[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

Springt-Über-Zwerge

Lum1on wrote: »

This post is all about magicka templars in PVE.

[*] Sun fire (Dawn's wrath): Vampire's bane doesn't really deal any more damage than Reflective light and that's the only complain I have about this skill. I also don't really understand the minor buff on this because basically everybody uses Inner light and/or potions.

The crit buff is great for pvp when you dont have enough space to slot inner light or have to run other potions than spellcrit ones

Drdeath20

Lum1on wrote: »

This post is all about magicka templars in PVE.

Everybody is complaining about skills that are aweful and presenting their ideas. I wanted to take a different approach and let everyone know which skills and passives are worth keeping as they are (with little changes, maybe...)

Skills (and passives) that are okay-ish in my opinion:

• Spear shards (Aedric spear): A well differentiated skill for damage dealers and healers.
• Piercing spear
• Spear wall
• Balanced warrior: Yeah, nice to have some passives for stamina and tanks as well, but... It just feels like Templar was the last one developed and the developers were thinking like "I don't think we have given any class a pure weapon damage and spell resistance buffs from passives without any kind of strings attached", and you did that. Like, why specifically weapon damage? Or, more importantly, why spell resistance?
• Sun fire (Dawn's wrath): Vampire's bane doesn't really deal any more damage than Reflective light and that's the only complain I have about this skill. I also don't really understand the minor buff on this because basically everybody uses Inner light and/or potions.
• Backlash: The only problem I have with this ability (I'm sorry, everyone...) is that it's way too cheap compared to what it gives. I understand and like the idea of Templars' skills deal damage and heal allies or themselves, but this skill is ridiculously good.
• Enduring rays: I like the idea of the passive, but because most of the skills (Eclipse, Solar flare and Nova) are utter carbage, this passive is not that good. However, the passive is fine as it is right now, so that's why it's on this list.
• Prism
• Illuminate: Some might require a weapon damage boost as well. But that is already given from Nightblades. And because this is an MMORPG where people supposedly play together.
• Restoring spirit
• Rushed ceremony (Restoring light): I have no issues with this skill or its morphs, but I would make it full radius again because of all the nerfs to this skill and sustain, and introducing Warden (as well as making pretty much all the classes capable to be good healers)
• Healing ritual: I like to think this as the real "oh sh*t!" heal because it's a full radius, instant heal to multiple allies. However, I don't really fully agree with the morphs (or the cost), but at least this is way better than what it used to be.
• Cleansing ritual: Two good morphs for different situations (damage dealers vs. healers, PVE vs. PVP, ...)
• Rune focus: Again, two good morphs for different situations (damage dealers and healers vs. tanks)
• Mending
• Sacred ground: Yes, it's only a minor buff but we also have Mending passive.
• Master ritualist

I like your approach even though i dissagree with you i find it refreshing to hear the "good". If you compare templars skills to world skill alternatives or similar skills every other class have, there are glaring problems with every 1 of them and the passives just make it worse. So i can slot a weaker templar skill, even though templar passives dont incentivies me, or i can slot a world skill alternative that does much more and the world skill passives are more incentivicing.

Just about everything templar has been nerfed down to where we are now and the funny thing is templars were never the top class. Forgive me for my cynicism but when you point out the good stuff i cant help but remember how bad its been nerfed down.

Neoauspex

It'd be cool if Templar had access to Minor Defile. That's a difficult debuff to get. But also move befoul to the blue CP tree.

SugaComa

Neoauspex wrote: »

It'd be cool if Templar had access to Minor Defile. That's a difficult debuff to get. But also move befoul to the blue CP tree.

Why would we want access to minor defile when we have access to major defile ?

worsttankever

1. Stamina sustain. Lack of abilities or passives to enable stamina sustain in PvP, either in medium or heavy. Repentance is underwhelming and not worth slotting.

2. Lack of good cc. Javelin contradicts main dps spammable (Jabs). Focused Charge and morphs are too clunky, don’t work. I feel like maybe Javelin can stay, but focused charge may as well be scrapped because the distance calculation and animation/follow through are dysfunctional and cannot be relied upon.

