Hochstapler wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

So, who has fun in the present game play of vets farming noobs while vets on same faction with the noobs sit and watch them being crushed . demoralized and possibly quit PVP for good?
Is that healthy PVP or is it a *** joke of a "PVP" and those experienced vets are fakers. like OP says?

LOL GOT EM.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

It's just on going conversation while I work I'm spouting stuff off in-between getting *** done at the office and keep it going, not trying to address points in a bulleted list. Just generalizing and conversing.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect non-laggy performance - WAR absolutely did have performance issues, all of the best games can never fit large numbers of players on the screen without significant drops in performance..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

It's an online video game and you're wearing a color that says, "AP Pinata here" - so I go and pop that Pinata. I don't care if you're my friend outside of the battlfield, you're in a 1v1, whatever, you're getting popped.

I think part of this might be the difference between cultures on PC / PS4. The idea of people being "small scale" vs. "large scale" to me is hilarious.

So let me make sure I understand how all the white knights view this:

I'm not grouped in Cyro when Iog in - I port to Fare and run up to Aless, along the way I kill a guy who was trying to meet up with his boys tower farming at Fare mine.

^I'm solo here

I get up to Alessia, cap a resource, and 6 people come out of red Aless to zerg me down - I escape all the way back to Fare mine, tower group is still farming, 6 dudes I dragged with me from Aless get wiped by bigger zerg. I still haven't grouped up with anyone, I help the zerg kill the tower farmers.

^I'm solo here or nah?

Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience. While I keep my friend count low, I don't see any point in ruining anyone's outnumbered fights by adding to them. You might not care about that sort of thing, and that's fine, I'm just expressing that I think you're wrong for expecting people to be faction loyalists and not have a mutual respect for other players going out looking for the same sort of smaller scale fights.

I'm not a white-knight, I wouldn't know what being one is, I just think it's fine to have sportsmanship, even in a video game.

I think your example is fine, by the way. We've all been chased by a zerg and pulled it into another one, I'm sure. Though 6 people isn't really a zerg, tbh.

To each their own with playstyle, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to ruin a solo/duo just because you have a misconception on all people who choose to not dedicate to the faction zerg all the time.

EDIT: Just a note, but I play large scale twice a week as well, I see both sides of it. I just prefer the smaller scale pvp, honestly. And I guess no one can be mad about people who feel the way you do, they're the ones bringing the numbers. It balances out.

6v1 is definitely zerging. A zerg is defined as anything that is equal to or more than 3v1. The term is derived from the fact that it takes 3 zerglings to kill 1 protoss zealot.

You basically confirmed my point in regards to my thinking, see quote:
"Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience."

^My original point was that these people are unwilling to just take "L's" and move on. If you killing them ruins their PVP experience, they are incapable of taking deaths as just part of the game.

You're wrong, though. It's not about taking losses, I duel my friends all the time, no one cares who wins or loses, it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered. Plenty of times we've put together 2v2's and 3v3's. There's more to PvP than caring about faction loyalty and outnumbering other people. I don't see why it's a big deal that some people, like myself, don't want to be a complete jerk. Even if this is a game, there still needs to be a level of sportsmanship involved, in my opinion.

I understand, also, where the terminology comes from, but, in the case of ESO, I'd say 6 people isn't "zerging you tf down". That's a good outnumbered fight (:

Beating up 6 *** isn't fun for me. If I'm one of the 6 chasing you, you're dying every time, it's not going to be a "good fight". I want to add, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. I was just making the point that potato smashing isn't something to be proud of, and as the poster above me pointed out, all your doing is making the game fun for you and your friends, when you tower camp for AP you're making the zerglings very unhappy, so which is it, you want people to have a non-toxic experience according to your standards?

I think if we look at the game in terms of - What did the developers of the game, who build the sandbox we play in, intend?

I don't think they intended on 6 noob EP kids fighting 2 AD while 3 other EP sit off to the side and watch the noob EP's get rolled.

MalagenR wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I love what you're saying here and appreciate you joining the discussion about our community rather than just trashing me! I see your point, but I disagree on this line -

"If i duo there´s hardly any point to fight solo players - even if they´re the best of the server.
If i run a 4man there is no point fighting duos of really competent player - nor is there fighting a competent 6-man group.
The way combat is setup in eso just makes the outcome of these fights predetermined if we´d assume equal skill of all participants"

In the duo example, it's a great time to apply really strong pressure to the solo player and really find out what they are about. Can they escape your duo? If they can escape your duo or manage to kill one of you and escape, that's a damn good player, and the chase wll be fun.

