[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

ak_pvp

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Aedaryl

BohnT wrote: »

In the following i might refer to resource drain, the numbers i use there are calculated by skill cost / duration, if you want to know how much regen you need to sustain you have to multiply the drain with 2

Stamdk has a huge issue as it's currently the worst spec for any situation except for 1vX where magwarden is worse but in solo, small groups, organized groups and big zerg fights stamdk is ranked 10/10 for multiple reasons.

This doesn't mean that stamdk is unplayable or can't win fights or anything, it just means that playing any other class will give you far better results if you played them rather than playing stamdk.

For a long time until morrowind launched stamdk was one of the strongest stamina specs in the game, this came down many things and most of them have been nerfed into the ground.
Back then stamdk really was the stand your ground spec.
With the old battle roar, helping hands, old redguard passives, much lower block cost, skill cost and better sustain, a lot less skills that went through block, less bleeds (master weapons were crap back then except for bow/ resto), 2 classes had CCs that dropped block and kept you stunned even after you took damage (nb and templars), weaker defiles, Black rose, procs, old heavy passives

That aren't just a lot of things to list they also had huge impact on their own.

Helping hands and battle roar and redguard, heavy passives +Black rose ment that by increasing your max stamina you'd reach insane sustain while also reaching a damage output that would make your burst very deadly in terms of one full burst was able to kill most players.
Block cost received multiple nerfs in the past from flat cost increases over to double the amount of block cost checks (=2x cost) and then to a change in the formula that increased the cost for builds with maximum block cost reduction by 400%.

A long with these nerfs to the archetype of blocking and holding your ground the offence got many buffs, with morrowind the CP System got changed to being frontloaded which lead to a strong damage increase along with that we've seen the introduction of more CCs and skills that go through block like rune cage, time stop, buffed master 1h, sloads, additionally damage got increased by buffing light attacks.

This happened in the past and is just here to show how stamdk made it into the sorry state it has today.
Many of these changes were needed others are questionable but what's undeniable is the huge effect they had on stamdks.

So let's see what stamdks bring to the table in the current patch.

Stamdk gets from it's class the following skills that can be used:
Fossilize, fragmented shield, wings, volatile armor, Flames of oblivion, venemous claw, noxious breath.

These skills give us access to:
An unblockable, undodgeable CC that roots the target afterwards
Major mending for 5.2 seconds
The reflect of 4 projectiles over 6 seconds + 2 seconds snare removal
Major armor buffs, a 10m aoe with very low damage and a damage return on direct damage with low damage aswell
A 2.5k-3kdot that hits one target every 5 seconds
The potentially strongest dot in the game
Access to major fracture with an AoE that deals low damage

But that's not all we also get access to passives which give us the following buffs:
200 mag / stamregen if we poison and burn an enemy every 5 seconds +25% more damage on these status effects
30% snare for 3 seconds on direct damage (only venemous claw, FoO and noxious Breath)
3% more damage on venemous claw and noxious breath
6% more damage on noxious Breath

10% more damage blocked
12% healing received increase with volatile armor or wings active
5% more health regen for every draconic Power ability slotted
3300 spell resistance (~5% spell damage reduction)

46 health, mag and stam for ulti cost when using an ult
0.5 ult / s + minor brutality when using an EH ability every 6 seconds
990 stamina when casting an EH ability

We also get access to Leap a very strong burst ultimate that stuns and can be used from range.

Now let's look at the 3 important things.
Sustain, offence and defence.
How does a stamdk tackle these things?
Offence: stamdks will always use venemous claw and maybe other dots to start pressuring an enemy and then he has 2 options for spammables that can be talked about, one being the attempt of running with dizzying Swing and the other being using heroic Slash+la+bash

Dizzying Swing has a huge problem as it's impossible to land on a decent player as it has the easiest counterplay of any skill in the game, being dodgeable, blockable, cloakable and counterable by walking through the caster or our of the 7m range (in reality it's bigger than 7m as you can walk back a small bit when you start channeling dizzying Swing at the limits of its range and you will still hit the target).
As a skill that only lands vs bad players is worthless in the fights we want to win dizzying Swing loses the competition before it started.

The next spammable we have is the combination of heroic + la + bash. This rota has multiple problems, first it's extremely expensive.
Heroic Slash costs 2673 Stamina
Bash with 1h&s costs 1133 stamina meaning without further cost reduction we are looking at 3806 stamina cost everytime we use that.
As 1h&s has a lower damage output than 2h or DW the rota of doing heroic+la+bash is more expensive and weaker than comparable combos on other classes that have an class spammable like la+jabs or LA + suprise attack+bash (on 2h bar) additionally as we have to use the rota on our 1h&s bar we can't proc passive bleeds but these are especially important to kill people as the stamdk bleeds are far weaker than those and one single dot isn't enough to pressure an enemy.
Granted using the heroic Slash combo gives us 30 stam+mag/ s but we could get this buff also if we had a spammable as we could use heroic as a debuff/ buff skill like other classes do ( especially. stamplar) rather than a spammable.

In terms of burst combo stamdk doesn't have much to bring to the table, the maximum amount of burst you can have is a FoO proc, together with the last tick of venemous claw and leap + your spammable.
It also doesn't help that this whole burst is really weak and can be blocked. There are more problems but they'll be touched later on.

Defence wise stamdk is often refeered to as the tank class although this doesn't come from the class but how you are forced to build it as the sad thing is that DKs don't get much tankiness / survivability from their class.
You get 5% spell damage reduction, 10% more damage blocked and major mending + 12% healing received + wings that give occasional ranged damage mitigation and a heal based on your ult cost when using it.

The problem is how much damage other classes can avoid entirely as taking no damage is better that only taking reduced damage and that they have better heals even if they don't have access to major mending.

Stamplar can avoid a lot of damage with purge that also gets rid of defiles, along with the hot of purge(that is about as strong as the added heal you get when using vigor with major mending) and minor mending and vitality you are often looking at better heals and less damage received when you check your combat Matrix after fights.

Stamsorc avoids a lot of damage with how it's played as a very mobile class that it perfectly synergises with also surge gives you a heal that is stronger than vigor for the cost of only 116 mag / s.
On top of that the unbuffed heals of a stamsorc are in general stronger than those of a stamdk as stamsorc can get more base stats and with DD full damage builds are possible, DD also gives stamsorc the option to get Access to an burst heal that can be used really easily with the changes to interrupt in DBones and the mentioned mobility of stamsorcs. The most important parts here are the added strong heal of surge and the huge damage mitigation due to the high mobility.

Stamwarden is just well stamwarden, access to an own class burst heal, a dedicated very cheap healing ultimate, the best range damage mitigation in the game with shimmering, access to major mending even more class heals on top of high mobility with 100% uptime of major expedition with class abilities.


Sustain on stamdk is a tough topic as on one side it's the best sustain during block in the game but on the other side this sustain has its limits as stamdk doesn't get any x% regen increase passives and the passives you have come with several drawbacks in actual combat situations.
One example is helping hands which gives us 46 mag, stam for every point of Ultimate cost of our used ults, this can be translated to 46 (mag + stam)/ult point.
This would give us:
138 (mag + stam) /s from light attack ult
23 (mag + stam ) /s from mountain's Blessing
46 (mag + stam ) /s from WW hide
107 (mag + stam) /s from bloodspawn
138 (mag + stam) /s from tava's favour
30 (mag + stam ) /s from heroic Slash

= 482 (mag+stam) (maximum)

On top of this we can get 100 (mag + stam) /s from combustion and up to 990 stam from helping hands.

