More transparency about dmg in dungeon?

TheGr8David

No, don’t add meter

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

It would reduce the toxicity of DPS who don't pull their weight for sure, but it would re-introduce another type of toxic player.

The DPS who believe their DPS should be the standard by which all other DPS are measured, and we would have a repeat of players being excluded from a majority of game content for not being able to pull max numbers.

Anyone else remember nightblades being excluded from content post-Craglorn because they couldn't hit the stupid high numbers DKs could at the time?

Metafae

Yes, add dps % meter

How about instead, if a group fails the same fight three times in a row each player will get a personal report that only they can see giving them statistics about not just damage but a variety of other useful information.

This could be things like:
You have been taking a lot of damage from this enemy ability, try avoid it by doing this instead.
etc..

This way you can get the info about how well you are doing with advice on how to do better, and no one else can see that information, giving the player the choice if they want to share that information with the group. But more importantly, giving practical advice as to how to get better.

I would also like to see a system in place that gives suggested rotations players could be using based off the skills adviser system. So players can practice the suggested rotation on target dummies, and then provide stats with how well they were doing the rotation.

They could also have a tiered system of different suggested rotations based on complexity.

Newer players would be suggested to try simpler rotations at first, but once they master those rotations they will be given suggestions for more complicated rotations that pull better dps.

This is truly what this game needs, a system to actively teach the player base on how to play their character better.

LiberatorSam

Yes, add dps % meter

jabrone77 wrote: »

I think everyone here is missing the overall point ...
This info was available once upon a time.
Zos gave us the ball....and we fumbled it.
It was used to exclude and shame. It led to toxicity.
I also find the pro argument funny. "We can already tell"...ok, why is this needed then?
I'll ask again, if this didn't work before, and Zos had to remove it because it led to toxic behavior, why would they allow it again?

Only the 2 dps (or 8 dps in trials) know how much dps they are doing and able to have a rough guess on how much dps the other dd is/are doing. If you pull 30k and you are doing 50% of group dps, then the other is likely doing 25k dps. In a trial it’s harder to monitor individual performance, generally stam dd should do 12% and mag dd 8%. However, this information is ONLY available to damage dealers, the tank and healer are totally in the dark, all they can see is how much dps the entire group is doing. The suggestion OP made is for tanks and healer because there is an information asymmetry.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Metafae wrote: »

This is truly what this game needs, a system to actively teach the player base on how to play their character better.

What game have you been playing? Did you check the way most people named their characters? And their dresses? The talk in /zone? You wanna teach them? Good luck.

Maura_Neysa

Don’t know / care

TheGr8David wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

It would reduce the toxicity of DPS who don't pull their weight for sure, but it would re-introduce another type of toxic player.

The DPS who believe their DPS should be the standard by which all other DPS are measured, and we would have a repeat of players being excluded from a majority of game content for not being able to pull max numbers.

Anyone else remember nightblades being excluded from content post-Craglorn because they couldn't hit the stupid high numbers DKs could at the time?

Personally I would also love to know how many of those 50K+ DPS can actually perform at that level too. I am console, so maybe PC can see that. Either way on console it would be interesting to know. Of course I main a tank its all pretty useless info to me anyway.
I just say this because the best runs are with Flawless builds, they are survivalist rather than DPS "garden tool", they bother to learn mechanics, and in general are just way less toxic IMO

Metafae

Yes, add dps % meter

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

This is truly what this game needs, a system to actively teach the player base on how to play their character better.

What game have you been playing? Did you check the way most people named their characters? And their dresses? The talk in /zone? You wanna teach them? Good luck.

I see you are jaded. I only made this suggestion because when I first started playing over 3 years ago I had no idea what I was doing. I once subjected a group to my poor healing skills and they were kind enough to let me try.

It wasn't until I joined a guild that was aimed at helping players get better within their roles that I learned what I should be doing. I didn't even know what a taunt was.

There is plenty of room in this game to have an extended tutorial that can help people get better.

EvilCroc

No, don’t add meter

This is private information.

Icy_Waffles

I wish we had a meter. A self meter. Dps can see their dps as they go. Tanks can see damage blocked or healing received? Healers can see healing done?

I agree that a general meter for the entire group would only cause problems but a personal one to glance at would be cool

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

No, don’t add meter

oh god no!!! thus is just another attempt to control players and cause trouble in the game, there is already trouble in the game with BIS peeps are now taking expection in being told what gear and skills to use, iam not even sure this is a real question as the name troll is in op's name

dtsharples

Most guild groups who are hoping to progress will ask for a Target Dummy test before you are allowed to join for the harder trials.
If you aren't reaching say 30k then you won't get an invite - Until you do.