In the 4v2 combination, I just wholeheartedly disagree. I think there is enough random factors involved in a 4v2, unless the 4 man group has 2 healers, that the 2 people should be able to potentially drop one of you or escape. Again, the escape and chase are part of the fun of open world PVP.

I don't think they are pre-determined, as really good ultimate timing can change the pace of a fight almost instantly. I mean combat in Aion was much more advanced than in ESO and I have libraries of 2v4 2v3 2v2 2v5 - etc.

I can only speak for me and the history of my guild (that´s been inactive for about a year now).

Escaping is only an option if you have the classes to do so - so that´s only part of the battle for some classes (nb/sorc). So this isn´t really an option when arguing imo. A templar, warden or DK will not escape a coordinated group aside from running into a keep.

As for the actual fights: While i think what you state is true for lets say the upper 40% of the players. As soon as you´re approaching the top of these 40% it´s no longer true.
We´ve played with people who had 10+ years of experience in organised and structured group vs group mmo combat. I haven´t had a fight in eso where we´d be threatened when outnumbering the opposition. Literally never.

Once you approach a high enough level having one let alone two player advantage becomes more important if the numbers are small enough.
From my personal experience these fights are predetermined. They´re not if you´re fighting opponents that are not on your level of buttonpressing and group coordination - but that´s not what i was arguing around.

It's two different experiences coming from two different types of gameplay modes. The real crux of the issue here is that my view on PVP and whose best is based on what they actually do in a game where there are penalties for dying.

The view of most people in ESO is that being good means counting the number of zergy noobs you can crush. I just find it laughable.

"Let's prove I'm the best by beating the worst!"

Which is why I love to zerg surf and help the noobs when they come up against these groups.

How does that in any way adress what i wrote? Like i can´t see the connection.

It's just on going conversation while I work I'm spouting stuff off in-between getting *** done at the office and keep it going, not trying to address points in a bulleted list. Just generalizing and conversing.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect non-laggy performance - WAR absolutely did have performance issues, all of the best games can never fit large numbers of players on the screen without significant drops in performance..

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As someone who small-scales a lot, especially in a duo, I have to say I disagree with you saying that people like me avoid fights. That's not true, I try to get into as many fights as possible with experienced players. No, I won't fight my friends unless we all agree to it. I think that's fine though, everyone has friends, I'm not just going to be friends with EP players.

But I think you're mistaken in saying that small scalers avoid fights. Generally we're not going to jump in on someone who is already fighting outnumbered, because it's respectful to not be an ass. I think that if other small scale players have found a good fight against a group of EP, who am I to interrupt that. I know I'd be annoyed, why would I do that to someone else.A lot of patience, getting zerged, riding back to a spot far off from your faction goes into small scale.

I understand not everyone likes to play this way, or even can, and I respect that, which is why it's so weird to me how larger scale players don't respect small scale players at all.

It's an online video game and you're wearing a color that says, "AP Pinata here" - so I go and pop that Pinata. I don't care if you're my friend outside of the battlfield, you're in a 1v1, whatever, you're getting popped.

I think part of this might be the difference between cultures on PC / PS4. The idea of people being "small scale" vs. "large scale" to me is hilarious.

So let me make sure I understand how all the white knights view this:

I'm not grouped in Cyro when Iog in - I port to Fare and run up to Aless, along the way I kill a guy who was trying to meet up with his boys tower farming at Fare mine.

^I'm solo here

I get up to Alessia, cap a resource, and 6 people come out of red Aless to zerg me down - I escape all the way back to Fare mine, tower group is still farming, 6 dudes I dragged with me from Aless get wiped by bigger zerg. I still haven't grouped up with anyone, I help the zerg kill the tower farmers.

^I'm solo here or nah?

Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience. While I keep my friend count low, I don't see any point in ruining anyone's outnumbered fights by adding to them. You might not care about that sort of thing, and that's fine, I'm just expressing that I think you're wrong for expecting people to be faction loyalists and not have a mutual respect for other players going out looking for the same sort of smaller scale fights.

