PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Witar

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I just know that only the top leader-boards will be able to complete vAS+2 and vCR+3. My group does 100k+ score in vAS and I know that we will need at least 10 hours of practice to even clear the thing with the shield cast times as a lot of people will be dead and the group will wipe because of that. You cannot just avoid the one shot mechanics there if not casing a shield. If you have a one second of cast time on the shield while someone near you is targeted with the poison cone you are just going to die. Dodge rolling this mechanic also results in insta-deaths in most cases are usually people need to shield and block walk away from the cone. Also people will not be able to cast a shield while kiting the meteors as it will slow their movement and result in a certain death.

As suggested by other members here there are a lot of better alternatives to nerf shields rather than that horrible cast time:

- increase the cost of consecutive shield casts (the same as how streak functions)
- decrease the the shield strength

There are probably more good alternatives, but adding a cast time will kill the PvE trial environment for new players and progression groups. Basically the only groups that will be affected the least are the ones that can do no-death and speed runs which are only a few. This is a horrible idea and hopefully it gets changed or a lot of us will just stop going to trials (there is no point to struggle as a magicka character, better go with a full stamina group now with bow/bow for ranged setups except if you are part of that 0.0001% of the player-base).

You know that devs can actually take things that you proposing and add them to already existing changes? Cause voices in thier heads told them so.

ezio45

Cronopoly wrote: »

I'm taking the Rocky line on Sorc, If he dies, he dies. We started the game with 4 classes, I'll treat it like it only has 4 if this goes live. I hate eveything about whata is proposed, but I'm done b#$%^ing about it.

Abandoning Sorc seems a plausible option. Playing my Templar and DK PVP, and will see if my Nightblade is enjoyable in Light Armor for PVE. If not I';ll convert her to PVP only as well for BG's.

Thats your choice but I wont abandon my class, if sorc is dead then there is little reason for me to play eso above any other game with my friends

cpuScientist

Okokokokok.

Take dark deal and move it to bound armor. That way Sorcs get a new skill they can use, get to have glowing eyes again and bound armor has a purpose. Then take the extra Stam and mag on bound armor and move it to passives.

THEN take that dark deal slot and give us a slowing dot. And have a Stan morph for it as well.

cpuScientist

The new dark deal is kind of a buff sure. But just still Garbo for PVE. Complete Garbo. Utter Garbo. Make it Instant and let the heal work like rally. Give us 2k immidiately and 4k+ over 20-25 seconds.

BretonMage

SenorCrouch wrote: »

Man this sucks. As the days countdown, the more and more it seems like this shield cast time is going to hit live. Talk about depressing.

I’m definitely depressed about this. I can’t play petsorc anymore if this goes live. Cast time to shield; pet dies; cast time to resummon; rinse and repeat; die a lot.

jluchau

I'll ad my voice to others. I don't like some of these changes. The shield cast time is the hardest to deal with as it takes away my ability to protect myself in a way that feels like I'm reacting to whats going on. If I can't use shields to protect myself as a magsorc then I'll need something else and this will most likely cause me to no play as a magsorc anymore. I understand allowing crits, but I don't understand the cast time. It would be like adding a cast time to people trying to block with a traditionally equipped shield. I understand trying to find balance, I don't understand this.

Aldul

arasysb14_ESO wrote: »

Anyone heard anything from class reps about shields? They had a meeting today, I hope their silence doesn't mean ZOS will ignore players' feedback again.

I'm really afraid. I want to continue playing BUT there is no way some of us, including me, will stay in the game at all with this. I bet, they have heard it a lot (and they might have ignored it a lot), but it's legit feedback. Just a pity.

Thats your choice but I wont abandon my class, if sorc is dead then there is little reason for me to play eso above any other game with my friends

My Money won't continue to go to sub either, after 4 years +, I can tell you that, ZOS. DONT BREAK THE BALANCE LIKE THAT

Vahrokh

One of my trial guilds sorc class leader has contacted me to say that if the 1s "poop-motion" shield nerf goes live, he will switch to his templar (he has already done so) and I'll have to switch to another class too (stamsorc not allowed).

