Magplar PvP

Joy_Division

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Haven't had a ton of time to PvP since patch but I have experimented with a few combinations. Couple things I noticed...

War Maiden, Axiom and Pirate Skeleton in light armor is VASTLY better than any combination of damage sets plus heavy armor.

The only comparable build I found (but more for survivability and disruption) is Troll King with War Maiden and Axiom.

I do not know why so many templars are fascinated by War Maiden. Breath of Life is probably the most important skill on your bar and that set does nothing for it.

Every single one of those +400 spell damage to X types damages sets are only marginally better than Julianos for that specific set of damage and a lot worse in everything else.

Brutusmax1mus

Joy_Division wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Haven't had a ton of time to PvP since patch but I have experimented with a few combinations. Couple things I noticed...

War Maiden, Axiom and Pirate Skeleton in light armor is VASTLY better than any combination of damage sets plus heavy armor.

The only comparable build I found (but more for survivability and disruption) is Troll King with War Maiden and Axiom.

I do not know why so many templars are fascinated by War Maiden. Breath of Life is probably the most important skill on your bar and that set does nothing for it.

Every single one of those +400 spell damage to X types damages sets are only marginally better than Julianos for that specific set of damage and a lot worse in everything else.

I agree with you, but, marginally better can be the difference in success vs failure in certain aspects of the game. Like ganking with dark flare. They may also be zerging, where why wouldn't you go full damage if you're ranged right??

Synozeer

Joy_Division wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Haven't had a ton of time to PvP since patch but I have experimented with a few combinations. Couple things I noticed...

War Maiden, Axiom and Pirate Skeleton in light armor is VASTLY better than any combination of damage sets plus heavy armor.

The only comparable build I found (but more for survivability and disruption) is Troll King with War Maiden and Axiom.

I do not know why so many templars are fascinated by War Maiden. Breath of Life is probably the most important skill on your bar and that set does nothing for it.

Every single one of those +400 spell damage to X types damages sets are only marginally better than Julianos for that specific set of damage and a lot worse in everything else.

War Maiden has a spell damage trait on it, so effectively it only has 171 less spell damage for healing (and non-magic spells), but an additional 229 spell damage for most of your attacks compared to Hundings. It's pretty well balanced in comparison, but you can front bar War Maiden (unlike Hundings which you'd want on both bars).

Minno

Synozeer wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Haven't had a ton of time to PvP since patch but I have experimented with a few combinations. Couple things I noticed...

War Maiden, Axiom and Pirate Skeleton in light armor is VASTLY better than any combination of damage sets plus heavy armor.

The only comparable build I found (but more for survivability and disruption) is Troll King with War Maiden and Axiom.

I do not know why so many templars are fascinated by War Maiden. Breath of Life is probably the most important skill on your bar and that set does nothing for it.

Every single one of those +400 spell damage to X types damages sets are only marginally better than Julianos for that specific set of damage and a lot worse in everything else.

War Maiden has a spell damage trait on it, so effectively it only has 171 less spell damage for healing (and non-magic spells), but an additional 229 spell damage for most of your attacks compared to Hundings. It's pretty well balanced in comparison, but you can front bar War Maiden (unlike Hundings which you'd want on both bars).

This was my understanding of the set as well.

worsttankever

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster stop talking, link a build and let me post a poll comparing what you run to what a meta Magplar looks like. Let the people decide

Lex, who appointed you forum boss? Personally I’ve found Doom’s comments insightful and creative. I’d rather a unique constructive opinion than “the expert” telling others to shut it.

Datolite

Joy_Division wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Haven't had a ton of time to PvP since patch but I have experimented with a few combinations. Couple things I noticed...

War Maiden, Axiom and Pirate Skeleton in light armor is VASTLY better than any combination of damage sets plus heavy armor.

The only comparable build I found (but more for survivability and disruption) is Troll King with War Maiden and Axiom.

I do not know why so many templars are fascinated by War Maiden. Breath of Life is probably the most important skill on your bar and that set does nothing for it.

