moved

Aeslief

This just keeps getting worse. Now we multiple conflicting unofficial ‘official’ statements.

ZOS I beg you settle this once and for all! It is shameful to leave people in the dark like this when all we want to do is spend money on your game without breaking the rules but we need to know for sure what does or doesn’t break them!

Yigrok

vovus69 wrote: »

This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.

-vovus

My friend, you never "own" anything in this life...

Yigrok

If you all want to trade gold for cash in this game, first thing ZoS needs to do is implement a Hard Currency to Soft Currency conversion system. Where players demand can control the crown to gold conversion ration.

This way you have a separate window in the crown store panel where you can either:
1. Change gold to crowns ( set how many crowns you want to buy with x amount of gold for 1 crown or just straight up buy the amount you need directly with what is already provided on the market)
2. Change crowns to gold ( same as above)

Then you can safely say that you will have a safe crowns to gold conversion ecosystem.

This would pretty much be in their favor and ours as well.

reoskit

Thanks for the update, @treatz!

It sounds like it's safe(st) to just sit on our hands and not try to exchange crown items for gold, as the OP says. Thanks for the thread, @DoctorESO.

Aeslief

DoctorESO wrote: »

Aeslief wrote: »

This just keeps getting worse. Now we multiple conflicting unofficial ‘official’ statements.

ZOS I beg you settle this once and for all! It is shameful to leave people in the dark like this when all we want to do is spend money on your game without breaking the rules but we need to know for sure what does or doesn’t break them!

From a recent post above, it looks like the conflicting response was rescinded: "After some review of all the fine-print, it seems we may have mistyped in our last reply! As indicated by Mykael, trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules. This includes items purchased from the crown store as well. Given that these items and currency are purchased with Real Money, to perform an exchange would technically be rule-breaking and may result in disciplinary action to be taken against your account."

That is still not good enough. All of this communication has been via private channels, and the fact that the statements have conflicted is further proof, as if any were needed, that a definitive public statement needs to be made, via the forums or www.elderscrollsonline.com, what guidelines govern gifting. This stance needs to be made both official and public, in an avenue that any player can be reasonably expected to find it easily. If customer support is having trouble correctly interpreting their own rules, how can we be expected to?

Eyro

Love it.

Hi. Yes, it turns out our last response was wrong. It is in fact against the rules to trade in game items for i game gold.

You should respond and ask them why the store items are different then the other items in the game. Since after all you have to pay to get access to all the items in the game.

ZOS_GinaBruno

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

Jaeysa

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

So trading a crown crate for gold is fine? Sweet.

heaven13

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

But the question is...is a Crown Store item considered an in-game item (since it is found in-game) or a out-of-game since it's purchased with crowns ie real money? That seems to be where all the confusion is.

bellatrixed

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

This still isn't crystal clear though.

I was under the impression that since crowns are purchased with real world money that you cannot trade gold (or other items) in exchange for crown items.

But some people, including support ticket responses, are saying that it IS okay to trade crown items for gold.

Koolio

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

TYVM

Inoki

Hi,

the way I see it, there's bots in this game. Making items tradeable for gold will make this worse as there will be more bots for more gold farming and the game will ultimately be heavily over-infested. I've seen this in other games and it always ends up the same way - game dies.

If ZOS want dedicated supporters of the franchise like myself to continue supporting development they should never allow this sort of trading. It also completely eliminates the concept of items being unique as not everyone wants to spend money on the game. This way anyone will have anything and game will be infested. This is a fact.

Tandor

I'm mightily confused at the turns this has taken. A simple answer to a simple question would seem appropriate:-

Is it permitted for Crown Store items to be gifted to a player in return for ingame gold?

A simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice!

Jaeysa

heaven13 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

But the question is...is a Crown Store item considered an in-game item (since it is found in-game) or a out-of-game since it's purchased with crowns ie real money? That seems to be where all the confusion is.