Neoauspex

SugaComa wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

It'd be cool if Templar had access to Minor Defile. That's a difficult debuff to get. But also move befoul to the blue CP tree.

Why would we want access to minor defile when we have access to major defile ?

They stack

Drdeath20

Just nuke the class. Theres not much left from what the class was at launch and they were only ok back then

Lum1on

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

The crit buff is great for pvp when you dont have enough space to slot inner light or have to run other potions than spellcrit ones

That is correct. However, like I explained at the beginning of my post that I will post it from magicka Templar's point of view in PVE content. : )

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I like your approach even though i dissagree with you i find it refreshing to hear the "good". If you compare templars skills to world skill alternatives or similar skills every other class have, there are glaring problems with every 1 of them and the passives just make it worse. So i can slot a weaker templar skill, even though templar passives dont incentivies me, or i can slot a world skill alternative that does much more and the world skill passives are more incentivicing.

Just about everything templar has been nerfed down to where we are now and the funny thing is templars were never the top class. Forgive me for my cynicism but when you point out the good stuff i cant help but remember how bad its been nerfed down.

I wouldn't say there are "problems with every 1 of them" and "passives just make it worse". It is true though, that Templars have been nerfed but I think some of the changes have been justified nerfs (again, magicka based and PVE content in mind). Can you elaborate which skills you think need the most attention from my list, and I'll give you a reason why I think it's there -- unless your argument is good enough that I can see something I haven't thought about previously. : )

Elsterchen

@Lum1on ... rune focus is a disgrace of a class skill, even in PVE (or how do you plan on surviving vCR? ). Or are you trying to sell a healer as magDD?

I did make a comparision of the unmorphed ability some time ago, please just read it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412049/suggestion-templar-upkeep-of-major-ward-and-major-resolve-through-true-self-buff-like-other-classes/p1?new=1

As for the morphed ones, don't forget Sorcs share their buffs with their pets, NBs never have any cost with gaining the Major Defence Buff, Wardens morphed version either increases range for the 21 s group buff or adds minor protection on caster ofc for 21 s, DKs get either a damage shield to their damgaging version of the major defence buff, or deal six times the damage of our house skill cleansing ritual for an only 2 seconds shorter duration.

Sry which ever way you may turn it, that skill is junk even if its morph sound fancy and unless you really need it to survive overland bosses that don't make you move during combat.

maxjapank

@Checkmath I'm a very big fan of Total Dark. I find it extremely powerful, especially the heal. I wouldn't want to see anything changed much. I just think that there should be some sort of punishment for breaking free and/or cleansing it.

Radiant Oppression is in a sad place for an execute. So much so, that I've changed to Radiant Glory for pvp. If I'm not going to get many kills with Oppression, then I may as well get some heals. It needs to hit harder.

Elsterchen

edit: @Lum1on sry but now you got me started ranting, remember its not personal (evenso it might seem at first glance)

Lets have a look at spear shards

Send your spear into the heavens to bring down a shower of divine wrath, dealing 454 Magic Damage to enemies in the target area and an addtional 79 Magic Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds.
An ally near can activate the Blessed Shard synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher.

Sounds awesome for sustain, now doesn't it?

And yes, its an awesome sustain skill, for everyone BUT the caster! How hard must ZOS troll us templars continously, before we stop saying its a good spell? It adds 0 to our own toolkit. Its only of use for healers that run group content.

Please show me those class skills of other classes that exclusively work only in groups and I might chance my optinion about this skill.

---

If you say "piecing spear" -> are you talking about good old joke of javelline? Its not a damage skill. Its not a crowd control skill as we lack any follow up ability to build pressure. Its a good laugh when pushing enemies from keep walls and thats it. The only use it has is to act as excuse for the developers to NOT give us a proper CC.

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As for spear wall, sounds like a nice passive. Would be indeed a nice passive, if
1) there was an aedric ability worth slotting in my toolkit. Let alone any aedric ability worth slotting on both bars!
2) there was no elder staves online. V2 atm, but actual build diversity where melee attacks are happening at least once in a while.