Now here comes the problems.
You only get the 46 mag and stam per up to the cost of your ultimate and not your stored ultimate meaning you will always lose lots of resources or you will spam your ultimate on cooldown which is even worse because you need to line up burst in order to have a chance of killing anyone. Also a build running tava's favour and WW hide and bloodspawn doesn't synergise very well as you have to be medium if you don't want to burn all your stamina to keep tava's up but then you are far more vulnerable of getting killed. Also when you avoid damage your uptime on bloodspawn decreases which translates to less resources again.
Our other passives also have weaknesses, in order to get 990 stam from helping hands we have to use a skill that costs at least 2700 mag and if you use the cheapest skill you will also be unable to use it for another 6 seconds (in duels), fragmented shield will cost you 4050 if you don't want to run fossilize.
Combustion on the other hand is very unlikely to give you anywhere near 100 mag and stam per second because first the only skill that can give you magicka is FoO which isn't used often in the first place while the stamina return can only proc due to maybe a poison glyph or venemous claw as noxious breath can be considered a useless ability at it's current state.
This leaves is with a single dot to proc a status effect every 5 seconds which is highly unreliable (especially when you start looking at your combat Matrix after fights) on top of that argonians and bosmer can't be poisoned while dunmer are immune to burning which renders the passive useless against these classes.

This means that our sustain gets either reduced by how you fight, who you fight or just in general because you can't run the things to optimise your sustain. Also with how sustain works on stamdk stacking into stamregen isn't as effective as it is on other classes like stamwarden, nb or sorc which all have a regen passive


Many people will point out that stamdk can get 100% major mending uptime while also having snare immunity and access to a burst heal in rally which gives them an advantage in terms of survivability when compared to the other non nb stamclasses.

The problem is that in order to keep major mending up 100% of the time we have to cast it every 5 seconds, this would result in a magicka drain of 810 mag/s, the next issue is that mountain's Blessing revolves around a 6 second cooldown meaning either we cast another EH ability along with fragmented or we accept that we can only have a 86% uptime on major mending which brings us down to a magdrain of 675 while giving us 165 stam / s via Helping hands
The issue doesn't stop there if we want to keep up wings for a 100% uptime on snare immunity we have to cast wings every second gcd and we'll be looking at a magdrain of 1755, even if we just want to have a 33% uptime on the snare immunity we still have to face a magdrain of 585 mag / s.
The question is now is it worth to have the rally burst heal and accept the very high magicka cost and the low snare immunity or is the amount of damage you can mitigate via the longer snare immunity with Forward Momentum bigger than the burst heal of rally and can we make better use of the magicka when we don't have to spam wings.

In many situations FM is still the winner and the "advantage" of stamdk is in reality a disadvantage over the things they could already use for a long time.
This is especially meaningful in fights were the wings don't affect your enemy (all fights except for magsorcs with reach and magnbs) in those 2 occasions wings actually have a very strong affect but those fights are rare and as a stamdk you don't stand a good chance of winning them anyway, neither are you very prone to losing them, in the end you just make sure that the fight will be a draw and then you are at a disadvantage as you won't be able to disengage when another player comes to help you unlike the magsorc and magnb which both have good disengaging abilities in shade, cloak and BoL.

Now let's check why stamdk is so weak in many situations.
Solo play: as mentioned above stamdk tries to be a pressure class that outsustains the enemy and eventually wears him down, well this might work against one enemy but with more than 2 enemies on you you are at a huge disadvantage, as you don't have access to huge burst you aren't able to simply kill one enemy to reduce the number of enemies so you can more easily kill them, other classes can do this rather easily namely magsorc and stamnb, stamwarden, magdk. This wouldn't matter if stamdk was so tanky that they could withstand this extra pressure but they aren't.
The next problem is that you can't keep up the pressure very long against multiple targets and that any spec that has access to a burst defence (shields or burst heal) can just ruin every effort that was put on to pressure someone.

Now let's look at smallscale here you have the issue that stamdk brings absolutely no utility that a magdk couldn't bring while the magdk brings much more to the table with more CCs, snares and more damage and healing. All other stamclasses bring more utility aswell even a stamnb is more vital for a smallscale group than a stamdk. Mainly because a stamnb can more effectively focus targets down, can get away to place a camp (something that you will need from time to time) and the opportunity to walk around towers more freely without getting focused and killing targets that are mindlessly zerging the other members of the group.

Organized groups: well you bring one rapids spammer and you will surely not choose the class that brings the less group utility with it but that is the same for stamnb aswell and stamplar

Zergs: The biggest problem here is that in zerg battles there is often a 10-15m gap between the zergs and anyone who dares to enter that gap gets humiliated. Also stamdk doesn't bring much AoE damage with it outside of leap that is bad in these situations because it often fails to connect leaving you helpless which will then get you killed and you don't have any ranged skills that synergise with the class or any class ranged skill (not that one would help stamdk anyway).


Specific issues:
Outdated passives:
As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Elder Dragon is absolutely useless as stacking skills from draconic Power only isn't worth it and other classes just get more health regen for slotting one skill or just for free.

Iron Skin is currently rather useless as block already gives good mitigation to the things you can actually block while being useless vs so many other things that will actually hit you, change this to work on all damage while blocking rather than just blocked damage, this would give dk a slight buff vs bleeds, dots and other unblockable skills

World in ruins is really bad especially for stamdk there are 4 abilities in the game that benefit from this:
Corrosive Armor, noxious breath, acid spray and trapping webs
None of these skills is viable nor does a 6% damage increase make them viable. From Summerset to WH the tooltip damage of my noxious breath on a viable pvp build increased by 300 freaking 300 that's before mitigation and before battle spirit.
This passive is not worth it because there are no good skills that benefit from it (unlike with magdk) and the skills that work with it are horrible

Combustion has the same issue as WiR there are just not enough skills that deal poison damage on a good stamdk build for this passive do be noteable.

Leap is the next issue on the list:
It's currently one of the most unreliable ultimates in the game as people will just walk out of it, dodge it, streak it or don't take any damage even if they are stationary and my personal favorite you hit the enemy but the server doesn't show it and then locks you out of anything and keeps you in a "leaping state" in which you can't use abilities, potions, dodge or anything but your character will just start the animation and then interrupt it without any effect.
And there is nothing you can do about this except for removing leap from your bar.
In the last 4 days 6/10 leap didn't hit their target or locked me up even if everyone of them should've hit their target (targets were dodging or walking)

The next issue is that even if leap works you have to wonder if it's worth using anymore as Dawnbreaker deals more damage overall, can be animation cancelled without giving your enemy a visual cue of you flying on him and with no delay at all while even if they block the dot will deal good damage something leap doesn't + DBoS will deal more damage vs vamps and WWs gives you 3% more wpn damage and all that just for 15 ult more.

First of all make leap reliable again and then think about changing it to poison damage to make it benefit from WiR passive and to buff combustion


Noxious Breath is still a wasted ability that's not worth to slot. The damage on the first hit is weak, the dot is weak, the hitbox is extremely bad, you are better off just using another ability before trying to pressure someone with that skill it's just bad and it will probably never be good without a complete overhaul or if you keep the damage the same but Cut down the duration to maybe 4 seconds so you actually pressure your enemy during the duration and not tickle him with 400-700 damage ticks.

Venemous claw has the same issue that it's outperformed by things like rending slashes (even non master) and the passive bleeds. For a class defining ability that's just sad. It's not as bad as noxious breath it's just stupid when you look at it.

The biggest problem stamdk has is however that there is absolutely no synergy between the skills of the class and the skills the class has to use.
That startsfrom by the lack of a good class spammable. Templars and nightblades have such Awesome synergy inside their class with their spammables.
Nightblades can combine cloak and suprise attack to a high damage cc that gets followed by an assassin's scourge, this combo gives stamnb the raw power to have strong burst without needing a delayed damage ability.
Stamplar combines jabs, burning light and PotL to a very strong backloaded burst.
Magsorc brings everything together so that the class can stack into magicka and then combine shields, curse, frags, mines and streak to create an individual and special playstyle that no other class has.
These synergies inside classes can be seen on any single class and the stronger those are tied together and the more they work together the stronger the classes are overall.

Sadly stamdk doesn't have any synergy anymore before morrowind the synergy was that you could get damage, sustain and survivability from stacking everything into stamina (even without active skills synergising it was very strong) this got removed completely which showed that there is no synergy inside the entire class.

