Is Swift balanced?

dassneakereb17_ESO

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

swift is op af, it won't be nerfed because it's a soft p2w
it would be op af even in perfect no-lag version of ESO from parallel dimension
30% movespeed or 5% dps what a tough choise loololol

Datthaw

You can always tell something is over performing by this...does NOT running swift in cyro hurt you.... short answer yes....yes it does.

With the meta change and all these stam toons are running it, to have a chance you're also forced into running it or you never have a chance to kill them and they will just circle you like a shark resetting the fight.

It is op in the sense that it has changed the meta. Things that aren't op don't change meta.

technohic

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

TankHealz2015

In Theory = having the option to trade more mobility for less (something else) seems great. More variety, more diversity, etc...

In Reality = some players have discovered significant benefits with increased speed, but minimum or no cost or trade off of the (something else). This is normal when new DLC comes online.... Many game developers have mentioned during interviews, how the player base always seems to find new ideas or options that they never considered or planned for...


It seems that with the addition of the swift jewelry trait, perhaps some part of the game is not "working as intended".

Maybe the player speed cap was inadvertently adjusted?
Maybe the increased player movement speed is causing a de-sync problem with targeting?

There is another thread asking if there is a new exploit/bug where you cannot target people in melee range. That thread seems to be related to players moving at very fast speed. Something about lag + walking through the enemy player + fast strafing in circles = difficult to target or cannot be targeted.

I would imagine that some combination of things might be "over-performing" or "not working as intended". Just a guess.

Perhaps the increase in player speed is just highlighting a different issue (hit boxes, or targeting, or lag....?)

Myself, I have noticed that sometimes I get lag, but the little meter on my screen (FPS, ping) does not show a problem/ it looks like good numbers. Previously, when lag was getting bad, I would see my numbers jump around or even go red. So in effect, my computer is telling me "connection is good" but actually, I have lag and don't realize it yet. Maybe a player kills me due to the lag issue, but I'm perceiving it as something else...


Orc race speed bonus +
class movement speed bonus +
swift trait x3 +
steed mundus +
speed potion(s) +
reduce potion cooldown enchanments x3

There are also comments in another thread about some armor set 5 piece bonuses being glitched -- as to allow a player to keep the 5 piece bonus even after swapping into a different armor set. Wow, nice glitch to have!

Would you like to have 4 five piece armor set bonuses active at the same time while in Cyridil PvP?
Maybe this is "just an "urban legend"


Or maybe some of us are just terrible players and need L2P.

HankTwo

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

technohic wrote: »

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

To be fair, it would be nice to have some meaningful choice for defensive traits in PvP. Right now impenetrable is better than even reinforced on a heavy armor cuirass 99% of the time.

technohic

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

HankTwo wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

To be fair, it would be nice to have some meaningful choice for defensive traits in PvP. Right now impenetrable is better than even reinforced on a heavy armor cuirass 99% of the time.

That is true. The thing is, I dont think its caused by impen values themselves, just rather how powerful crit modifiers are. In PVE, it seems to get better damage, people like to stack crit more than base damage itself.

HankTwo

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

technohic wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

To be fair, it would be nice to have some meaningful choice for defensive traits in PvP. Right now impenetrable is better than even reinforced on a heavy armor cuirass 99% of the time.

That is true. The thing is, I dont think its caused by impen values themselves, just rather how powerful crit modifiers are. In PVE, it seems to get better damage, people like to stack crit more than base damage itself.

Your opponent doesn't even have to build for crit to make impenetrable worth your while. Crit modifiers and crit resistance are just different sides of the same equation and maybe worth discussing. But on another thread, since its off topic here ^^

NyassaV

Swift is fine as is

Until we get more snare removal options for Magicka hell yeah swift is balanced

NyassaV

Swift is fine as is

Feanor wrote: »

Pijng wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Compared to robust u r losing 2,4k stamina, compared to infused u r losing 312 weapon dmg. Sounds fair.