This is a prime example of a passive beeing to exclusive to be of real value.

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Balanced warrior ... you nailed it. Not sure why I should be happy about that passive, sure it could be worse... on the other hand it could be so much better.

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For sun fire I have little to say... I would welcome some sort of stam ability morph, if its worth anything.

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Ok, coffee is finished and mood is eased... I can go on if you really want to, alas I don#t think its of any real value (exept some ppl might find it funny how that little stamplar is getting into a rant).

Checkmath

nice the chat finally goes on^^
@maxjapank , i wont change total dark, this is in the devs hands and i hope they do something good with the feedback of lacking good crowd control abilities (hope this results in something new than tweaking eclypse).
Anyway we will see soon some changes (at least i hope i do so as class rep :P).

Stibbons

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Just nuke the class. Theres not much left from what the class was at launch and they were only ok back then

Easy choice is just to avoid the class. Just play sorc house if you like house mechanics. Mines, automatic cc on enemy for 5 seconds, finisher does not self stun you.

Lum1on

Elsterchen wrote: »

@Lum1on ... rune focus is a disgrace of a class skill, even in PVE (or how do you plan on surviving vCR? ). Or are you trying to sell a healer as magDD?

...

The idea of Templars to "build a house" sounds nice, of course, and unique. I do agree that it has its flaws because movement plays such a big role nowadays in end game (PVE and PVP). It's also a shame that it doesn't give Major ward and resolve to allies like other classes can. But we do get magicka recovery from it.

Could it be better? Of course. I'm not saying they are perfect. But the thing is, it's nearly impossible to focus on changing everything at once. More better choice would be to focus on those that actually needs to be reworked. Like, completely.

Elsterchen wrote: »

edit: @Lum1on sry but now you got me started ranting, remember its not personal (evenso it might seem at first glance)

...

None taken. I'm not here to say "you are wrong, I'm right!". I'm here to create a discussion and share our thoughts. : )

So like I said, Spear shards clearly have a morph for damage dealers (magicka) and healers. And I'm fine with it. It also has a chance to proc Burning light passive so, what's not to like. Of course this skill could be done better (but let's be realistic; all the skills and passives have always something to improve -- I just want to focus on those that should/needs to be prioritized).

You mixed up Piercing spear passive and Piercing javelin skill. Piercing javelin is utter garbage. We all know that.

Piercing spear: (WITH AN AEDRIC SPEAR ABILITY SLOTTED) Increases your Critical Damage by 10%. Increases your damage done to blocking targets by 10%.

I see absolutely no problem with the passive, like I mentioned earlier.

When it comes to Spear wall, I don't think of it as a standalone passive. it synergizes really well with Piercing spear passive because they both requires you to have an Aedric spear ability slotted on your current bar. Of course, PVE wise it's more important to have that extra 10% critical damage on both bars, but in PVP (for 10% increased damage done against blocking targets)? It sounds nice and possible, but can't say for sure so I'm not putting my foot down on this case related to PVP, though.

Balanced warrior. Yeah. No need to discuss about this. It just doesn't make any sense why exactly these two things are there.

Sun fire morphs Reflective light and Vampire's bane can be seen as two different morphs for two different situations. However, I usually go for Reflective light because usually it's more useful. No matter I don't play stamina Templar I would still love to see a stamina morph on this skill instead of two way too similar morphs for magicka.

I could also go on with my list and provide a full explanation why I personally think this skill or passive is, or is not, good (at least for magicka Templars in PVE).

Drdeath20

Spear wall is a very narrow passive. One must 1st must have a aedric spear ability slotted to block 8% of melee damage. Its not the worst passive if your tankplar uses crescent shield over bone shield but its definetly weak for its exclusivity.

Enduring rays again another narrow passive that only affects a handful of skills by buffing them from bad to average at best. This shouldnt be a passive, the duration increase should just be part of the base skill. Some of the other classes have 1 passive which work similarily but templar have the most with 2 (arguably 3).

