More transparency about dmg in dungeon?

Bucky Balls

No, don’t add meter

Absolutely not - it existed before and was removed for the exact reason it would be (ab)used for if re-introduced: to berate and otherwise cause grief to other players.

Guppet

Yes, add dps % meter

DamenAJ wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

I think it could work well. But only if the only dps you see is your own.

If you see other people’s its going to be abused.

Something like

Your DPS is currently 15,000. Overall group DPS is 50,000. 30% of group dps.

Maybe have it as a command you type. Like /current dps.

No more than that.

If your carrying you’ll know. If your terrible you’ll know. But you’ll never know anyone else’s figures.

What you're talking about exists as an addon on PC (Combat metrics), what people here are looking for is one to see everyone elses dps.

It'd be nice to stick something like combat metrics into the game, so that console users can use it, but, again, I abstained from voting on seeing everyones DPS, because it leads to a lot of toxicity.

Consoles don’t have add ons. They need this as base functionality.

People need to remember that PC is less than half the player base. Admittedly is most of the forums.

Seeing other people’s will never happen, the only purpose it will serve is to be abused. If you know your own, you already know if others are not pulling their weight.

I’d change my vote to abstain if I could lol.

Anotherone773

No, don’t add meter

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

TheGr8David wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

It would reduce the toxicity of DPS who don't pull their weight for sure, but it would re-introduce another type of toxic player.

The DPS who believe their DPS should be the standard by which all other DPS are measured, and we would have a repeat of players being excluded from a majority of game content for not being able to pull max numbers.

Anyone else remember nightblades being excluded from content post-Craglorn because they couldn't hit the stupid high numbers DKs could at the time?

Personally I would also love to know how many of those 50K+ DPS can actually perform at that level too. I am console, so maybe PC can see that. Either way on console it would be interesting to know. Of course I main a tank its all pretty useless info to me anyway.
I just say this because the best runs are with Flawless builds, they are survivalist rather than DPS "garden tool", they bother to learn mechanics, and in general are just way less toxic IMO

Not very many. Its a rare day i encounter someone who can pull above 30k consistently on bosses. Dummy parses dont translate to real combat situations. Just because you can cheese a dummy in a perfect setting with nothing else going on doesnt make you really good. Sort of like an expert target shooter doesnt always make a good sniper.

Its why i dont bother with dummies outside of comparison tests and what not. Its a complete waste of time.

Xerikten

been playing these online mmos for over 15 years and found a lot of misuse of this type of meter in many games and among gamers.

while knowing what others are contributing is something nice to know, many of YOU lack the compassion to help those that are below what is minimally needed. what happens is a brief "you sux" and a kick from group. most of you will not take said players under your wing and help them out.

I have made many many gaming friends by just helping them out and not ignoring them. there is a human being controlling that toon: some are new to these games and some just need a little guidance. like for gods sake don't play in first person so you can see the red circles.


the main problem I see with group dps meters is some arbitrary dps number someone picks out of mid air. if you don't hit it you are dropped. usually these numbers are unattainable without the gear that drops from that level or higher. it is assumed you have the post level cap abilities already- cp in this game, aa's or ascension in others. so that isn't a issue unless you are in a pvp build in pve. but I will not go there now.

Facefister

Yes, add dps % meter

"Dude, he does 45k dps during the boss fight!"
"BUT, does he know the boss mechanics?"

Ofcourse he does, that's the reason why he pulls off 45k and you only 12k. Call me toxic how much you want. A dps meter will help to pinpoint the issues like "why does the boss go enrage?" or "why do we have a second add while the other one still lives?"

You can easily pinpoint a tank failure and you also can easily pinpoint a healer failure. But when it comes to dd failure, you'll have to do detective work, which annoys literally everyone.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

ArchMikem wrote: »

If the base game had a feature to tell the group the exact DPS of every member during a fight, players would stop kicking others based on a rough perception of how the fight is going, and instead use the numbers to do it, and they'd pick a base number for convenience. If any player that doesn't pull 25k+ will get kicked, no buts. Even if the player did 23k, they'll still get kicked cause they're still technically not good enough for the others.

At least now, if the fight isn't burned but the DPS still does consistent damage and stays alive/does mechanics, their actual parse doesn't matter and the group will continue. But if you give players a way to know exact numbers, there will be much more kicking and then Dungeon Pledges will never get done cause not everyone is pulling god tier deeps.

Much more kicking is good. The current system, tank who lose taunt often, who miss block 1shot heavy attack get kicked. Healer who can’t keep tank alive get kicked (this can be due to newbie tank). And you tell me dd should not be judged at all? This is only making tank and healer underprivileged.

Don’t say short que, if healer and tank need to reque rather than kick and finish. Short que give tank and healer little benefit.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

sdtlc wrote: »

If you are running with someone considered friend/partner, they mostly will share their number, if not ...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Don't use this argument for you're cause, you simply want to either brag about your performance or blame the other dd for failing.

Yes, i do want to blame at least 1 of the dd for failing when dps checks were not met. The meter can help me pin point which one. So i do not mistakenly kick the better player.

