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[Class Rep] Nightblade Feedback Thread

  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    I'd like a more compelling reason to choose soul harvest over incap in pvp. And by that I don't mean just nerf incap. If incap is nerfed and soul harvest is left as is, I'd just end up using soul tether again.

    Yup about tether.

    Did you use SH back when it was bugged and undodgeable (Morrowind through Clockwork City)? Did that feel like it was enough of a draw to compete with Incap? What would you personally like to see added to Soul Harvest.
    Kena
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Sedrethi wrote: »
    So, having been a Magicka Nightblade since day one, I think I know what I'm talking about regarding my first point:

    1. How many instances of Major Expedition do we need from just our class abilities alone?! Cripple. Path of Darkness. Double Take (Blur morph). It feels overdone and I think some of this could be switched up a little. I'd say Major Expedition still be tied to Cripple (and morphs) since it's a "powerful" effect that should be concentrated on a single target. Perhaps change Path of Darkness (and morphs) to offer Minor Expedition and allow it to affect groupmates who also step into the path for group utility/convenience. Double Take can be left as is, seeing as that is more of a personal choice when morphing and it also doesn't break stealth when cast, which gives it some niche use.

    2. More synergies would be welcome. We have all of two in Consuming Darkness and Soul Shred. While Nightblades do have other team-play options, I feel like a lot of them are lackluster. Built-in passive healing (Funnel Health, Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, Soul Siphon) is—again—overdone. For example, Mark Target could offer a Synergy that allows a specified amount of teammate(s) to share the "reward" of healing (or some other bonus) received upon killing a target. Path of Darkness could offer a synergy that grants Minor Evasion to allies in the path. That way they play better with groupmates who use Undaunted passives and sets that activate by triggering synergies, such as Roar of Alkosh and Moondancer.

    I know, my pain points are less interesting, but I feel like Nightblades are mostly in a good spot (especially compared to the first year of the game's release...) at the moment of submitting this post.

    There are builds which use just path, cripple, or double take and not the other two. Nightblade is supposed to be a highly mobile class, so I hesitate to see one go. A common and related complaint is a request for in-class snare and root removal and immunity for mageblades -- i.e. it would need to be tied to an ability which stamblades wouldn't use.

    More synergies is a common complaint as well. Do you have ideas for what you would like to see them do?
    Kena
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Make dark shades a dynamic morph. You use it, and it continues doing what you last did at a % of the strength for the next 10s. I.e. Cast a dot, it will put a dot on the enemy for 10s and continue its normal attacks.

    For example, cast mutagen, it will heal the same targets over 10s, cast heal springs, it will cast one in the same place that heals over 10s. Cast a spammable, and it will too. Cast endless hail, and it will have one for 10s.

    The balance issues for DPS can be worked out too.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Sedrethi
    Sedrethi
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    Sedrethi wrote: »
    (Snip.)

    There are builds which use just path, cripple, or double take and not the other two. Nightblade is supposed to be a highly mobile class, so I hesitate to see one go. A common and related complaint is a request for in-class snare and root removal and immunity for mageblades -- i.e. it would need to be tied to an ability which stamblades wouldn't use.

    More synergies is a common complaint as well. Do you have ideas for what you would like to see them do?

    Thank you for responding, @NightbladeMechanics.

    I feel that most builds that would utilize Cripple, Path of Darkness, and Double Take would be more Magicka-leaning. As you know, most Magicka Nightblades would be running both Twisting Path *and* Crippling Grasp, although I do see Destructive Touch used in the latter's place every once in a while, so I suppose there is that.

    I could see an argument for Tanking Nightblades losing Major Expedition through my suggested changes to Path of Darkness (and therefore, to Refreshing Path), especially since many opt to go with Mirage over Double Take as their Blur morph. Stamina Nightblades would probably only use Double Take out of the three if they had to—and only really when in PvP.

    Hard to say.

    Rethinking the Path of Darkness synergy suggestion, instead of my suggested Minor Evasion bonus, perhaps it can be what you mentioned about snare and root removal/immunity, similar to Retreating Maneuvers. I still believe it'd be better balanced by dropping Major Expedition for Minor Expedition with the added ally support and synergy, while also making it somewhat of a middle ground between both morphs of Rapid Maneuver in the Alliance War skill line, and still promoting mobility and escape.

    To clarify (with my edit), Path of Darkness would ultimately give Minor Expedition (instead of Major Expedition) to the caster and allies within it, and cleanses and/or grants immunity to roots and snares on the caster, while giving allies the option to do the same with a synergy prompt.

    EDIT: Oops. Didn't think to double check this until now. I need to proofread a little better. Edited my Path of Darkness synergy suggestion above to make better sense.
    Edited by Sedrethi on June 2, 2018 3:32PM
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  • Swimguy
    Swimguy
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    I am a nightblade main. I will try my best to discuss the main things about nightblade that frustrate me.

    1: Piercing Mark. Its just not fun. 2 purges to get rid of the effects on a stamina nightblade gross. Reduce invisibility reveal time to 4-8 seconds to mimic when detect potions got changed. Just change the skill. Theres already tons and tons of reveal options in the game but this one is just toxic and lasts for almost a minute!

    2: No DoT mitigation if cloak is hard countered. Nightblades, especially medium armour wearers have very little healing. If we cant cloak, dots shred us like butter. I suggest bringing some form of purge back to the nightblade kit, not debuff purge like old dark cloak but at least a dot purge.

    3: Surprise attack is to front loaded. Armour Debuff should only occur when using with cloak stun.

    4: Mass Hysteria should not fear players who are not blocking. I feel all the cc's that counter blocking should only cc people who are actively blocking. Making it only strong against people who actively block.

    5: Assassination ultimate should gain back its feature to only stun targets under 50% or something like that.

    6: Assassination ultimate damage boost should only effect direct damage.

    i main nb in PvP and i agree. But the medium armor and dots thing is across the board. I feel like they should change the stealth perk on medium to add DoT protection because only the NB really makes use of the medium armor stealth passives and DoTs shred most players in medium.
  • BohnT
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    Do not nerf cloak, right now we have Sloads which is a hardcounter and the only thing a nerf to cloak will give us is more gankers that want to end the fight as soon as possible to never have to rely on cloak. If we take away the frontloaded burst (replacing the stun on incap with something else to keep it viable with soul harvest) the NB has to stay in the fight to get a kill, he might force a draw but he will not be able to simply run away and then try to one shot you again, if they have to stay in a fight to get a kill they will because there is no incentive to run away.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    LegacyDM wrote: »
    All you guys hating on cloak.remember magicka nb doesn’t have a class shield nor stamina to dodge roll forever. + there are over s dozen counters to cloak. Cloak is really our only defense without relying on shade morph. If anything it needs a buff.

    Top kek.

    Counters are trash unless you are an NB. Shades are great, and cloak, shades and shields that actually synergize are more than enough. The defense is OP in its current form, it does too much, but the one thing it should do, actually hide you, isn't great.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • RedRook
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    Magblade here.

    1. *Everything breaks cloak. It's wrecking the playstyle I enjoy with this class (I'm aware there are other powerful playstyles). I know people don't love getting murdered from stealth, but plenty of counterplay exists without making this defense completely negligible. We're nightblades. We cloak. It's already not awesome trying to be an assassin with a destro staff. Cloak needs to work.

    2. We need a cleanse/purge somewhere, hard and soft CC and DOTs need some kind of counter within the class.


    * I exaggerate, but not by much.
  • MisterBigglesworth
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    Pain Point #1: Malevolent Offering doesn't need to exist.

    Pain Point #2: Nightblade is severely lacking Command Humanoid type spells.

    It's part of the illusion school. Just sayin'
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • RavenSworn
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    1)The class lacks a group synergy skill. This will add more utility for the class with the healer or tank role. The best choice for this is Path of Darkness.

    2) much has been done to alleviate tanking and healing for nb, thank you for the changes. I can't say much bout pvp but in terms of pve, Mirage / double take should switch places with aspect of terror. It doesn't make any sense for this ability to be in the assassin skill line when it's used defensively. It will also be in line with the shadow defensive / tanking tree.
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  • Micah_Bayer
    Micah_Bayer
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    I hate how easy my class is, there is no other class that can perform as well as me in PvP. My pain is how easy PvP is.
  • clv
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    Purely PvE DPS prespective. @js.c ingame.

    Merciless Resolve procs are DPS gates for high-ping players. As an Australian player at 270-320 ping in raid and vMA, getting procs at four stacks while reliably not letting DoTs drop or overlap honestly isn't doable outside of a target dummy parse, and therefore results in objectively lower DPS than someone with lower ping- the stack accumulation registers later if the ping is higher.

    There's not really a good reason to ever use Debilitate over Crippling Grasp. In the raid numbers game, the (albeit tiny) damage increase is preferred over the multiple application possibility, for which i can think of very few scenarios where debilitate may be preferred, and even then not by much.