This synergy can be created by doing multiple things:
1. give us a stamina whip that gets stronger when used on poisoned enemies (like powerlash on stunned / rooted enemies)
2. turn deep breath into a stamina ability that heals for a bit less but deals more damage on the second hit while also poisons enemies that get hit
This created a synergy with WiR, combustion, Warmth (currently useless for stamdk as you won't use venemous claw every 3 seconds to keep the snare on the enemy)
Also it gives stamdk a new heal and a burst combo with Deep breath into whip into leap.
3. don't give stamdk a spammable stamina burst heal, we see how it turned out on stamwarden and that's something we don't need more of in the game.



I think that's enough for now there is still much to Cover but i don't expect that this will change anything so i better not waste more time on this.

Before anyone starts and says i have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm just a salty stamdk main, well you're wrong then, i play all classes both specs in pvp from 1vX to small scale, i'm not in the mood to be more biased towards one class than another. The reason i wrote this is because stamdk is the only class that makes me Angry and frustrated even when winning fights because i always know that it would've been easier on any other class, dieing on a stamdk is even more frustrating due to this because more often than not i could've survived or at least lasted a little longer.

Please ignore any spelling mistakes or random words mobile phone user

tagging @Joy_Division due to the discussion in the class rep notes thread

Your biased, that's the problem.

You brough a lot of good points really, but your qq just make people laugh.

Stamina DK isn't the worst on the 10 classes, stam dk is very good in duel, in 1vX and in smallscale. Stop it.

Stam dk is good. Stam dk is weaker than warden, stam dk lack identity, stam dk need more sinergy with his class skills : YEAH.

Stam dk should have more pressure.

I'm looking at Noxious Breath. The damage need to be buffed, but the way the ability land is also horrible and need to be reworked. ( make a circle 10 metter AoE around the player, so it will land when people turn around you.). Noxious breath should also increase poison damage by 10%, helping the skill itself but also venomous claws.

Dk sustain is good. Battle roar is VERY strong, giving 322 stamina, magicka and health regen in combat. The power of the passive is not only the good number, but the fact it's giving you all ressources.

The problem you pointed with battle should be adressed, don't make DK forced to spam ulti when it's ready to have a good ressource managment. The problem I have with making battle roar giving ressource on the ultimate used is the fact people would stack 500 ultimate and get 23k health, magicka and stamina when engaging a new fight whenever they want, resseting the . I think it should work like this :

Battle road : "When you use an ultimate, give you 46 magicka, stamina and health per point of ultimate consumed, up to 250 ultimate (a cap)" It would give dk better ressource managment and smarter use of ultimate, but it wouldn't change the original thinking with the passive. (Don't allow people to stack ulti before the battle and create an advantage to the dk, max ult cost is 250, so 250 should be the max ultimate counting for BR).

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

If people break free then dodge the fossizile, just use PL after the roll dodge.

It's the same than using assassin's wll just right after incap, if the ennemy dodge it, then land the bow after the dodge roll.

John_Falstaff

@Aedaryl , with the proposed 250 ultimate cap, whole idea of the change is moot, then: people will still be forced to use the hard-hitting, costly Standard as soon as it's ready instead of saving it up for right moment (like dropping it on adds once they spawn). It wouldn't be much of a change compared to what we have now.

ak_pvp

Aedaryl wrote: »

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

If people break free then dodge the fossizile, just use PL after the roll dodge.

It's the same than using assassin's wll just right after incap, if the ennemy dodge it, then land the bow after the dodge roll.

Yes, that generally is how it is done, a massive pain though if they roll again or cloak or what have you. You can also talon-normlash-foss-powerlash, but that eats a chunk of magicka and isn't guaranteed because they can ignore the talons with FM or roll the setup lash. Its just such a pain in the ass to land.

BohnT

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

In the following i might refer to resource drain, the numbers i use there are calculated by skill cost / duration, if you want to know how much regen you need to sustain you have to multiply the drain with 2

Stamdk has a huge issue as it's currently the worst spec for any situation except for 1vX where magwarden is worse but in solo, small groups, organized groups and big zerg fights stamdk is ranked 10/10 for multiple reasons.

This doesn't mean that stamdk is unplayable or can't win fights or anything, it just means that playing any other class will give you far better results if you played them rather than playing stamdk.

For a long time until morrowind launched stamdk was one of the strongest stamina specs in the game, this came down many things and most of them have been nerfed into the ground.
Back then stamdk really was the stand your ground spec.
With the old battle roar, helping hands, old redguard passives, much lower block cost, skill cost and better sustain, a lot less skills that went through block, less bleeds (master weapons were crap back then except for bow/ resto), 2 classes had CCs that dropped block and kept you stunned even after you took damage (nb and templars), weaker defiles, Black rose, procs, old heavy passives

That aren't just a lot of things to list they also had huge impact on their own.

Helping hands and battle roar and redguard, heavy passives +Black rose ment that by increasing your max stamina you'd reach insane sustain while also reaching a damage output that would make your burst very deadly in terms of one full burst was able to kill most players.
Block cost received multiple nerfs in the past from flat cost increases over to double the amount of block cost checks (=2x cost) and then to a change in the formula that increased the cost for builds with maximum block cost reduction by 400%.

A long with these nerfs to the archetype of blocking and holding your ground the offence got many buffs, with morrowind the CP System got changed to being frontloaded which lead to a strong damage increase along with that we've seen the introduction of more CCs and skills that go through block like rune cage, time stop, buffed master 1h, sloads, additionally damage got increased by buffing light attacks.

This happened in the past and is just here to show how stamdk made it into the sorry state it has today.
Many of these changes were needed others are questionable but what's undeniable is the huge effect they had on stamdks.

So let's see what stamdks bring to the table in the current patch.

Stamdk gets from it's class the following skills that can be used:
Fossilize, fragmented shield, wings, volatile armor, Flames of oblivion, venemous claw, noxious breath.

These skills give us access to:
An unblockable, undodgeable CC that roots the target afterwards
Major mending for 5.2 seconds
The reflect of 4 projectiles over 6 seconds + 2 seconds snare removal
Major armor buffs, a 10m aoe with very low damage and a damage return on direct damage with low damage aswell
A 2.5k-3kdot that hits one target every 5 seconds
The potentially strongest dot in the game
Access to major fracture with an AoE that deals low damage

But that's not all we also get access to passives which give us the following buffs:
200 mag / stamregen if we poison and burn an enemy every 5 seconds +25% more damage on these status effects
30% snare for 3 seconds on direct damage (only venemous claw, FoO and noxious Breath)
3% more damage on venemous claw and noxious breath
6% more damage on noxious Breath

10% more damage blocked
12% healing received increase with volatile armor or wings active
5% more health regen for every draconic Power ability slotted
3300 spell resistance (~5% spell damage reduction)

46 health, mag and stam for ulti cost when using an ult
0.5 ult / s + minor brutality when using an EH ability every 6 seconds
990 stamina when casting an EH ability

We also get access to Leap a very strong burst ultimate that stuns and can be used from range.

Now let's look at the 3 important things.
Sustain, offence and defence.
How does a stamdk tackle these things?
Offence: stamdks will always use venemous claw and maybe other dots to start pressuring an enemy and then he has 2 options for spammables that can be talked about, one being the attempt of running with dizzying Swing and the other being using heroic Slash+la+bash

Dizzying Swing has a huge problem as it's impossible to land on a decent player as it has the easiest counterplay of any skill in the game, being dodgeable, blockable, cloakable and counterable by walking through the caster or our of the 7m range (in reality it's bigger than 7m as you can walk back a small bit when you start channeling dizzying Swing at the limits of its range and you will still hit the target).
As a skill that only lands vs bad players is worthless in the fights we want to win dizzying Swing loses the competition before it started.

The next spammable we have is the combination of heroic + la + bash. This rota has multiple problems, first it's extremely expensive.
Heroic Slash costs 2673 Stamina
Bash with 1h&s costs 1133 stamina meaning without further cost reduction we are looking at 3806 stamina cost everytime we use that.
As 1h&s has a lower damage output than 2h or DW the rota of doing heroic+la+bash is more expensive and weaker than comparable combos on other classes that have an class spammable like la+jabs or LA + suprise attack+bash (on 2h bar) additionally as we have to use the rota on our 1h&s bar we can't proc passive bleeds but these are especially important to kill people as the stamdk bleeds are far weaker than those and one single dot isn't enough to pressure an enemy.
Granted using the heroic Slash combo gives us 30 stam+mag/ s but we could get this buff also if we had a spammable as we could use heroic as a debuff/ buff skill like other classes do ( especially. stamplar) rather than a spammable.

In terms of burst combo stamdk doesn't have much to bring to the table, the maximum amount of burst you can have is a FoO proc, together with the last tick of venemous claw and leap + your spammable.
It also doesn't help that this whole burst is really weak and can be blocked. There are more problems but they'll be touched later on.

Defence wise stamdk is often refeered to as the tank class although this doesn't come from the class but how you are forced to build it as the sad thing is that DKs don't get much tankiness / survivability from their class.
You get 5% spell damage reduction, 10% more damage blocked and major mending + 12% healing received + wings that give occasional ranged damage mitigation and a heal based on your ult cost when using it.

The problem is how much damage other classes can avoid entirely as taking no damage is better that only taking reduced damage and that they have better heals even if they don't have access to major mending.

Stamplar can avoid a lot of damage with purge that also gets rid of defiles, along with the hot of purge(that is about as strong as the added heal you get when using vigor with major mending) and minor mending and vitality you are often looking at better heals and less damage received when you check your combat Matrix after fights.

Stamsorc avoids a lot of damage with how it's played as a very mobile class that it perfectly synergises with also surge gives you a heal that is stronger than vigor for the cost of only 116 mag / s.
On top of that the unbuffed heals of a stamsorc are in general stronger than those of a stamdk as stamsorc can get more base stats and with DD full damage builds are possible, DD also gives stamsorc the option to get Access to an burst heal that can be used really easily with the changes to interrupt in DBones and the mentioned mobility of stamsorcs. The most important parts here are the added strong heal of surge and the huge damage mitigation due to the high mobility.

Stamwarden is just well stamwarden, access to an own class burst heal, a dedicated very cheap healing ultimate, the best range damage mitigation in the game with shimmering, access to major mending even more class heals on top of high mobility with 100% uptime of major expedition with class abilities.


Sustain on stamdk is a tough topic as on one side it's the best sustain during block in the game but on the other side this sustain has its limits as stamdk doesn't get any x% regen increase passives and the passives you have come with several drawbacks in actual combat situations.
One example is helping hands which gives us 46 mag, stam for every point of Ultimate cost of our used ults, this can be translated to 46 (mag + stam)/ult point.
This would give us:
138 (mag + stam) /s from light attack ult
23 (mag + stam ) /s from mountain's Blessing
46 (mag + stam ) /s from WW hide
107 (mag + stam) /s from bloodspawn
138 (mag + stam) /s from tava's favour
30 (mag + stam ) /s from heroic Slash

= 482 (mag+stam) (maximum)

On top of this we can get 100 (mag + stam) /s from combustion and up to 990 stam from helping hands.

Now here comes the problems.
You only get the 46 mag and stam per up to the cost of your ultimate and not your stored ultimate meaning you will always lose lots of resources or you will spam your ultimate on cooldown which is even worse because you need to line up burst in order to have a chance of killing anyone. Also a build running tava's favour and WW hide and bloodspawn doesn't synergise very well as you have to be medium if you don't want to burn all your stamina to keep tava's up but then you are far more vulnerable of getting killed. Also when you avoid damage your uptime on bloodspawn decreases which translates to less resources again.
Our other passives also have weaknesses, in order to get 990 stam from helping hands we have to use a skill that costs at least 2700 mag and if you use the cheapest skill you will also be unable to use it for another 6 seconds (in duels), fragmented shield will cost you 4050 if you don't want to run fossilize.
Combustion on the other hand is very unlikely to give you anywhere near 100 mag and stam per second because first the only skill that can give you magicka is FoO which isn't used often in the first place while the stamina return can only proc due to maybe a poison glyph or venemous claw as noxious breath can be considered a useless ability at it's current state.
This leaves is with a single dot to proc a status effect every 5 seconds which is highly unreliable (especially when you start looking at your combat Matrix after fights) on top of that argonians and bosmer can't be poisoned while dunmer are immune to burning which renders the passive useless against these classes.

This means that our sustain gets either reduced by how you fight, who you fight or just in general because you can't run the things to optimise your sustain. Also with how sustain works on stamdk stacking into stamregen isn't as effective as it is on other classes like stamwarden, nb or sorc which all have a regen passive


Many people will point out that stamdk can get 100% major mending uptime while also having snare immunity and access to a burst heal in rally which gives them an advantage in terms of survivability when compared to the other non nb stamclasses.

The problem is that in order to keep major mending up 100% of the time we have to cast it every 5 seconds, this would result in a magicka drain of 810 mag/s, the next issue is that mountain's Blessing revolves around a 6 second cooldown meaning either we cast another EH ability along with fragmented or we accept that we can only have a 86% uptime on major mending which brings us down to a magdrain of 675 while giving us 165 stam / s via Helping hands
The issue doesn't stop there if we want to keep up wings for a 100% uptime on snare immunity we have to cast wings every second gcd and we'll be looking at a magdrain of 1755, even if we just want to have a 33% uptime on the snare immunity we still have to face a magdrain of 585 mag / s.
The question is now is it worth to have the rally burst heal and accept the very high magicka cost and the low snare immunity or is the amount of damage you can mitigate via the longer snare immunity with Forward Momentum bigger than the burst heal of rally and can we make better use of the magicka when we don't have to spam wings.

In many situations FM is still the winner and the "advantage" of stamdk is in reality a disadvantage over the things they could already use for a long time.
This is especially meaningful in fights were the wings don't affect your enemy (all fights except for magsorcs with reach and magnbs) in those 2 occasions wings actually have a very strong affect but those fights are rare and as a stamdk you don't stand a good chance of winning them anyway, neither are you very prone to losing them, in the end you just make sure that the fight will be a draw and then you are at a disadvantage as you won't be able to disengage when another player comes to help you unlike the magsorc and magnb which both have good disengaging abilities in shade, cloak and BoL.

Now let's check why stamdk is so weak in many situations.
Solo play: as mentioned above stamdk tries to be a pressure class that outsustains the enemy and eventually wears him down, well this might work against one enemy but with more than 2 enemies on you you are at a huge disadvantage, as you don't have access to huge burst you aren't able to simply kill one enemy to reduce the number of enemies so you can more easily kill them, other classes can do this rather easily namely magsorc and stamnb, stamwarden, magdk. This wouldn't matter if stamdk was so tanky that they could withstand this extra pressure but they aren't.
The next problem is that you can't keep up the pressure very long against multiple targets and that any spec that has access to a burst defence (shields or burst heal) can just ruin every effort that was put on to pressure someone.

Now let's look at smallscale here you have the issue that stamdk brings absolutely no utility that a magdk couldn't bring while the magdk brings much more to the table with more CCs, snares and more damage and healing. All other stamclasses bring more utility aswell even a stamnb is more vital for a smallscale group than a stamdk. Mainly because a stamnb can more effectively focus targets down, can get away to place a camp (something that you will need from time to time) and the opportunity to walk around towers more freely without getting focused and killing targets that are mindlessly zerging the other members of the group.

Organized groups: well you bring one rapids spammer and you will surely not choose the class that brings the less group utility with it but that is the same for stamnb aswell and stamplar

Zergs: The biggest problem here is that in zerg battles there is often a 10-15m gap between the zergs and anyone who dares to enter that gap gets humiliated. Also stamdk doesn't bring much AoE damage with it outside of leap that is bad in these situations because it often fails to connect leaving you helpless which will then get you killed and you don't have any ranged skills that synergise with the class or any class ranged skill (not that one would help stamdk anyway).


Specific issues:
Outdated passives:
As explained above battle roar counteracts how you would normally use your ultimates.
Changing this into working like Balorgh( ult used rather than cost) would be a big help

Elder Dragon is absolutely useless as stacking skills from draconic Power only isn't worth it and other classes just get more health regen for slotting one skill or just for free.