I'm not a white-knight, I wouldn't know what being one is, I just think it's fine to have sportsmanship, even in a video game.

I think your example is fine, by the way. We've all been chased by a zerg and pulled it into another one, I'm sure. Though 6 people isn't really a zerg, tbh.

To each their own with playstyle, I just don't see the point in going out of your way to ruin a solo/duo just because you have a misconception on all people who choose to not dedicate to the faction zerg all the time.

EDIT: Just a note, but I play large scale twice a week as well, I see both sides of it. I just prefer the smaller scale pvp, honestly. And I guess no one can be mad about people who feel the way you do, they're the ones bringing the numbers. It balances out.

6v1 is definitely zerging. A zerg is defined as anything that is equal to or more than 3v1. The term is derived from the fact that it takes 3 zerglings to kill 1 protoss zealot.

You basically confirmed my point in regards to my thinking, see quote:
"Well, in my case, I'm not going to fight someone I've been friends with close to 4 years now and ruin their PvP experience."

^My original point was that these people are unwilling to just take "L's" and move on. If you killing them ruins their PVP experience, they are incapable of taking deaths as just part of the game.

You're wrong, though. It's not about taking losses, I duel my friends all the time, no one cares who wins or loses, it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered. Plenty of times we've put together 2v2's and 3v3's. There's more to PvP than caring about faction loyalty and outnumbering other people. I don't see why it's a big deal that some people, like myself, don't want to be a complete jerk. Even if this is a game, there still needs to be a level of sportsmanship involved, in my opinion.

I understand, also, where the terminology comes from, but, in the case of ESO, I'd say 6 people isn't "zerging you tf down". That's a good outnumbered fight (:

Beating up 6 *** isn't fun for me. If I'm one of the 6 chasing you, you're dying every time, it's not going to be a "good fight". I want to add, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. I was just making the point that potato smashing isn't something to be proud of, and as the poster above me pointed out, all your doing is making the game fun for you and your friends, when you tower camp for AP you're making the zerglings very unhappy, so which is it, you want people to have a non-toxic experience according to your standards?

I think if we look at the game in terms of - What did the developers of the game, who build the sandbox we play in, intend?

I don't think they intended on 6 noob EP kids fighting 2 AD while 3 other EP sit off to the side and watch the noob EP's get rolled.

You're right, I'm not all about the "potato smashing" either. As I stated, I spend a lot of time seeking out good, outnumbered fights against more experienced players. And to be honest, most players on PC/NA aren't typical pugs anymore, so maybe your experience is completely different. But a good 2vX is ideal for me (:

I don't really see how small scalers farming people who keep running at them is toxic, though. PvP in ESO, as a whole, allows a lot of these sort of "farms" to happen no matter the group size. There is the really, really easy concept of "just don't come back".

I think it's very, very obvious that longer term players were going to eventually get to know each other. Dueling guilds and such that are cross-faction have been around since the start. Like I said, I think your experience on console is perhaps different.

That being said, nothing is going to make me smack around someone I know and respect if they're already getting ran over by a ton of people. It just sucks, I know from experience.

I think it's fine that some players prefer to zerg surf and play the map and need help against stronger players. I think the fact that ESO has a bit of variety when it comes to small scale vs. large scale is actually what keeps a lot of people hanging on to the game. If you like to run over a solo player with a ton of people and be proud about it, that's fine, it's just a game, but people should remember that we all have different playstyles because we're allowed to in ESO. And, to be so honest, you can call small-scalers toxic, but it's the full-time faction zergers that are the toxic ones in my experience.

Ah well, cheers, and happy zerging (:

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Yeah, I guess I enjoy realism. I want it to be a simulated battlefield. If you want honorable 1v1's and group fights why not just play street fighter or some smash bro's?

Eh? Realism? What?
Have you played DAoC or Warhammer by chance? Those games had great pvp without the need for severe death penalties.

Also you´re making again an argument that´s in no way related to what i said.

Warhammer was shuttered. I played WAR. It was garbage PVP. Que times were *** for the big large scale 40 v 40 fights they wanted, or the 100v100 gate fights or w/e if I remember correctly. The game shuttered in under 2 years. How can you call a game that went down quicker than my mom good?

DAoC lasted a long time, from what I understand, I never played it but I heard it was excellent.

