PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

CritsTheBed

The reps cant be blamed really. IMO they were pulled in as a novelty. A bridge between devs and us to make it seem as if zos wanted actual input from the community. As you can well see that was not the case whatsoever. Even though kena mained mnb since forever, i sincerely don't believe he or any other nb rep would want this kind of class gutting change. We were duped.

Doctordarkspawn

Minno wrote: »

Templars coming in for support for sorcs. We want to lend you our reps and feedback crew to help

This isn't even a joke, I'm a templar and I think that while the crit change is understandable and managable, the cast timer change is a bridge too far.

That said, wow, lotta hate on specific people, man. I'm guilty of it too, and I'll be the first to say that, but this is more then likely one of those things that'll be taken care of first thing. ZOS lisened to us when we made detailed arguements about focus, do the same.

ezio45

CavalryPK wrote: »

Hey guys, remember when long time ago they changed hunting curse and y'all lost your bananers?

Well....

I think this is an appropriate time to lose all your bananas.

Remain vigilant on your feedback and don't lose hope. this is only the first week of PTS and blah blah blah. We all know how this goes..... Buy week 3 or 4 they will implement balance changes....


Cheers,

dude hopes already gone, zos doesnt just go back on these things. there gunna see were made, make some "change" that does nothing and ship it to live. if they werent on board with this it wouldnt have made it to pts.

Ppl at zos looked at this, thought it was a good idea and decided to implement it. that fact alone speaks volumes if not novels about why this is not a company i want to give my money too

ezio45

EVERYONE SHIELD ARE ALSO INTERRUPTIBLE IF WE WERENT DEAD ENOUGH

just saw the vid from pts

zsban

Trying to be constructive about the magicka shield cast time.

My view on this is that stamina characters should bock, magicka characters should rely on shields to reduce/avoid damage.

Current state in my opinion:

As a stamina character:

• highest resource is stamina
• blocking costs stamina
• using abilities and avoiding damage therefore shares the same resource pool (same as magicka)
• can be used reactively when the need arises (same as magicka)
• can use many abilities while blocking, but not all (worse than magicka)
• mobility reduced while blocking (worse than magicka)
• no resource regeneration while blocking, but can block for as long as they want (debatable: worse than magicka)
• stamina is only used if incoming damage is received and blocked (debatable: better than magicka)

As a magicka character:

• highest resource is magicka
• shield costs magicka
• using abilities and avoiding damage therefore shares the same resource pool (same as stamina)
• can be used reactively when the need arises (same as stamina)
• can use every ability while shield is up (better than stamina)
• mobility is not impacted while shield is up (better than stamina)
• resource regenerates while shield is up, but shield has a limited uptime (currently 6 seconds) (debatable: better than stamina)
• magicka is used when casting the shield even if no damage is received and shielded (debatable: worse than stamina)

As we can see, both have their own pros and cons, mostly the debatable points, this system probably favored magicka classes a bit.

After the change, shields will not be used reactively, however a magicka character will have way less stamina to burn on blocking instead.

The change is also not consistent with other shield abilities, or with the shield granted by the psijic skill line when blocking (which will still pop instantly), and with shields from proc sets.

I don't think this will really solve the issue in PVP because a magicka character can still just slot a restoration staff on backbar and use healing ward.

However in PVE I think this will now favor stamina classes because slotting restoration staff in PVE is not really a desirable option, relying on proc sets either.... And because blocking uses stamina it's simply better targeted at stamina characters.

Another option could be to backbar an ice staff and use our magicka when blocking, however the tri-focus passive would make us also taunt the enemies.... And it's not possible to have tri-focus on main bar, but not on back bar....

Zer0oo

Completely unrelated question: When do we get class change token?

zsban

Reading back what I wrote, I'd suggest trying to add a mobility reduction while shield is up, similar to how blocking works.