You can then realistically expect for each of your DPS to be doing around 30k, with 8 DPS and some DPS from Tanks + Healers, plus buffs + de-buffs that is around 260k which should get you through most content.

If DPSers want to know if they are pulling their own weight, just check if you are doing 12% of the damage and then you'll know if you are slacking or not.

witchdoctor

No, don’t add meter

Voted no, for one reason: you can damn well bet the only result is DPS doing their damnedest to parse.

Blinders on, and parse, parse, parse!

OP may get his wish and overall DPS will go up. As will soul shard consumption as healers have more DPS succumbing to red.

Mayrael

Yes, add dps % meter

Cry babies in attack. Do not destroy my safety balloon, I want to stay miserable and destroy someone's else pleasure of playing because I refuse to improve.

Ok I can agree that straight DPS meter could be a bit to much, but simple Boolean meter would do the trick to, it would return true if you reach certain DPS level. For normal dungs 5k, for vet 15k, for trials 25k. If someone queues as a DD and constantly fails to reach DPS level he is the same liar as healer who uses rapid regen to heal group.

ArchMikem

No, don’t add meter

If the base game had a feature to tell the group the exact DPS of every member during a fight, players would stop kicking others based on a rough perception of how the fight is going, and instead use the numbers to do it, and they'd pick a base number for convenience. If any player that doesn't pull 25k+ will get kicked, no buts. Even if the player did 23k, they'll still get kicked cause they're still technically not good enough for the others.

At least now, if the fight isn't burned but the DPS still does consistent damage and stays alive/does mechanics, their actual parse doesn't matter and the group will continue. But if you give players a way to know exact numbers, there will be much more kicking and then Dungeon Pledges will never get done cause not everyone is pulling god tier deeps.

sdtlc

No, don’t add meter

If you are running with someone considered friend/partner, they mostly will share their number, if not ...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Don't use this argument for you're cause, you simply want to either brag about your performance or blame the other dd for failing.

ResTandRespeC

Yes, add dps % meter

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

I've always wondered how my dps was compared to my partner...

It would encourage me to work harder.

So ask..

The system was used to grief and harass other players, it's not needed.

The dps your doing in a dummy is much different then the dps you do in a real fight. Dummy test are very helpful as a benchmark as you definitely wont be doing (for example) 45k solo in trial (adjust for group buffs and such) if you cant do it stationary. I get that pc has combat metrics for real time analysis but us console plebs are kinda left out to dry. Whether or not they added the functionality the op wants doesn't really matter much to me as the team i run with would be happy to show screenshots, but the argument against it seems to be the same as the one against adding something similar to combat metrics to console.
It would be nice to be able to compare against my group to see if I, or anyone else needs work/help without all the screenshots and stuff, yes. Whats really important though is getting real skill trackers and raid reports with dps and buff/debuff uptimes. I think It would really help bolster the console raiding community up, instead of some of the beat teams moving to PC.

ResTandRespeC

Yes, add dps % meter

Anotherone773 wrote: »

No we dont need elitists critiquing everyone anymore than they already do...in fact its done way to much now. People should just play the game and stop worrying about being the best at it. You want to be the best at something be the best at something important, not a video game.

Thats kinda mean lol. Who cares if i like being the best i can be in the part of a video game I enjoy. Not everyone who does vet trial leaderboard runs is an a-hole. Just because some people want this doesn't mean they are trying to negatively effect others. There are legitimate uses for this. Lame people will be lame people no matter where you are you in the world, what they do for a living or for fun, and even no matter what type of video game content they like to enjoy

witchdoctor

No, don’t add meter

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

There are legitimate uses for this.

While I 100% agree with your desired outcome ... you just *KNOW* the a-holes will far outweigh the benefits of this.

The rejects out there already initiate votekick with the slimmest hesitation; this will be freaking gasoline on their fire.

Merlin13KAGL

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. Group DPS is the only DPS that matters.
2. You already have a pretty good idea who's doing alright and who needs a bit of help.
3. Every single individual can look at their own Combat Metrics and see the % of the DPS they're doing. 1/8th is a little over 12%. Anything above that is bonus.
4. Place the focus on this and you can forget about people stopping to rez, moving out of the red, interrupts, call outs, or doing much of anything but their rotation.

But you're already aware of all these things.

If you are the tank, most the time you have little clue.

If you're the Raid Lead, you do.

In all but the busiest fights, you have a pretty good feel if things are taking longer than necessary. Things stay up longer, and as a result, people die more.

When people get more comfortable with the mechanics of a particular fight, that's when DPS goes up. They get to focus more on damage and have to focus less on callouts and mechanics. I've seen it happen time and time again.

