Is Swift balanced?

Datthaw

Swift is broken, don't believe me? Catch and kill that stamsorc

Crixus8000

Swift is fine as is

Swift is fine, your trading a decent damage boost for movespeed, nothing wrong with that.

Maybe I would feel different if this game didn't have a free snare attatched to every skill and move you make, and didn't have a million cc's that you can't stop, or getting double cc'd, cc'd in immunity, oh and poisons that ignore all immunity and snare/ cc you too. All that makes speed much worse. I have been in many fights outnumbered where I use an immove pot with 30% speed and still move like I'm walking in 7 heavy...

WuffyCerulei

Swift is fine as is

Swift's fine. Anyone using 3 swift is just trying to emulate Sanic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX7zPlQjAr8

WaltherCarraway

Swift is fine as is

what
me?

Lieblingsjunge

Swift itself is fine.
What needs to be done is that it doesn't stack with Major/Minor Expedition.
Because with major/minor exp. + 3x swift, nobody can ever catch up to you. Put a cap on the movement speed and limit it to e.g. 1 major expedition speed + sprint(Like before Swift) maximum.

Just give speed -stacking the Sprint-cost/speed-treatment, as to where you put a cap on how fast someone can run. Problem solved.

That way you deal with the issue that's speed-stacking for already hyper-mobile classes, and you don't take it away from the magicka classes that finally has some movement-speed.

Ariades_swe

Swift is fine as is

They should just make it not stack with major expedition if it turns out to be too op.
I think overall its fine though.

Maulkin

Context is important.

I don't think it's problematic in Cyrodiil. It allows you to kite zergs a bit better and have a chance at disengaging from ugly fights at the expense of having less damage and/or sustain while fighting. If anything I'd say it's quite welcome.

However, in the context of Chaosball BGs... well it turns them into complete mockery. If it gets picked by a stamSorc rolling Swift, it's a free +150 points for them until the ball starts to really burn them. Unless you have your own stamSorc rolling Swift as well as a gap closer equipped, it's a pointless exercise. Especially on large maps with plenty of LOS cover.

Same problem to an extent with relics. A stam build that picks a relic up and has shuffle/FM can go from base to base, faster than a streaking magSorc. And Sorcs are not even allowed to streak because that's an unfair advantage, ironically.

My solution to these problems is simple; put a different and prohibitively low speed cap to players carrying an object of interest (relic, chaosball, scroll). Yes you might lose the full effectiveness of your traits or whatever, but that's not even half as punishing as locking streak and cloak from the bars of Sorcs and NBs.

Joy_Division

Swift is fine as is

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced it's fine as is. Just wanted to gauge opinion. I see people are protective of all the transmute crystals they spent! I would still keep my Swift jewelry at 7.5% each but it would make the choice more meaningful imo.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Can we go one week without a topic saying something in the game is overpowered?

Every time people convince ZOS to nerf something, something else will seem to be overpowered so more nerf requests start rolling in.

Jewelry crafting hasn't been out for too long. One swift by itself is hardly game-breaking. Three are good, but it gives up a bunch of stats and I haven't had enough time to judge

Let us know if you change your mind after trying 3 swift for awhile. It's a game changer; 3k resources is not. With minor expedition and 3 swift you jog as fast as a lot of builds sprint. Throw in major and you're making people alt+f4 in BG's.

redspecter23 wrote: »

Swift is fine. You are right that by comparison Steed is absolute garbage for movement speed. It's barely perceptible, even with full divines. Buff Steed.

I think Steed is fine since it gives health regen and supposedly speeds up heavies. But Swift shouldn't outperform it to the degree that it does.

Well, if you think the Steed stone is fine, odds are we are not going to come to an agreement on balance.

Right now because I already play the "wrong" race, my stats are pretty low as it is and when I used Swift, I felt the damage sacrifice was too much, especially when I can get speed elsewhere (in contrast, one can't get stats by popping potions).

A lot of things make me Alt-F4 out of battlegrounds, the loss of a huge amount of stamina and the sprint passive making me utterly incapable of countering a fast build is one such thing.

I also think Harmony is potentially quite a bit stronger than Swift.

Brutusmax1mus

Swift is fine as is

dave011 wrote: »

You are missing a option

# we don't care as speed has all ready been nurfed

the only place speed has a small factor is in PVP and only when scroll running. If you have a good team you can get a scroll back even from the far side of all it takes is planing and teamwork.

Lol so clueless

Morgul667

Swift is fine as is

Its fine stop the nerfs

Minno

Swift is fine as is

Joy_Division wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced it's fine as is. Just wanted to gauge opinion. I see people are protective of all the transmute crystals they spent! I would still keep my Swift jewelry at 7.5% each but it would make the choice more meaningful imo.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Can we go one week without a topic saying something in the game is overpowered?

Every time people convince ZOS to nerf something, something else will seem to be overpowered so more nerf requests start rolling in.