I think the desirable state in PVP would be to NOT use shields before the need arises (aka shield stacking) but only proactively when needed. Reducing mobility while shield is up would do just that (and there would be no need to increase shield up time again from 6 seconds, especially as once shields can be critically hit again, they will never last 9 or 14 seconds).

In PVE it would allow people to use shields reactively, and reducing mobility there is less of a problem - most cases when I have to pop a shield, it's because I can't move out of the danger zone and have to stay put (and rely on healer).

I think this would be more consistent across the board:

• psijic shield while blocking limits mobility as well (due to blocking) while it's clearly a reactive measure
• popping a shield ability on demand would also limit mobility as well, so it would be in line with psijic shields
• shields gained from proc sets are already reactive measures (don't really like these, because they're passive ones, but that's a different discussion alltogether...)

pieratsos

Lmao. I guess thats all the feedback we can give.

Minno

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Templars coming in for support for sorcs. We want to lend you our reps and feedback crew to help

This isn't even a joke, I'm a templar and I think that while the crit change is understandable and managable, the cast timer change is a bridge too far.

That said, wow, lotta hate on specific people, man. I'm guilty of it too, and I'll be the first to say that, but this is more then likely one of those things that'll be taken care of first thing. ZOS lisened to us when we made detailed arguements about focus, do the same.

cast time = doo doo change.

Honestly, they should make one shield have a really high value but cast time and another instant cast but smaller.

Doctordarkspawn

Minno wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Templars coming in for support for sorcs. We want to lend you our reps and feedback crew to help

This isn't even a joke, I'm a templar and I think that while the crit change is understandable and managable, the cast timer change is a bridge too far.

That said, wow, lotta hate on specific people, man. I'm guilty of it too, and I'll be the first to say that, but this is more then likely one of those things that'll be taken care of first thing. ZOS lisened to us when we made detailed arguements about focus, do the same.

cast time = doo doo change.

Honestly, they should make one shield have a really high value but cast time and another instant cast but smaller.

It could work.

OtarTheMad

Can't blame the class reps on this honestly. It is a two way street and if ZOS doesn't listen to them that's on ZOS NOT the reps.

If the reps tell ZOS in a meeting to bring them some sandwiches and ZOS comes back with pizza, that's not the reps fault.

The_Lex

I feel like the Class Rep program was an attempt to create a scapegoat.

LadyNalcarya

It's really disappointing to see ZOS taking this "nerfsorc" meme seriously.
I dont have a sorc main, but really... What the hell are you guys thinking? Magsorc is far from being OP in both pvp and pve, and still you're nerfing them?

Biro123

Here's how it will go for PvP.

Sorc' already has poor damage from having to run 1.5 sustain sets.

Now to avoid their mighty shield getting 1-shot by a crit, and then being 1-shot before they can re-shield, sorcs are gonna have to run all impen and either high resist sets and/or heavy.
This screws with their sustain even more. Massively, in fact, which means no more 3x damage glyphs on jewellery... Which guts damage even more..
Yet there is still shieldbreaker, and still swift jewellery that renders streak useless..

Soo, forced into heavy, bad sustain, awful damage, terrible heals, not to mention the smaller shields from losing max mag sets too ..

As much as I'd like to see heavy magsorc work, I can't see this working, but neither can I see light working anymore either..

olsborg

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

?????????????

I don't need to test that on PTS to tell you that a cast time on shields will be super unfun to play. I don't want to go into balance much yet but giving shields a cast time and making them critable to give them more counterplay? Isn't shieldbreaker and Shattering Blows enough counterplay already?

Making them crittable was enough tbh. Giving them cast time aswell was a dagger in the back of magsorcs. Adding in the fact that sets like sloads and shieldbreaker still exists is making it beyond ridiculous. Please lessen the blow of this patchs nerf to magsorc (and I havent rly played mine in years) they dont need to get nerfed this hard.