Iron Skin is currently rather useless as block already gives good mitigation to the things you can actually block while being useless vs so many other things that will actually hit you, change this to work on all damage while blocking rather than just blocked damage, this would give dk a slight buff vs bleeds, dots and other unblockable skills

World in ruins is really bad especially for stamdk there are 4 abilities in the game that benefit from this:
Corrosive Armor, noxious breath, acid spray and trapping webs
None of these skills is viable nor does a 6% damage increase make them viable. From Summerset to WH the tooltip damage of my noxious breath on a viable pvp build increased by 300 freaking 300 that's before mitigation and before battle spirit.
This passive is not worth it because there are no good skills that benefit from it (unlike with magdk) and the skills that work with it are horrible

Combustion has the same issue as WiR there are just not enough skills that deal poison damage on a good stamdk build for this passive do be noteable.

Leap is the next issue on the list:
It's currently one of the most unreliable ultimates in the game as people will just walk out of it, dodge it, streak it or don't take any damage even if they are stationary and my personal favorite you hit the enemy but the server doesn't show it and then locks you out of anything and keeps you in a "leaping state" in which you can't use abilities, potions, dodge or anything but your character will just start the animation and then interrupt it without any effect.
And there is nothing you can do about this except for removing leap from your bar.
In the last 4 days 6/10 leap didn't hit their target or locked me up even if everyone of them should've hit their target (targets were dodging or walking)

The next issue is that even if leap works you have to wonder if it's worth using anymore as Dawnbreaker deals more damage overall, can be animation cancelled without giving your enemy a visual cue of you flying on him and with no delay at all while even if they block the dot will deal good damage something leap doesn't + DBoS will deal more damage vs vamps and WWs gives you 3% more wpn damage and all that just for 15 ult more.

First of all make leap reliable again and then think about changing it to poison damage to make it benefit from WiR passive and to buff combustion


Noxious Breath is still a wasted ability that's not worth to slot. The damage on the first hit is weak, the dot is weak, the hitbox is extremely bad, you are better off just using another ability before trying to pressure someone with that skill it's just bad and it will probably never be good without a complete overhaul or if you keep the damage the same but Cut down the duration to maybe 4 seconds so you actually pressure your enemy during the duration and not tickle him with 400-700 damage ticks.

Venemous claw has the same issue that it's outperformed by things like rending slashes (even non master) and the passive bleeds. For a class defining ability that's just sad. It's not as bad as noxious breath it's just stupid when you look at it.

The biggest problem stamdk has is however that there is absolutely no synergy between the skills of the class and the skills the class has to use.
That startsfrom by the lack of a good class spammable. Templars and nightblades have such Awesome synergy inside their class with their spammables.
Nightblades can combine cloak and suprise attack to a high damage cc that gets followed by an assassin's scourge, this combo gives stamnb the raw power to have strong burst without needing a delayed damage ability.
Stamplar combines jabs, burning light and PotL to a very strong backloaded burst.
Magsorc brings everything together so that the class can stack into magicka and then combine shields, curse, frags, mines and streak to create an individual and special playstyle that no other class has.
These synergies inside classes can be seen on any single class and the stronger those are tied together and the more they work together the stronger the classes are overall.

Sadly stamdk doesn't have any synergy anymore before morrowind the synergy was that you could get damage, sustain and survivability from stacking everything into stamina (even without active skills synergising it was very strong) this got removed completely which showed that there is no synergy inside the entire class.

This synergy can be created by doing multiple things:
1. give us a stamina whip that gets stronger when used on poisoned enemies (like powerlash on stunned / rooted enemies)
2. turn deep breath into a stamina ability that heals for a bit less but deals more damage on the second hit while also poisons enemies that get hit
This created a synergy with WiR, combustion, Warmth (currently useless for stamdk as you won't use venemous claw every 3 seconds to keep the snare on the enemy)
Also it gives stamdk a new heal and a burst combo with Deep breath into whip into leap.
3. don't give stamdk a spammable stamina burst heal, we see how it turned out on stamwarden and that's something we don't need more of in the game.



I think that's enough for now there is still much to Cover but i don't expect that this will change anything so i better not waste more time on this.

Before anyone starts and says i have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm just a salty stamdk main, well you're wrong then, i play all classes both specs in pvp from 1vX to small scale, i'm not in the mood to be more biased towards one class than another. The reason i wrote this is because stamdk is the only class that makes me Angry and frustrated even when winning fights because i always know that it would've been easier on any other class, dieing on a stamdk is even more frustrating due to this because more often than not i could've survived or at least lasted a little longer.

Please ignore any spelling mistakes or random words mobile phone user

tagging @Joy_Division due to the discussion in the class rep notes thread

Your biased, that's the problem.

You brough a lot of good points really, but your qq just make people laugh.

Stamina DK isn't the worst on the 10 classes, stam dk is very good in duel, in 1vX and in smallscale. Stop it.

Stam dk is good. Stam dk is weaker than warden, stam dk lack identity, stam dk need more sinergy with his class skills : YEAH.

Stam dk should have more pressure.

I'm looking at Noxious Breath. The damage need to be buffed, but the way the ability land is also horrible and need to be reworked. ( make a circle 10 metter AoE around the player, so it will land when people turn around you.). Noxious breath should also increase poison damage by 10%, helping the skill itself but also venomous claws.

Dk sustain is good. Battle roar is VERY strong, giving 322 stamina, magicka and health regen in combat. The power of the passive is not only the good number, but the fact it's giving you all ressources.

The problem you pointed with battle should be adressed, don't make DK forced to spam ulti when it's ready to have a good ressource managment. The problem I have with making battle roar giving ressource on the ultimate used is the fact people would stack 500 ultimate and get 23k health, magicka and stamina when engaging a new fight whenever they want, resseting the . I think it should work like this :

Battle road : "When you use an ultimate, give you 46 magicka, stamina and health per point of ultimate consumed, up to 250 ultimate (a cap)" It would give dk better ressource managment and smarter use of ultimate, but it wouldn't change the original thinking with the passive. (Don't allow people to stack ulti before the battle and create an advantage to the dk, max ult cost is 250, so 250 should be the max ultimate counting for BR).

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

If people break free then dodge the fossizile, just use PL after the roll dodge.

It's the same than using assassin's wll just right after incap, if the ennemy dodge it, then land the bow after the dodge roll.

So you tell me stamdk is good in duels, 1vX and smallscale.
Now tell me what does stamdk bring to the table that makes it better than other classes.

Let's compare it to the other stamina classes shall we?
Everything here is considering same skill level, as i said you can play stamdk but you are better off playing anything else.

Stamplar dishes out much more pressure and damage due to jabs and PotL, can purge bleeds and defiles, something stamdk gets hardcountered by, on top of that stamplar gets more physical and spell resistance than a stamdk due to balanced warrior and rune, as explained in the long post the survivability and healing of a stamplar is better than a stamdk.
Vigor crits for 2.5-3.5k and that's with major mending meaning major mending adds maybe 625-875 extra healing if we are very generous. Here comes the catch on my stamplar my healing ritual heals me for ~500, my vigor ticks for 200 less than a major mending vigor on a stamdk. Well i hope you can do the math on your own now.
What's even more important than healing output is that my stamplar eats less damage and can remove defiles.
So in the end you'll see that stamplar has a better survivability and better damage, sustain wise nothing loses to a stamplar but every good stamplar can sustain infinitely just like on every other class.
For smallscale stamplar has two big things to offer stamdk lacks 1. is a healing ultimate that brings everyone back to full 2. is purge we could add repentance and PotL but let's not be this harsh to people who think stamdk brings something to the table for a smallscale group.
Just to Mention it stamdk brings minor brutality to the group and that's it.
Leap is unwanted when playing smallscale as it can push people out of the range of the other ults and DBoS can be used by everyone.
Saying a stamdk can take more damage for your group is stupid for multiple reasons.
1. people will never focus the tank
2. ulti drops are AoE so it doesn't matter if your stamdk goes full tank mode and survives while the rest of the group dies
3. as explained above the survivability of a stamdk doesn't come from the class but how people play it because that's the only way stamdk can be played at this time
4. even if we imagined stamdk was the most tanky class (which it isn't) it still wouldn't be able to tank 2x the amount of damage other classes can. Being tanky comes from your playstyle and sets and is slightly enhanced by your class not the other way around.