Every single one of those +400 spell damage to X types damages sets are only marginally better than Julianos for that specific set of damage and a lot worse in everything else.

You still get a piece spell damage bonus so it isn't exactly useless to BoL. Also with Axiom I'm not too worried about the heals, that bonus directly buffs BoL. Aside from BoL and Reflective Light (which I would only use for Skoria procs if I was wearing it, because the Maj Prophecy duration is useless) War Maiden buffs every magplar skill. We are 90% magic damage. I do enough DPS with this combo that I don't even need an ult (I use Undo for the resources and CC break). So to answer your question War Maiden is just a solid choice for damage.

Joy_Division

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if you're weaving, those light attacks aren't being amped either.

Waffennacht

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if your weaving, those light attacks are being amped either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the other sets have x2 crit, which in this meta is subpar for regen, dmg, or max stat?

So while the buff isn't unique, you're giving up like 2% crit for the spell damage, which is significantly better in PvP

Plus, that ... What... 500-1k additional heal isn't gonna make a difference to burst damage

CatchMeTrolling

There’s better sets to slot than war maiden. It has some usefulness but dps wise there’s better sets and since dps & your heals go together it’s not worth it. I’d rather slot spinners, julianos, overwhelming, bsw and even axiom etc.

I used it briefly and couldn’t see why anyone would seriously use that. War maiden sounds good on paper but subpar in practice, especially solo.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if your weaving, those light attacks are being amped either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the other sets have x2 crit, which in this meta is subpar for regen, dmg, or max stat?

So while the buff isn't unique, you're giving up like 2% crit for the spell damage, which is significantly better in PvP

Plus, that ... What... 500-1k additional heal isn't gonna make a difference to burst damage

That is also the main reason to swap axiom for war maiden. Mending has more of an influence on your healing output than specific sets, based on the tooltip heal.

Crit chance also boosts your heals too, but only at a 50% modifier but that is the reason to run crit. And Templar can reach 70-80% crit dmg in CP, which requires 4620-5280 CR to negate fully; something most builds will not be able to run.

Stamplar running medium benefits greatly from crit chance offensively and defensively.

Joy_Division

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if your weaving, those light attacks are being amped either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the other sets have x2 crit, which in this meta is subpar for regen, dmg, or max stat?

So while the buff isn't unique, you're giving up like 2% crit for the spell damage, which is significantly better in PvP

Plus, that ... What... 500-1k additional heal isn't gonna make a difference to burst damage

At this point, people can choose to heed my advice or not. What I said was factual and I know that for my gameplay, I keep up Reflective Light, I am always weaving in light attacks, and that crit absolutely matters regardless of what is perceived of as "meta."

Rohamad_Ali

I agree with Joy . Perceived meta doesn't mesh with personal experience . Keeping up reflective light procs Skoria as do jabs . The ability to spam more dps out weighs increased spell power over crit values .

Lexxypwns

Nobody (relevant) is saying crit doesn’t matter, just that it’s less valuable than in a PVE environment.

However, I agree with @Joy_Division when it comes to not overvaluing sets which don’t increase your healing on a class where you’re so very healing reliant. I mean, 6% crit chance is a 3-5% increase in healing and that’s nothing to disregard and then you add in the extra spell damage and it’s a pretty clear choice.

Unless I’m running a proc set I personally prefer to run a sustain based setup that lets me use 3x Spell damage glyphs since that is tons of damage and healing. It’s no good running 2x damage 5pc(unless they’re procs) if you then need to run 3x sustain glyphs and atro.

Ariades_swe

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if your weaving, those light attacks are being amped either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the other sets have x2 crit, which in this meta is subpar for regen, dmg, or max stat?

So while the buff isn't unique, you're giving up like 2% crit for the spell damage, which is significantly better in PvP

Plus, that ... What... 500-1k additional heal isn't gonna make a difference to burst damage

At this point, people can choose to heed my advice or not. What I said was factual and I know that for my gameplay, I keep up Reflective Light, I am always weaving in light attacks, and that crit absolutely matters regardless of what is perceived of as "meta."