If you're Raid Lead and the tank, you're not watching what everyone else is doing as much as the boss and the mobs. Generally there's at least one other individual that can, though, be it heals, OT, whatever.

Unless you're trying to world first or leaderboard, #1 still applies. If you fall 1k DPS short on Rakkhat or the Twins, is it because Bob didn't pull 33k instead of 32k, or is it because group DPS was 1k short and still led to a wipe?

Or to take it up a notch, if everyone else in the group is doing 50k, but one person is doing 49k, does that suddenly make them bad? Somehow I doubt it.

And if you are trying to do either of those things, you can simply have your teammates run the appropriate addons and require them to post after fights.

Except for a handful of DPS checks in the game, I'll take a steady but survivable and aware group over a hard hitting, but volatile group any day of the week. One will hit leaderboards sometimes. One will get consistent clears.

As the Raid Lead, part of your job is to identify the issues and help resolve them. Not to be callous,, but if you're the not the Raid Lead, regardless of your role, then frankly, you don't need to know.

LadyNalcarya

Yes, add dps % meter

ArchMikem wrote: »

At least now, if the fight isn't burned but the DPS still does consistent damage and stays alive/does mechanics, their actual parse doesn't matter and the group will continue. But if you give players a way to know exact numbers, there will be much more kicking and then Dungeon Pledges will never get done cause not everyone is pulling god tier deeps.

According to forums, average dps level in group finder groups is very low anyway. So who will kick them? Other low dps dds?
You're trying so hard to make it seem like people set impossible requirements for pugs, but somehow I've never seen it and I've been playing this game since 2015. I used to pug in /z and people were usually kicked if they lied about their experience or were incapable of playing their role, and that happened very rarely. I don't think that group finder pugs are more "elite".

ResTandRespeC

Yes, add dps % meter

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

It's the same reason I wish Overwatch medals were made public. I just love it when someone types "this team sucks" and rage quits, while I have 4/5 gold medals. If you're so good, you would pick up some of the slack. It's the hidden team stats that enable bad players to run their mouths.

OMG i've been trying to explain this forever and can never find the right words! I've been in so many groups where the player running his mouth about other people in the group is the one who is holding the group back. Can't count how many times i've heard someone call out a healer, tank or dps, as being bad (usually trying to kick them) they then rage quit and we clear the content no problem as soon as they leave (or at least when another player takes their place). It these type of people that give the raiding community a bad name .

Prof_Bawbag

redspecter23 wrote: »

I would like a dps meter added, though ZOS has no intention of doing that. It can be helpful to see that you're doing 2500 dps and the other guy is doing 45k. You might think you're doing fine as the mobs are all melting, but actually seeing the numbers is a great wake up call.

An opt in system might work best but would still pose problems with those that feel pressured to opt in. It's not like we don't have dps benchmarks for vet trials anyway. The transparency this would provide could be a benefit.

An opt in system would only serve the same purpose as a mandatory one. People demanding folk have it switched on. That ain't opt in in any shape or form.

witchdoctor

No, don’t add meter

Well, I guess you could just code it to only work in a vet trial.

LadyNalcarya

Yes, add dps % meter

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I would like a dps meter added, though ZOS has no intention of doing that. It can be helpful to see that you're doing 2500 dps and the other guy is doing 45k. You might think you're doing fine as the mobs are all melting, but actually seeing the numbers is a great wake up call.

An opt in system might work best but would still pose problems with those that feel pressured to opt in. It's not like we don't have dps benchmarks for vet trials anyway. The transparency this would provide could be a benefit.

An opt in system would only serve the same purpose as a mandatory one. People demanding folk have it switched on. That ain't opt in in any shape or form.

Then again... Are we talking about pug dungeons or vet trials? In dungeons, no one cares what's your dps or which gear you're using if bosses die reasonably fast and the group doesnt get stuck.

ResTandRespeC

Yes, add dps % meter

jabrone77 wrote: »

I think everyone here is missing the overall point ...
This info was available once upon a time.
Zos gave us the ball....and we fumbled it.
It was used to exclude and shame. It led to toxicity.
I also find the pro argument funny. "We can already tell"...ok, why is this needed then?
I'll ask again, if this didn't work before, and Zos had to remove it because it led to toxic behavior, why would they allow it again?

Some of us can "tell" but its not a quantifiable number that we can then use to see if the group as a whole or the player who needed help is getting better. This is especially helpful for progressing content and perfecting content for leaderboard scores.

TheGr8David wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DPS meters would actually help reduce toxicity as they would keep people honest. A lot of times, the biggest complainers about group performance are those that aren't pulling their own weight.