Hochstapler wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

So, who has fun in the present game play of vets farming noobs while vets on same faction with the noobs sit and watch them being crushed . demoralized and possibly quit PVP for good?
Is that healthy PVP or is it a *** joke of a "PVP" and those experienced vets are fakers. like OP says?

Depends entirely on the situation.
There is a rather fine line between only crushing noobs and pushing oneself or ones grp against the odds in fights that can go either way.

For me fights that eliminate the possibility of losing aren´t desireable - from both sides (noobs and "pros").
A four man stomping the same 7 poor souls in a resource tower over and over or 15 people chasing a solo player to narnia and back? Both are different sides of the same coin.

So i agree partly with op. But with other parts i strongly disagree - because i think eso wrongly promotes this unhealthy behavior and partly even rewards it.

Edit: Ofc this is purely from my perspective - and doesn´t account for having a history with players. I´ll murder players that don´t stand a chance without seconds thoughts if i know they´ll zerg me down if they get the opportunity and have done so prior on multiple occasions.

I will reiterate, a lot of conversation in this thread is driven by misconception and lack of perspective on something people clearly have no experience with. Some of these zerg surfers seem to be under the impression that it’s either fight everything or fight “noobs” and thats all small scale necessarily involves: engaging with potatoes. This is definitely not the case, as there is a ton of gradience.

First of all, when you small scale you don’t really get to choose who engages you. Usually small scalers are the defending party against the zerg pugs who are usually the aggressors in the situation. If you chase me or my group, idc who you are, we will try our best to kill you until the fight is resolved one way or the other. But the people we fight range the gamut from actual noobs to very experienced and well geared players. As such, every fight must be assessed and evaluated on its own terms, as no two PvP fights are the same. I have had 1v8s in recent patches that I never used cus they were against mostly potatoes and low cp players. There is no value in that. But on the flip side, outnumbered fights against competent opponents are a very real thing. My most recent Stamplar clips featured more 1000+ cp, geared, and experienced PVP’ers than people under the cp cap. I always make it a point to showcase fights vs worthy opponents that know what they are doing.

So to suggest we only fights “noobs” is a myopic, misninformed, and ignorant view. And again, to anyone who claims outnumbered PvP is so dismissible, please do share your own gameplay so we can see how easy you make it look.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered.

I think this is quite important.
Mostly i care about the quality of a fight. Running someone over does nothing for me - it only gives points i mostly don´t care about anymore.

Do i like to win? Yes. Can i have enjoyment if i lost a fight fair and square that was actually a good fight? Yes (though eso makes this one hard because winning and losing is mostly related to bugs, glitches and bad performance these days).

For me it´s actually somewhat alienating that some people don´t understand me when i write - i just want good fights.

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

NGoHT wrote: »

Some good thoughts here but the OP talks like others talk about their family, kids or professional career.
No offense just an observation.

Take it easy and you will enjoy it more, this community is light years better than most other games'.

I come off like that but I swear to god I'm still very light hearted while I'm gaming. It's just when I get lost in my head on how I've seen the culture shift that it comes out like that on paper.

I mean look at it, it's like one big block of text, because I'm only on these forums while I'm at the office I don't have time to edit and worry about how people will take the message in regards to my tone.

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Now you’re talking about how you think women are ruining video games, this is repulsive.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying in the last 15 years in running guilds and leading raids at a high level I've noticed that lots of guild drama starts with women. This is my experience and I'm asking if other people have it too. I do not think at all that women are ruining video games. There are a ton of females I've gamed with - I mentioned Zunnie / Dark Funeral earlier from Lineage2 who was a female, who were *** epic savages.

I'm trying to manage the discussion to general pop and lowest common denominator.

And in direct argument against the SJW white knight stance you just took - do you see male streamers making money off their looks / body or female streamers doing it? Which sex is taking their clothes off in front of the camera while gaming to make cash?

EDIT - why edit your comment to remove the "this is disgusting" - because it identified you as an SJW so quickly?

I want to be 100% clear, I am not in any way saying that women are ruining video games. That is clearly ban bait he's throwing out there trying to derail the thread.

What's important to me, and at the heart of this thread, is talking about how the community has evolved, in my discussion with the people who have been responding it has come to light that my gripe might be less with "PVP" and more with "communities" and how they've changed. I then mention something in regards to drama that I've witnessed in all high level guilds that I've led and led raids for over the past 15 years and want to know if it's just my personal experience or if it shared.