DocFrost72

Don’t know / care

I read through the comments, and I can assure you that there is gunna be some good old fashion toxicity.

"If you don't want this, you are a no dps scrub who wants a carry!"

"If you want this, you want to intimidate and exclude people with your epeen!"

I guess the days of civil discourse and amicable disagreement are long gone. This is why I don't follow politics.

Y'all, it's a game. People obsessed with their dps, exclusive people, obnoxious people who want a carry, and 2k dps ice staff builds all exist for sure. Can we just not assume someone who disagrees is a bad person?

On topic: idgaf, never made a toon below 20k dps once I got to a certain point in my gametime, and in not bringing that toon to random vets.

Soella

Yes, add dps % meter

Yes, we need it - but not everywhere. Normal dungeons are not DPS check, and supposed to be available to everyone. Pretty much it is upper level where "play as you want" is acceptable and should not be thrown upon.

Veteran content is for "veterans" - people who understand what they are doing and supposedly care to improve their game. I would love if ZOS will draw this line more clear - certification to be accepted in veteran queue and damage meter would be good addition.

Agenericname

No, don’t add meter

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

So as of right now it looks like 35% of people want you to know they are doing DPS, and 55% of people don’t want you to know they are not doing any DPS. That’s actually not a bad ratio compared to a typical group finder group.

Broad assumptions are likely why so many are against it.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

Perhaps it would quell the types you speak of, but it wouldn't silence the noise. In a recent thread a member made the remark that X DPS is in the lowest percentile of DPS as a justification for a kick. The issue with that is that if there was a requirement for X DPS in Y content, without Y changing, the requirement for X would remain static.

That's not always happening. The expectations are increasing while the requirements remain roughly the same. At that point it becomes more of an issue of living up to some one else's expectations than actually being able to clear the content.

It's a useful tool and I wish that we had access to it, but the potential for abuse in dungeon finder is so high that it would likely revert to what it was when it was taken away. I would find it extremely useful in groups outside of dungeon finder.

Chrysa1is

No, don’t add meter

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

Chrysa1is wrote: »

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

So what is the correct threshold of not enough damage? Should you not kick a person who is 10k just because another guy is carrying by doing 50k? Is that fair?

DocFrost72

Don’t know / care

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

So what is the correct threshold of not enough damage? Should you not kick a person who is 10k just because another guy is carrying by doing 50k? Is that fair?

If the requirement to finish the dungeon is 20k dps (group) and you pull 10.1k dps, it is my belief that you are pulling your weight. You may well disagree.

Grabmoore

No, don’t add meter

Facefister wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Some players are too obsessed with numbers.

Those numbers decide whether you're able to complete or fail the ecounter. Witchcraft!

No they are not. There are next to no damage checks in this game. The only I could think of are trial bosses.

Implementing percentages only adds toxicity. People already can share their numbers via add ons (console doesn't matter anyways). I do 45k+ on magicka and still don't want this added. It's just bad and we should be happy to live without it.

Sygil05

No, don’t add meter

The only reason I want this is to see where I stand in relation to other people in my groups, but I had to vote no to this because I think it would become a metric used against newer or less skilled players. Currently, they can slip by in a good group, get experience, and potentially improve, but my worry is they would be excluded from these opportunities if this information were readily available.

AhPook_Is_Here

No, don’t add meter

A mod that people can volunteer data to should be sufficient. For vet dungeons these sorts of metrics aren't important, only really for trials, and then you can leave it to that sub-culture to determine if a mod is mandatory for participation.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

So what is the correct threshold of not enough damage? Should you not kick a person who is 10k just because another guy is carrying by doing 50k? Is that fair?

If the requirement to finish the dungeon is 20k dps (group) and you pull 10.1k dps, it is my belief that you are pulling your weight. You may well disagree.

What if the requirement is 60k, would you kick 10k player when someone is doing 50k?

WrathOfInnos

Yes, add dps % meter

From what I’ve seen, most people have never used any type of DPS meter or add on. A lot seem to assume they are doing great without any real information available in game. Just showing fight stats in the vanilla game (even if they are not shown to group members) would go a long way to motivate improvement, especially for consoles that have no way of doing this.

That being said, I run combat metrics, can already see pretty accurately what DPS others are pulling, and NEVER kick anyone for low DPS. Honestly one DPS and one light attack spammer are enough to get through any dungeon.

What I don’t understand is the ostrich syndrome when it comes to DPS. Many seem to actively avoid seeing data, and want to prevent others from this information as well.

I think something like the recap at the end of Battlegrounds would be very helpful for dungeons. Imagine what it would be like if that that screen was removed to “protect people’s privacy” or “not hurt people’s feelings”, and all 3 teams got to be winners every time. That would certainly remove any incentive to improve.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

Grabmoore wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Some players are too obsessed with numbers.

Those numbers decide whether you're able to complete or fail the ecounter. Witchcraft!

No they are not. There are next to no damage checks in this game. The only I could think of are trial bosses.