I'm sitting at a 1.9 critmodifier on my magplar
so I agree, at least for me crit is very important.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK for those of you who like the set, but the 4th armor bonus of War Maiden is not a unique bonus the set possesses above and beyond the other sets, it replaces another bonus you could have had instead.

And if your weaving, those light attacks are being amped either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the other sets have x2 crit, which in this meta is subpar for regen, dmg, or max stat?

So while the buff isn't unique, you're giving up like 2% crit for the spell damage, which is significantly better in PvP

Plus, that ... What... 500-1k additional heal isn't gonna make a difference to burst damage

At this point, people can choose to heed my advice or not. What I said was factual and I know that for my gameplay, I keep up Reflective Light, I am always weaving in light attacks, and that crit absolutely matters regardless of what is perceived of as "meta."

I'm sitting at a 1.9 critmodifier on my magplar
so I agree, at least for me crit is very important.

100% agreed...

For me, Spell Crit is indispensable; when combined with a High Crit Modifier, it makes your damage and heals beastly...

I won't run anything less than 50% Spell Crit; ideally I want 60% or greater...

UppGRAYxDD

I’m just giddy waiting to get my mitts on that Balorgh monster set...EotS and bat bomplar might make a comeback!

TheDoomsdayMonster

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

There’s better sets to slot than war maiden. It has some usefulness but dps wise there’s better sets and since dps & your heals go together it’s not worth it. I’d rather slot spinners, julianos, overwhelming, bsw and even axiom etc.

I used it briefly and couldn’t see why anyone would seriously use that. War maiden sounds good on paper but subpar in practice, especially solo.

Better sets than War Maiden? Depends on what you want to do...


I have a Glass Canon build that consists of:

Slimeclaw x2...
Vampire Lord x5...
War Maiden x5...
Green single stat food (Max Magicka)...


When I'm like this (60% Spell Crit and 11k Spell Penetration on top of this), Devouring Swarm hits like a 10 Megaton H-Bomb...

When I'm like this, I've seen Vamp Drain do 4-5k damage per tick...it hits like a Zaan proc.


So to conclude, other sets might outperform War Maiden in some ways, but not if your primary focus is DPS...

Waffennacht

Eh, I just come from a highly competitive background where changing your build to maximize effectiveness against the most common enemy.

But that's just me

VirtualElizabeth

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Nobody (relevant) is saying crit doesn’t matter, just that it’s less valuable than in a PVE environment.

However, I agree with @Joy_Division when it comes to not overvaluing sets which don’t increase your healing on a class where you’re so very healing reliant. I mean, 6% crit chance is a 3-5% increase in healing and that’s nothing to disregard and then you add in the extra spell damage and it’s a pretty clear choice.

Unless I’m running a proc set I personally prefer to run a sustain based setup that lets me use 3x Spell damage glyphs since that is tons of damage and healing. It’s no good running 2x damage 5pc(unless they’re procs) if you then need to run 3x sustain glyphs and atro.

My brain is tired and its been a while since I really focused on my templar: Would you say in PVP, stacking crit then damage is more successfull? It Impacts healing to a greater degree? 'Splain to me, Lucy.

Lexxypwns

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Nobody (relevant) is saying crit doesn’t matter, just that it’s less valuable than in a PVE environment.

However, I agree with @Joy_Division when it comes to not overvaluing sets which don’t increase your healing on a class where you’re so very healing reliant. I mean, 6% crit chance is a 3-5% increase in healing and that’s nothing to disregard and then you add in the extra spell damage and it’s a pretty clear choice.

Unless I’m running a proc set I personally prefer to run a sustain based setup that lets me use 3x Spell damage glyphs since that is tons of damage and healing. It’s no good running 2x damage 5pc(unless they’re procs) if you then need to run 3x sustain glyphs and atro.

My brain is tired and its been a while since I really focused on my templar: Would you say in PVP, stacking crit then damage is more successfull? It Impacts healing to a greater degree? 'Splain to me, Lucy.