2.E from the TOS

The Services may make use of one or more virtual currencies, either within a single Service, such as a Game, or for use across multiple Services ("Virtual Currency"). The following terms govern the use of Virtual Currency in connection with the ZeniMax Services. Additional Virtual Currency-related terms may be contained in the EULA for a particular Game and, where there is a conflict between such terms and this Section 2(E), the Virtual Currency-related terms in the EULA shall govern.


Virtual Currency may be obtained in one or more ways depending on the type of Virtual Currency and the Service or Services associated with that Virtual Currency, including without limitation Virtual Currency that may be obtained through purchase with real currency, in-Game actions or achievements, as a part of membership benefits, or otherwise. ZeniMax may, from time to time and in its sole discretion, grant Virtual Currency to Users of one or more Services as a gesture of goodwill or in connection with promotions, memberships, competitions, or sweepstakes organized by ZeniMax. All Virtual Currency that is purchased with real currency, either alone or together with other Services or access to Services (including without limitation payment for memberships), shall be referred to as "Purchased Virtual Currency." All Virtual Currency that is not Purchased Virtual Currency shall be referred to as "Complimentary Virtual Currency."


Regardless of the method by which You obtain a Virtual Currency and subject only to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), it has no value in real currency, and is not transferable to any other person, or returnable, exchangeable, or refundable for real currency, goods, or services. By purchasing or otherwise obtaining Virtual Currency, you acknowledge and agree that all Virtual Currencies represent a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable license for Your personal, private, non-commercial use of ZeniMax Services governed by these Terms of Service. Because it is a license, Virtual Currency is not property in which You have any ownership right, title, or other interest. Any Virtual Currency balance shown in Your Account does not constitute a real currency balance or reflect any monetary value.


ZeniMax reserves the right to change the price for any Purchased Virtual Currency or to bundle Purchased Virtual Currency in any amount with other Services or access to other Services at any time and without providing notice to You. You will have no right to a refund as a result of any change in the price or bundling at which Purchase Virtual Currency can be obtained, subject only to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1). In the case of Complimentary Virtual Currency, ZeniMax reserves the right to change or limit the amount of Complimentary Virtual Currency granted as part of any ongoing or continuous promotion, to discontinue any promotion or to bundle Complimentary Virtual Currency in any amount with other Services or access to other Services at any time and without providing notice to You.


Virtual Currency is not transferable to, or redeemable for, any sum of real currency or monetary value from ZeniMax or any other person at any time. ZeniMax prohibits, and does not recognize any purported, transfers, sales, gifts, or trades of Virtual Currency. Virtual Currency will only be used by You to obtain virtual goods within a Game (e.g., durable goods that become part of Your inventory in the Game and consumable or single use items that are used and expire after use within the Game) or other Downloadable Content, through one or more Services, as determined by ZeniMax in its sole discretion. You agree not to sell or transfer, or assist others in selling or transferring Virtual Currencies or any amounts thereof. Evidence of any attempt to use, sell or transfer Virtual Currency in any manner that violates these Terms of Service may result in revocation, termination, or cancellation of the Virtual Currency and/or Your use of the Services without refund and/or immediate suspension or termination of Your Account.

Key part is "Virtual Currency will only be used by You to obtain virtual goods within a Game (e.g., durable goods that become part of Your inventory in the Game and consumable or single use items that are used and expire after use within the Game)" And "it has no value in real currency, and is not transferable to any other person, or returnable, exchangeable, or refundable for real currency, goods, or services"

Stuff bought on the crown store are considered in-game items.

Iselin

Yay. We finally got a green post

It's what some of us have been saying since this was announced: yes, you can do it. But just like any other in game thing that people exchange for gold where there is no secure trading interface - vampire bites, Skyhold runs, etc. - you do so clearly at your own risk and if you get burnt, them's the breaks - don't go filing support tickets about it or QQing in the forum.

Lake

So the OP was fake / inaccurate all along?

Jaeysa

Lake wrote: »

So the OP was fake / inaccurate all along?

My guess it was either fake *or* they had a big meeting recently, but the OP got a response from a GM before.

Beardimus

DoctorESO wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Here is the official response from ZOS:

Greetings,

Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold.