    Though Magicka Nightblades do (admittedly so do Sorcs to an extent) get everything on a silver platter. Siphoning Attacks is a strong enough HoT as well as a noticable magicka sustain tool on its own, Merciless is a costless proc at cheap activation, Impale is a- with the long-ago templar nerfs- peerless, mandatory damage ability in execute that also offers the occasional, but appreciated magicka refund. The rest(read: DK and Templar) of the magicka classes find themselves hard pressed in competing, and I find it strange that this is the case due to the inherent risk of mandatory melee range. Nerfing, buffing, adding certain somethings that would increase the viability of other classes seems fine to me.

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  • ninjaguyman
    ninjaguyman
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    I'd like a more compelling reason to choose soul harvest over incap in pvp. And by that I don't mean just nerf incap. If incap is nerfed and soul harvest is left as is, I'd just end up using soul tether again.

    Yup about tether.

    Did you use SH back when it was bugged and undodgeable (Morrowind through Clockwork City)? Did that feel like it was enough of a draw to compete with Incap? What would you personally like to see added to Soul Harvest.

    I actually found out that Soul harvest was undodgeable pretty late i think so I didn't get to use it too long. that undodgeable part made it definitely worth using while it was there though, but it was mostly used as a way to seal kills against stam builds when they got low and would normally roll dodge any efforts to finish them off. To be more specific, yes it was indeed on the back bar, and I never really felt it was worth it, even when undodgeable, to completely drop tether at the time and front bar soul harvest(and slot some defensive ult backbar). Having an ult that stuns is just too good not to have somewhere one your bar for burst combos.

    I'm honestly unsure of what the best way to buff soul harvest would be though. But I can tell you what I think some of the problems with its current state are. The ult gen the morph gives just doesn't feel very helpful. I haven't been able to find a spot for an execute in my build since... well basically for the majority of my playtime on magblade. And to maximize the use of this ult gen I would really need some way of securing the killing blow on the target. If there's a friendly sorc nearby, or some stam player that has reverse slice, I'm probably not getting the killing blow. If I'm alone defending a resource, a guard could steal the killing blow still with a dot. Of course, if I time my burst right merciless resolve will be my execute, but the point remains that if there's any outside help from players/guards/etc, there's a chance that the possible ult gen from soul harvest is completely negated. An unreliable passive buff to ult gen versus a reliable stun( be it from soul tether or incap). I think most people would value the stun.

    However, even if the ult gen from soul harvest was changed to be awarded based on kill contribution, rather than the killing blow alone, other ultimates would still be chosen over it as a main burst ult because soul harvest offers no improvement to the actual use of the skill itself. The only reason I could see people might want slot soul harvest is the ult gen, so they could use other ultimates, better suited at actually getting them kills, like magblades in destro ult ball groups for example. We need a buff that actually compels people to cast soul harvest itself in burst combos, because all it is currently is a burst of damage. But how can we augment soul harvest so it offers a clear distinction with other burst ults magblade have access to? Incap, soul tether, meteor, maybe even soul assault. Besides soul assault, all of the other burst ults a magblade might use have a stun attached to them and they all offer an advantage that stands out. Incap is cheap, soul tether can stun multiple and makes the caster tankier with hots, meteor is delayed so it can be timed with fear for a pretty much guaranteed burst. I find it hard to think of a suitable change that does something different than what current burst ults currently do.

    I'm just gonna throw some ideas out there. They may or may not be the best ideas but just to get some people to think about it maybe. Whether the ult gen attached to the skill remains is up for discussion. Obviously we're not slapping all of these buffs onto the skill at the same time. Think of these as separate possible paths of making soul harvest worth using.

    1) Current burst ults already seem to cover most bases that might distinguish themselves from each other. So soul harvest could be converted into a defensive/utility ult of some kind by, upon casting it, you steal some health, magicka, and stamina from the target. How much resources are stolen? Not sure, but it makes sense thematically at least. You're stealing part of someones soul, so it makes sense that your character gets something in return. Sure, the ult gen that soul harvest already has kind of makes it a utility skill already, but this type of utility(getting back resources) might actually make people want to cast the ability itself. It could also help magblades in extended fights by draining the enemy's resources.

    2) The undodgeable soul harvest bug made people use it, on their back bar at the very least, so we could work off of that. Make an undodgeable soul harvest an official thing. And maybe even cause extra damage or a debuff upon hitting a target mid-roll or even if they passively dodge it. This is kinda lopsided against stam builds who dodge a lot, but even magicka builds need to dodge sometimes, so this could still be useful against them.

    3) Any magblade running without and execute would probably appreciate having one in some form. The 6 second damage buff against the target could be increased on low health targets. Or instead of a straight jump in the damage buff when the target falls below 25% health, it could be in a gradient up to a certain maximum level, starting from 50% hp.

