dexterity? etc.).

However, it is hilarious to see people compare this game to others and declare summarily that people playing this game would get destroyed by those from other games, citing unfounded evidence such as:

1. game X I played had more serious consequences to death so people were better at the game
2. game Y involved tons of grinding to get best gear, and obviously more time in game == more skill
3. game Z had different mechanics to respond to which were much more difficult

Seriously? Player skill is tied to being "tough" from losing your items? You must no-life to be a top PvPer? Being able to react to a 60 second unbreakable stun or managing 60 skills (when in reality you probably only used 10-20 regularly) is more tactical than being able to know when to dodge a knockback?

I guess this is a nostalgia thread in disguise, but man... Some of us also came from those old games, look back without rose-tinted glasses and see that both types of games had/have players of varying levels of competition.


Also: lol at the random sidetrack that women are ruining gaming. To answer your original question there: no, I don't see how the "influx" of women have changed guild politics. I still see the primary source of drama being egotistical individuals who have disregard for others, just like the days of the good ol' boys guilds.

A hundred percent disagree that a death penalty doesn't result in an increase in skill. Competition with results oriented goals and severe consequences of failure have always been the catalyst to the greatest accomplishments of mankind.

You're basically ignoring evolutionary biology and hierarchies and their impact on human beings.

Second. Most it's most no-lifers that are the best PVP'ers or have you missed that in all your history of gaming?

Third. Reaction time is definitely a measure of skill in player vs. player based video games, regardless of what you think.

Fourth. More difficult game mechanics will increase your keyboard / controller reaction speed and dexterity, which we note earlier is a definitive measurement of player skill, there is a significant correlation between the best PVP'ers also having the best reaction time, and is one of the reasons auto fire controllers are banned from gaming competitions. So yes, experience with more difficult mechanics will make you more skilled.

You honestly come off like you've just never had any skill at a game or been good at a game.

Fifth. Had another experience with guild drama centered around an ego-maniacal male ditching his friends to shower his e-gf with attention due to her severe jealousy. So I guess one thing I wasn't considering is that it isn't just a female problem, it's also men with low self confidence who no-life video games problem. At the same time, you didn't respond at all to my fact that you don't see male streamers taking off their clothes to earn money from video game streamers. THAT IS A FACT, WHETHER YOU WANT TO AVOID IT OR NOT. DEAL WITH IT.