Dracane

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Since I don't need to care anymore from now on. I am openly saying, I am going to sell my account. Ban me if you wish.
I've never said this before but I am done with this non-sense. Observing this pts cycle will be my last move and then it's time to move on from this destructive nerf fest.

Dramatically dissapointed by the class reps and the new combat designer. Absolute failure.

I am SO excited for BDO on console! Wanted to play ESO until then, but I'm gonna delete it anyway, if these changes go live. No point wasting any more time, money and nerves on this crap.

Luckily, there are many games and things to come that deserve my attention and Murkmire is none of them or ESO in general anymore. This sneaky move with bringing the impulse staff instead of the elemental drain staff, which would have been to come, was very mean again. So there isn't even a need to run that arena.

Lord_Eomer

Dracane wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Since I don't need to care anymore from now on. I am openly saying, I am going to sell my account. Ban me if you wish.
I've never said this before but I am done with this non-sense. Observing this pts cycle will be my last move and then it's time to move on from this destructive nerf fest.

Dramatically dissapointed by the class reps and the new combat designer. Absolute failure.

I am SO excited for BDO on console! Wanted to play ESO until then, but I'm gonna delete it anyway, if these changes go live. No point wasting any more time, money and nerves on this crap.

Luckily, there are many games and things to come that deserve my attention and Murkmire is none of them or ESO in general anymore. This sneaky move with bringing the impulse staff instead of the elemental drain staff, which would have been to come, was very mean again. So there isn't even a need to run that arena.

Exactly nothing useful to run this arena!

Minno

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Templars coming in for support for sorcs. We want to lend you our reps and feedback crew to help

This isn't even a joke, I'm a templar and I think that while the crit change is understandable and managable, the cast timer change is a bridge too far.

That said, wow, lotta hate on specific people, man. I'm guilty of it too, and I'll be the first to say that, but this is more then likely one of those things that'll be taken care of first thing. ZOS lisened to us when we made detailed arguements about focus, do the same.

cast time = doo doo change.

Honestly, they should make one shield have a really high value but cast time and another instant cast but smaller.

It could work.

and the instant cast one should give you a armor/heal/dmg/healing buff to compensate for the lack of shield (similar to templar/DK).

Cres

so Dark Deal really needed to be changed? While absolutely no improvements for a stam sorc in PVE or PVP?

ezio45

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Big thanks to class rep for bringing Magicka Sorc to knees, why not just simply put ban on Mag Sorc in PVP

class rep program isnt responsible, this is zos combat. Ive talked to at least one class rep. Zos didnt listen to a thing they said this patch note

Common! stop taking sides and here the whole class is gutted!

They have together ruined this class!

Ik the whole class is gutted dude, im the first one who posted about it

its not the reps fault tho its zos

ezio45

The_Patriarch wrote: »

I feel like the Class Rep program was an attempt to create a scapegoat.

they just wasted all the reps time to make it seem like they were making an effort

they got screwed over too

Myux

i feel so, so bad for all of u magsorcs. id glady take ur nerfs and give them to magblade so that we can be equal again...

ANYWAY time for constructive criticism, still plenty of time for zos to make changes like they always do.

1. making damage shields crittable + take resists into account. this is a straight nerf to pvp magsorcs as their resists are always comically teeny and most players will pretty much entirely penetrate the resists anyway. the concept of the change is fine, making damage shields consistent with HP, but for light armor users all you've done is make their shields break easier. if you wanna keep this change i'd recommend scaling up the defense the shield functionally has depending on the more light armor pieces or the less resists you have, in addition to making crits do less damage on them. or you could just increase the size of the mag-scaling shields if you wanted to bother with less math.

2. revamped overload. to be honest i love the idea of it. giving magsorcs a pressure ult and making overload actually useful aside from joke builds is a great idea, but the details on it are messy. if it still costs the same ult as it does now for each shot (75 ult, 64 with passives) thats entirely too expensive for the amount of damage it does when its reduced by 50%. the fact that you cant gain ult while in THE STANCE is a really big gimp to it as well. if you decrease the cost and let you regen ult during it, its pretty close to worth a slot, the only thing holding it back at that point is that going in and out of the stance takes a global cooldown. if you got rid of that, it could be great! tho i think getting rid of the 3rd bar is gonna make a lot of people sad. if you could bring that back somehow while still keeping the new overload, sorcs would be real happy i think.

3. SHIELD CAST TIMES OH GOD. this is completely and utterly pointless for the reason written on the PTS notes. it already takes time to pop a shield. its called the "global cooldown". using a shield isnt a free action in its current state, theres absolutely no need to add a cast time!!!! it leaves absolutely no counterplay when magsorcs are facing high pressure builds or multiple enemies, and is way too long to properly play defensively! in addition, it means that they wont be able to barswap cancel while using ward, which is an incredibly important part of magsorc play. this change in addition to the functionally weaker shield defense (see section 1) means magsorcs will be forced to play like heavy destro magblades except with worse damage and burst. this change alone removes all of their kill potential, and all of their defense. for the love of god revert it

as your reward for reading all this junk by me, have a cat pic

Galarthor

Feanor wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Great changes tbh. The shield stacking has gotten out of control.....

It’s quite ironic seeing a stamNB receiving even more buffs and thinking it’s great other classes get huge nerfs.

Well ... at least ZOS is consistent.
They consistently buff stamblades with every update.

BaylorCorvette

Cres wrote: »

so Dark Deal really needed to be changed? While absolutely no improvements for a stam sorc in PVE or PVP?

This.

I don't understand it either. 1.2 second interruptable ability was fine. Meanwhile Warden as an ability that is free and grants more stamina over time and was BUFFED. Remove the cast time on Dark Deal and things seem a bit better.. If you remove the cast time then make the healing part of dark deal a HOT. Or honestly keep the burst heal there. Stamdens have a burst heal anyways..

Lord-Otto

Dracane wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Since I don't need to care anymore from now on. I am openly saying, I am going to sell my account. Ban me if you wish.
I've never said this before but I am done with this non-sense. Observing this pts cycle will be my last move and then it's time to move on from this destructive nerf fest.

Dramatically dissapointed by the class reps and the new combat designer. Absolute failure.

I am SO excited for BDO on console! Wanted to play ESO until then, but I'm gonna delete it anyway, if these changes go live. No point wasting any more time, money and nerves on this crap.

Luckily, there are many games and things to come that deserve my attention and Murkmire is none of them or ESO in general anymore. This sneaky move with bringing the impulse staff instead of the elemental drain staff, which would have been to come, was very mean again. So there isn't even a need to run that arena.

Didn't care for neither. Wanted a 1 pc bonus on Master/Maelstrom/Asylum. Did I overlook it or was there really nothing???
=C

Cres

Remove Dark deal cast time!

Ariades_swe

I'm not even playing sorcs but I'm out now.
Out of all mmos I've played your developers always made the most fundamentally game changing nerfs or buffs. Its like you invent a new game every 3 months.
Soft caps gone which totally killed hybrids, dynamic ulti, vr ranks ,sustain changes etc
I'm not saying all changes been bad but overall you never had any sense whatsoever for small steps. It's always the big sledgehammer.
It makes you look totally clueless but I think the reason you always overbuff or overnerf is way more sinister and tied to the crown store.

BaylorCorvette

Cres wrote: »

Remove Dark deal cast time!

This.

Would give a StamSorc a nice burst heal similar to Stamdens Soothing Spores.

Should make DD instant cast. Would allow for a nice burst heal for StamSorc, keep the change to stamina you get back (2k up front and 2k over 20 seconds) but perhaps adjust the mag cost of this ability to make up for the instant cast change.

Biro123

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Cres wrote: »

Remove Dark deal cast time!

This.

Would give a StamSorc a nice burst heal similar to Stamdens Soothing Spores.

Should make DD instant cast. Would allow for a nice burst heal for StamSorc, keep the change to stamina you get back (2k up front and 2k over 20 seconds) but perhaps adjust the mag cost of this ability to make up for the instant cast change.

Don't forget magsorc! Now shields are screwed.

hero2zer0

So shields will be ignored in pvp (can roll+shield in pve I guess?), I'm not sure I dislike this change, but can we at least get a functional on demand heal please?

Here are the current healing options for a mag sorc:
1. Surge - very weak heal, with a 1 second cooldown. Needs high crit to be effective, Good duration tho!
2. Blood Magic Passive - very weak heal (unless running 50k++ health 2. ) cannot be spammed, 0.5s cooldown.
3. Twilight Pet - Expensive to cast, locked behind a long cast time, can be killed, cannot be protected instantly (1s shield cast time yo).
4. Entropy - very weak OverTime heal, mediocre duration.
5. Minor Lifesteal (Blood Altar) - very weak OverTime heal, good duration and range, 1.5s cast time.
6. Minor Lifesteal (Quick Siphon) - very weak OverTime heal, decent duration, good cost. Needs Restoration Staff equipped.
7. Essence Drain - Needs to be a vampire, 3s channel, weak OverTime heal, mediocre range.
8. Grand Healing - Weak burst heal, okaish OverTime heal, needs Restoration Staff equipped.
9. Regeneration - No burst heal, mediocre OverTime heal, needs Restoration Staff equipped. No guaranteed self cast!
10. Blessing of Protection - Good burst heal, no OverTime heal, expensive to cast. Needs Restoration Staff equipped.
11. Healing Ward - Weak Burst heal, weak shield, no OverTime heal, expensive to case, needs Restoration Staff equipped, no guaranteed self cast!


Sadly all of the above options are by far and large to anything any other class has available:
1. Templar - Rushed Ceremony while also not guaranteeing a self cast, does not require a specific weapon, is instant cast, and hes one of the best burst heals in the game. Also healing while doing damage (not only crits, compared to surge!) with Sweep.
2. Warden - Fungal Growth is a great burst heal, aoe, had stamina morph or adds minor intellect buff. Living Vines is a very good OverTime heal, while not being a guaranteed self cast, with a very low cost and good passive synergy. Bonus points for activating Betty for free - this will heal AND remove 1 negative effect, can you add this to ALL classes please?
3. Dragonknight - Dragon Blood is really great, instant cast, very good burst heal. Can also have major mending using Obsidian shield.
4. Nightblade - Dark Cloak is as good as Dragon Blood, and it also adds major protection, while being cheaper to cast (poor DK's ), Strife allows to be healed while doing damage (again, not only on crits!) Siphoning Strikes and Drain Power are also not bad...
5. Any Stamina morph - Vigor, aka best heal in the game, because why not? Rally is also not bad if you use a 2h (but hey, only magicka chars need to use a specific weapon to heal, right? or was it only the Sorc? 5. )


So the only possible logic out of the above wall of text is to give Sorcs (specifically of the Magicka flavor) a reliable, on demand burst heal! I'm sure the devs can work out better ways to achieve this, but I feel I can contribute a few ideas. not all of them need to be implemented of course, but even one of theses would be nice:
1. Make the Twilight an instant cast, toggle able, 20~30 second, non kill-able pet (Netch kind of thing), with two distinct morphs: One with a heal (which can keep the current cost and functionality), the other can give a buff, say Minor Berserk, just for the sake of things!
2. Rework Surge - remove the cool-down OR make it heal on every hit, not just crits.
3. Completely remove cast time from Dark Exchange (keep the resource restore as is with this PTS, I like that part of the change).



TLDR: Shields are getting a 1-second cast time, (Mag) Sorcs need another defensive option (read: a reliable class Burst heal: Twilight Matriarch has a cast time, protecting it has another cast time now, even then the heal is not guaranteed to be cast on the Sorc himself).