Thanks,

Mykael

Elder Scrolls Online
ZeniMax Online Studios

So that settles the matter once and for all. No more ambiguity.

ZOS sent this response on 6/5/18 at 7:16 PM UTC. The support ticket number is 180530-003571.

Sorry @DoctorESO plenty of ambiguity. Like why wasn't this a screen shot.

It's hardly official because you say so. When its an official communication, then its official.

Otherwise its just 'another' sensational click bait thread.

Symantec's aside, i believe this was the intention all along and people just hoped. I do believe this is correct. But its just your positioning that's not clear.

@ZOS_GinaBruno can you make this official if its official?

ZOS used the phrasing "completely against the rules." Not ambiguous. Proceed at your own risk.

I never questioned the wording. I questioned your post. I agree wholeheartedly its wrong.

Beardimus

templesus wrote: »

My question is, if it truly is against the rules, why hasn’t Gina or Jess come out and said it yet? They would have said it back when it was initially asked if it was concrete against the rules...my guess is they are still discussing it and have not decided yet.

Agreed. Hence tagging them and asking @DoctorESO to post the screen Shot.

Eyro

In before...

It turns out our last response was wrong....

MerlinPendragon

Would be GREAT if ya know.... ZOS would just publicly address this a bit more directly.

WaTeR-aBuSeR

Why would they? They don't want all the negative press with being able to buy crown items for gold. Which is the way is should have been to begin with.

eso_nya

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

This official answer has alot of room for interpretation.
The obvious:
You r not allowed to charge your girlfriend 10k gold for bringin her a beer.
You r also not allowed to sell those 10k gold on eBay.
Furthermore, u r not allowed to reward your kids for the quest "clean up mommys puke before daddy comes home" with a new motifbook.

The more intresting part is: "Are crownstore items considered ingame items?"

On one hand u could say, as crownstore items (such as houses, mounts, costumes, polymorphs, food, drinks and so on) r rewarded by a lot of ingame activities like quests, beating certain challenges, level up advisor, daily logins and giveaways, they r clearly ingame items. Gifting-for-gold is clearly okay!

On the other hand u could argue: If crownstore items r ingame items, so r crowns as they r used as a virtual currency to purchase said items. If crowns r ingame items, not only gifting-for-gold, but also buying crowns for RL-money is a violation of the ToS.

Now looking back at the statement, u could argue:
"It is unclear, because Ms Bruno failed hard to provide a valid answer to a binary question." or u could say, the unclear answer was given on purpose and basically reads "Please buy crowns, we dont care what u do with them, but we want to avoid the p2w-[snip]storm for acknowledging gift-for-gold as official feature."

Either way, there is a loophole:

TL/DR:
To be on the save side, open up shops and advertise:
"1 Deadric Husk for 1m Gold. Every customer of this new shop, gets a special reward for the purchase: A crownstore item worth 1k crowns of your own choice!
Discount: Buy 6 Deadric Husks for only 5m gold! If u choose this special offer, your personalised reward will be a crownstore item of own choice for a whooping 5K Crowns!"

hiyde

reoskit wrote: »

I would love to see a moderator post, here in the forums, an official response to this. A guildie forwarded me a support ticket asking the same question that received precisely the opposite answer from the OP. Not my ticket; not my screenshot to share. Trust me or don't.

I'd just like a definitive, non-legalese answer. It's difficult to follow the rules if you cannot discern what they are.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm still really fuzzy. Is trading gold for an item "gifted" from the Crown Store allowed or no?

IF yes, is it ok for guilds to "raffle" Crown store gifts as a prize for tickets purchased with gold?

The guiding rule in the past has been that guilds cannot prize anything that costs RL $$ (i.e. crown cards, subs) if it involves in-game gold. For example:

Giving away a crowns code for a horse racing event or to a random guild member = OK
Giving away a crowns code as part of a raffle where gold is used to enter = was not OK.

How does the above apply to Crown Store gifts?


i.e. is gold considered an in-game item in your answer above? It would seem yes...

lordhakai

@ZOS_GinaBruno I am even more confused now yes or no please no maybe's

Iselin

lordhakai wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno I am even more confused now yes or no please no maybe's

You're not likely to get any reply more clear than what she already said.