Jewelry crafting hasn't been out for too long. One swift by itself is hardly game-breaking. Three are good, but it gives up a bunch of stats and I haven't had enough time to judge

Let us know if you change your mind after trying 3 swift for awhile. It's a game changer; 3k resources is not. With minor expedition and 3 swift you jog as fast as a lot of builds sprint. Throw in major and you're making people alt+f4 in BG's.

redspecter23 wrote: »

Swift is fine. You are right that by comparison Steed is absolute garbage for movement speed. It's barely perceptible, even with full divines. Buff Steed.

I think Steed is fine since it gives health regen and supposedly speeds up heavies. But Swift shouldn't outperform it to the degree that it does.

Well, if you think the Steed stone is fine, odds are we are not going to come to an agreement on balance.

Right now because I already play the "wrong" race, my stats are pretty low as it is and when I used Swift, I felt the damage sacrifice was too much, especially when I can get speed elsewhere (in contrast, one can't get stats by popping potions).

A lot of things make me Alt-F4 out of battlegrounds, the loss of a huge amount of stamina and the sprint passive making me utterly incapable of countering a fast build is one such thing.

I also think Harmony is potentially quite a bit stronger than Swift.

In some ways, immobilze should of had its own cooldown/immunity and series of counters.

And snares should only exist on ground based abilities.

But we live in the world of wrobel so one cheap 2100-1900 Stam spell removes all snares/immobilze causing all builds that try to use snares/immobilze to land complex attacks to feel useless in content.

Idk a real fix for this honestly. Except mag gets its own version of bone pirate or a set that can help alleviate mag builds from missing out on stamina Regen.

Biro123

I think in theory, its balanced.

In practice - its over-performing, since lag makes it impossible to target a speedster - even just to land a snare! I think its currently the strongest defensive mechanism in the game.

(Devil's advocate) Given that cage was nerfed to oblivion because of the break-free bugs - I guess swift should be nerfed to oblivion because lag ?

ak_pvp

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Swift is too strong on stamina anything, especially on HA brawler builds - it synergizes too well with Forward Momentum and Shuffle (not to the same extend due to lower immunity duration). We are at a point where even range damage can be outrun. The game can't handle that in my opinion.

But I don't like any of the proposed solutions. Snares are not popular, yet they are necessary. I personally preferred Elder Snares Online over the current Elder Swift Online.

My approach would be to strap any snare immunity function from forward momentum (and maybe even shuffle), the removal on cast can stay. Since snares have been nerfed heavily and swift has been introduced as soft counter I can imagine the outcome feeling a lot better than basically every stamina player running from anything that doesn't go his way. Swift stamina builds should be punishable, swift shouldn't be a free pass.

I agree, kinda.

Snares are necessary and the continued erosion of control forces people further into mobile builds, which always benefits naturally mobile builds more.

But 60% snares on someone who moves at base speed is way too strong.
It should instead be 30% major, 10% minor, but multiplicative so faster builds are effected more. Momentum/shuffle/wings should only reduce snare percentages and remove roots for 2s. That way snares/roots are usable but less oppressive.

NBrookus

I think speed, by itself, is fine. There already is a speed cap in place.

The targetting system just can't cope, though, and that's a problem.

Jjitsuboy98

Swift is fine as is

I wanna try swift on a mag dk with speed pots.......

Galarthor

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

Swift is overperforming on stamina builds as it far better synergies with their tool kit and the opportunity cost are far less than for magicka builds as these not only lose offensive power but also defensive potential.

This also explains why so many people vote for it to be fine:
1) Stamina builds want to keep their edge / OP advantage
2) Magicka builds feel it is fine, b/c for them it actually is. The opportunity cost are sufficiently high and the synergies not as great as for the Stamina builds.

The only way to make Swift balanced is to either reduce synergy benefits to stamina builds and/or increasing their opportunity cost. Or increase synergy benefits to magicka builds and/or reduce their opportunity cost.

PS: I voted 5% only, b/c the majority of builds in PVP are Stamina Builds and the stamina builds are also outperforming the magicka builds in PvP. So I think the benefits of tuning down the stamina builds outweigh the cost to magicka builds.

Qbiken

Swift should be 5% per jewelry piece

I´ll try Swift on my werewolf. Good luck catching me (or running away)

HankTwo

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

I'd rather see swift reduce the effect of snares instead.

DeadlyRecluse

HankTwo wrote: »

I'd rather see swift reduce the effect of snares instead.

This is a pretty solid idea. Or a little of both.

KingExecration

Maulkin wrote: »

Context is important.

I don't think it's problematic in Cyrodiil. It allows you to kite zergs a bit better and have a chance at disengaging from ugly fights at the expense of having less damage and/or sustain while fighting. If anything I'd say it's quite welcome.

