moved

stuartx13

It's not really gray.If you think so do it but when you get a ban you will know.I feel the only one that really want to gift for gold are bot runners and gold seller's.

nryerson1025

if we find one of our peers to have addictive tendencies toward crown crates, where should we send him/her for help?

AlienatedGoat

lordrichter wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.

Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.

Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.

"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."

Read my thread over this. Neither Crowns, Crown-items nor gold constitute "real currency" or "value outside of the Services".

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417585/zos-you-need-to-change-your-tos-and-eula

No, really. I give quotes on the definitions of both. Everything is there in the ToS and EULA.

There is nothing in any of the legal documentation to support the statements from Support, pardon the pun.

Jaraal

degarmo_ESO wrote: »

Against the rules, nearly impossible to prove.

Doesn't really matter what they can prove or not, if they feel like banning your account for whatever reason, they will do it. What's your recourse? Gonna spend thousands on a lawyer and sue some gaming corporation to get your 30 dollar account reinstated? Not likely.

sylviermoone

lordrichter wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.

Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.

Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.

"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."

ZOS has already, in the past, used this line to ban selling crown codes game codes, ESO plus time or pet codes for gold. Which isn't any different than selling crown items for gold. The crowns are purchased with real money; trading them (or items purchased with them) is against ZOS's TOS.

Whether or not that will enforce that uniformly is a totally different issue.

Peekachu99

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Can you confirm the authenticity of this ticket and information? Players shouldn’t have to rely on second hand information to avoid breaking the TOS. An actual, official post and article is weeks overdue.

Cously

Rules need to be made absolutely clear. It's in the company's right to put any rules they want in the game and change the TOS for any reason anytime they want. But we must be informed clearly and I don't feel sufficiently informed about this subject. Anyone with a brain know that there is gift for gold transactions being performed right now. Why don't ZOS put a system to convert gold to crowns already? Seems like they, again, cornered themselves in more problems to solve.

Phage wrote: »

Neither Crowns, Crown-items nor gold constitute "real currency" or "value outside of the Services".

Iselin

So how official and well-informed is this Mykael person and is he the same person that thought it was OK to turn on RedShell without his higher-ups (supposedly) knowing anything about it? So many questions...

Pixel_Zealot

Unenforceable yes, but...

If somebody made a deal with you saying they would give you 100 000 gold for that cat pet, you send them the gift and they never send you the gold, you can't bother ZOS by reporting that person as it's against the rules.

Aeslief

It is shameful that ZOS has yet to officially respond to this debate, especially now that we have someone claiming to present a definitive statement made through private channels.

Knootewoot

vovus69 wrote: »

This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.

-vovus

Well it is not yours since Zeniman still holds ownership to all content (also the characters items like gold and crowns)

"Content" includes technology, text, forum posts, chat posts, profiles, widgets, messages, links, emails, music, sound, graphics, animations, animation-style videos, Content, pictures, code, files, data, characters (and items and attributes associated with characters), and all audio visual or other material appearing on or emanating to and/or from the Services, as well as the design and appearance of any websites under ZeniMax's control. All Content made available by ZeniMax, unless explicitly identified as third party Content, is owned by ZeniMax, its affiliates and/or their licensors.

and

You agree that You have no ownership right or title in or to any such Downloadable Content, including, but not limited to, the virtual goods appearing or originating in the Services (such as a Game) or any other attributes associated with any Account or Services. ZeniMax does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything that appears or originates in a Service or a Game. Accordingly, You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services. Evidence of any attempt to redeem Downloadable Content for a purported exchange, sale, gift or trade in the "real world" will result in the immediate suspension or termination of Your Account.

Hell, you don't even own yur own account

By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.

You don't own ***

Violynne

DoctorESO wrote: »

Here is the official response from ZOS:

No, that's not an official response from ZoS. That's an employee replying to a question.

The Terms of Service has not been updated to cover this type of transaction. The ToS simply bars people from buying or selling using currency.

Crowns is not a currency, no matter what ZoS believes.

ZoS should not be banning anyone until their ToS is updated to ensure everyone knows trading gold for Crowns is not allowed.

My two cents: ZoS isn't going to care for this and the reason is real simple (and you people should pay very damn close attention given how much emphasis is being placed on the Crown Store).

Crowns are a way to bypass practically every state, province, and federal law around the world. They're not actual currency. It's Foney Munny™ and companies can get away with doing whatever they want.

ZoS is hoping many players will trade gold for Crowns because it improves their bottom line.

JJBoomer

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

Except all we have is a quoted email. No screenshot, and "Mykael" is not one of the people that has EVER replied here on the forums, like Gina or Matt. And without a screenie of that email, and another official person, higher up to correlate it, it's still up in the air. Anyone can type out an email they received and call it real.

I could do that right now. I could type out an email from the CEO, put stuff in bold and say it's real. Is it without proof? Nope. Same here is all I'm saying.