Not when you can easily make up for it with proc or bleed damage, especially in noCP.

But you can do it as well with 3 arcane or infused. Even more damage, uh.

Procs or Bleeds are not amplified by stat pools.

That depends on the source (CP wand Pen will increase proc damage no matter the source). But pretty sure bleeds are affected by max stamina as per the norm for most physical damage

TheMystid

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

dassneakereb17_ESO wrote: »

swift is op af, it won't be nerfed because it's a soft p2w
it would be op af even in perfect no-lag version of ESO from parallel dimension
30% movespeed or 5% dps what a tough choise loololol

Waffennacht

Swift is fine as is

Walking through someone as Los has been in game and used by players since launch

rimmidimdim

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

Lower speed cap not swift. Swift has draw backs, but these troll builds should be capped because as a post earlier said, the game doesn't allow you to hit them even if you keep up. So the speed cap ahould be reduced. Cheers.

My vote was wrong

CatchMeTrolling

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

A mag nb can do that without swift, I did it all the time when I played melee magblade.

Minno

Swift is fine as is

HankTwo wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

To be fair, it would be nice to have some meaningful choice for defensive traits in PvP. Right now impenetrable is better than even reinforced on a heavy armor cuirass 99% of the time.

It's powerful because it's effect exists before the DMG begins to hit your mitigation.

leepalmer95

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

You can clearly see the difference between having swift and not.

Trying to use skills such as dizzying or jabs vs someone with 2/3 swift is just impossible.

Trying to catch anyone with swift when you don't have them is annoying.


When something new basically becomes advised by every competent pvper, yeah its strong.

I haven't got the dlc myself, but i've dueled against people with and without swift and the difference is obvious, i've seen how much more survivable they become with it open world as well.

It's a soft p2w aspect of the game, pretty much its either pay zos for a overpriced dlc or simply always be at a disadvantage in pvp.

Mobility was always a unique aspect or either medium users sprinting or stam sorc's. Now you get a free minor expedition from giving up 800 stamina/ magicka.

I wouldn't mind but you don't really give anything up for the speed. The resource loss isn't even noticeable.

Kadoin

It's fine. ZOS just needs to fix the bugs with movement speed and targeting. Definitely too much abuse of that right now in PvP...Luckily there are skills that let you hit someone moving at light speed no matter what distance they go. Now, the moment you fight someone with absorb magic + shield ult and movement speed...

Datthaw

technohic wrote: »

By that logic, impen and crit resist has been OP as hell since launch

I means.... yeah I get what you're saying. But you can't deny, swift is very strong.

I kinda like it, it has made me rethink every one of my build and how not to suck.

I just feel its strong enough and has a visible impact on cyro (all you guys, looking at you stam bois) who run it and track and bait groups. This brings nerf threads like this on and people start to qq.

IZZEFlameLash

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You can clearly see the difference between having swift and not.

Trying to use skills such as dizzying or jabs vs someone with 2/3 swift is just impossible.

Trying to catch anyone with swift when you don't have them is annoying.


When something new basically becomes advised by every competent pvper, yeah its strong.

I haven't got the dlc myself, but i've dueled against people with and without swift and the difference is obvious, i've seen how much more survivable they become with it open world as well.

It's a soft p2w aspect of the game, pretty much its either pay zos for a overpriced dlc or simply always be at a disadvantage in pvp.

Mobility was always a unique aspect or either medium users sprinting or stam sorc's. Now you get a free minor expedition from giving up 800 stamina/ magicka.

I wouldn't mind but you don't really give anything up for the speed. The resource loss isn't even noticeable.

Resources lost translates to what... about 200~300ish loss of damage on the tooltip for burst damage skills? So very negligible compared to when you can basically not get hit since you move so fast that you outrange any of the melee skills which is especially more troublesome for classes like mDK and Templars. Nothing like animation suddenly disappear and sometimes consuming resources (I am looking at you, Leap and Flame Lash). 2500 ish resource for better mitigation and resource drain (lol). Hardly a sacrifice if you ask me.

fred4

Swift is fine as is

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's a soft p2w aspect of the game, pretty much its either pay zos for a overpriced dlc or simply always be at a disadvantage in pvp.