Thank you ZOS, for ruining my trials career in the guild I've done most of my progressions achievements!

P.S. I have 5 PvE sorcs. Five. And 1 magblade with 10h playtime and purple gear, which also got the nerf this patch. A magblade I don't like to play. That's it. Now please tell me why I should keep playing ESO.

Sange13

Vahrokh wrote: »

One of my trial guilds sorc class leader has contacted me to say that if the 1s "poop-motion" shield nerf goes live, he will switch to his templar (he has already done so) and I'll have to switch to another class too (stamsorc not allowed).

Thank you ZOS, for ruining my trials career in the guild I've done most of my progressions achievements!

P.S. I have 5 PvE sorcs. Five. And 1 magblade with 10h playtime and purple gear, which also got the nerf this patch. A magblade I don't like to play. That's it. Now please tell me why I should keep playing ESO.

This is the danger of having a "main." I do too (Templar), but if this happened to mine, I have 4 other characters at cap. I'd just have to grind out their SPs and some of their skill lines. Other that that, I'd be okay, albeit extremely unhappy about having to do that.

Derra

The main problem with the changes to shields is IMO the thought that something as a purely "proactive" defense can exist in esos fast paced combat environment for both pvp and pve without creating massive problems along with it (that are subjectively way worse than the problems shields currently pose on live).

It couldn´t be further from reality.
Looking at a pvp scenario from now on:
On live the only situation where a shield works as a proactive defense mechanism is applying them before the fight started. After this point shields (or rather refreshing them) become a reactive defense mechanism just like every heal in the game.
A sorcerer shield build on the current live server effectively replaces their HPbar with their shield bar in combat - with refreshing shields being the equivalent to healing (with the pros and cons that shields currently have). *2

Why is the goal of having shields work as a proactive defense problematic?
Let´s imagine a situation where we have a working proactive defense in form of shields - what could constitute such a mechanic as vaible?
Pretty much the mandatory working condition would be to allow it to absorb the average incoming dmg of atleast one competent player, while at the same time creating an offensive window + allowing enough time to refresh the mechanic (combined with other means of dmg mitigation - but since block doesn't work on shields and dodge is a stamina based defense those are somewhat neglible reserverd for emergencies). Why? Because all reactive defenses and the mixed bags (like hots) allow you to do just that.
What would be a reasonable shieldvalue to be looking at to meet that criteria?
If we assume an incoming 4.5k dps from one enemy player (which isn´t really on the high end of the spectrum considering they´re most likely hitting light armor with ~15 to 20k resistances max that they can also crit now *1) a shield would have to withstand that for lets say ~ 2.5s offensive window + another 1.5s to reapply the shield (this assumes 2 barswaps + 2 offensive spells cast with weaved LA + 1s casttime for the shield and 0.2s animation after hardcast). This would mean you´d need atleast 18k SINGLE shield (4.5k dps against 4s timeframe) on application for that defensemechanic to become even remotely vaible.
Why do i say remotely vaible here? Because this theoretical scenario does not account for any form of spike dmg be it burst abilities, a string of lucky crits, ultimates or proccs.

So with the conservative approach of having a (still very vulnerable) 18k shield on application. Can anyone see why this would be problematic?
Probably because this would be balancing the shield on the assumption that the player using it intends to be offensive after application.
Can you imagine what it would result in when someone only refreshes (maybe multiple layers of) their proactive defense? It would be a nightmare and broken (basically an a lot worse version of the current live problems when stacking shields).

The problem with the current iteration on the PTS is: The proactive defense simply does not account for or allow any form of offensive windows - and still gets broken down and the player being in a position where they can only defend gets killed without the chance to ever become offensive in the first place.
That´s broken aswell. A defense that doesn´t allow for any sort of offensive play in return is pointless and may aswell not exist.


@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RobGarrett

*1 as a point of reference: currently on my magicaDK or magicaNB i will average between 5 and 6k dps against shielding sorcerers - without being able to crit them while being in a position where any light armor resistances get 100% pierced.
The offensive window + shieldstrengh discussed for the post is really an immensely conservative estimation and would most likely need to be higher.