We need more than second hand info from a random player and a lowbie in the support department.

JJBoomer

lordrichter wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.

Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.

Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.

"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."

Except crown store items are not a real currency. Real dollars are not being exchanged for gold here. Crown items (having been purchased with real money, thus the real currency has already been used) are being exchanged for gold. Which according to your quote, Gold is a value inside the service. So we have something that is not real currency, being exchanged for a value within the service (gold). which is not a violation of what you just posted.

So we don't have real money being exchanged for gold. Crown Items are not a real currency. And Gold is a value inside the service.

Hence all the confusion. Exchanging crown items for gold, is by no definition, gold selling, or giving someone real currency for anything. Which is why people want ZOS to take a position or update the ToS.

What ZOS needs to do is specify whether exchanging real currency BY PROXY of crown store items for gold is or is not allowed. That's the question here. Real dollars are not exchanging hands. But items bought with real currency is, for an in service value. And the documents provided are not clear about that at all.

Like I said before, I would not advise it. I think it's a bad risk for people to take. Again, just grind gold with the rest of us.

Beardimus

DoctorESO wrote: »

Here is the official response from ZOS:

Greetings,

Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold.

Thanks,

Mykael

Elder Scrolls Online
ZeniMax Online Studios

So that settles the matter once and for all. No more ambiguity.

ZOS sent this response on 6/5/18 at 7:16 PM UTC. The support ticket number is 180530-003571.

Sorry @DoctorESO plenty of ambiguity. Like why wasn't this a screen shot.

It's hardly official because you say so. When its an official communication, then its official.

Otherwise its just 'another' sensational click bait thread.

Symantec's aside, i believe this was the intention all along and people just hoped. I do believe this is correct. But its just your positioning that's not clear.

@ZOS_GinaBruno can you make this official if its official?

Peekachu99

JJBoomer wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.

Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.

Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.

"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."

Except crown store items are not a real currency. Real dollars are not being exchanged for gold here. Crown items (having been purchased with real money, thus the real currency has already been used) are being exchanged for gold. Which according to your quote, Gold is a value inside the service. So we have something that is not real currency, being exchanged for a value within the service (gold). which is not a violation of what you just posted.

So we don't have real money being exchanged for gold. Crown Items are not a real currency. And Gold is a value inside the service.

Hence all the confusion. Exchanging crown items for gold, is by no definition, gold selling, or giving someone real currency for anything. Which is why people want ZOS to take a position or update the ToS.

What ZOS needs to do is specify whether exchanging real currency BY PROXY of crown store items for gold is or is not allowed. That's the question here. Real dollars are not exchanging hands. But items bought with real currency is, for an in service value. And the documents provided are not clear about that at all.

Like I said before, I would not advise it. I think it's a bad risk for people to take. Again, just grind gold with the rest of us.

Or they could just add a COD window or the like, as EVERY OTHER MMORPG that deals with in-game currency/ gifting does. Gold sellers are locked out, since they’re so easily tracked—every transaction is protected. It’s astonishing and reckless that they would implement something like this without any kind of safeguards.

SugaComa

Wait so here is a scenario

Guild holds a raffle ... It's gold to enter

The prizes are gifts from the crown store

Does the whole guild get in trouble or just the winners ?

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Aliyavana

@zos_ginabruno @zos_jessicafolmen

Viscous119

Quite honestly, I don't think ZoS has the manpower to follow-up on all the transactions since the game has a huge population. Just like in WoW, they would only ban people who were trading gold in HUGE amounts.

Merlin13KAGL

There will end up being the in-game version of money laundering...doesn't take a whole lot of advanced thought to figure out how to work around this, if you were really intent on doing so.

I suspect when someone factors in their time, the gold > Crowns conversion rate won't look to appealing to legitimate players anymore.

How much gold is the typical person making in an hours' time these days?

Cpt_Teemo

SugaComa wrote: »

Wait so here is a scenario

Guild holds a raffle ... It's gold to enter

The prizes are gifts from the crown store

Does the whole guild get in trouble or just the winners ?

Your ZoS rep is a noob that needs retraining sorry

They've been doing that even before implementing the gifting system, it's been in game since like 2 years ago since it started you basically sent a ticket in and asked to get crowns transferred to another account lol

commdt

Never ever trade gold for crowns/gifts! It is against both rules and morale

Just make gold gifts to your friends and let them make you crown gifts

MEBengalsFan2001

If they consider this gold selling, than yeah it becomes an issue. In other games it is hard to prove and many here have provided scenario where it would be hard to prove but they, the developer, has the right to take action against players who may appear to be breaking the ToS.

With gifting to another it is a gift meaning you should not expect anything in return. However, if you are getting something in return, say gold or other items of value you may be violating the rules. So tread careful when gifting or trading items.

templesus

My question is, if it truly is against the rules, why hasn’t Gina or Jess come out and said it yet? They would have said it back when it was initially asked if it was concrete against the rules...my guess is they are still discussing it and have not decided yet.