Now let's head over to stamsorc.
Just from the passives you see that stamsorc dishes out more damage than a stamdk, if we use the "full damage DD sustain" stamsorc wins by far damage wise, also important stamsorc boosts bleed damage, and all other weapon abilities that are used +gets implosion procs on them and also on the "op bash"
Healing wise stamsorc gets a stronger vigor with surge on top of the normal vigor and a delayed burst heal with DD that can be used on combat, especially after the changes with DBones.
Both can mitigate range damage the difference is stamsorc might not mitigate stamina ranged abilities but gets the edge over stamdk by not being limited to 4 projectiles. What's also important especially in 1vX and smallscale is the much better mobility of the stamsorc and more mobility means more Los which translates into less damage taken.

Just from a passives standpoint stamdk takes 10% less damage while blocking, stamsorc can get 20% for 3 seconds with bound armor but let's ignore that here and stamdk takes 5% less damage from magicka based damage sources.
I'm asking you is that better than having 2x the heals, more damage, better mobility, a passive execute and a good escape tool and more sustain to a point were you can play full damage builds with stamsorc?

I will not talk about stamwarden as you said it's much better than stamdk already.

Last class is stamnb.

In duels we don't even have to talk about who's better, bleedblade is the only spec in the game that can challenge a pet sorc and still has a decent chance of winning.

Solo play and 1vX: surely stamdk can compete here. Huehuehuehuehue

Smallscale: your typical rollerblade isn't exactly useful in smallscale groups, what is very useful is a stamnb that's build for that. And just by looking at a stamnbs toolkit we see many beautiful things and that stamnb is a stamdk with a few extra tricks like a better spammable that procs bleeds, cloak to avoid damage rather than trying to face tank it and to place camps, shade to simply survive against a whole group by outkiting them, a cheap single target nuke while also having access to DBoS and the potential to use the strongest bursts healing ultimate in the game or an ult that gives everyone major protection for ~20 seconds.



So now to quick things up a bit we compare the stamina classes to their magicka Counterpart.

Magsorc=stamsorc - - - - > magsorc > stamdk
Magdk >stamdk
Magnb<stamnb but magnb > magsorc ---->
magnb > stamdk
Magplar=stamplar - - - - - > magplar>stamdk
Magwarden< stamwarden

Okay here we have to differ, magwarden is worse than a stamdk in solo play but magwarden is one of the strongest classes in smallscale (everything listed already in the initial post)

And from the comparison you can see stamdk is worse than the stamina parts of all classes but as the stamina and magicka specs of all classes are decently balanced (except for DK and warden) we can conclude that stamdk is in fact the worst class out there.

I'll repeat myself this doesn't mean stamdks can't kill anyone or are unplayable but this means that playing with your stamdk hinders yourself as every other spec in the game will benefit you more and will give you better results.

Skoomah

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

sharquez

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@sharquez , etc..

I respect that. No offense taken, usually pve does take a back seat in my mind but that's mostly because 95% of it is faceroll and the other 5% can be adapted to with out great pains. Ideally the impact my proposed change to wings in pve wouldn't be felt after all how many projectiles can each enemy shot at you. Most enemies attack, what, once every 2 seconds? if anything in some scenarios such as sky reach grinding this would be a buff.

ak_pvp

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

BohnT

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

Magdk is more tanky, you have 4 heals and any of them outperforms vigor.
Embers is a huge burst heal, drain essence gets stronger the more enemies you have around you, meaning then when you need to tank, power lash heals for the same amount as vigor if we average the healing and let's not forget able a spammable burst heal without having to wait for it.
Let's not forget about the added damage mitigation you get with the additional usage of wings.
That makes you a lot more tanky in the same setup magdk will always exceed stamdk in terms of healing, tankiness and damage output.

You haven't played stamplar nor stamdk.
Stamplar has the edge over stamdk
1. you can counter defiles in their current form
2. you take less damage as you can purge dots, damage that you don't take is something you don't have to heal
3. stamplar can block more meele damage and has more spell and Physical resistance

Stamplar has more survivability but people don't build for it like they do on stamdk because people that you kill don't deal any more damage.

John_Falstaff

@sharquez , depends on content. Talking about Maelstrom specifically, there are spots where there's a bunch of ranged mobs attacking simultaneously (it's probably 3-4 attacks possibly landing at once) while melee mobs chase you around, so spamming wings (and spending GCDs that should be used to burn primary targets and do self-healing) even more often than every six seconds would make things more difficult. The proposal would work better if you always could burn the ranged mobs fast, but there are situations where they're landing heavy-hitting projectiles while you're busy hopping remote islands with electrified water in-between or kiting other threats - in that case, you already have your hands full even without having to spam wings all the time.

Maybe it would make sense to further separate two morphs, leaving one more PvE-friendly, but I'm not risking with proposing ready, concrete solutions, I don't have full picture either and I wouldn't want to be selfish (since I'm seeing very little PvP). I would want to discuss and hopefully come to some common solution that would be great for both worlds, but I'm already twitchy with feeling that ZOS has a habit of suddenly, spontaneously spotting some random piece of complaint from forums, rolling out a change without considering everything it affects (notoriously, combat team and content teem seem to be interacting once a year), and then it all lands on live. It makes me even less ready to say "we could change this and this, it may satisfy us all".

Savos_Saren

Class

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

If people break free then dodge the fossizile, just use PL after the roll dodge.

It's the same than using assassin's wll just right after incap, if the ennemy dodge it, then land the bow after the dodge roll.

Yes, that generally is how it is done, a massive pain though if they roll again or cloak or what have you. You can also talon-normlash-foss-powerlash, but that eats a chunk of magicka and isn't guaranteed because they can ignore the talons with FM or roll the setup lash. Its just such a pain in the ass to land.

To piggy back on what @ak_pvp mentioned:

For the part that I bolded- Assassin's Will also has a 28 meter range. So to land it on someone after they've roll dodged is much, much easier. Powerlash has an 8 meter range. So you would have to talons, flame lash, [the enemy roll dodges], catch back up to them and then Powerlash them before the window of opportunity expires. Also, mDKs don't have a ranged execute like a NB does. So, proccing Assassin's Will (28 meter range) and then using Impale (28 meter range) as the execute has a much easier flow.

The fact that it's a multi-step process just to land a Powerlash still hurts mDKs.

ak_pvp

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

Magdk is more tanky, you have 4 heals and any of them outperforms vigor.
Embers is a huge burst heal, drain essence gets stronger the more enemies you have around you, meaning then when you need to tank, power lash heals for the same amount as vigor if we average the healing and let's not forget able a spammable burst heal without having to wait for it.
Let's not forget about the added damage mitigation you get with the additional usage of wings.
That makes you a lot more tanky in the same setup magdk will always exceed stamdk in terms of healing, tankiness and damage output.

You haven't played stamplar nor stamdk.
Stamplar has the edge over stamdk
1. you can counter defiles in their current form
2. you take less damage as you can purge dots, damage that you don't take is something you don't have to heal
3. stamplar can block more meele damage and has more spell and Physical resistance

Stamplar has more survivability but people don't build for it like they do on stamdk because people that you kill don't deal any more damage.

I have played both, as alt setups on my mains. MagDK is not more tanky. More heals yes. But tanky absolutely not, specifically because they can't go tanky without a loss.. You yourself have said that MagDK is destro/resto now and pointed to deci's build. They simply don't come close in damage in heavy here is why:

• They don't have comparable mag damage sets. Axiom is the closest, and then you go back to the issue of sustain.
• Worse sustain, MagDK abilities are costly, and so they rely on either light or ele drain. Ice staff is more squishy. You can't weave with staves reliably.
• Worse mobility, ya ya wings/chains. Neither compare to the length and reliability of FM or speed immo stam pots.
• They lose damage on light weaves with s/b.
• No sword and board passive mag equivalent.