Well, I think crit is less valuable than max stats/Spell damage from damage perspective. But since there is no impen reducing your crit healing it does have more relative value on that side of the equation. When combining 3-6% extra crit with a 5pc that increases your heals then the overall difference in your heals is quite significant compared to a 5pc like maiden/Spinners/Surge.

However, crit isn’t worthless at all since nothing gives higher spike damage or healing than a crit. People write sets off because of crit bonuses when in actuality they’re just slightly less valuable. Most people run 1.7+ CHD and you rarely encounter people with more than 40% crit resist, which means you can expect 30%+ bonus damage on a crit. If you’re using Race against time then you’ll probably have 1.9CHD like @Ariades_swe mentioned and that’s a 50%+ damage increase which can allow some big time spike damage.

There’s always a good argument for adding in proc set damage though since it changes how a build plays totally. Especially Surge, since it has arguably the best 2-4pc in the game and lets you blend offense and defense phases more easily.

Edit: Spike damage is particularly dangerous on Magplar builds because they generally rely on pressure and you account for that when fighting against them, their burst window will start a little lower and if you can make sure the PL explosion isn’t large they can’t punish you too hard. As a result, if you can apply sudden spike damage via crits(or Skoria, that’s why so many Templars use it) then you can take someone who thought they were outside your burst range and get a quick kill.

Brutusmax1mus

Crit is also offensively hard countered by shields, main reason i look to other stats.

casparian

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Crit is also offensively hard countered by shields, main reason i look to other stats.

Knocking people's shields off is never the hard part (to me at least). It's finishing them off before they can recover and shield up again. Crit helps tremendously with that part.

VirtualElizabeth

@Lexxypwns @Brutusmax1mus so for a PVP templar, stacking damage is still more advantageous than stacking crit for more standard game play. Now, if I decide to run as a healer in a group, running a crit set like Julianos and maybe like Sanctuary would be more effective in that role.

I get what @Joy_Division is saying about War Maiden - that crit stat is just kind of "meh" compared to other crit heavy sets. Plus it takes away spell damage too.

Lexxypwns

casparian wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Crit is also offensively hard countered by shields, main reason i look to other stats.

Knocking people's shields off is never the hard part (to me at least). It's finishing them off before they can recover and shield up again. Crit helps tremendously with that part.

This is true.

It’s also true that building for high crit is inefficient from a damage dealing standpoint and that’s even more true when using proc sets, which cannot crit. This is why Shackle+Amber shines as an all around option to me, it’ll get you to 40% crit and gives you excellent stats.

Mr_Nobody

Tbh you can build either, both war maidens and without, it just depends how you play it. Templar is in a such a crappy spot that you literally need a completely different build for everything you do in PvP. Like... if you go with a small group, build A is the best; If you go with a bigger/full group - builds B/C/D are the best; If you solo - another 5 different builds for different styles/types can be effective.

It is super hard to pick 1, as an all rounder, you can go with the usual sustain/resource build and be a jack of all, as peeps mentioned here, but not be super good at anything either. Cookie cutters, is what I call them. You will surely kill a few megabads every now and then, but dont expect to kill anyone at least half competent with a such build. Everything comes at cost.

If you want to kill stuff consistently alone - you got to sacrifice much and go all deep, meaning close to non existent mag rss regens combined with 3 Swift. Thats the current way to go.

And believe me, I have played every different build that you can equip on a magplar, even if its yours very hidden and secret set combination. I have done it. I have done it so much that I dont have any space left for different sets on 7 dummy characters and a full bank of 260 slots.

Datthaw

Crit is always sidelined in my eyes for pvp (not saying is useless, it's why we all build impen and crit cp) but when it comes to me making a build I get what I get. Say I make a heavy armor build, crit is gonna be low. I'm not gonna throw on like juli or mothers sorrow to compensate for lack of crit because there goes sustain and stat pools. If I want to crit I'm just gonna throw on light and use what the armor passive gives me.