Really? You mean you can't research / transmute without Summerset? You can certainly get your friend / guildmate to make you crafted jewelry though.

Mobility was always a unique aspect or either medium users sprinting or stam sorc's. Now you get a free minor expedition from giving up 800 stamina/ magicka.

Show me your gold ring!

I wouldn't mind but you don't really give anything up for the speed. The resource loss isn't even noticeable.

It is very noticeable. +10% speed / Minor Expedition may not be, but neither is the speed much to write home about. +30% / Major expedition, on the other hand, requires you to sacrifice something like 3.5K mag (or stam), when you take racial and Undaunted Mettle buffs into account, not to mention the possibility of Inner Light / Northern Storm / NB Siphoning skill. That's the same as a Julianos or Hunding's 5-piece bonus with Sorcery or Brutality. You don't rate those sets either, do you? I like the speed, but I am acutely conscious of my shields and my Vigor taking a hit from running Swift.

Sharee

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

The problem is not necessarily swift, the problem is that the overall speed characters generally move at is just too damn high, and as pointed out earlier, the server can not handle it well.

I believe all speed boosts should be cut in half as part of the battle spirit debuff.

WreckfulAbandon

Swift should be 7.5% per jewelry piece

I can think of few arguments against running at least 1-2 Swift on just about every setup. One case where it's a somewhat meaningful sacrifice is mSorc who desperately needs magicka. This is one of those balance arguments that is not easy to discuss because the extra speed isn't reflected on any character sheet; but having superior speed is an enormous tactical advantage or you aren't utilizing it correctly. Wonky targeting and hit boxes aside, Swift is making its presence felt in a big way. Jailbreaker and Steed Stone got rekt by Swift. Although Jailbreaker, lol. Just saying those were the previous benchmarks. Every one of my PvP toons has always had Windrunning because I can notice 2% extra speed. I can thank Ezareth for that.

Even if we could mathematically determine that the resource loss is balanced against 10% speed per, I also made this thread to point out that the mobility meta has officially gone too far imo. Extremely low risk builds that can ulti dump and take off. Balorgh plays right into that. The mobility meta makes a mockery out of lots of game mechanics: ground based DoT's, channels, "stand your ground," "Templar House" (lol, thanks for the Rune buff I guess), objectives in BG's. Ranged gameplay's advantages are eroded. Escaping from people becomes too easy. Streak still has exponential cost. It's a huge change and there will be collateral.

(collateral other than everyone running a Sonic the Hedgehog build)

HankTwo

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

Its pretty ridiculous actually now that I put more thought into it. Its true that 3 jewelry traits were and should be worth around a 5 piece set bonus:

3 robust = 2610 stam ~ draugr hulk
3 infused weapon damage = 313 extra weapon damage ~ hundings rage
2 robust + 1 infused stam regen = 1740 stam + 101 extra stam regen ~ bone pirate
The same calculations can be made for magicka sets.

Now lets imagine a set that would give 3 swift traits as a 5 piece bonus: 30% extra movement speed that is not (!) major expedition, so it could be stacked. I bet that before the release of summerset most PvP players with good knowledge about the game would have considered that very OP. And even now with swift around it seems pretty ridiculous as a bonus to me.

In fact, there isn't even a set in the game that gives unconditional major expedition as a five piece bonus. And 30% extra speed that is stackable with major expedition is much more powerful anyway. Don't believe me? The reason mighty chudan is not that popular amongst the community is that it gives major resolve and major ward, while fortified brass is considered a good set because the bonus is stackable. No one would run fortified brass if it would give the same bonuses as chudan. Heck, they even buffed this monster set for the exact same reason.

So, being able to stack swift jewelry with expedition buffs is, quite frankly, pretty op.