Sacred ground use to be called focus healing and that would give us 30% more healing. It then got nerfed to major mending and now its been nerfed again to minor mending and a snare. Its not a bad passive but templars lost a powerful passive and gained nothing in return. Its not like we were a top 2 class before.

Healing ritual costs too much and has too small of a range for an instant heal. As a trial healer i would rather use healing springs because i can time the incomming damage (from range) and lay down a few springs a second before. With soft stacking and hard stacking over healing (massive HoTs) is preferred over 1 big instant heal. In pvp this seems to be for ball groups stacking on the crown and again i would rather spam healing springs. Not viable in most dungeons because you need to stack close to the healer.

The world skill alternatives to ritual are much more preferable. Ill admit that for solo pvp removing 5 effects makes purifying ritual the best for that scenario. For pvp groups prefer purge. For pve healers siphon lasts 20 seconds, heals every 1 second, can be targeted from a distance and provides magicka steal. Alter also has the same range as ritual and a synergy but heals every 1 second and last longer. Rituals weakness is that the heal/damage every 2 seconds is not strong enough in comparrison. Its not a strong HoT and its a very weak DoT. It just seems like what they intended from this skill and what we got are 2 different things. If its suppose to be a conditional HoT (by the radius of the puddle) then it should heal every second. Ritual of retribution needs to pick a direction.

Rune is great in theory. The 1 morph is perfect. Reduces damage and increases healing recieved by 8%. What a great tank, pvp and just all around morph. Its rune focus that i take exception with. The plus sides are its cheap and it increases magicka recovery pretty significantly. Its problems are that it has no active effects and its duration is far too short for sustain in a mobile tamriel. Its really needs its duration increased and even then, at end game where does rune fit on your bar?

Elsterchen

@Drdeath20 please have a look at the cost of rune again. Remember when exactly you use it: in fast paced combat !

The noted duration is a fake argument, neither PVE nor PVP scenarios allow you to stand in your own rune focus for the whole time! The 8s you get upon leaving the rune is much more accurate (for PVP!) ... and taking this into account our crappy rune focus is as costly as wardens group buff!

Drdeath20

I wish radiant oppresion had its original damage but its range reduced to something like 15 meters. That way there is counterplay.

I wish that radiant glory was no longer a channel but worked like impale. Instant cast up to 28meters.

Drdeath20

I wish solar barrage was its own skill and worked like acceleration (psyjic skill line). 1 morph adds more bursts but has a cast time and the other morph is instant cast but with fewer bursts.

I wish solar flare had 2 dark flare type morphs.
1 morph defiles with a crazy cast time the other morph loses defile but has a % chance to be insta casted.

And soo soo much more but my fingers hurt and soo does my brain.

I can see the good intentions with skill but its pretty clear that the vision was lost along the way

technohic

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I wish radiant oppresion had its original damage but its range reduced to something like 15 meters. That way there is counterplay.

I wish that radiant glory was no longer a channel but worked like impale. Instant cast up to 28meters.

Like the first part but not the second so much. Impales is usually United because the threshold is so low, the spammable you use might as well be used again.

The first part is what they should have done to begin with. The issue was not the ability on a DPS Templar but rather it getting spammed from some support from the back of the Zerg. I’d even go so far as making it more melee range.

Maybe radiant glory would do the damage and range it does now but the healing part also heals allies in the beams path?

Drdeath20

technohic wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I wish radiant oppresion had its original damage but its range reduced to something like 15 meters. That way there is counterplay.

I wish that radiant glory was no longer a channel but worked like impale. Instant cast up to 28meters.

Like the first part but not the second so much. Impales is usually United because the threshold is so low, the spammable you use might as well be used again.

The first part is what they should have done to begin with. The issue was not the ability on a DPS Templar but rather it getting spammed from some support from the back of the Zerg. I’d even go so far as making it more melee range.

Maybe radiant glory would do the damage and range it does now but the healing part also heals allies in the beams path?

Radiant glory is stamina execute

BohnT

Drdeath20 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I wish radiant oppresion had its original damage but its range reduced to something like 15 meters. That way there is counterplay.

