[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

MassTerror23

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@ffyre , I usually prefer to have Vigor on back bar - for parses, I change that, it's also not important in trials so I can double bar the trap, but in 4-mans I prefer to have Vigor. Rotation is pretty cookie-cutter style:

1. Trap -> (swap) -> (2)
2. Endless Hail -> LA + Poison Injection -> LA + Caltrops -> (swap) -> (3)
3. LA + Rending Slashes -> LA + Flames of Oblivion -> LA + Noxious -> LA + Claw x4 (or x3 if ultimate was used earlier) -> LA + Trap -> LA - > (swap) -> (2)

I drop Standard after first rotation (when I'm on back bar again) and then use Dawnbreaker when ready instead of one of Claw casts. There are probably better ways (and better players), but if I'll cheese it up and cast Noxious more than once per rotation (for 100% of Fracture uptime), can get around 49k on 3mil with Relequen + AY (using axe + dagger for solo, 4-man and parses since it pulls ahead on live, but twin daggers for trials) + Kra'gh (I'm khajiit sDK).

I did try to put in something on the back bar's flex spot (Igneous Weapons, Eruption, even arrow spray for a little DoT), but however I turn it, four casts on the back lead to drop in AY uptime and whatever gain to be had ends up not worth the GCD. I probably could push it a bit higher by refreshing FoO and Noxious precisely when they run out, but rotation gets complicated, and again, the only advantage DK has over nighblade - easy circular rotation - is lost.

I didn't try experimenting with different traits on PTS yet, but likely will go double daggers (nirnhoned and precise instead of double infused) after the patch, and see where it'll take me.

What’s your blue cp setup?

Ragnarock41

Zekka wrote: »

Spiked armor should work like Flames of Oblivion imo, keep the magicka cost and deal fire (instead of magic)/physical damage based on your highest resource.

Except afaik FoO still does fire damage, it just scales from your highest stat. Spiked armor is a weird case cause it does neither fire nor poison damage. Its magic damage and that makes little to no sense.

Davadin

excellent discussions. sorry i can't quote from mobile? but definitely want that spiked armor's stamina morph and passive rework.

juhislihis19

I think we've had decent, very much doable changes brainstormed here. Mainly I see they are about fixing the Ardent Flame passives and giving 1-2 more stamina morphs for starters. I think the stamina morph ideas here are good, balanced and easy to achieve.

Can we have a class rep comment on this? I would like to see changes pushed through, and not have people write good suggestions here for nothing.

John_Falstaff

@MassTerror23 , I'll make it home and will tell properly - been hectic lately - but looking at the source I initially took it from (Liko's build), and remembering that I didn't do a lot of tweaks since then, I say this: 61 Thaumaturge, 24 Piercing, 52 Precise Strikes, 56 Mighty, 16 Physical Weapon Expert and 61 Master-at-Arms.

@juhislihis19 , I think Quantum have submitted a write-up on DK pains during last rep meeting, but not sure about details, whole program became way more closed after NDA was introduced. Quantum, you're still monitoring this thread?

SkysOutThizeOut

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

SaintSubwayy

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

@SkysOutThizeOut example pls....say what you think is overpowered on some ideas

juhislihis19

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

@SkysOutThizeOut example pls....say what you think is overpowered on some ideas

Asking for 1-2 stamina morphs and fixing our utter-trash-passives is hardly asking to be OP!

I'm almost done reading the whole thread. I've listed every concern and pain point that have come up and how they would fix them. Based on what has been asked for by fellow DK's here, I will come up with a compact summary of what should be done to fix DK's current state.


Most common issues I've read through, are:
lack of class identity
sustain/cost of skills,
useless passives

Beffagorn

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

Stamdks having a class with it's own identity, class fantasy and role and not being a "Generic Weapon Swinging Grunt" is apparently asking to be overpowered. Okay.

Anti_Virus

1. Stamina Inhale
2. Instant cast wreckingblow morph.

Edit.

Also you should consider making the shifting standard morph into a mobile standard where its on your back and you can move with it.

Thank you.

SkysOutThizeOut

@juhislihis19 and @Beffagorn a lot of what is asked for is overpowering. And if anyone is to complain about a class of its own, it’s stam sorc.

Beffagorn

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@juhislihis19 and @Beffagorn a lot of what is asked for is overpowering. And if anyone is to complain about a class of its own, it’s stam sorc.

So, you've just come to the dk feedback thread to complain about stam sorc.

Do it in the sorc thread?

jcm2606

juhislihis19 wrote: »

6)
Molten Weapons, great skill. I use it as a stamDK in PVP and also when tanking. But why is it so expensive? 4320 magicka, this has to be the most expensive class buff there is? In general DK skills are costly. Rally has a great heal, Major Brutality for 33s and cost 3400 stamina after passives. Decrease the Molten Weapons cost to 3500-3800 magicka.

I think the reason why it is so damn expensive is because it gives the buff to the entire group, so it needs a high cost to offset that. Rather than just reducing the cost entirely, I feel like they should just rework one morph at the least to only give the buffs to yourself, instead of the entire group.

If it were up to me, though, I'd drop Major Sorcery from Molten Armaments, so it only gives Major Brutality and the heavy attack buff, and change it to only give Major Brutality to yourself. The removal of Major Sorcery is just to make it less overloaded. This way, Igneous could be your group buff, while Molten is your selfish buff for stamDK, still offering the heavy attack bonus for magDK if you use heavy attacks a lot.

I feel magDK really doesn't need a selfish morph of this skill, as they already have a selfish source of Major Sorcery that isn't tied to a specific weapon with Entropy. StamDK, though, really doesn't have one that isn't tied to a specific weapon. 2H offers the best source of Major Brutality, DW has a source however it's on a meh skill for stamDK so you're giving up a slot just for Major Brutality (compared to Molten Armaments, where you'll get the heavy attack buff, Minor Brutality for 20 seconds, additional ultimate, and you'll restore 990 stamina each cast; and compared to Entropy which gives a very small dot (which can proc Skoria, if you use it), a small hot, 2% increased max mag and mag recovery, and the Empower buff for 5 seconds), bow doesn't have one, and neither does sword and board.

My opinion, at least.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Beffagorn no. So you can complain on this thread dk needs “more more more,” and “change change change,” but I can’t say I think stam dk is in a relatively good place and doesn’t really need a change, imo... right... yeah... okay... makes total sense... 🤔

John_Falstaff

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Beffagorn no. So you can complain on this thread dk needs “more more more,” and “change change change,” but I can’t say I think stam dk is in a relatively good place and doesn’t really need a change, imo... right... yeah... okay... makes total sense... 🤔

See, you, first, failed to come up with any specific proposal you consider to be overpowered, and second, you're advocating for sorcs. Sorcs have own thread. You can freely write there that stamsorcs need more more more. Nobody here is saying that stamsorcs are in good place, but we're discussing DKs here, and you're somehow not replying constructively to the pain points people bring up.

SkysOutThizeOut

@John_Falstaff I see no pain points with stam dk and thus see no reason to change. And continuing to come after me isn’t contributing anything to the discussion either.

John_Falstaff

@SkysOutThizeOut , what a coincidence, I see no pain points with sorcs either, in fact they should, as everyone knows, be nerfed. ^^ But, ah, others - no doubt mistakenly - described some things they consider to be pain points, you can start by refuting them and explaining why those aren't pain points at all. You know, contributing to discussion and all that.

Ragnarock41

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I see no pain points with stam dk and thus see no reason to change. And continuing to come after me isn’t contributing anything to the discussion either.

That is why you play mag or hybrid Dk?I'm sorry your actions and your words don't make too much sense to me. I don't see how adding one or two morphs or asking for combustion to not be RNG based will make stamDk op? Care to explain?

No class is truly perfect in this game, and clearly some lack more than others. Saying that ''I see no pain points with stamDk'' ,is a selfish sentence and can be said to show your bias against any class really. I just can't understand how you come to this result.

SkysOutThizeOut

@John_Falstaff idc about sorcs... they just have the least class skills for stam. Which is an observation and nothing more. But continue to be passive aggressive and triggered. Stam DKs are fine as is . The only thing I could get behind might be a stam whip. Outside that, it’s good

SkysOutThizeOut

@Ragnarock41 because I haven’t played that “hybrid” dk since the last video I dropped in YouTube. Since then I attempted stamden. Then went to stam dk and have had a lot of success running a medium armor build. So me saying I see no pain points is selfish.... and you all saying you see some isn’t?... one could say your asking for more for yourself... or because you’re struggling to do well on the class...
This is my third attempt on stamdk and I’m enjoying it now. The problems I see aren’t with the class as much as it is from snares or heavy armorbenefitting from too much damage while still being tanky.

John_Falstaff

@SkysOutThizeOut , oh my, first DKs have no pain points, now I'm passive aggressive... I see you're good at making observations, mmhm. ^^ Sure, ability to count fails you somewhat, DKs have 2 stam skills and morphs, while sorcs have 4 of them, but can't ask you to be good at everything, counting to four is such a boring task after all.

Well, bottom line, you still didn't address a single point brought up in this thread. I'll reply next time when you'll have something substantial to say.

Ragnarock41

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Ragnarock41 because I haven’t played that “hybrid” dk since the last video I dropped in YouTube. Since then I attempted stamden. Then went to stam dk and have had a lot of success running a medium armor build. So me saying I see no pain points is selfish.... and you all saying you see some isn’t?... one could say your asking for more for yourself... or because you’re struggling to do well on the class...
This is my third attempt on stamdk and I’m enjoying it now. The problems I see aren’t with the class as much as it is from snares or heavy armorbenefitting from too much damage while still being tanky.

I've been running a stamden lately instead of medium Dk, and found out quite the opposite. I'm having wild success compared to stamDk, outside of duels its completely superior to sDk, tooltips, abilities, mobility, everything. (in duels heavy Dk is superior thanks to corrosive, not medium though.)

I didn't even had any reason to use medium armor since stamden comes with superior sustain, damage and mobility already. I'm in battlegrounds and looking at near 6k weapon damage with 2300 stamina regen, excluding netch. And you're here telling me I'm biased/bad because I'm not happy about the RNG combustion and noxious breath.

This DK versus warden comparission is looking very similar to the good old nord versus imperial thing. And the excuses are all the same too.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Ragnarock41 for solo I prefer stam dk. Even duo. For 4 or more, I think stamden is superiors. And I’m running medium on my stamden and my dk because I don’t want to cheese off heavy armor. And yeah I think heavy armor is cheese.

@John_Falstaff I’m glad 3 of the dk abilities I use on my stam dk cost mag. It helps a lot with resource management. And 2 of them give me stam bacn which is another plus.

zParallaxz

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Ragnarock41 for solo I prefer stam dk. Even duo. For 4 or more, I think stamden is superiors. And I’m running medium on my stamden and my dk because I don’t want to cheese off heavy armor. And yeah I think heavy armor is cheese.

@John_Falstaff I’m glad 3 of the dk abilities I use on my stam dk cost mag. It helps a lot with resource management. And 2 of them give me stam bacn which is another plus.

You mentioned Stam sorcs being in a worse position that stam dks, yet me and you both know that stam sorc is a preferred class besides stam warden in terms of pvp. I would be more inclined to agree with you but most of the dk’s counter play to other classes has been removed several times. As a stam sorc pre implosion nerf, you had the ability to easily ult, spin to win, hurricane dot, and implode. On top of that, they removed the counter play to dark deal which was to bash, now I can only bash you when don’t have cc immunity which I find is ludicrous. My wings used to reflect meteors and my whip went through dodge roll, that was the trade off for having *** passives.

Ragnarock41

Beffagorn wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

Stamdks having a class with it's own identity, class fantasy and role and not being a "Generic Weapon Swinging Grunt" is apparently asking to be overpowered. Okay.

A ''generic weapon swinging grunt'' could be fun to play if you design it with passion, give it a distinct identity, a reason to exist. A class doesn't need ''magic'' to be cool, fun or strong. When I look at stamina classes, not just DK but all of them, I see that outside of stamblade and stam warden, all of them were lazy excuses, made with as little effort as possible. Its especially apparent with stamDK and stamplar, average players can't even tell if it was a magicka or stamina counterpart when it comes to these classes.

If they had the passion for a fun and distinct stamina class they could do much more than cheap copies of magDk dots as stamina morphs. So apparently stamina DK is just some grunt in heavy armor SnB(class passives suggest this playstyle), but it doesn't have any melee moves, no melee fist, no stamwhip, no nothing interesting that gives you flexibility or longevity. Its the good old ransack-la-bash for how many years now?

They could do so much more, like corrosive armor could turn you into a poison dragon,(and fire drake for magma armor, I mean necromancer is getting a bone thing so why not for DKs? I guess that doesn't make any money eh...), they could make stonefist a stamina morph, change one of the inhale morphs to poison, instead of a basic stamwhip they could do something completely original and class defining. Doesn't have to be overpowered to achieve this. Hurricane isn't overperforming yet its a class defining tool for stamsorcs.

Or they could sit there and do nothing. These things, they require passion and effort. If they're gonna be lazy about it they might aswell ignore it. The latest changes to world in ruin and noxious breath was pointless in the long run because they didn't put any effort in it.

juhislihis19

I agree that the latest changes were lazy. I just finished reading the thread and literally the most common pain point was: sustain

And what was done? Nerf Whip, tweak WiR (reduce DOT cost which already were the lowest costing skills!!) and give 2s snare removal to wings.

Fixing the passives would go a LONG way. Literally half of what's wrong with DK, would be fixed by tweaking current trash passives. Other half would be fixing few skills but that seems obviously too much.

Beffagorn

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

Stamdks having a class with it's own identity, class fantasy and role and not being a "Generic Weapon Swinging Grunt" is apparently asking to be overpowered. Okay.

A ''generic weapon swinging grunt'' could be fun to play if you design it with passion, give it a distinct identity, a reason to exist. A class doesn't need ''magic'' to be cool, fun or strong. When I look at stamina classes, not just DK but all of them, I see that outside of stamblade and stam warden, all of them were lazy excuses, made with as little effort as possible. Its especially apparent with stamDK and stamplar, average players can't even tell if it was a magicka or stamina counterpart when it comes to these classes.

If they had the passion for a fun and distinct stamina class they could do much more than cheap copies of magDk dots as stamina morphs. So apparently stamina DK is just some grunt in heavy armor SnB(class passives suggest this playstyle), but it doesn't have any melee moves, no melee fist, no stamwhip, no nothing interesting that gives you flexibility or longevity. Its the good old ransack-la-bash for how many years now?

They could do so much more, like corrosive armor could turn you into a poison dragon,(and fire drake for magma armor, I mean necromancer is getting a bone thing so why not for DKs? I guess that doesn't make any money eh...), they could make stonefist a stamina morph, change one of the inhale morphs to poison, instead of a basic stamwhip they could do something completely original and class defining. Doesn't have to be overpowered to achieve this. Hurricane isn't overperforming yet its a class defining tool for stamsorcs.

Or they could sit there and do nothing. These things, they require passion and effort. If they're gonna be lazy about it they might aswell ignore it. The latest changes to world in ruin and noxious breath was pointless in the long run because they didn't put any effort in it.

Oh, i agree completely. The problem here is that you're just a generic weapon guy.

Taking WoW Warrior as an example, they too are generic dudes beating people to death with giant weapons, but their class fantasy is built on doing that in a spectacular/special way that only they can do. They are the only class that has complete mastery of all weapons, that makes them unique.

On the other hand, stamdks are just a bunch of weapon/armor skills and passives. There's no such thing as "Dragonknight" in the entire Stamdk fantasy. There's just 2 poison dots that literally have nothing at all to do with Dragons or anything related to the Akaviri.

But as you said, creating a class with it's own identity requires effort and passion and there's none of both in this case.

Whether we complain, scream, cry or make inteligent well-detailed feedback posts, everything will be ignored and forgotten like the rest of the 27pages of this thread. ZoS clearly does not care about Stamdk as a class and each balance patch makes that more clear.

Personally, i've wasted enough time giving feedback about stamdks. I'll be joining the stamblade/stamden fotm train as soon as i get my race change tokens.

SaintSubwayy

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@juhislihis19 and @Beffagorn a lot of what is asked for is overpowering. And if anyone is to complain about a class of its own, it’s stam sorc.

still we're waiting for a specific example, please enlighten us which Ideas are in your eyes OP....

Ragnarock41

Beffagorn wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

Stamdks having a class with it's own identity, class fantasy and role and not being a "Generic Weapon Swinging Grunt" is apparently asking to be overpowered. Okay.

A ''generic weapon swinging grunt'' could be fun to play if you design it with passion, give it a distinct identity, a reason to exist. A class doesn't need ''magic'' to be cool, fun or strong. When I look at stamina classes, not just DK but all of them, I see that outside of stamblade and stam warden, all of them were lazy excuses, made with as little effort as possible. Its especially apparent with stamDK and stamplar, average players can't even tell if it was a magicka or stamina counterpart when it comes to these classes.

If they had the passion for a fun and distinct stamina class they could do much more than cheap copies of magDk dots as stamina morphs. So apparently stamina DK is just some grunt in heavy armor SnB(class passives suggest this playstyle), but it doesn't have any melee moves, no melee fist, no stamwhip, no nothing interesting that gives you flexibility or longevity. Its the good old ransack-la-bash for how many years now?

They could do so much more, like corrosive armor could turn you into a poison dragon,(and fire drake for magma armor, I mean necromancer is getting a bone thing so why not for DKs? I guess that doesn't make any money eh...), they could make stonefist a stamina morph, change one of the inhale morphs to poison, instead of a basic stamwhip they could do something completely original and class defining. Doesn't have to be overpowered to achieve this. Hurricane isn't overperforming yet its a class defining tool for stamsorcs.

Or they could sit there and do nothing. These things, they require passion and effort. If they're gonna be lazy about it they might aswell ignore it. The latest changes to world in ruin and noxious breath was pointless in the long run because they didn't put any effort in it.

Oh, i agree completely. The problem here is that you're just a generic weapon guy.

Taking WoW Warrior as an example, they too are generic dudes beating people to death with giant weapons, but their class fantasy is built on doing that in a spectacular/special way that only they can do. They are the only class that has complete mastery of all weapons, that makes them unique.

On the other hand, stamdks are just a bunch of weapon/armor skills and passives. There's no such thing as "Dragonknight" in the entire Stamdk fantasy. There's just 2 poison dots that literally have nothing at all to do with Dragons or anything related to the Akaviri.

But as you said, creating a class with it's own identity requires effort and passion and there's none of both in this case.

Whether we complain, scream, cry or make inteligent well-detailed feedback posts, everything will be ignored and forgotten like the rest of the 27pages of this thread. ZoS clearly does not care about Stamdk as a class and each balance patch makes that more clear.

Personally, i've wasted enough time giving feedback about stamdks. I'll be joining the stamblade/stamden fotm train as soon as i get my race change tokens.

Tbh you never know how long ZOS will make you wait. For stamplars they took so long that a vast majority of people who played stamplar quit the game or changed class. So I would say waiting is probably not a great idea if you don't enjoy the class. Just change to something you can enjoy as.

Onefrkncrzypope

Beffagorn wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

While I enjoy the ideas of some of the changes mentioned... y’all just asking to be overpowered.

Stamdks having a class with it's own identity, class fantasy and role and not being a "Generic Weapon Swinging Grunt" is apparently asking to be overpowered. Okay.

A ''generic weapon swinging grunt'' could be fun to play if you design it with passion, give it a distinct identity, a reason to exist. A class doesn't need ''magic'' to be cool, fun or strong. When I look at stamina classes, not just DK but all of them, I see that outside of stamblade and stam warden, all of them were lazy excuses, made with as little effort as possible. Its especially apparent with stamDK and stamplar, average players can't even tell if it was a magicka or stamina counterpart when it comes to these classes.

If they had the passion for a fun and distinct stamina class they could do much more than cheap copies of magDk dots as stamina morphs. So apparently stamina DK is just some grunt in heavy armor SnB(class passives suggest this playstyle), but it doesn't have any melee moves, no melee fist, no stamwhip, no nothing interesting that gives you flexibility or longevity. Its the good old ransack-la-bash for how many years now?

They could do so much more, like corrosive armor could turn you into a poison dragon,(and fire drake for magma armor, I mean necromancer is getting a bone thing so why not for DKs? I guess that doesn't make any money eh...), they could make stonefist a stamina morph, change one of the inhale morphs to poison, instead of a basic stamwhip they could do something completely original and class defining. Doesn't have to be overpowered to achieve this. Hurricane isn't overperforming yet its a class defining tool for stamsorcs.

Or they could sit there and do nothing. These things, they require passion and effort. If they're gonna be lazy about it they might aswell ignore it. The latest changes to world in ruin and noxious breath was pointless in the long run because they didn't put any effort in it.

Oh, i agree completely. The problem here is that you're just a generic weapon guy.

Taking WoW Warrior as an example, they too are generic dudes beating people to death with giant weapons, but their class fantasy is built on doing that in a spectacular/special way that only they can do. They are the only class that has complete mastery of all weapons, that makes them unique.

On the other hand, stamdks are just a bunch of weapon/armor skills and passives. There's no such thing as "Dragonknight" in the entire Stamdk fantasy. There's just 2 poison dots that literally have nothing at all to do with Dragons or anything related to the Akaviri.

But as you said, creating a class with it's own identity requires effort and passion and there's none of both in this case.

Whether we complain, scream, cry or make inteligent well-detailed feedback posts, everything will be ignored and forgotten like the rest of the 27pages of this thread. ZoS clearly does not care about Stamdk as a class and each balance patch makes that more clear.

Personally, i've wasted enough time giving feedback about stamdks. I'll be joining the stamblade/stamden fotm train as soon as i get my race change tokens.

Just want to correct one thing: Kinda hard to say this correctly. Lol. According to the database of dragon lore(not affiliated with TES) there are poison dragons. Straight up in their initial summary of dragon features.

But back to my pain points. I can go into all three but my heart is in stamDK.

I don't want to hear class don't have to be exact but every other class has damage modification passive and a passive Regen

I want a percentage based non conditional passives for Regen. I would also like a passive for damage. It's time. Nerf fury and 7th but please fix this oversight.