However, in the context of Chaosball BGs... well it turns them into complete mockery. If it gets picked by a stamSorc rolling Swift, it's a free +150 points for them until the ball starts to really burn them. Unless you have your own stamSorc rolling Swift as well as a gap closer equipped, it's a pointless exercise. Especially on large maps with plenty of LOS cover.

Same problem to an extent with relics. A stam build that picks a relic up and has shuffle/FM can go from base to base, faster than a streaking magSorc. And Sorcs are not even allowed to streak because that's an unfair advantage, ironically.

My solution to these problems is simple; put a different and prohibitively low speed cap to players carrying an object of interest (relic, chaosball, scroll). Yes you might lose the full effectiveness of your traits or whatever, but that's not even half as punishing as locking streak and cloak from the bars of Sorcs and NBs.

Can’t forget that you lose mist form too, all because those pesky mag dks and magplars were moving too fast.

Chrlynsch

Swift should be 7.5% per jewelry piece

Qbiken wrote: »

I´ll try Swift on my werewolf. Good luck catching me (or running away)

See that is balanced, werewolves moving at top speed. Yet are comprised by snares due to not having snare removal.

Amdar_Godkiller

Swift should be 7.5% per jewelry piece

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

airilie

Swift is fine as is

It seems like a lot of players jumped on the swift meta and don't know how to use it to their advantage, so they're really just missing out on stats and are weaker now. That said, swift is definitely strong if you know how to use it, but I don't think it's overtuned.

technohic

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

It's incredibly OP., but until last night, I would have said it's pretty well balanced, but that was before a magblade with full swift Benny HIll'd like 7 of us for 30 minutes at Castle Faregyl. I think 8% is ideal.

Or they could keep it as is and revert the changes that were made to detection pots, that allow players to see when they are being used. Cloak + 3 swift is just kind of ridiculous.

This sounds like more of an issue of 7 guys feeling compelled to chase one guy around for 30 minutes. Dont get me wrong; I want to kill the *** to, but I start to realize its not very productive.

WreckfulAbandon

Swift should be 7.5% per jewelry piece

Morgul667 wrote: »

Its fine stop the nerfs

As a sorc/templar main, I know what it feels like to be nerfed and don't like calling for them. But there is a clear strain in this thread of people being frustrated by "Elder Swift Online." Been rocking Swift since week 1 of Summerset and waited this long to say something about it. Hitboxes are already wonky and 2 Swiftys fighting each other would be comical if not for the implications for all non-Swift users.

@Joy_Division
I think Steed is fine because the Movement Speed buff of 5% should be a meaningful tradeoff; that's to say it should be a serious sacrifice to increase your base movement speed by even a small amount because of the enormous tactical advantages that confers. 10% base movement speed is incredibly strong and remember Jailbreaker is a 5 pc. I am now officially convinced that 10% movement speed for ~900 resources is not balanced.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´ll try Swift on my werewolf. Good luck catching me (or running away)

See that is balanced, werewolves moving at top speed. Yet are comprised by snares due to not having snare removal.

Barkskin + Warden is a good combo. Probably got that from one of you 2 in the massive PvP werewolf thread

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I'd rather see swift reduce the effect of snares instead.

This is a pretty solid idea. Or a little of both.

I like the little of both idea as well.

_Ahala_

Swift is fine as is

If we are gonna nerf swift then we need to nerf snares too... major 30% and minor 10% ensnare to counteract major and minor expedition would be fair... but considering that most snares are easily accessible and enough to negate major and minor expedition combined and then some, swift should stay as is so that kitting builds can exist on non sorcs and non nbs

montiferus

HankTwo wrote: »

I'd rather see swift reduce the effect of snares instead.

That would be amazing.

_Ahala_

Swift is fine as is

Additive snare removal like the ranger set or multiplicative snare removal like the warden passive?

Is the warden snare reduction passive still multiplicative this patch? If so it should be made additive to buff magden cause stamden runs shuffle or forward momentum anyways

RajinPVP

Swift is fine as is

Hmm .... so less (Something) for more mobility or more (something) for less mobility.. seems pefectly balance to me..

I dont want ZOS nerfing anything tbh... coz they dont have middle ground when it comes to adjustment.. its either usefull or useless when they touch anything.

Seems like someone having problem chasing someone.. so many counter to this like for example.. “ gap closers” or “snares” or light attack etc.. i mean come on.. look at some WW build with 3swifts.. snares will still fu*k them up coz the inablity to purge or get an immunity to snares.

HankTwo

Option 4 is the worst but I'm not suing

To clear things up: with a reduction of the effect of snares I mean a percentage based one. Maybe something like 25% would be good? This would mean that with 3 gold swift jewelry a 60% snare would only reduce the movement speed by 15%. I don't see any reason why swift should further buff speed builds. Instead this would help magicka builds that have problems with snares.

A little bit of both could be something like 5% extra speed and a 10 to 15% reduction of snares maybe?