On a side note how do yall build a support magplar with snb/resto. I'm trying to get one setup for my guild group we are gonna try and run a tighter group that synergies with harmony instead of just pugging out. What I was gonna bring is 5pc trans snb and jewels (1 block, 1 regen, 1 spell power?), 5 light fort brass, TK, and vma resto back bar. I have never really gone full utility because I'm normally solo and have to kill people. So I'm not really sure how to get the most out of this build.

ledesertcroit

@Mr_Nobody
So what build would you recommend with the three Swift?

Mr_Nobody

ledesertcroit wrote: »

@Mr_Nobody
So what build would you recommend with the three Swift?

3 swift, again, depends on your playstyle and what you like. Considering you will put everything into spell damage - running Pirate Skeleton and 2 light armor dps sets is what you want.

You can choose between the following:

O Surge, Rattlecage (extra spell slot, I use it for meditate), War Maidens, Julianos, Riposte (doesnt work too well with Pirate Skeleton though), Hist, Axiom, Bahrahas curse (lol, its actually good with Sweeps), the new Cyrodiil's Light (kickass good with beam and meditate equipped) and such.

Get at least 1 set that actually does something interesting and unique dps/control/debuff/buff wise.

ledesertcroit

As for myself, I think I have quite a standard history with my Magplar.
As a PVP noob, I started building super defensive. And I could not kill anything.
So I started using Light armor, and proc sets. And it was a little better.
I was quite happy for a while with OWSurge, Skorya, and Riposte. Then I switched Riposte for Trans, and back barred it for front Willpower. I did not die that much more.
But my BG scores were still a lot of assists, and quite few kills. (I play no-cp, and almost only BGs, as all my cp on this character is for heals in PVE).
Seeing the Jesus beam buff, I went for Soulshine and War Maiden (5L2H), front-barred a Fire Staff, and concentrated on single target. And I do not die that much more (not at all in fact), but I score much more kills.And no, I'm not zerg-surfing in BGs, and often melee; sweeps (following Toppling) hit quite hard.
In fact, while getting gud, I feel I need less and less defence. Still love SnB backbar though.
If the RNGesus is kind enough to grant me a Slimecraw Light Shoulder, I might go with that (and be proud of myself for no-proc-sets awesomeness lol).

I'm still super slow and often cornered in blockcasting (I refuse to Vamp Up), and Total Dark is often my only window to turn things around. I also have trouble landing Sweeps on fast targets (those have to eat a Soul Assault in their dodging face haha).
Which is why I'm interested in the Swift idea, although I'm aware this will not go well with Soulshine/War Maiden lol (my sustain, already abysmal, coming from jewellery.)

Mr_Nobody

ledesertcroit wrote: »

As for myself, I think I have quite a standard history with my Magplar.
As a PVP noob, I started building super defensive. And I could not kill anything.
So I started using Light armor, and proc sets. And it was a little better.
I was quite happy for a while with OWSurge, Skorya, and Riposte. Then I switched Riposte for Trans, and back barred it for front Willpower. I did not die that much more.
But my BG scores were still a lot of assists, and quite few kills. (I play no-cp, and almost only BGs, as all my cp on this character is for heals in PVE).
Seeing the Jesus beam buff, I went for Soulshine and War Maiden (5L2H), front-barred a Fire Staff, and concentrated on single target. And I do not die that much more (not at all in fact), but I score much more kills.And no, I'm not zerg-surfing in BGs, and often melee; sweeps (following Toppling) hit quite hard.
In fact, while getting gud, I feel I need less and less defence. Still love SnB backbar though.
If the RNGesus is kind enough to grant me a Slimecraw Light Shoulder, I might go with that (and be proud of myself for no-proc-sets awesomeness lol).

I'm still super slow and often cornered in blockcasting (I refuse to Vamp Up), and Total Dark is often my only window to turn things around. I also have trouble landing Sweeps on fast targets (those have to eat a Soul Assault in their dodging face haha).
Which is why I'm interested in the Swift idea, although I'm aware this will not go well with Soulshine/War Maiden lol (my sustain, already abysmal, coming from jewellery.)

Right, considering Soul Shine - i find it only be effective on a gank build. Or some troll melee magplar who spams flares... lol. Could work with 3 swift though.