It would reduce the toxicity of DPS who don't pull their weight for sure, but it would re-introduce another type of toxic player.

The DPS who believe their DPS should be the standard by which all other DPS are measured, and we would have a repeat of players being excluded from a majority of game content for not being able to pull max numbers.

Anyone else remember nightblades being excluded from content post-Craglorn because they couldn't hit the stupid high numbers DKs could at the time?

All that still happens with a lot of groups, since they know which classes pull the highest numbers! Might actually help if a person was able to show that they pull higher numbers than other people in the group with there class! Right now all we have is "well... Nightblades can theoretically pull the highest numbers".

ResTandRespeC

Yes, add dps % meter

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. Group DPS is the only DPS that matters.
2. You already have a pretty good idea who's doing alright and who needs a bit of help.
3. Every single individual can look at their own Combat Metrics and see the % of the DPS they're doing. 1/8th is a little over 12%. Anything above that is bonus.
4. Place the focus on this and you can forget about people stopping to rez, moving out of the red, interrupts, call outs, or doing much of anything but their rotation.

But you're already aware of all these things.

If you are the tank, most the time you have little clue.

If you're the Raid Lead, you do.

In all but the busiest fights, you have a pretty good feel if things are taking longer than necessary. Things stay up longer, and as a result, people die more.

When people get more comfortable with the mechanics of a particular fight, that's when DPS goes up. They get to focus more on damage and have to focus less on callouts and mechanics. I've seen it happen time and time again.

If you're Raid Lead and the tank, you're not watching what everyone else is doing as much as the boss and the mobs. Generally there's at least one other individual that can, though, be it heals, OT, whatever.

Unless you're trying to world first or leaderboard, #1 still applies. If you fall 1k DPS short on Rakkhat or the Twins, is it because Bob didn't pull 33k instead of 32k, or is it because group DPS was 1k short and still led to a wipe?

Or to take it up a notch, if everyone else in the group is doing 50k, but one person is doing 49k, does that suddenly make them bad? Somehow I doubt it.

And if you are trying to do either of those things, you can simply have your teammates run the appropriate addons and require them to post after fights.

Except for a handful of DPS checks in the game, I'll take a steady but survivable and aware group over a hard hitting, but volatile group any day of the week. One will hit leaderboards sometimes. One will get consistent clears.

As the Raid Lead, part of your job is to identify the issues and help resolve them. Not to be callous,, but if you're the not the Raid Lead, regardless of your role, then frankly, you don't need to know.

Console

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes, add dps % meter

In THEORY communism works too.

Also, I meant “no” but cant edit that out!

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Toxicity exists because a good part of the population is toxic. Anything passing through them becomes toxic.

A DPS meter per se is not toxic. In fact, not having transparent DPS data results in:

• DPS tests against a dummy target which is far from what you face in real combat. As well as in cheating.
• People getting excluded, anyway.
• Cheating. People claim they do X damage and unless you have time to check that claim, you can end up with fakes.

Everything is better is transparent. I don't need to see your bar, but I see nothing wrong in knowing your DPS as we clea a dungeon or trial. Just like knowing what gear you wear.

People complaining against elitism. Well elitism is still there.

Guppet

Yes, add dps % meter

I think it could work well. But only if the only dps you see is your own.

If you see other people’s its going to be abused.

Something like

Your DPS is currently 15,000. Overall group DPS is 50,000. 30% of group dps.

Maybe have it as a command you type. Like /current dps.

No more than that.

If your carrying you’ll know. If your terrible you’ll know. But you’ll never know anyone else’s figures.

DamenAJ

Guppet wrote: »

I think it could work well. But only if the only dps you see is your own.

If you see other people’s its going to be abused.

Something like

Your DPS is currently 15,000. Overall group DPS is 50,000. 30% of group dps.

Maybe have it as a command you type. Like /current dps.

No more than that.

If your carrying you’ll know. If your terrible you’ll know. But you’ll never know anyone else’s figures.

What you're talking about exists as an addon on PC (Combat metrics), what people here are looking for is one to see everyone elses dps.

It'd be nice to stick something like combat metrics into the game, so that console users can use it, but, again, I abstained from voting on seeing everyones DPS, because it leads to a lot of toxicity.

Turelus

No, don’t add meter

Core game feature? No, not unless it's optional an even then I would be against it because it would lead to "show DPS or kick" attitudes in dungeons.

We already face enough issues with group finder because people are unhappy that others from a random grouping tool don't meet their expectations, allowing players to see this kind of information will only encourage and empower that mentality.

If you're on PC there are add-ons which publish you DPS for the whole group to see and if you're in a closed group using this for the right reasons it works fine.