I think this is a perfectly valid and reasonable request and that nobody should be getting their under garments in a bunch over it.

MalagenR wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Now you’re talking about how you think women are ruining video games, this is repulsive.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying in the last 15 years in running guilds and leading raids at a high level I've noticed that lots of guild drama starts with women. This is my experience and I'm asking if other people have it too. I do not think at all that women are ruining video games. There are a ton of females I've gamed with - I mentioned Zunnie / Dark Funeral earlier from Lineage2 who was a female, who were *** epic savages.

I'm trying to manage the discussion to general pop and lowest common denominator.

And in direct argument against the SJW white knight stance you just took - do you see male streamers making money off their looks / body or female streamers doing it? Which sex is taking their clothes off in front of the camera while gaming to make cash?

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered.

I think this is quite important.
Mostly i care about the quality of a fight. Running someone over does nothing for me - it only gives points i mostly don´t care about anymore.

Do i like to win? Yes. Can i have enjoyment if i lost a fight fair and square that was actually a good fight? Yes (though eso makes this one hard because winning and losing is mostly related to bugs, glitches and bad performance these days).

For me it´s actually somewhat alienating that some people don´t understand me when i write - i just want good fights.

Completely agree with you. It's the quality of the fight. I just don't find the fun or need in running over solo players lol

I was never saying I take great pleasure in zerging down one player. I've always just looked at it like, "sorry guy/gal you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, the game was designed so that if you're red, you're dead."

And then I move on. This doesn't mean that my favorite fights aren't good fights, of course they are, that's why I save the video clips of them, whether they are wins or losses.

MalagenR wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Now you’re talking about how you think women are ruining video games, this is repulsive.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying in the last 15 years in running guilds and leading raids at a high level I've noticed that lots of guild drama starts with women. This is my experience and I'm asking if other people have it too. I do not think at all that women are ruining video games. There are a ton of females I've gamed with - I mentioned Zunnie / Dark Funeral earlier from Lineage2 who was a female, who were *** epic savages.

I'm trying to manage the discussion to general pop and lowest common denominator.

And in direct argument against the SJW white knight stance you just took - do you see male streamers making money off their looks / body or female streamers doing it? Which sex is taking their clothes off in front of the camera while gaming to make cash?

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered.

I think this is quite important.
Mostly i care about the quality of a fight. Running someone over does nothing for me - it only gives points i mostly don´t care about anymore.

Do i like to win? Yes. Can i have enjoyment if i lost a fight fair and square that was actually a good fight? Yes (though eso makes this one hard because winning and losing is mostly related to bugs, glitches and bad performance these days).

For me it´s actually somewhat alienating that some people don´t understand me when i write - i just want good fights.

Completely agree with you. It's the quality of the fight. I just don't find the fun or need in running over solo players lol

I was never saying I take great pleasure in zerging down one player. I've always just looked at it like, "sorry guy/gal you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, the game was designed so that if you're red, you're dead."

And then I move on. This doesn't mean that my favorite fights aren't good fights, of course they are, that's why I save the video clips of them, whether they are wins or losses.

"- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears."

right.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Like I said, it's risk vs. reward and it's my style of gameplay from playing numerous games with actual death penalties.

When we cruise into an area in a game with actual death penalties we sterilize everyone, because the risk of a gank is to great to not make it clear that this area is now ours and everyone should gtfo.

I think this constitutes prettymuch 100% of what i think of as unhealthy pvp - because it actively discourages people from pvping while encouraging griefing other players.
Death should have no penalty apart from in combat rezzes - otherwise the game becomes too niche for limited time players and who´s best is solely determined by the time they can invest at some point.
Ideal pvp for me is fun for both sides of the encounter. If a game system is to rigid or punishing that´s no longer the case.

Oh see Derra here I absolutely disagree. I think that the moments where it becomes real are the best. I ran into some old Lineage2 MAFIA people while I was playing Aion 10 years later and we shared a blunt and talked about years and years of battles and memories we had from back in those days, and I don't think those memories would be as strong in my mind today if they hadn't felt like a real war at the time.

lol griefing, I guess if playing to win the object of the game that the developers have structured for us is griefing then so be it.... I play for keeps!

edit - REAL WAR with a grain of salt, meant no disrespect to people who have actually been in wars

I have the same kind of feelings for daoc and in fact have met people (enemies and long lonst friends) in eso over a shared history in that game.