Edit: Many people now, myself included, have the feeling that ZOS introduces OP sets or other item customizations with new DLCs on purpose to sell them easier. The question the community has to ask itself is: do we want this? Or should DLCs be worth buying because of honest and good actual content.

Crixus8000

Swift is fine as is

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Swift is too strong on stamina anything, especially on HA brawler builds - it synergizes too well with Forward Momentum and Shuffle (not to the same extend due to lower immunity duration). We are at a point where even range damage can be outrun. The game can't handle that in my opinion.

But I don't like any of the proposed solutions. Snares are not popular, yet they are necessary. I personally preferred Elder Snares Online over the current Elder Swift Online.

My approach would be to strap any snare immunity function from forward momentum (and maybe even shuffle), the removal on cast can stay. Since snares have been nerfed heavily and swift has been introduced as soft counter I can imagine the outcome feeling a lot better than basically every stamina player running from anything that doesn't go his way. Swift stamina builds should be punishable, swift shouldn't be a free pass.

I agree, kinda.

Snares are necessary and the continued erosion of control forces people further into mobile builds, which always benefits naturally mobile builds more.

But 60% snares on someone who moves at base speed is way too strong.
It should instead be 30% major, 10% minor, but multiplicative so faster builds are effected more. Momentum/shuffle/wings should only reduce snare percentages and remove roots for 2s. That way snares/roots are usable but less oppressive.

For me playing a stamsorc in heavy and having a very defensive build I can still die fast with multiple people hitting me since damage is very high right now, especially with bleeds. When stambuilds are snared none of them just stands there, they need to use immunity and use los. Having skills only give 2 seconds of immunity would mean having to spam it every 2 seconds, that would destroy sustain. And the strength of the snare doesn't matter, if your snared your going to have to get rid of it.

technohic

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

Taking away the immunity skills would be a big loss for solo and small scalers and a big win for zergs who basically root and snare you into not being able to get away.

I think FM having the longest while being the cheapest is what needs to be changed. Shuffle should get the longest and maybe make it the point of shuffle and reduce it to minor evasion then make elude the major evasion morph. Make choices a bit more interesting

leepalmer95

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

fred4 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's a soft p2w aspect of the game, pretty much its either pay zos for a overpriced dlc or simply always be at a disadvantage in pvp.

Really? You mean you can't research / transmute without Summerset? You can certainly get your friend / guildmate to make you crafted jewelry though.

Mobility was always a unique aspect or either medium users sprinting or stam sorc's. Now you get a free minor expedition from giving up 800 stamina/ magicka.

Show me your gold ring!

I wouldn't mind but you don't really give anything up for the speed. The resource loss isn't even noticeable.

It is very noticeable. +10% speed / Minor Expedition may not be, but neither is the speed much to write home about. +30% / Major expedition, on the other hand, requires you to sacrifice something like 3.5K mag (or stam), when you take racial and Undaunted Mettle buffs into account, not to mention the possibility of Inner Light / Northern Storm / NB Siphoning skill. That's the same as a Julianos or Hunding's 5-piece bonus with Sorcery or Brutality. You don't rate those sets either, do you? I like the speed, but I am acutely conscious of my shields and my Vigor taking a hit from running Swift.

3k resource loss isn't noticable at all.

3k resource or 30% speed isn't even a question.

I also have plenty of gold sets from pvp rewards and the pvp vendor.

Amdar_Godkiller

Swift should be 7.5% per jewelry piece

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

A mag nb can do that without swift, I did it all the time when I played melee magblade.

I feel like you are actually one of the ones I'm referencing, as your forum name seems very similar to a super fast player's gamertag I've fought on XBO in Vivec or Shor. lol

But as I went on to explain, the issue I have with swift would be mostly eliminated by preventing cloaked NBs from knowing when they are being "detected", as there would be some counterplay once again to such a gameplay style. Sure, very talented Mabblades like yourself will still be able to do that to some average-to-potato-level opponents, but the issue is that currently average-to-potato-level magblades can do this to otherwise solid PVPers because they can tell who has the pots to find them and only have to avoid that one or two players and can do so easily with swift jewelry, expedition, their shadow image, and vampire passives.