I wish that radiant glory was no longer a channel but worked like impale. Instant cast up to 28meters.

Like the first part but not the second so much. Impales is usually United because the threshold is so low, the spammable you use might as well be used again.

The first part is what they should have done to begin with. The issue was not the ability on a DPS Templar but rather it getting spammed from some support from the back of the Zerg. I’d even go so far as making it more melee range.

Maybe radiant glory would do the damage and range it does now but the healing part also heals allies in the beams path?

Radiant glory is stamina execute

Stamplar has some issues but a Stamina Radiant glory execute isn't high on the list not even close

Lum1on

I don't really understand why people want to have same skills than other classes already have? Of course you can compare the effectiveness and how they work, but what is the point of having exactly the same skills that work the same way for every class?

Templars were originally designed to be in melee range (at least that's the expression I've goten from, for example, Puncturing strikes) that has all these powerful channeled attacks and a "house" to build to sustain and survive better in fights. However, this just simply doesn't work anymore because of the nerfs to, aforesaid, Puncturing strikes, Solar flare, Radiant destruction, etc. Therefore we're basically forced to be in range now, have the same spammable skill than any other class and even without an execute that used to be the most unique thing for us in end game PVE fights.

I do not like the idea of "forcing" the class to be in range if there is an original idea behind the class to make it melee. Or to make the execute work in a same way than other classes have it. Or that if you get something from a skill, everybody should have it.

Not every skill has to be the same for every class. That's the beauty in MMORPGs (and in ESO) that you get to choose what to do, but to be the most efficient you need to have a certain class and role. Of course there should be situations where this class is better than the other, but not that they are all equally good at that very specific thing and provide exactly the same (de)buffs.

This doesn't mean that Templars wouldn't need a change. Of course they need. But still ZOS should think about Templars the same way they looked at it in the design or in pre-production phase.

Drdeath20

templars epitomize a lazy class design.

"Hey bob were running out of time, what should we do with this class?"

"Idk joe maybe give them a purge"

"Theres already a purge that exists bob"

"Well joe, we will have it so it purges more effects"

"That would be too OP bob"

"Oh dont worry joe theres a 20 second cool down soo it will be less useful than a world skill"

"Bob your a genius"

PaixRomanus

Purifying Light and Power of the Light need a rework, specifically, the damage caps need to be removed. Now I know it sounds like it would be broken because it copies the damage done over 6 seconds, however, nightblades are capable, in some cases, of 71k spectral bows and 100k+ executes (templar execute can reach 200k+ damage over the channel but 5 nightblade executes can reach 200-500k) and when the values of those skills aren't that high they are certainly don't get a handicap from a damage cap. Even sorcerers crystal frags have higher damage potential.
I would actually like the skill to work more like Grim Resolve and its morph. Meaning the beam could be proc'd after 5 light attacks after it is placed on the target and the skill would have similar damage numbers to make the templar closer in damage output to the other classes. By the way the skills would still be useful in PvP since I am not prosing removing the effects of either of them offer, just the way the abilities behave in terms of their damage output.

Once upon a time the damage cap was needed on this skill because it had the potential to provide some of the highest burst in the game, but times have changed and this skill and its morphs needs to be reexamined.

Drdeath20

PaixRomanus wrote: »

Purifying Light and Power of the Light need a rework, specifically, the damage caps need to be removed. Now I know it sounds like it would be broken because it copies the damage done over 6 seconds, however, nightblades are capable, in some cases, of 71k spectral bows and 100k+ executes (templar execute can reach 200k+ damage over the channel but 5 nightblade executes can reach 200-500k) and when the values of those skills aren't that high they are certainly don't get a handicap from a damage cap. Even sorcerers crystal frags have higher damage potential.
I would actually like the skill to work more like Grim Resolve and its morph. Meaning the beam could be proc'd after 5 light attacks after it is placed on the target and the skill would have similar damage numbers to make the templar closer in damage output to the other classes. By the way the skills would still be useful in PvP since I am not prosing removing the effects of either of them offer, just the way the abilities behave in terms of their damage output.