*2 This is also why i think shields are perceived as such a big problem - the games base UI layers the shield in a barely visible texture over the actual HP without showing shieldstrengh or %.
Simply implementing a seperate shieldbar into the base UI would solve some of the perceived issues with shields.

Chilly-McFreeze

Faint_One wrote: »

Not a good change with dark deal
whatever high resource it recover，it still waste time and low our dps

Well, until they reject the cast time entirely it will never be useful for pve dd.
But at least for PvP I can live with the current change. Although a shorter cast time/ return time would still be nice.

Vahrokh

Sange13 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One of my trial guilds sorc class leader has contacted me to say that if the 1s "poop-motion" shield nerf goes live, he will switch to his templar (he has already done so) and I'll have to switch to another class too (stamsorc not allowed).

Thank you ZOS, for ruining my trials career in the guild I've done most of my progressions achievements!

P.S. I have 5 PvE sorcs. Five. And 1 magblade with 10h playtime and purple gear, which also got the nerf this patch. A magblade I don't like to play. That's it. Now please tell me why I should keep playing ESO.

This is the danger of having a "main." I do too (Templar), but if this happened to mine, I have 4 other characters at cap. I'd just have to grind out their SPs and some of their skill lines. Other that that, I'd be okay, albeit extremely unhappy about having to do that.

Well, I have a "main" because:

- It's the class I play in all MMOs since before 2000.
- It's the class I like. In WoW I could switch to Warlock and in GW2 I could switch to Necro. What "mage" / "summoneer" flavoured class is here in ESO? Magblades are just "rogues gone ranged" not a class that inspires me.
- Undaunted, achievements, mage guilds etc. are all "alt-hostile" mechanics. I have most hard mode vet trials on my main sorc, you don't randomly stumble upon hm vMOL guilds who take your undergeared alt to repeat it!

Thraben

Vahrokh wrote: »

Well, I have a "main" because:

- It's the class I play in all MMOs since before 2000.
- It's the class I like. In WoW I could switch to Warlock and in GW2 I could switch to Necro. What "mage" / "summoneer" flavoured class is here in ESO? Magblades are just "rogues gone ranged" not a class that inspires me.

Same here. I defeated Dagoth Ur back then by summoning an army of deadra, and I loved it.

I was still angry that StamSorcs couldn´t use conjured weapons (as they are supposed to), but I could live with how my PetSorc performed.

The Devs are not only killing the fun for those who don´t care about the rest, but they are killing the class identity for those who care.

And maybe even worse, they incite parts of the community (Mag- and StamSorcs) to think that another part of the community (the main Nightblades) are backing these changes, turning players against players.

ku5h

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Ipslor

ku5h wrote: »

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Never gonna happen. Grind it all over again or persist in the doomed world ZOS have created.

Sange13

Ipslor wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Never gonna happen. Grind it all over again or persist in the doomed world ZOS have created.

Who knew a 1s cast time could be so destructive?!

cpuScientist

Sange13 wrote: »

Ipslor wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Never gonna happen. Grind it all over again or persist in the doomed world ZOS have created.

Who knew a 1s cast time could be so destructive?!

I think it's more the straw the broke the camel's back kind of thing

Kolache

Sange13 wrote: »

Ipslor wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Never gonna happen. Grind it all over again or persist in the doomed world ZOS have created.

Who knew a 1s cast time could be so destructive?!

I'd wager that if there had never been a cast time increase we'd be having this same level of discussion regarding shields being able to be crit, procced, etc.

Maulkin

*ahem* Lemme turn this situation into 4Chan meme-able format...

> be me
> be a magSorc in no-CP BGs
> already struggle to keep stambuilds at bay due to Streak stacking costs, low resources and little space
> wrobel adds swift
> it's super effective!
> try to survive on small no-CP shields in arenas filled with proc-sets, oblivion dmg, tank aoe dmg & root/snare meta
> try to stay positive despite all this
> mfw when Wrobel nerfs Dark Conversion, makes shields crittable and gives them cast-time all in the same patch

JadonSky

Vahrokh wrote: »

One of my trial guilds sorc class leader has contacted me to say that if the 1s "poop-motion" shield nerf goes live, he will switch to his templar (he has already done so) and I'll have to switch to another class too (stamsorc not allowed).

Thank you ZOS, for ruining my trials career in the guild I've done most of my progressions achievements!

P.S. I have 5 PvE sorcs. Five. And 1 magblade with 10h playtime and purple gear, which also got the nerf this patch. A magblade I don't like to play. That's it. Now please tell me why I should keep playing ESO.

Yeah I already moved all my sorcs gear to my magplar and built him for pvp. Sadly my sorc's won't be played anymore.

Grollok76

Kolache wrote: »

I'd wager that if there had never been a cast time increase we'd be having this same level of discussion regarding shields being able to be crit, procced, etc.

There would be discussions for sure, but they wouldn't be nearly as bad. Critable shields were talked about before, but the cast time disaster came completely out of left field.

THAT's what makes this mess so bad.

ku5h

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Ipslor wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

As it looks like right now, only thing that will keep me in the game post this *** is class respec token.

Never gonna happen. Grind it all over again or persist in the doomed world ZOS have created.

Already have them all grinded out, not the point. Only have 1 main and will never change it, I'll rather quit.

cpuScientist

Wanna make pets viable. Make them only killable by direct damage. AOE immune. Make them take heals from critsurge only not from other healers. Add an acception yo the rule in the form of AOE ultimates in PvP and jabs.

Then go through and see what trials and dungeons have direct damage that can Target orts and make it so it doesn't.

This way people who like to use Pet's to tank certain content solo and the like can still have their fun. Those who want to use them because again you are pushing them can do so. Sorc pry builds are unpopular for many reasons mainly they die and have brain dead AI. Fix a few things and people will use em.

Then finally make them not look so stupid.

Mihael

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RobGarrett its okay to be wrong and make mistakes no one will blame you for it, but the first step is to accept that you did something wrong and to do something about. Instead, you are just being stubborn with a change no one agrees with and instead of taking the massive amount of player feedback from players that know the game better than you ever will (not your fault some of us play 24/7) you choose to ignore everything and negatively impact a game we all love

ezio45

helped 15+ players <lvl50 kill a crab world boss last night..... thats something that i wont be able to do in murkimire....

or really do anything besides craft.......

Galarthor

ezio45 wrote: »

helped 15+ players <lvl50 kill a crab world boss last night..... thats something that i wont be able to do in murkimire....

or really do anything besides craft.......

Craftmanship is really undervalued in our modern society. Everybody wants to be something fancy these days.

ezio45

Was explaining this to my friends new acquaintance last time and i think a valid point was made

New acquaintance: Wow dude your like a really great player and have got all this crafting stuff done already, how long you been playing for (im actually trash, there just a lvl 21 but thats besides the point)
Me: A little under 2 yr for about 8hrs every days lol
friend: ya hes quitting next patch tho
New dude: wait why are you quitting?
me: *thinks for a second on how to explain nerfs and patch notes to a player that just found out he can actually use to bars and can have more then 5 abilities*
Me: well they made some changes to how my class works next patch
new dude: whats that mean
me: *thinks again for a moment* well you see basically even tho im max lvl next patch i wont be able to live any longer that you at lvl 21

ezio45

Galarthor wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

helped 15+ players <lvl50 kill a crab world boss last night..... thats something that i wont be able to do in murkimire....

or really do anything besides craft.......

Craftmanship is really undervalued in our modern society. Everybody wants to be something fancy these days.

loool who even wants crafted sets anymore

MalagenR

I honestly can't believe that after all of the comments made by the community on why these changes are awful that they haven't just admitted they were wrong and pushed off making changes till they have a more well thought out plan for execution with a different patch.

It's so ridiculous.

craftycarper73

Never mistake motion for action

Ernest Hemmingway