Stamplar:

• Can block more melee, but less ranged.
• Less spell/phys resist, unless standing in the circle. Though you said yourself that they are not played stand your ground, because the class doesn't work like that. You could have said the minor protect rune that some use. Funnily enough minor protection outdoes both DK defense passives since they are limited.
• They can't block as much either, sustain is barebones as is.
• Obvious issues with jabs, better damage, but issues none the less.
• Purge is good this meta, overall its so so. Similar issue with wings in that its easy to overwhelm and expensive.

There is a very big on paper vs in practice divide. Both classes have high potential tankiness, they just aren't. Yeah stamDK sucks in this meta, and you can cry rivers about worst class ever, but I know how it is as an MDK main have been there for like 2.5 yr and am still in the deep end since I play heavy and so deal with the exact same *** I do on a stamDK.

BohnT

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

Magdk is more tanky, you have 4 heals and any of them outperforms vigor.
Embers is a huge burst heal, drain essence gets stronger the more enemies you have around you, meaning then when you need to tank, power lash heals for the same amount as vigor if we average the healing and let's not forget able a spammable burst heal without having to wait for it.
Let's not forget about the added damage mitigation you get with the additional usage of wings.
That makes you a lot more tanky in the same setup magdk will always exceed stamdk in terms of healing, tankiness and damage output.

You haven't played stamplar nor stamdk.
Stamplar has the edge over stamdk
1. you can counter defiles in their current form
2. you take less damage as you can purge dots, damage that you don't take is something you don't have to heal
3. stamplar can block more meele damage and has more spell and Physical resistance

Stamplar has more survivability but people don't build for it like they do on stamdk because people that you kill don't deal any more damage.

I have played both, as alt setups on my mains. MagDK is not more tanky. More heals yes. But tanky absolutely not, specifically because they can't go tanky without a loss.. You yourself have said that MagDK is destro/resto now and pointed to deci's build. They simply don't come close in damage in heavy here is why:

• They don't have comparable mag damage sets. Axiom is the closest, and then you go back to the issue of sustain.
• Worse sustain, MagDK abilities are costly, and so they rely on either light or ele drain. Ice staff is more squishy. You can't weave with staves reliably.
• Worse mobility, ya ya wings/chains. Neither compare to the length and reliability of FM or speed immo stam pots.
• They lose damage on light weaves with s/b.
• No sword and board passive mag equivalent.

Stamplar:

• Can block more melee, but less ranged.
• Less spell/phys resist, unless standing in the circle. Though you said yourself that they are not played stand your ground, because the class doesn't work like that. You could have said the minor protect rune that some use. Funnily enough minor protection outdoes both DK defense passives since they are limited.
• They can't block as much either, sustain is barebones as is.
• Obvious issues with jabs, better damage, but issues none the less.
• Purge is good this meta, overall its so so. Similar issue with wings in that its easy to overwhelm and expensive.

There is a very big on paper vs in practice divide. Both classes have high potential tankiness, they just aren't. Yeah stamDK sucks in this meta, and you can cry rivers about worst class ever, but I know how it is as an MDK main have been there for like 2.5 yr and am still in the deep end since I play heavy and so deal with the exact same *** I do on a stamDK.

Do you think anything can go tanky without a loss?
If you want to be tanky you have to give up a lot no matter if you are stam or mag.
Also i just said that I'm using destro restro on my magdk because i like it more.
The best magdks on pc EU still run 1h&s.
If you think damage on a stamdk outdoes a Magdk I feel sorry for you because that's simply not the case.
I don't know when you played stamdk or how you played it but a magdk does more damage than a stamdk be it LA magdk vs medium stamdk or HA magdk vs HA stamdk.

My point about stamplar leaving the rune was done before the changes to rune right now it's more easy to stay inside the rune and you actually get something for it that wasn't the case when i made that post.
Also the there is no physical resistance difference for stamdk and stamplar and only 1% spell resistance more for stamdk if the templar isn't inside of the rune while the templar has minor protection as you said.

As you said there is a big on paper and practise divided the issue is you are the one who's using the paper information, I've been playing all classes during most patches since Morrowind and to say things like stamdk outperforms magdk tanking wise of is better than stamplar is just wrong or based on biased views.

ak_pvp

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

Magdk is more tanky, you have 4 heals and any of them outperforms vigor.
Embers is a huge burst heal, drain essence gets stronger the more enemies you have around you, meaning then when you need to tank, power lash heals for the same amount as vigor if we average the healing and let's not forget able a spammable burst heal without having to wait for it.
Let's not forget about the added damage mitigation you get with the additional usage of wings.
That makes you a lot more tanky in the same setup magdk will always exceed stamdk in terms of healing, tankiness and damage output.

You haven't played stamplar nor stamdk.
Stamplar has the edge over stamdk
1. you can counter defiles in their current form
2. you take less damage as you can purge dots, damage that you don't take is something you don't have to heal
3. stamplar can block more meele damage and has more spell and Physical resistance

Stamplar has more survivability but people don't build for it like they do on stamdk because people that you kill don't deal any more damage.

I have played both, as alt setups on my mains. MagDK is not more tanky. More heals yes. But tanky absolutely not, specifically because they can't go tanky without a loss.. You yourself have said that MagDK is destro/resto now and pointed to deci's build. They simply don't come close in damage in heavy here is why:

• They don't have comparable mag damage sets. Axiom is the closest, and then you go back to the issue of sustain.
• Worse sustain, MagDK abilities are costly, and so they rely on either light or ele drain. Ice staff is more squishy. You can't weave with staves reliably.
• Worse mobility, ya ya wings/chains. Neither compare to the length and reliability of FM or speed immo stam pots.
• They lose damage on light weaves with s/b.
• No sword and board passive mag equivalent.

Stamplar:

• Can block more melee, but less ranged.
• Less spell/phys resist, unless standing in the circle. Though you said yourself that they are not played stand your ground, because the class doesn't work like that. You could have said the minor protect rune that some use. Funnily enough minor protection outdoes both DK defense passives since they are limited.
• They can't block as much either, sustain is barebones as is.
• Obvious issues with jabs, better damage, but issues none the less.
• Purge is good this meta, overall its so so. Similar issue with wings in that its easy to overwhelm and expensive.

There is a very big on paper vs in practice divide. Both classes have high potential tankiness, they just aren't. Yeah stamDK sucks in this meta, and you can cry rivers about worst class ever, but I know how it is as an MDK main have been there for like 2.5 yr and am still in the deep end since I play heavy and so deal with the exact same *** I do on a stamDK.

Do you think anything can go tanky without a loss?
If you want to be tanky you have to give up a lot no matter if you are stam or mag.
Also i just said that I'm using destro restro on my magdk because i like it more.
The best magdks on pc EU still run 1h&s.
If you think damage on a stamdk outdoes a Magdk I feel sorry for you because that's simply not the case.
I don't know when you played stamdk or how you played it but a magdk does more damage than a stamdk be it LA magdk vs medium stamdk or HA magdk vs HA stamdk.

My point about stamplar leaving the rune was done before the changes to rune right now it's more easy to stay inside the rune and you actually get something for it that wasn't the case when i made that post.
Also the there is no physical resistance difference for stamdk and stamplar and only 1% spell resistance more for stamdk if the templar isn't inside of the rune while the templar has minor protection as you said.

As you said there is a big on paper and practise divided the issue is you are the one who's using the paper information, I've been playing all classes during most patches since Morrowind and to say things like stamdk outperforms magdk tanking wise of is better than stamplar is just wrong or based on biased views.

How many proper heavy+S/B MagDKs do you see 1vXing or really anything of use outside a CC bot hm? Not many. Most of EUs top DKs I have seen are all light, maybe they run an S/B on one bar, but for the most part it is widely regarded that light>heavy for the majority. Skaffa (or sanguvoria now,) runs light, but mainly plays magden from what I have seen.