Once upon a time the damage cap was needed on this skill because it had the potential to provide some of the highest burst in the game, but times have changed and this skill and its morphs needs to be reexamined.

I agree. It just seems like developers havent actually looked at templars anytime recently.

Darkmage1337

PaixRomanus wrote: »

Purifying Light and Power of the Light need a rework, specifically, the damage caps need to be removed. Now I know it sounds like it would be broken because it copies the damage done over 6 seconds, however, nightblades are capable, in some cases, of 71k spectral bows and 100k+ executes (templar execute can reach 200k+ damage over the channel but 5 nightblade executes can reach 200-500k) and when the values of those skills aren't that high they are certainly don't get a handicap from a damage cap. Even sorcerers crystal frags have higher damage potential.
I would actually like the skill to work more like Grim Resolve and its morph. Meaning the beam could be proc'd after 5 light attacks after it is placed on the target and the skill would have similar damage numbers to make the templar closer in damage output to the other classes. By the way the skills would still be useful in PvP since I am not prosing removing the effects of either of them offer, just the way the abilities behave in terms of their damage output.

Once upon a time the damage cap was needed on this skill because it had the potential to provide some of the highest burst in the game, but times have changed and this skill and its morphs needs to be reexamined.

In addition, I personally would like to see that Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light should function similar to Nightblades' Marked Target/Reaper's Mark skill in that, an enemy (NPC) doesn't immediately agro you upon casting the ability.
Nightblades are able to use their Mark in or out of stealth and their Mark will stick to an enemy NPC without them attacking you, until you follow up with a combo.

Whereas with Templars' Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light skill, casting and applying it to an enemy (NPC), the NPC immediately agros you, which applies pressure and makes you have to use your damage combo that much faster. On top of the fact that Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light lasts like 6 seconds versus NB's Mark lasting 20-24 seconds or so, which is 3 times longer.

Overall, Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light ability duration should be increased, the maximum damage copied value should be increased, and the ability should not agro enemy NPCs upon ability activation, similar to NB's Marked Target ability.

technohic

If we start increasing damage cap and duration, we’d have to give up copying other players damage. Are we good with that? I think I’d actually prefer just the amount copied increased at that point to get my burst every 6 seconds rather than wait 20-30. That’s an eternity in PvP. Then I’m not sure how PVE Templars would feel about losing that group synergy. I’m not sure this would be the he battle I chose to fight.

Darkmage1337

technohic wrote: »

If we start increasing damage cap and duration, we’d have to give up copying other players damage. Are we good with that? I think I’d actually prefer just the amount copied increased at that point to get my burst every 6 seconds rather than wait 20-30. That’s an eternity in PvP. Then I’m not sure how PVE Templars would feel about losing that group synergy. I’m not sure this would be the he battle I chose to fight.

If there was an ability duration increase, it would be for until the damage cap was reached. (E.g. the ability sticks for 20-30 seconds or until the copied damage value is reached.)
Otherwise, increase the copied damage value and make the ability usable outside of combat, like NB's Marked Target.

EDIT: my 2nd suggestion doesn't effect PVP much except for the fact that casting Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light would remove you from stealth upon casting the ability, unlike Marked Target. But Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light already does that anyway; so, it would be more helpful for PVE and/or soling, in general if Backlash/Purifying Light/Power of the Light did not immediately agro whatever it is your are targeting.

hedna123b14_ESO

1. Drop execute threshold to 25%, remove magicka scaling, buff damage by 100%.
2. Fix backlash bug, (optional = increase initial damage).
3. Buff vamp bane dot by a 75%, reduce vamp bane initial hit by 75%
4. Make Solar Barrage an instant cast, reduce damage by half and make it tick every second.

NBrookus

I'm fine with removing the damage cap for Light to reward riskier high dps templar playstyle, but it HAS to only copy the player's damage if so. And needs to be a relatively short duration. 6 seconds is good. If it's much more, the damage will get too high in PVP to be counter-played for everyone that doesn't have a class purge.

The problem with 20-30 seconds in PVP to reach a damage cap is that the caster is probably either dead by then or else it was no help in bursting the enemy.