If the trade was actual crowns for gold that would take it one step closer to being gold for cash but even then the fact that there is an intermediary in-game currency between the cash and the gold serves to dilute the cash for gold question - even more so in a game like ESO where crowns can also be acquired as a perk of subbing: you pay for the sub and the crowns are just thrown in so you're not even buying crowns with cash in that case technically.

Gold for crown shop items, which is the only possible trade with the gifting system, is another step removed from cash for gold. You buy crowns with cash or you get them as a bonus for subbing. You then use those crowns that have value only in the game to buy items that are usable only in the game and then you trade that item to someone for gold which is also usable only in the game.

Gina's answer is crystal clear: trading any game item or gold or crowns for real world cash or real world goods is prohibited. Trading in game things for other in game things is not.

Elsonso

hiyde wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I would love to see a moderator post, here in the forums, an official response to this. A guildie forwarded me a support ticket asking the same question that received precisely the opposite answer from the OP. Not my ticket; not my screenshot to share. Trust me or don't.

I'd just like a definitive, non-legalese answer. It's difficult to follow the rules if you cannot discern what they are.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm still really fuzzy. Is trading gold for an item "gifted" from the Crown Store allowed or no?

IF yes, is it ok for guilds to "raffle" Crown store gifts as a prize for tickets purchased with gold?

The guiding rule in the past has been that guilds cannot prize anything that costs RL $$ (i.e. crown cards, subs) if it involves in-game gold. For example:

Giving away a crowns code for a horse racing event or to a random guild member = OK
Giving away a crowns code as part of a raffle where gold is used to enter = was not OK.

How does the above apply to Crown Store gifts?


i.e. is gold considered an in-game item in your answer above? It would seem yes...

While I appreciate that Gina took the time to answer, her answer is less precise than the reported response from Support, and contradicts it. I'm not sure that it clarifies the situation. If anything, we are back to square one.

Juju_beans

heaven13 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

But the question is...is a Crown Store item considered an in-game item (since it is found in-game) or a out-of-game since it's purchased with crowns ie real money? That seems to be where all the confusion is.

Crowns are an in game currency. You buy stuff IN GAME with the crowns. You trade IN GAME with someone for gold which is also in game currency.

I think you are overthinking this too much.

You cannot do any type of gold/crown item trading outside of the game, can you ?
That crown item you bought is only valid in game...it doesn't exist when you shut down ESO.

Aliyavana

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

so for clarification, I can buy a random person a crown item for ingame gold and its allowed? what if I am scammed, will my gold be refunded? or if im the seller will I get my crowns back?

Elsonso

DoctorESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I would love to see a moderator post, here in the forums, an official response to this. A guildie forwarded me a support ticket asking the same question that received precisely the opposite answer from the OP. Not my ticket; not my screenshot to share. Trust me or don't.

I'd just like a definitive, non-legalese answer. It's difficult to follow the rules if you cannot discern what they are.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm still really fuzzy. Is trading gold for an item "gifted" from the Crown Store allowed or no?

IF yes, is it ok for guilds to "raffle" Crown store gifts as a prize for tickets purchased with gold?

The guiding rule in the past has been that guilds cannot prize anything that costs RL $$ (i.e. crown cards, subs) if it involves in-game gold. For example:

Giving away a crowns code for a horse racing event or to a random guild member = OK
Giving away a crowns code as part of a raffle where gold is used to enter = was not OK.

How does the above apply to Crown Store gifts?


i.e. is gold considered an in-game item in your answer above? It would seem yes...

While I appreciate that Gina took the time to answer, her answer is less precise than the reported response from Support, and contradicts it. I'm not sure that it clarifies the situation. If anything, we are back to square one.

I updated my support ticket with the conflicting support response (and re-response pulling back the original response) and the response from the moderator on this forum. I'll keep you posted with what is said in response to my ticket.

Thanks. If it results in a brawl between Gina and Mykael, best hope the don't blame you!