    4) be super unoriginal and slap on stun on it.



    Edited by ninjaguyman on June 1, 2018 7:01AM
    Characters:
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    DC argonian magicka nb(pvp): Dominion Spy
    EP argonian mag nb(pvp): peacemaker
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    LegacyDM wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    LegacyDM wrote: »
    All you guys hating on cloak.remember magicka nb doesn’t have a class shield nor stamina to dodge roll forever. + there are over s dozen counters to cloak. Cloak is really our only defense without relying on shade morph. If anything it needs a buff.

    Top kek.

    Counters are trash unless you are an NB. Shades are great, and cloak, shades and shields that actually synergize are more than enough. The defense is OP in its current form, it does too much, but the one thing it should do, actually hide you, isn't great.

    Magelight
    Detect invis pot
    Caltrops
    Flare
    Shade summon (uncloaks/unstealth) other NB
    Various Class, weapon, or poison Dots
    Mark
    Sloads set
    Overwhelming set
    Various monster helms that perform aoe procs
    Defile? Don't remember
    Aoes e.g., whirlwind, hurricane, etc

    Trash you say? LoL. These are just the ones I took 10 seconds from the top of my head. Far from trash and any serious NB knows how deadly these counters are. I'm sure I could come up with a half a dozen more if I put some serious thought into it.

    Oh and what shields? Healing ward? Compared to a sorc it's pathetic and cloak as an escape should make up for what Sorcs get in the way of shields and streak. Or what other classes get as hard counters or inherent damage/armor miigations.

    Please explain how the defense is OP but the fact that it doesn't hide you is subpar. That's extremely contradictory. If it doesn't hide you, your dead. Period. That's all it does is hide you. Which it doesn't cause everyone and their grandmother has a counter. If your suggesting the guaranteed crit on shadow cloak is OP I would highly disagree. That's situational at best and crit in CP pvp is subpar anyways.

    The aoes aren't a guaranteed reveal and any NB worth their salt won't get hit by them. Remember, it's not just use AOE, and see the NB. Its run around and guess where they are. If you get hit by an AOE, you have either been outplayed, or need to l2p. Do T stand in red or be found.

    Same with mage light and flare. For the costs of AoEs, its a pathetic reveal that doesn't last enough if even works. And no pre mage lighting either.

    Then the poison and reveal pots also are massively sacrificial. Imagine having to run a potion to stop block within a limited range fro 1/3 of the time, sacrificing other effects.

    And a set, ahahaha, that is like saying shield breaker should be ran to counter sorcs.

    The fact is that the defense is in favor of the nb and is more costly to the user of the counter, which is bullshi, no other defense is. You could make an argument for shields, but it is not nearly as strong.

    The problem however is it is an eh hiding defense. Its absolutely broken OP in its level of mitigation which shouldn't be possible for a single ability. However, if you removed dot suppression and force missing outright without buffing it elsewhere it would be ***.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    RavenSworn wrote: »
    1)The class lacks a group synergy skill. This will add more utility for the class with the healer or tank role. The best choice for this is Path of Darkness.

    2) much has been done to alleviate tanking and healing for nb, thank you for the changes. I can't say much bout pvp but in terms of pve, Mirage / double take should switch places with aspect of terror. It doesn't make any sense for this ability to be in the assassin skill line when it's used defensively. It will also be in line with the shadow defensive / tanking tree.

    I think you could add Blur to the list of skills that would be great for a Synergy.

    Think switching Veiled Strike with Blur would be more appropriate than Aspect of Terror. AoT is sort of weird in either skill line but since its used for defensive purposes, it seems more appropriate to be in the Tank skill line than in an Assassin Skill Line.
    Argonian forever
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Turelus wrote: »
    I'd like a more compelling reason to choose soul harvest over incap in pvp. And by that I don't mean just nerf incap. If incap is nerfed and soul harvest is left as is, I'd just end up using soul tether again.

    Yup about tether.

    Did you use SH back when it was bugged and undodgeable (Morrowind through Clockwork City)? Did that feel like it was enough of a draw to compete with Incap? What would you personally like to see added to Soul Harvest.
    Not sure how much discussion you want in here so I'll keep it brief.
    Going back to one of my issues previously posted, Soul Harvest not being ranged is annoying in PvE when all other Magicka build skills are ranged (with Impale specifically being made ranged to help with this), would making Soul Harvest ranged add interest to it in PvP as well?

    That would be as overperfoming as it would be fun. Imagine people spamming it from zergs now without any risk.
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