Nifty2g

don't say don't tell sort of deal going on here

DeadlyPhoenix

JJBoomer wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.

I think we got just that: "Trading gold for Crowns is completely against the rules, same goes for providing Crown Store items in exchange for gold."

No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.

Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.

Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.

"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."

Except crown store items are not a real currency. Real dollars are not being exchanged for gold here. Crown items (having been purchased with real money, thus the real currency has already been used) are being exchanged for gold. Which according to your quote, Gold is a value inside the service. So we have something that is not real currency, being exchanged for a value within the service (gold). which is not a violation of what you just posted.

So we don't have real money being exchanged for gold. Crown Items are not a real currency. And Gold is a value inside the service.

Hence all the confusion. Exchanging crown items for gold, is by no definition, gold selling, or giving someone real currency for anything. Which is why people want ZOS to take a position or update the ToS.

What ZOS needs to do is specify whether exchanging real currency BY PROXY of crown store items for gold is or is not allowed. That's the question here. Real dollars are not exchanging hands. But items bought with real currency is, for an in service value. And the documents provided are not clear about that at all.

Like I said before, I would not advise it. I think it's a bad risk for people to take. Again, just grind gold with the rest of us.

This 100%

However any item that is in the game was bought with real world currency. People would argue crowns are purchased with real money as to where gold is not. That's wrong though. We paid for the game and we pay a subscription (at least on console to play online). So technically we used real world money to buy the gold, or the means to obtain the gold just like we do for crowns.

We do not own the crown items, crowns themselves or anything else inside of the game and they are all considered Services. We cannot take our crowns with us to another game or the items that we buy with them. Therefore it is all classified as in game currency and services.

Once again I say until they release an official announcement saying it is against their rules, updating all their legal documentation and making you agree to it, they cannot take actions against your account without risking a very real and legitimate lawsuit against them. You are not breaking any rules by trading crown items for gold, just like you're not breaking any rules selling vMoL skin runs.

VMoL is a DLC, purchased with crowns and is a service. Selling the skin for gold, by Mykaels' standard is against the rules, however it is allowed and happens daily because there is nothing stating it's against the rules. You're essentially selling a crown store exclusive item for gold either way you look at it.

DeadlyPhoenix

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

If they consider this gold selling, than yeah it becomes an issue. In other games it is hard to prove and many here have provided scenario where it would be hard to prove but they, the developer, has the right to take action against players who may appear to be breaking the ToS.

With gifting to another it is a gift meaning you should not expect anything in return. However, if you are getting something in return, say gold or other items of value you may be violating the rules. So tread careful when gifting or trading items.

You contradicted yourself here. With the whole gifting aspect. I gift a crown store item to someone. They gifted me gold. It is not a trade. Exchange of in game gifts. You're not getting anything in return for your gift, you're simply being given a gift as well. Trading in game items isn't against the ToS and crowns/crown items are in game items, not real world currency, therefore are completely legal to be traded in game.

Since there is no proper trade feature for crown to gold, you're not trading at all, merely gifting. Gifting doesn't breach the ToS in anyway nor does receiving a gift for giving one. Even if you could trade straight up in a trade window, it would still be legal to do so under their current rules that we agreed to abide by.

They haven't responded at all on the forums yet because they do not have an official stance on the matter. Doing so and saying it's against the rules means they must update their legal documents.

Crown Gems, Crowns and Crown Store items will never be considered real-world currency or items.

Gilvoth

this to me is hard to accept, seeing that all of us zenimax, the crown item purchaser, and the gold giver are and would be winners in this.
all people involved would gain what they want if this was allowed.

so to me this does not seem what would be the right response.
but, it is what it is.

DeadlyPhoenix

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this to me is hard to accept, seeing that all of us zenimax, the crown item purchaser, and the gold giver are and would be winners in this.
all people involved would gain what they want if this was allowed.

so to me this does not seem what would be the right response.
but, it is what it is.

So far it doesn't seem like a legit policy to me, but instead it's just one support member trying to save himself and his co-workers thousands of help tickets claiming they got scammed. So he says it's against the rules since no one else has said anything one way or another.

Edit*
You're right though, this benefits all parties involved if everyone gets what they want and no one is scammed. ZOS did this to bring in more money. They knew people would buy and sell crowns and crown items and that was their intent. It wasn't so that you could gift someone a DLC without having to file a support ticket, it was to encourage more transactions.

Everybody wins. They need to make a trade system for it though, but surely, as with their normal trade system it will be exploitable and people will flood support with "I was scammed!" tickets.

DaveMoeDee

Good for them. Clearly they could have made money from people buying crowns and gifting items to essentially buy in-game gold with real money. Allowing this would make them the replacement for 3rd party gold farmers. They are saying they don't want to make money that way, probably because they don't want to be part of people essentially buying gold rings and monster armor for cash.