Implementing percentages only adds toxicity. People already can share their numbers via add ons (console doesn't matter anyways). I do 45k+ on magicka and still don't want this added. It's just bad and we should be happy to live without it.

You are supporting denying information to the tank and healer. And yes there are lots of dps checks, just most can be done with a 40k group dps. You know who is doing what dmg don’t mean tank and healer have a clue. Keep tank and healer in the dark is not fair. If tank and healer are getting judged on, so should all the dd.

idk

Zos will not open up that information to the API. Basically Zos is not about to open up information about your character that is not already available and they have proven that multiple times since before the game launched.

This has been done before and it required an opt in system. Why it no longer exists may be another reason this will not happen. One would probably need to speak with @Atropos to understand Zos' stance since I believe it was only his add-on that made this happen.

FinneganFroth

No, don’t add meter

Didn't Neverwinter do this? I remember it as a huge point of contention.

Aeslief

The only DPS I can control is my own.

I use CMX to analyze my performance and to help me improve because I care about pulling my weight, which means I can usually tell how the other DD is doing compared to me too. I would be happy to see a DPS information module similar to CMX added to the base game which helps players analyze their own performance, especially against expectations for the content level.

But ZOS has already explicitly stated that there will never be a group DPS meter, specifically because they do not want to hand players tools that they know will be used to exclude anyone from group content.

Agenericname

No, don’t add meter

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

From what I’ve seen, most people have never used any type of DPS meter or add on. A lot seem to assume they are doing great without any real information available in game. Just showing fight stats in the vanilla game (even if they are not shown to group members) would go a long way to motivate improvement, especially for consoles that have no way of doing this.

That being said, I run combat metrics, can already see pretty accurately what DPS others are pulling, and NEVER kick anyone for low DPS. Honestly one DPS and one light attack spammer are enough to get through any dungeon.

What I don’t understand is the ostrich syndrome when it comes to DPS. Many seem to actively avoid seeing data, and want to prevent others from this information as well.

I think something like the recap at the end of Battlegrounds would be very helpful for dungeons. Imagine what it would be like if that that screen was removed to “protect people’s privacy” or “not hurt people’s feelings”, and all 3 teams got to be winners every time. That would certainly remove any incentive to improve.

I would like to see an in-game meter, I draw the line at it being public though, at least with PUGs.

It would indeed quantify the damage output for players that may not otherwise have access to that information, but it doesn't give it any relative value. In a way it's like painting over a pothole. While leveling and in most of the overland content, the game really doesn't present a significant challenge in ways that reinforce the need for higher damage output or certain mechanics.

I do think that some would benefit from it. I'm not sure that it would significantly close the gap between the lower dps and higher dps echelons. There are a lot of folks that simply aren't on the forums and there are certain aspects of DPS that can only be obtained through other players.

If simply adding an in-game meter for personal use were an option i would vote for it, but the OP specifically states the intended use is to see other's numbers.

Ragebull

No, don’t add meter

We need to be doing things to make the community less toxic, not more

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

Ragebull wrote: »

We need to be doing things to make the community less toxic, not more

Puting blind fold over the eyes of tank of healer, denying them the rights to know the performance of the dd, while the dd freely judge tank and healer. I call that double standard and cause toxicity.

LadyNalcarya

Yes, add dps % meter

Ragebull wrote: »

We need to be doing things to make the community less toxic, not more

But it will make the community less toxic.
Cp elitism, for example, only exists because its the only one visible measure. And if a group keeps wiping and there is one cp 300 dd and one cp 900, which one is more likely to get kicked, regardless of their actual performance? With a dps meter you can prove you can pull your weight as a low cp player.
The second issue is the lack of tanks and healers in group finder. There are multiple reasons for that, and toxic low dps dds is one of them. So many people on this forum claim that skilled players are toxic... But my own experience of playing with both pugs and premade groups begs to differ. I'm a healer, and the most toxicity I've ever encountered in this game came from low dps guys (not "sub 50k", mind you, I mean actually low dps). You know, good old healer blaming and other stuff. I personally think that a huge part of those "oh, but skilled players are toxic!" is nothing more than a projection.

Also lets not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes. So another dd can be super elitist, but he cant kick you without the support of tank and healer.

Strider__Roshin

Yes, add dps % meter

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Jerkling

No, don’t add meter

would also be a great way for ppl to be a d*ck about something so very unimportant.

Smasherx74

Yes, add dps % meter

disintegr8 wrote: »

The only issue in a group is whether the group can get the job done and you do not need to know what damage everyone else is doing.

I would see this as given people another excuse to harass and kick people who don;t live up to your expectations. I'd also suggest that there would be people who will question your ability - only because they think you could/should do more.

So let's say theres a CP400, and then there a Max CP. You're healer or tank, you're experienced, you can tell one of the DPS isn't outputting enough damage and the other one is carrying him. So you boot the CP400, because he's lower CP, then it turns out that max CP guy is the one who wasn't doing the damage.

In this case, it would have saved the person actually doing damage from being booted had the group known whos doing what.

Drdeath20

Yes, add dps % meter

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps