[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

coplannb16_ESO

Id love a zerg-buster. those unkillable stacked warbands in Cyro that spam aoes, heals, purge all the time as a morph of magma shell:

(Ultimate Morph - Earthen Heart) Magma Burst (cost 250, radius/range 10m):
When activated a burst of magma errupts from within you. All enemies cought in the shock wave are circularly pushed away from the Dragonknight by 20-30 meters. Each enemy suffers X flame damage and cannot use any skills or abilities for 4 seconds.

Basically the idea is not to kill them like a bomber, but to disperse the stack strongly enough that a similar sized opposition have the opportunity to kill some of them before they stack back up. The damage component does not have to be very high. The 4 second confusion (not silence, because also stamina skills shouldnt work) should prevent reshielding/cloaking/heal-spamming/purging etc.pp, long enough for people to react to the new situation and start to engage the now dispered enemy. Of course they can still block and dodge roll. This "confusion" effect would be unique and similarly to silence not be affected by CC immunities.

One could argue that an strongly improved Leap could do the same (if the Leap aoe radius would be improved and the knockback increased), however Leap is a strong, damaging ultimate and a skill like described is more utility in nature (as is the whole Earthen Heart skill line).
There is also a risk versus reward, because to execute it decently you still need to get in the middle of that stack without beeing killed or CCed. And because we neither have strong shields nor invisibility in our toolkit this is decently balanced on a DK (zero/low burst, low mobility class)

BohnT

oh boy hooray another 6 months without changes for stamdk atleast we get QoL changes for magdk i mean they really are unplayable atm...

HankTwo

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Id love a zerg-buster. those unkillable stacked warbands in Cyro that spam aoes, heals, purge all the time as a morph of magma shell:

(Ultimate Morph - Earthen Heart) Magma Burst (cost 250, radius/range 10m):
When activated a burst of magma errupts from within you. All enemies cought in the shock wave are circularly pushed away from the Dragonknight by 20-30 meters. Each enemy suffers X flame damage and cannot use any skills or abilities for 4 seconds.

Basically the idea is not to kill them like a bomber, but to disperse the stack strongly enough that a similar sized opposition have the opportunity to kill some of them before they stack back up. The damage component does not have to be very high. The 4 second confusion (not silence, because also stamina skills shouldnt work) should prevent reshielding/cloaking/heal-spamming/purging etc.pp, long enough for people to react to the new situation and start to engage the now dispered enemy. Of course they can still block and dodge roll. This "confusion" effect would be unique and similarly to silence not be affected by CC immunities.

One could argue that an strongly improved Leap could do the same (if the Leap aoe radius would be improved and the knockback increased), however Leap is a strong, damaging ultimate and a skill like described is more utility in nature (as is the whole Earthen Heart skill line).
There is also a risk versus reward, because to execute it decently you still need to get in the middle of that stack without beeing killed or CCed. And because we neither have strong shields nor invisibility in our toolkit this is decently balanced on a DK (zero/low burst, low mobility class)

Sorry, but that idea sounds crazy op and broken. It would be extremely strong against any build that doesn't rely on roll dodge spam or heavily builds into blocking as a main part of their defense, so it would basically be an I win ultimate against any light armor user who doesn't run snb.

Negate is fine since its a ground AOE that can be avoided. As far as I understand your 4 second 'silence' suggestion, it would be a 'sticky' debuff with 0 counterplay options, since you wouldn't even be able to purge it.

It's also not exactly hard to get into the middle of a ball group. Just wait until their ults run out, use an immovable potion and then gap close into them.

IZZEFlameLash

BohnT wrote: »

oh boy hooray another 6 months without changes for stamdk atleast we get QoL changes for magdk i mean they really are unplayable atm...

Just need universal DK changes like ultgen or cost and guaranteed sustain passives which would benefit both versions but I think as long as Wrobel is there, we won't see much useful change into infinity and beyond.

kookster

Top 2 as stamDK:

1. No class spammable.
2. No class utility in group pvp play.

ZoM_Head

As a Magicka DK i find these two to be the most troublesome:

1. Horrible passives for DPS in PvE or PvP when compared to any other class when looking at damage and sustain.

2. Lack of range, chains is useless in PvP since it has a range of 22 meters and till this day, this "undodgeable" skill is constantly being "dodged" and "missed" by other players. The lack of a gap closer or an effective damaging ability is a joke. I tend to spam stone giant morph just because of the range, give me a few sprinting seconds in Cyrodiil to attempt to close the game, while all other classes will ALWAYS reach their target, dodged or missed. In PvE constantly running around chasing a boss or adds with nothing but winding up a fully heavy attack (which takes far too long) with a destro staff is weak.

You people need to actually sit down and re-do a lot of skills for this LIGHT armoured melee DOT class, that you have not given any ranged (effective) skills, mobility, sustain, execute and absolutely horrible passives.

Barnsley

Narvuntien wrote: »

I am just going to say I am pretty satisfied with my MagDK PVE DPS atm, the summerset buffs are much appreciated.

Sticking points
1. So I play with 300 ping and the cast time on Eruption is extremely awkward for me, there is stop of animation of my character and I am not sure if I am lagged or casting the ability this causes me to double cast (this very expensive ability) or simply not cast it (cancel it) when I tried to light attack between my next skill. Could I get a better animation for this ability.
2. It is disappointing that Flames of Oblivion gives Prophecy but you still want to slot inner light because it also gives a lot more magicka and mag regen.

I agree with this. My main and fav is mDK PvE DPS and in recent weeks I am now sustaining through a 6 mil dummy with only self buffs. And very strong numbers are again competitive. I am pushing 40k but I am seeing 45k coming from the well practiced mDK's. This is exciting and a relief but...

My 2 pain points are 1. To be seen not as a potential liability to trial groups we need to have 1/2 ranged dps abilities that compare with our melee dps output and 2. A stronger damage shield allowing us to move more freely out of melee range when required by mechanics and not lose half our dps.

Xvorg

kookster wrote: »

Top 2 as stamDK:

1. No class spammable.
2. No class utility in group pvp play.

Imbue weapons could be a decent spammable for DKs but to get that, the passives should reflect natural extra dmg on light attacks.

edit: maybe faster light attacks

BohnT

Xvorg wrote: »

kookster wrote: »

Top 2 as stamDK:

1. No class spammable.
2. No class utility in group pvp play.

Imbue weapons could be a decent spammable for DKs but to get that, the passives should reflect natural extra dmg on light attacks.

edit: maybe faster light attacks

But it's not, it's really unreliable, delayed in a way that makes it very frustrating to use for the first time (not an issue when you are already spamming it)
Heroic is comparable but both of these aren't good spammables, they are jist what we have at this point so people use it.

IZZEFlameLash

Welp, given by the class rep meeting notes, we ain't seein' much changes.

kookster

Xvorg wrote: »

kookster wrote: »

Top 2 as stamDK:

1. No class spammable.
2. No class utility in group pvp play.

Imbue weapons could be a decent spammable for DKs but to get that, the passives should reflect natural extra dmg on light attacks.

edit: maybe faster light attacks

I don't want a guild spammable, especially one behind a paywall. With that reasoning the weapon skills are a fine spammable. But that doesn't give a class an identity, that just proves it doesn't have enough of one. Same thing can be said for stamSorcs too.

Xvorg

kookster wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

kookster wrote: »

Top 2 as stamDK:

1. No class spammable.
2. No class utility in group pvp play.

Imbue weapons could be a decent spammable for DKs but to get that, the passives should reflect natural extra dmg on light attacks.

edit: maybe faster light attacks

I don't want a guild spammable, especially one behind a paywall. With that reasoning the weapon skills are a fine spammable. But that doesn't give a class an identity, that just proves it doesn't have enough of one. Same thing can be said for stamSorcs too.

So we go for the stam whip and make both StamDK and MagDK the very same class? No, that's not a good decision imho, starting with the fact that the stam/poison whip get no benefit on any passive skill in it's own line.

stamDK identity should lean towards the Knight archetype, while magDK towards the Dragon. So as a Knight he should be the deadliest class with any stam based weapon. Period. Poison Dmg, to start with is neither Dragon nor Knight and it is absolutely crap considering the skills available. On the other hand, Stam Sorc, having a natural bonus and a passive execute based on physical dmg makes a way better knight than the Dragonknight.

As a side decision, or even one that complements the Knight archetype, making Stone Giant a melee hard hitting stam spammable couldbe a cool decison... something like;

"Concentrate all the power of a dragon in your right fist to punch an enemy for x physical dmg. The armor rating
of your hand item (gauntlets, bracers, gloves) increases your dmg done twice the armor rating of the piece"

Then you will have a reason to run reinforced gauntlets on a sDK.

But sticking with the poison archtype ZoS gave us and asking for a stam whip... please no. That will do no good for the class. Currently whip is a meh skill, Powerlash is the only reason why it is used and making it dodgeable and with a CD has hurt the MDK more than they imagine. Now, let's look to the morph they will have to change for a stam whip? Just the bad one...

BohnT

In the following i might refer to resource drain, the numbers i use there are calculated by skill cost / duration, if you want to know how much regen you need to sustain you have to multiply the drain with 2

Stamdk has a huge issue as it's currently the worst spec for any situation except for 1vX where magwarden is worse but in solo, small groups, organized groups and big zerg fights stamdk is ranked 10/10 for multiple reasons.

This doesn't mean that stamdk is unplayable or can't win fights or anything, it just means that playing any other class will give you far better results if you played them rather than playing stamdk.

For a long time until morrowind launched stamdk was one of the strongest stamina specs in the game, this came down many things and most of them have been nerfed into the ground.
Back then stamdk really was the stand your ground spec.
With the old battle roar, helping hands, old redguard passives, much lower block cost, skill cost and better sustain, a lot less skills that went through block, less bleeds (master weapons were crap back then except for bow/ resto), 2 classes had CCs that dropped block and kept you stunned even after you took damage (nb and templars), weaker defiles, Black rose, procs, old heavy passives

That aren't just a lot of things to list they also had huge impact on their own.

Helping hands and battle roar and redguard, heavy passives +Black rose ment that by increasing your max stamina you'd reach insane sustain while also reaching a damage output that would make your burst very deadly in terms of one full burst was able to kill most players.
Block cost received multiple nerfs in the past from flat cost increases over to double the amount of block cost checks (=2x cost) and then to a change in the formula that increased the cost for builds with maximum block cost reduction by 400%.

A long with these nerfs to the archetype of blocking and holding your ground the offence got many buffs, with morrowind the CP System got changed to being frontloaded which lead to a strong damage increase along with that we've seen the introduction of more CCs and skills that go through block like rune cage, time stop, buffed master 1h, sloads, additionally damage got increased by buffing light attacks.

This happened in the past and is just here to show how stamdk made it into the sorry state it has today.
Many of these changes were needed others are questionable but what's undeniable is the huge effect they had on stamdks.

So let's see what stamdks bring to the table in the current patch.

Stamdk gets from it's class the following skills that can be used:
Fossilize, fragmented shield, wings, volatile armor, Flames of oblivion, venemous claw, noxious breath.

These skills give us access to:
An unblockable, undodgeable CC that roots the target afterwards
Major mending for 5.2 seconds
The reflect of 4 projectiles over 6 seconds + 2 seconds snare removal
Major armor buffs, a 10m aoe with very low damage and a damage return on direct damage with low damage aswell
A 2.5k-3kdot that hits one target every 5 seconds
The potentially strongest dot in the game
Access to major fracture with an AoE that deals low damage

But that's not all we also get access to passives which give us the following buffs:
200 mag / stamregen if we poison and burn an enemy every 5 seconds +25% more damage on these status effects
30% snare for 3 seconds on direct damage (only venemous claw, FoO and noxious Breath)
3% more damage on venemous claw and noxious breath
6% more damage on noxious Breath

10% more damage blocked
12% healing received increase with volatile armor or wings active
5% more health regen for every draconic Power ability slotted
3300 spell resistance (~5% spell damage reduction)

46 health, mag and stam for ulti cost when using an ult
0.5 ult / s + minor brutality when using an EH ability every 6 seconds
990 stamina when casting an EH ability

We also get access to Leap a very strong burst ultimate that stuns and can be used from range.

Now let's look at the 3 important things.
Sustain, offence and defence.
How does a stamdk tackle these things?
Offence: stamdks will always use venemous claw and maybe other dots to start pressuring an enemy and then he has 2 options for spammables that can be talked about, one being the attempt of running with dizzying Swing and the other being using heroic Slash+la+bash

Dizzying Swing has a huge problem as it's impossible to land on a decent player as it has the easiest counterplay of any skill in the game, being dodgeable, blockable, cloakable and counterable by walking through the caster or our of the 7m range (in reality it's bigger than 7m as you can walk back a small bit when you start channeling dizzying Swing at the limits of its range and you will still hit the target).
As a skill that only lands vs bad players is worthless in the fights we want to win dizzying Swing loses the competition before it started.

The next spammable we have is the combination of heroic + la + bash. This rota has multiple problems, first it's extremely expensive.
Heroic Slash costs 2673 Stamina
Bash with 1h&s costs 1133 stamina meaning without further cost reduction we are looking at 3806 stamina cost everytime we use that.
As 1h&s has a lower damage output than 2h or DW the rota of doing heroic+la+bash is more expensive and weaker than comparable combos on other classes that have an class spammable like la+jabs or LA + suprise attack+bash (on 2h bar) additionally as we have to use the rota on our 1h&s bar we can't proc passive bleeds but these are especially important to kill people as the stamdk bleeds are far weaker than those and one single dot isn't enough to pressure an enemy.
Granted using the heroic Slash combo gives us 30 stam+mag/ s but we could get this buff also if we had a spammable as we could use heroic as a debuff/ buff skill like other classes do ( especially. stamplar) rather than a spammable.

In terms of burst combo stamdk doesn't have much to bring to the table, the maximum amount of burst you can have is a FoO proc, together with the last tick of venemous claw and leap + your spammable.
It also doesn't help that this whole burst is really weak and can be blocked. There are more problems but they'll be touched later on.

Defence wise stamdk is often refeered to as the tank class although this doesn't come from the class but how you are forced to build it as the sad thing is that DKs don't get much tankiness / survivability from their class.
You get 5% spell damage reduction, 10% more damage blocked and major mending + 12% healing received + wings that give occasional ranged damage mitigation and a heal based on your ult cost when using it.

The problem is how much damage other classes can avoid entirely as taking no damage is better that only taking reduced damage and that they have better heals even if they don't have access to major mending.

Stamplar can avoid a lot of damage with purge that also gets rid of defiles, along with the hot of purge(that is about as strong as the added heal you get when using vigor with major mending) and minor mending and vitality you are often looking at better heals and less damage received when you check your combat Matrix after fights.

Stamsorc avoids a lot of damage with how it's played as a very mobile class that it perfectly synergises with also surge gives you a heal that is stronger than vigor for the cost of only 116 mag / s.
On top of that the unbuffed heals of a stamsorc are in general stronger than those of a stamdk as stamsorc can get more base stats and with DD full damage builds are possible, DD also gives stamsorc the option to get Access to an burst heal that can be used really easily with the changes to interrupt in DBones and the mentioned mobility of stamsorcs. The most important parts here are the added strong heal of surge and the huge damage mitigation due to the high mobility.

Stamwarden is just well stamwarden, access to an own class burst heal, a dedicated very cheap healing ultimate, the best range damage mitigation in the game with shimmering, access to major mending even more class heals on top of high mobility with 100% uptime of major expedition with class abilities.


Sustain on stamdk is a tough topic as on one side it's the best sustain during block in the game but on the other side this sustain has its limits as stamdk doesn't get any x% regen increase passives and the passives you have come with several drawbacks in actual combat situations.
One example is helping hands which gives us 46 mag, stam for every point of Ultimate cost of our used ults, this can be translated to 46 (mag + stam)/ult point.
This would give us:
138 (mag + stam) /s from light attack ult
23 (mag + stam ) /s from mountain's Blessing
46 (mag + stam ) /s from WW hide
107 (mag + stam) /s from bloodspawn
138 (mag + stam) /s from tava's favour
30 (mag + stam ) /s from heroic Slash

= 482 (mag+stam) (maximum)

On top of this we can get 100 (mag + stam) /s from combustion and up to 990 stam from helping hands.

Now here comes the problems.
You only get the 46 mag and stam per up to the cost of your ultimate and not your stored ultimate meaning you will always lose lots of resources or you will spam your ultimate on cooldown which is even worse because you need to line up burst in order to have a chance of killing anyone. Also a build running tava's favour and WW hide and bloodspawn doesn't synergise very well as you have to be medium if you don't want to burn all your stamina to keep tava's up but then you are far more vulnerable of getting killed. Also when you avoid damage your uptime on bloodspawn decreases which translates to less resources again.
Our other passives also have weaknesses, in order to get 990 stam from helping hands we have to use a skill that costs at least 2700 mag and if you use the cheapest skill you will also be unable to use it for another 6 seconds (in duels), fragmented shield will cost you 4050 if you don't want to run fossilize.
Combustion on the other hand is very unlikely to give you anywhere near 100 mag and stam per second because first the only skill that can give you magicka is FoO which isn't used often in the first place while the stamina return can only proc due to maybe a poison glyph or venemous claw as noxious breath can be considered a useless ability at it's current state.
This leaves is with a single dot to proc a status effect every 5 seconds which is highly unreliable (especially when you start looking at your combat Matrix after fights) on top of that argonians and bosmer can't be poisoned while dunmer are immune to burning which renders the passive useless against these classes.

This means that our sustain gets either reduced by how you fight, who you fight or just in general because you can't run the things to optimise your sustain. Also with how sustain works on stamdk stacking into stamregen isn't as effective as it is on other classes like stamwarden, nb or sorc which all have a regen passive


Many people will point out that stamdk can get 100% major mending uptime while also having snare immunity and access to a burst heal in rally which gives them an advantage in terms of survivability when compared to the other non nb stamclasses.

The problem is that in order to keep major mending up 100% of the time we have to cast it every 5 seconds, this would result in a magicka drain of 810 mag/s, the next issue is that mountain's Blessing revolves around a 6 second cooldown meaning either we cast another EH ability along with fragmented or we accept that we can only have a 86% uptime on major mending which brings us down to a magdrain of 675 while giving us 165 stam / s via Helping hands
The issue doesn't stop there if we want to keep up wings for a 100% uptime on snare immunity we have to cast wings every second gcd and we'll be looking at a magdrain of 1755, even if we just want to have a 33% uptime on the snare immunity we still have to face a magdrain of 585 mag / s.
The question is now is it worth to have the rally burst heal and accept the very high magicka cost and the low snare immunity or is the amount of damage you can mitigate via the longer snare immunity with Forward Momentum bigger than the burst heal of rally and can we make better use of the magicka when we don't have to spam wings.

In many situations FM is still the winner and the "advantage" of stamdk is in reality a disadvantage over the things they could already use for a long time.
This is especially meaningful in fights were the wings don't affect your enemy (all fights except for magsorcs with reach and magnbs) in those 2 occasions wings actually have a very strong affect but those fights are rare and as a stamdk you don't stand a good chance of winning them anyway, neither are you very prone to losing them, in the end you just make sure that the fight will be a draw and then you are at a disadvantage as you won't be able to disengage when another player comes to help you unlike the magsorc and magnb which both have good disengaging abilities in shade, cloak and BoL.

Now let's check why stamdk is so weak in many situations.
Solo play: as mentioned above stamdk tries to be a pressure class that outsustains the enemy and eventually wears him down, well this might work against one enemy but with more than 2 enemies on you you are at a huge disadvantage, as you don't have access to huge burst you aren't able to simply kill one enemy to reduce the number of enemies so you can more easily kill them, other classes can do this rather easily namely magsorc and stamnb, stamwarden, magdk. This wouldn't matter if stamdk was so tanky that they could withstand this extra pressure but they aren't.
The next problem is that you can't keep up the pressure very long against multiple targets and that any spec that has access to a burst defence (shields or burst heal) can just ruin every effort that was put on to pressure someone.

Now let's look at smallscale here you have the issue that stamdk brings absolutely no utility that a magdk couldn't bring while the magdk brings much more to the table with more CCs, snares and more damage and healing. All other stamclasses bring more utility aswell even a stamnb is more vital for a smallscale group than a stamdk. Mainly because a stamnb can more effectively focus targets down, can get away to place a camp (something that you will need from time to time) and the opportunity to walk around towers more freely without getting focused and killing targets that are mindlessly zerging the other members of the group.

Organized groups: well you bring one rapids spammer and you will surely not choose the class that brings the less group utility with it but that is the same for stamnb aswell and stamplar

Zergs: The biggest problem here is that in zerg battles there is often a 10-15m gap between the zergs and anyone who dares to enter that gap gets humiliated. Also stamdk doesn't bring much AoE damage with it outside of leap that is bad in these situations because it often fails to connect leaving you helpless which will then get you killed and you don't have any ranged skills that synergise with the class or any class ranged skill (not that one would help stamdk anyway).


Specific issues:
Outdated passives:
As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Elder Dragon is absolutely useless as stacking skills from draconic Power only isn't worth it and other classes just get more health regen for slotting one skill or just for free.

Iron Skin is currently rather useless as block already gives good mitigation to the things you can actually block while being useless vs so many other things that will actually hit you, change this to work on all damage while blocking rather than just blocked damage, this would give dk a slight buff vs bleeds, dots and other unblockable skills

World in ruins is really bad especially for stamdk there are 4 abilities in the game that benefit from this:
Corrosive Armor, noxious breath, acid spray and trapping webs
None of these skills is viable nor does a 6% damage increase make them viable. From Summerset to WH the tooltip damage of my noxious breath on a viable pvp build increased by 300 freaking 300 that's before mitigation and before battle spirit.
This passive is not worth it because there are no good skills that benefit from it (unlike with magdk) and the skills that work with it are horrible

Combustion has the same issue as WiR there are just not enough skills that deal poison damage on a good stamdk build for this passive do be noteable.

Leap is the next issue on the list:
It's currently one of the most unreliable ultimates in the game as people will just walk out of it, dodge it, streak it or don't take any damage even if they are stationary and my personal favorite you hit the enemy but the server doesn't show it and then locks you out of anything and keeps you in a "leaping state" in which you can't use abilities, potions, dodge or anything but your character will just start the animation and then interrupt it without any effect.
And there is nothing you can do about this except for removing leap from your bar.
In the last 4 days 6/10 leap didn't hit their target or locked me up even if everyone of them should've hit their target (targets were dodging or walking)

The next issue is that even if leap works you have to wonder if it's worth using anymore as Dawnbreaker deals more damage overall, can be animation cancelled without giving your enemy a visual cue of you flying on him and with no delay at all while even if they block the dot will deal good damage something leap doesn't + DBoS will deal more damage vs vamps and WWs gives you 3% more wpn damage and all that just for 15 ult more.

First of all make leap reliable again and then think about changing it to poison damage to make it benefit from WiR passive and to buff combustion


Noxious Breath is still a wasted ability that's not worth to slot. The damage on the first hit is weak, the dot is weak, the hitbox is extremely bad, you are better off just using another ability before trying to pressure someone with that skill it's just bad and it will probably never be good without a complete overhaul or if you keep the damage the same but Cut down the duration to maybe 4 seconds so you actually pressure your enemy during the duration and not tickle him with 400-700 damage ticks.

Venemous claw has the same issue that it's outperformed by things like rending slashes (even non master) and the passive bleeds. For a class defining ability that's just sad. It's not as bad as noxious breath it's just stupid when you look at it.

The biggest problem stamdk has is however that there is absolutely no synergy between the skills of the class and the skills the class has to use.
That startsfrom by the lack of a good class spammable. Templars and nightblades have such Awesome synergy inside their class with their spammables.
Nightblades can combine cloak and suprise attack to a high damage cc that gets followed by an assassin's scourge, this combo gives stamnb the raw power to have strong burst without needing a delayed damage ability.
Stamplar combines jabs, burning light and PotL to a very strong backloaded burst.
Magsorc brings everything together so that the class can stack into magicka and then combine shields, curse, frags, mines and streak to create an individual and special playstyle that no other class has.
These synergies inside classes can be seen on any single class and the stronger those are tied together and the more they work together the stronger the classes are overall.

Sadly stamdk doesn't have any synergy anymore before morrowind the synergy was that you could get damage, sustain and survivability from stacking everything into stamina (even without active skills synergising it was very strong) this got removed completely which showed that there is no synergy inside the entire class.

This synergy can be created by doing multiple things:
1. give us a stamina whip that gets stronger when used on poisoned enemies (like powerlash on stunned / rooted enemies)
2. turn deep breath into a stamina ability that heals for a bit less but deals more damage on the second hit while also poisons enemies that get hit
This created a synergy with WiR, combustion, Warmth (currently useless for stamdk as you won't use venemous claw every 3 seconds to keep the snare on the enemy)
Also it gives stamdk a new heal and a burst combo with Deep breath into whip into leap.
3. don't give stamdk a spammable stamina burst heal, we see how it turned out on stamwarden and that's something we don't need more of in the game.



I think that's enough for now there is still much to Cover but i don't expect that this will change anything so i better not waste more time on this.

Before anyone starts and says i have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm just a salty stamdk main, well you're wrong then, i play all classes both specs in pvp from 1vX to small scale, i'm not in the mood to be more biased towards one class than another. The reason i wrote this is because stamdk is the only class that makes me Angry and frustrated even when winning fights because i always know that it would've been easier on any other class, dieing on a stamdk is even more frustrating due to this because more often than not i could've survived or at least lasted a little longer.

Please ignore any spelling mistakes or random words mobile phone user

tagging @Joy_Division due to the discussion in the class rep notes thread

Aedaryl

First, you are a salty stam dk.

You qq far too much and no stam dk isn't the worst class in PvP, that's completly false. Stam dk is very strong, a good tanky pressure warrior. The real problem is lack of indentity, synergy and the fact stam dk is a lesser stamden.

I think DK pressure need a bit love.

Make noxious breath giving 10% poison damage for helping venomious claw staying THE DOT, and make it 10m circular AoE so the ability can touch people moving around you.

Well, a poison wisph, I didn't though it was a good idea because heroic slash does the job very well. I didn't though about using it as support skill like templar does. A cheap poison good damaging stam wisph then seems a good idea.

For defense, dk are in the very good spot, some little passive like you explained could need small buff.

For sustain, the BR idea is good, but I also think the combustion passive should work like "when you do damage with a poison ability, you restore 250 stamina, can happen once every 5s" and the same mag side. This passive is far too much unreliable, especially for stamdk.


Basically I agree with this :

BohnT wrote: »

As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Elder Dragon is absolutely useless as stacking skills from draconic Power only isn't worth it and other classes just get more health regen for slotting one skill or just for free.

Iron Skin is currently rather useless as block already gives good mitigation to the things you can actually block while being useless vs so many other things that will actually hit you, change this to work on all damage while blocking rather than just blocked damage, this would give dk a slight buff vs bleeds, dots and other unblockable skills

World in ruins is really bad especially for stamdk there are 4 abilities in the game that benefit from this:
Corrosive Armor, noxious breath, acid spray and trapping webs
None of these skills is viable nor does a 6% damage increase make them viable. From Summerset to WH the tooltip damage of my noxious breath on a viable pvp build increased by 300 freaking 300 that's before mitigation and before battle spirit.
This passive is not worth it because there are no good skills that benefit from it (unlike with magdk) and the skills that work with it are horrible

Combustion has the same issue as WiR there are just not enough skills that deal poison damage on a good stamdk build for this passive do be noteable.

Leap is the next issue on the list:
It's currently one of the most unreliable ultimates in the game as people will just walk out of it, dodge it, streak it or don't take any damage even if they are stationary and my personal favorite you hit the enemy but the server doesn't show it and then locks you out of anything and keeps you in a "leaping state" in which you can't use abilities, potions, dodge or anything but your character will just start the animation and then interrupt it without any effect.
And there is nothing you can do about this except for removing leap from your bar.
In the last 4 days 6/10 leap didn't hit their target or locked me up even if everyone of them should've hit their target (targets were dodging or walking)

The next issue is that even if leap works you have to wonder if it's worth using anymore as Dawnbreaker deals more damage overall, can be animation cancelled without giving your enemy a visual cue of you flying on him and with no delay at all while even if they block the dot will deal good damage something leap doesn't + DBoS will deal more damage vs vamps and WWs gives you 3% more wpn damage and all that just for 15 ult more.

First of all make leap reliable again and then think about changing it to poison damage to make it benefit from WiR passive and to buff combustion


Noxious Breath is still a wasted ability that's not worth to slot. The damage on the first hit is weak, the dot is weak, the hitbox is extremely bad, you are better off just using another ability before trying to pressure someone with that skill it's just bad and it will probably never be good without a complete overhaul or if you keep the damage the same but Cut down the duration to maybe 4 seconds so you actually pressure your enemy during the duration and not tickle him with 400-700 damage ticks.

Venemous claw has the same issue that it's outperformed by things like rending slashes (even non master) and the passive bleeds. For a class defining ability that's just sad. It's not as bad as noxious breath it's just stupid when you look at it.

The biggest problem stamdk has is however that there is absolutely no synergy between the skills of the class and the skills the class has to use.

Sadly stamdk doesn't have any synergy anymore before morrowind the synergy was that you could get damage, sustain and survivability from stacking everything into stamina (even without active skills synergising it was very strong) this got removed completely which showed that there is no synergy inside the entire class.

This synergy can be created by doing multiple things:
1. give us a stamina whip that gets stronger when used on poisoned enemies (like powerlash on stunned / rooted enemies)
2. turn deep breath into a stamina ability that heals for a bit less but deals more damage on the second hit while also poisons enemies that get hit
This created a synergy with WiR, combustion, Warmth (currently useless for stamdk as you won't use venemous claw every 3 seconds to keep the snare on the enemy)
Also it gives stamdk a new heal and a burst combo with Deep breath into whip into leap.
3. don't give stamdk a spammable stamina burst heal, we see how it turned out on stamwarden and that's something we don't need more of in the game.

Enzym3

Another class with too many to list.

1. class execute
2. make more mag skills morphable to stam and the existing healing skills cost way too much.

I do very well on my stam dk but whats doin the most damage? non class skills.

Also - wtf is up with the +35% wings morph? when you cast this skill next check your skill tool tips while it is up - the damage buff (for seemingly no reason) are stronger than major brutality and berserk - it's been like this for a very long time and i should not be able to crit someone for 13.5k with 1 skill! - i'm complaining because it's happening TO me as well!

ak_pvp

Though I can make paragraphs of complaints and reasoning, it comes down to one major issue: DK is meant to stand their ground, and they can't, but they don't have comparable strengths elsewhere, like mobility, nor need to have it, as they just end up as just worse versions of other classes. This list is a med length summery of it.

Wings:
Too weak in open world, not possible to stand ground vs pressure. It breaks too easily when people are attacking as it has a hard limit. Change it to either: 3 reflects per person for 6s. Or infinite for 2.5/3s. Both of these are a lot less sustainable, especially after morrow changes and weaker for a 1v1 scenario, however better for openworld nad help it compare to cloak.
Sort what is and isn't reflected. Its obviously not projectiles anymore, because sload/bird are both projectiles yet exempt. Change to direct ranged damage. This adds bird, pulse, shade/twilight attacks, valkyn. Cripple and swarm become exempt as they are mainly dots. So the counter to wings becomes wait and pressure, it prevents direct attacks from range

Whip: Change it to proc directly on CCs. Its currently too avoidable with 3gcds to set up and preventable in each of them. (Avoid the CC/root with immunities or range, avoid the set up lash with a roll/cloak/whatever, and then also avoid the power lash with the same methods as before)
Having it instaproc would be better, since it streamlines the setup of PL whilst keeping it counterable at both stages, and the cooldown keeps it in check. It'd also guarantee the landing with fossilize, but instead of before when you would foss+lash+powerlash and both would hit since the first when CC'd, and the second since PL was undodgable, with the change, the powerlash would hit first, and an second normal lash if you used it would be dodged. Making it better for DKs to land, but not back to the old way.


Then just QoL stuff:
Draw essence: Refund magicka based on inital hit, instead of exhale's hit. Just so when you might need to use multiple times, or at lower mag you don't have to wait.
Range: Embers: 8, Talons: 8, ashcloud radius 8. You could even lower volatile and engulfing to make everything uniform.
Damage types:
Talons base+choking should have initial fire damage, burning talons keeps the dot.
Spiked armour: Fire dot+return, OR for volatile morph, poison and scale of the highest stat.

StamWhipCultist

What sDK lack - class spammable.
What would be the just thing to do - give us stamwhip.
What could stamwhip be - poison or bleed damage.

IAVITNI

BohnT wrote: »

.
Outdated passives:
As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Little caveat to this. I support the BR change to work like Balorgh, but change the wording slightly from "current ultimate" to "ultimate cost, including additional ultimate". Pairing sets like Alteration and Dragon with this passive is a creative manipulation of mechanics. Creativity, so long as it does not induce toxic gameplay, should be rewarded, not punished.

IZZEFlameLash

IAVITNI wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

.
Outdated passives:
As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Little caveat to this. I support the BR change to work like Balorgh, but change the wording slightly from "current ultimate" to "ultimate cost, including additional ultimate". Pairing sets like Alteration and Dragon with this passive is a creative manipulation of mechanics. Creativity, so long as it does not induce toxic gameplay, should be rewarded, not punished.

I agree that the creativity shouldn't be punished but I remember the Battle Roar calculates from the base cost. So, you aren't getting punished for running 2 ult cost reduction sets I believe. Could be changed this patch in a sneaky way.

DemonDruaga

Carbonised wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Goren wrote: »

2.) Flames of Oblivion
This skill had a great visual effect with flames around the character similar to the sorcerer's hurricane skill and now it's just a floating fire ball. I don't know how this has anything to do with a dragonknight.

This one definitely needs something. I get more out of Inner Light since it gives you 5% extra magicka and one light attack has more power than a hit from the fireball.

Many of us asked for Inferno to go back to a PB AoE, they can tweak the damage and effects so its balanced, and maybe Cauterize as PB AoE heal with some chance to purge negative effects each tick.

Hells, I've been here 3 years, and even I missed out on the old inferno, I started when it was converted to that puny little floating ball and I recall the immense disappointment that this was supposedly the "apex" DK skill in the Ardent Flame tree. What a load of bull.

Then they gave the awesomeness of Inferno to stamsorcs with Hurricane, and put our old signature skill on a monster mask set (Grothdarr), yeah, the DK community wasn't pleased that day.

It still hurts every time when I see a stam sorc ^^ absolutly loved the skill and had it often just running for the awesome look

J18696

STAM WHIP

sharquez

DK's asking for a buff to wings... My hecking sides. Wings does need to be tuned but it should be tuned to be dynamic, meaning per player in a radius thats how many reflects you get, so its not absurd in 1v1s nor is it useless when outnumbered. Right now if a sorc sees a dk they better streak their butts outta there they cant light attack, cast frags, or reach, and the other non reflectible options are too low damage and just healed right through.

IZZEFlameLash

sharquez wrote: »

DK's asking for a buff to wings... My hecking sides. Wings does need to be tuned but it should be tuned to be dynamic, meaning per player in a radius thats how many reflects you get, so its not absurd in 1v1s nor is it useless when outnumbered. Right now if a sorc sees a dk they better streak their butts outta there they cant light attack, cast frags, or reach, and the other non reflectible options are too low damage and just healed right through.

I don't know man. Crushing Shock has been making me feel like I have MA resistance even with 45k resistances. And that is unreflectable. I wouldn't call it 'weak' because unblocked, it can do some nice damage.

ak_pvp

sharquez wrote: »

DK's asking for a buff to wings... My hecking sides. Wings does need to be tuned but it should be tuned to be dynamic, meaning per player in a radius thats how many reflects you get, so its not absurd in 1v1s nor is it useless when outnumbered. Right now if a sorc sees a dk they better streak their butts outta there they cant light attack, cast frags, or reach, and the other non reflectible options are too low damage and just healed right through.

Dynamic wings which isn't as good in a 1v1 is what we all want. Its what we have been wanting for a long time. 3/4s, 3 projectiles. Per person limit. Tadaa much less sustainable, much better OW.

Xvorg

J18696 wrote: »

STAM WHIP

no, please... curently whip is just meh for mDK. ZoS will just change the dmg tooltip of Molten even without changing the extra effect (so it increases dmg on flame based AF skills).

Frankly, to oblivion with poison dmg. It is just the worst status. It gives nothing. Burnig at least is strong. Disease provides defile. Concussion and Chilled give great minor debuffs. Bleeds are bleeds and can be useful in PvP. Magic does not give status, but there are a lot of skills that are magic DoTs (that can be increased through spell dmg, like cripple).

The Uninvited

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Id love a zerg-buster. those unkillable stacked warbands in Cyro that spam aoes, heals, purge all the time as a morph of magma shell:

(Ultimate Morph - Earthen Heart) Magma Burst (cost 250, radius/range 10m):
When activated a burst of magma errupts from within you. All enemies cought in the shock wave are circularly pushed away from the Dragonknight by 20-30 meters. Each enemy suffers X flame damage and cannot use any skills or abilities for 4 seconds.

Basically the idea is not to kill them like a bomber, but to disperse the stack strongly enough that a similar sized opposition have the opportunity to kill some of them before they stack back up. The damage component does not have to be very high. The 4 second confusion (not silence, because also stamina skills shouldnt work) should prevent reshielding/cloaking/heal-spamming/purging etc.pp, long enough for people to react to the new situation and start to engage the now dispered enemy. Of course they can still block and dodge roll. This "confusion" effect would be unique and similarly to silence not be affected by CC immunities.

One could argue that an strongly improved Leap could do the same (if the Leap aoe radius would be improved and the knockback increased), however Leap is a strong, damaging ultimate and a skill like described is more utility in nature (as is the whole Earthen Heart skill line).
There is also a risk versus reward, because to execute it decently you still need to get in the middle of that stack without beeing killed or CCed. And because we neither have strong shields nor invisibility in our toolkit this is decently balanced on a DK (zero/low burst, low mobility class)

This wouldn't work. Simply imagine 2 DK's (or more) being apart from eachother. One moves the enemies in one circle, they reach the other DK who throws ultimatte and then which side would the enemy move to?

JumpmanLane

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

JumpmanLane

Fruity_Ninja wrote: »

Pain Points

1). Sustain is poor on DKs

2). Way too high of a resource cost, particularly on utility skills

3). DKs are continuing to lose their ability to stand their ground, that inherent class 'tankiness' that is signature to the class

4). Some of the passive are really outdated and not competitive with other classes

I use Alteration Mastery in duels for sustain; but run 2 damage sets in PvP because there’s lulls in most open world fighting. I also use 1 Domihaus and 1 Pirate Skeleton with the 2 damage sets.

JumpmanLane

ZoM_Head wrote: »

As a Magicka DK i find these two to be the most troublesome:

1. Horrible passives for DPS in PvE or PvP when compared to any other class when looking at damage and sustain.

2. Lack of range, chains is useless in PvP since it has a range of 22 meters and till this day, this "undodgeable" skill is constantly being "dodged" and "missed" by other players. The lack of a gap closer or an effective damaging ability is a joke. I tend to spam stone giant morph just because of the range, give me a few sprinting seconds in Cyrodiil to attempt to close the game, while all other classes will ALWAYS reach their target, dodged or missed. In PvE constantly running around chasing a boss or adds with nothing but winding up a fully heavy attack (which takes far too long) with a destro staff is weak.

You people need to actually sit down and re-do a lot of skills for this LIGHT armoured melee DOT class, that you have not given any ranged (effective) skills, mobility, sustain, execute and absolutely horrible passives.

I used to spam Structured Entropy (I know not a DK skill) which has a 41m range because it was so cheap and would proc Skoria.

Now I backbar Destro and spam Ele Drain, Structured Entropy, light attack. I wear Elegant and Viscous Death (1st 4 item slot passives are DAMAGE LOL). 1 Domihaus, 1 Kena (or the new Balough). Hits hard at range. Toss in the odd heavy attack if the enemy just won’t close. (Sometimes I wear 1 Domihaus 1 pirate skeleton).

Front bar is classic DK: SnB, Embers, Whip, Talons, Fossilize, Leap. Fun when folks finally close.

John_Falstaff

@sharquez , no offense, but sometimes PvP-oriented folks surprise me. In another thread, there's argument that medium armor's skill does precisely nothing for PvE, but there's an uproar from PvP people because they use Shuffle for snare immunity and want to keep status quo, PvE be damned. At the same time, same people call for nerfs to wings, and somehow they don't want to stop and ask themselves as to what impact on PvE it would have. Nerf wings, and the already half-empty DK leaderboard for vet Maelstrom will be even more deserted. Not satisfied with wings - all right, but do suggest some other proposals on how to mitigate the survivability impact in PvE the nerf would cause.