Sureshawt

ManDraKE wrote: »

The problem is not swift being overpowered or not, the problem is the combat system working like crap vs targets moving at high speed.

Trying to hit a stamsorc with minor+major expedition and swift jewerly with meele attacks is borderline stupid. If you understand some combat mechanics you can abuse the combat system to the point where a guy sitting right in front of you will miss 50% of his attacks, even when you are on range of their meelee abilities. I'm not going into details, but experienced stam PvPers know how to abuse this. And this is not a problem only with stamsorcs, you can do it with every class, stamsorcs are just the most obvious example of it.

Movement speed is already a problem, and i really dont see how they can fix it withouth some awful bandit fix like they did with the unresistable snare in gapclosers. That being said, i just finished with the research of the trait and i'm going to slap swift in every single build LOL

This ^

Methariorn

Just set a decent speed cap like 35/40% and swift is fine. With this crap server and netcoding a 60/70% speed boost is insane. Trade like a 5-10% damage for a 30% speed boost? Lol. Just put speed and cc on a decent level when you can actualy play a pvp mmo without begin perma cc or forced to run stupid build to take advantage of game mechanics and poor server performance.

CatchMeTrolling

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

A mag nb can do that without swift, I did it all the time when I played melee magblade.

I feel like you are actually one of the ones I'm referencing, as your forum name seems very similar to a super fast player's gamertag I've fought on XBO in Vivec or Shor. lol

But as I went on to explain, the issue I have with swift would be mostly eliminated by preventing cloaked NBs from knowing when they are being "detected", as there would be some counterplay once again to such a gameplay style. Sure, very talented Mabblades like yourself will still be able to do that to some average-to-potato-level opponents, but the issue is that currently average-to-potato-level magblades can do this to otherwise solid PVPers because they can tell who has the pots to find them and only have to avoid that one or two players and can do so easily with swift jewelry, expedition, their shadow image, and vampire passives.

My gt isn’t the same anymore and I haven’t played melee blade in awhile.

I can agree that detecting that you’re being detected was a silly implementation and should be reverted.

The actual problem with swift isn’t the speed it grants it’s the fact most of the dps skills are telegraphed and easily avoidable. That’s why it’s been a no brainer to run speed pots or some form of major expedition.

Plus mag blade will always be a nuisance to deal with because if they don’t want to die then they won’t because of perma cloak, speed and shadow image.

leepalmer95

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

A mag nb can do that without swift, I did it all the time when I played melee magblade.

I feel like you are actually one of the ones I'm referencing, as your forum name seems very similar to a super fast player's gamertag I've fought on XBO in Vivec or Shor. lol

But as I went on to explain, the issue I have with swift would be mostly eliminated by preventing cloaked NBs from knowing when they are being "detected", as there would be some counterplay once again to such a gameplay style. Sure, very talented Mabblades like yourself will still be able to do that to some average-to-potato-level opponents, but the issue is that currently average-to-potato-level magblades can do this to otherwise solid PVPers because they can tell who has the pots to find them and only have to avoid that one or two players and can do so easily with swift jewelry, expedition, their shadow image, and vampire passives.

My gt isn’t the same anymore and I haven’t played melee blade in awhile.

I can agree that detecting that you’re being detected was a silly implementation and should be reverted.

The actual problem with swift isn’t the speed it grants it’s the fact most of the dps skills are telegraphed and easily avoidable. That’s why it’s been a no brainer to run speed pots or some form of major expedition.

Plus mag blade will always be a nuisance to deal with because if they don’t want to die then they won’t because of perma cloak, speed and shadow image.

I've found staying next to them with an imov/ speed pot and forward momentum up spamming steel tornado effective. I'm also at max movement speed because balance so they can't get away tbh. If they stop cloaking i'd immediately snare them but they're usually rip by other people by then.