I don´t think it´s related to particular game mechanics but rather to the general period these games were released in with differend kinds of communities.

That's possible, it could be less that I'm sick of seeing what I see in the games and more that I'm sick of how gamers have become.

I swear when we were just straight up nerds we were much cooler people than the nerds that are streaming today. I think this also comes through in the guild management scenario's.

I mean, be honest on this one, if you've played a lot of PVP games over the past 15 years - have you not noticed what the influx of women has done to guild politics?

^Note, this is a totally separate topic from what we've been discussing but it could be that what I'm really sick of is the way the gaming community has changed as a whole.

I swear to god its softer today, it's based less on performance, and more about who you are friends with, etc.

Now you’re talking about how you think women are ruining video games, this is repulsive.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying in the last 15 years in running guilds and leading raids at a high level I've noticed that lots of guild drama starts with women. This is my experience and I'm asking if other people have it too. I do not think at all that women are ruining video games. There are a ton of females I've gamed with - I mentioned Zunnie / Dark Funeral earlier from Lineage2 who was a female, who were *** epic savages.

I'm trying to manage the discussion to general pop and lowest common denominator.

And in direct argument against the SJW white knight stance you just took - do you see male streamers making money off their looks / body or female streamers doing it? Which sex is taking their clothes off in front of the camera while gaming to make cash?

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

it's about not running someone over when they're already outnumbered.

I think this is quite important.
Mostly i care about the quality of a fight. Running someone over does nothing for me - it only gives points i mostly don´t care about anymore.

Do i like to win? Yes. Can i have enjoyment if i lost a fight fair and square that was actually a good fight? Yes (though eso makes this one hard because winning and losing is mostly related to bugs, glitches and bad performance these days).

For me it´s actually somewhat alienating that some people don´t understand me when i write - i just want good fights.

Completely agree with you. It's the quality of the fight. I just don't find the fun or need in running over solo players lol

I was never saying I take great pleasure in zerging down one player. I've always just looked at it like, "sorry guy/gal you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, the game was designed so that if you're red, you're dead."

And then I move on. This doesn't mean that my favorite fights aren't good fights, of course they are, that's why I save the video clips of them, whether they are wins or losses.

"- Signed: That guy who makes sure the zerg kills your small group instead of allowing you to wipe them and drinks up your QQ zerg tears."

right.

Wait, when did zerging down 1 player become comparable to zerging down a small group? I thought we settled this one already?

I still do take great pleasure in helping the zerg kill the small scale group, because I know the zerg has no chance until I ride up and strategically place my negate or meteor and then go on with my day to the next location while I'm looking for good fights.

I just play if it's red it's dead. Maybe that's the crux, why is playing according to the way the developers built the game such a faux pas?

MalagenR wrote: »

Nobody made the conclusions you're drawing from my statements. Of course some people who put out videos put them out the way you do.

You're ignoring the fact that you are a special case. I think the majority of players who do small scale don't actually behave like you.

Also, I think that the PC culture is significantly different from the PS4 culture. This has been true of all video games that existed on PC / PS4.

The PC players will always be far more skilled in my opinion due to the skill level of the entire population being raised through the requirement of mods by "communities" guilds w/e you want to call them.

Cyrus - I honestly don't think you're just a potato killer - but that doesn't mean that a good majority of your friends might be.

Thank you for at least acknowledging my point of view. I can see where a lot of the frustration might stem from, in seeing people of your own faction be so apathetic towards what you may consider how the game is "meant" to be played. I would just ask that you consider this: maybe certain players feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the format of pvp that they advocate and represent, and so by extension the community that also champions this common style of play- regardless of which color the flag above their head is.

At the end of the day, its just a game, and what people enjoy therein varies. Some like to pursue challenging outnumbered fights. Some enjoy cooperating and collaborating with friends to form highly efficient groups and guilds. Some feel strong loyalty to their faction and wish to see it prosper. Some enjoy the fast paced action of bgs and some are Stormhaven heroes that duel all day. Some enjoy all of the above. To each their own. A lot of the contention among the various styles of play comes from a lack of mutual understanding I believe.

One time I ate a whole chicken.