I was fighting 2 heavy armour DKs, who I know for certain are decent, hot fire/creten a few weeks ago. Both couldn't kill me, but I bet you a good heavy stamDK. Apparently nser doesn't play often, but stalemated in heavy v heavy vs them. Been in BGs with flodius and soundwave, both pretty good GOs and used staves and light. I think even the hero big boss uses light from how squishy he is.

A stamDK has vastly better damage in heavy than a MagDK, both raw stat and otherwise, with weaves and bleeds (I see lots 2h/DW nowadays).There is no contest. They might come equal if you go vamp, but people are dropping vamp like flies. StamDK simply has better raw damage in heavy. The weave damage is too important now.

The problem is not that StamDK is worst at everything, and it does have its strengths. Its just that its strengths are all dulled down versions of other classes that end up mediocre at best, and its weaknesses are large and easy to exploit this meta.

JumpmanLane

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

ak_pvp

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

BohnT

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

why do you use a dodgeable ability when you know that 99% of all players will dodge exactly at that moment when you try to hit them, because you're used to it and don't want to accept the nerf?
Well i got to tell ya that's like sorcs trying to still cc people with frags or people still trying to negate falldamage by holding what ever button 'backwards' is.
It won't work and it will never work again.

BohnT

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

Magdk is more tanky, you have 4 heals and any of them outperforms vigor.
Embers is a huge burst heal, drain essence gets stronger the more enemies you have around you, meaning then when you need to tank, power lash heals for the same amount as vigor if we average the healing and let's not forget able a spammable burst heal without having to wait for it.
Let's not forget about the added damage mitigation you get with the additional usage of wings.
That makes you a lot more tanky in the same setup magdk will always exceed stamdk in terms of healing, tankiness and damage output.

You haven't played stamplar nor stamdk.
Stamplar has the edge over stamdk
1. you can counter defiles in their current form
2. you take less damage as you can purge dots, damage that you don't take is something you don't have to heal
3. stamplar can block more meele damage and has more spell and Physical resistance

Stamplar has more survivability but people don't build for it like they do on stamdk because people that you kill don't deal any more damage.

I have played both, as alt setups on my mains. MagDK is not more tanky. More heals yes. But tanky absolutely not, specifically because they can't go tanky without a loss.. You yourself have said that MagDK is destro/resto now and pointed to deci's build. They simply don't come close in damage in heavy here is why:

• They don't have comparable mag damage sets. Axiom is the closest, and then you go back to the issue of sustain.
• Worse sustain, MagDK abilities are costly, and so they rely on either light or ele drain. Ice staff is more squishy. You can't weave with staves reliably.
• Worse mobility, ya ya wings/chains. Neither compare to the length and reliability of FM or speed immo stam pots.
• They lose damage on light weaves with s/b.
• No sword and board passive mag equivalent.

Stamplar:

• Can block more melee, but less ranged.
• Less spell/phys resist, unless standing in the circle. Though you said yourself that they are not played stand your ground, because the class doesn't work like that. You could have said the minor protect rune that some use. Funnily enough minor protection outdoes both DK defense passives since they are limited.
• They can't block as much either, sustain is barebones as is.
• Obvious issues with jabs, better damage, but issues none the less.
• Purge is good this meta, overall its so so. Similar issue with wings in that its easy to overwhelm and expensive.

There is a very big on paper vs in practice divide. Both classes have high potential tankiness, they just aren't. Yeah stamDK sucks in this meta, and you can cry rivers about worst class ever, but I know how it is as an MDK main have been there for like 2.5 yr and am still in the deep end since I play heavy and so deal with the exact same *** I do on a stamDK.

Do you think anything can go tanky without a loss?
If you want to be tanky you have to give up a lot no matter if you are stam or mag.
Also i just said that I'm using destro restro on my magdk because i like it more.
The best magdks on pc EU still run 1h&s.
If you think damage on a stamdk outdoes a Magdk I feel sorry for you because that's simply not the case.
I don't know when you played stamdk or how you played it but a magdk does more damage than a stamdk be it LA magdk vs medium stamdk or HA magdk vs HA stamdk.

My point about stamplar leaving the rune was done before the changes to rune right now it's more easy to stay inside the rune and you actually get something for it that wasn't the case when i made that post.
Also the there is no physical resistance difference for stamdk and stamplar and only 1% spell resistance more for stamdk if the templar isn't inside of the rune while the templar has minor protection as you said.

As you said there is a big on paper and practise divided the issue is you are the one who's using the paper information, I've been playing all classes during most patches since Morrowind and to say things like stamdk outperforms magdk tanking wise of is better than stamplar is just wrong or based on biased views.

How many proper heavy+S/B MagDKs do you see 1vXing or really anything of use outside a CC bot hm? Not many. Most of EUs top DKs I have seen are all light, maybe they run an S/B on one bar, but for the most part it is widely regarded that light>heavy for the majority. Skaffa (or sanguvoria now,) runs light, but mainly plays magden from what I have seen.

I was fighting 2 heavy armour DKs, who I know for certain are decent, hot fire/creten a few weeks ago. Both couldn't kill me, but I bet you a good heavy stamDK. Apparently nser doesn't play often, but stalemated in heavy v heavy vs them. Been in BGs with flodius and soundwave, both pretty good GOs and used staves and light. I think even the hero big boss uses light from how squishy he is.

A stamDK has vastly better damage in heavy than a MagDK, both raw stat and otherwise, with weaves and bleeds (I see lots 2h/DW nowadays).There is no contest. They might come equal if you go vamp, but people are dropping vamp like flies. StamDK simply has better raw damage in heavy. The weave damage is too important now.

The problem is not that StamDK is worst at everything, and it does have its strengths. Its just that its strengths are all dulled down versions of other classes that end up mediocre at best, and its weaknesses are large and easy to exploit this meta.

I never said people still run heavy armor in magdk (mainly because light armor is better imo as you can build to be tanky while the damage and sustain you get from the passives are just so good) i was talking about people still running 1h&s and except for sloadwave and maybe 2-3 others i haven't encountered magdks that don't utilise 1h&s.

I guess your perception from stamdks running DW is limited to non cp and bgs due to bleeds being so strong there that no matter what class you use them on it's effective.
On Vivec EU there is one stamdk that's running DW that i know of and he's swimming with the AD faction zerg and is the first one to die even when big boss is around.

The damage of magdks is better, flamewhip does as much damage as heroic + la unless you run into a guy that's wearing fury+7th and is fully buffed but you won't find these guys nowadays unless he's facing absolute plebs in which case magdk has the easier time with more AoE pressure.
Also magdk has to offer more dots than stamdk, these make up for the loss of weaves, yes they have to be applied first but so do bleeds which are random and don't have an exceptionally high proc chance especially for stamdk without a viable ability that applies them.
(With both passive bleeds applied and masters DW stamdks damage is better but then the stamdk is a lot less tanky than the magdk, he would win a 1v1 but nothing be viable in any 1vX situation)

JumpmanLane

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

IZZEFlameLash

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

Anim cancel doesn't make skills hit any faster though. If anything, opponent's input delay probably helps you hitting Power Lash. Which happens quite often nowadays.

Also, in heavy, Stam DK is better than mDK. I was at a resource trying to flip it against a tanky Stam DK, and he didn't even use bleeds but was strong enough to constantly make my health drop to near 50 while I had to do the combo to get to that stage. We basically stalemated but if I wasn't in a certain set, I expect the outcome would've been in his favor. Now, Light Armor is a different story.

ak_pvp

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

That.. isn't how it works. Even if you anicancel it, it takes the exact same time to get from foss to powerlash as it does without animation canceling. In which time.

"I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash."
I don't even. Unless you black out as you use the middle whip, you must realize that you clicked it yes?
You could be doing the talons lash foss powerlash combo, but doesn't sound like it.
No offense I am having my doubts on your validity/skill.

And bohn, I do stagger the lash, or use talons before. But as you said, its a nerf, and as I said its a pain. And it shouldn't be like it is. 3 separate times to avoid it make it way too nub friendly to avoid. Its dulled DK to this *** build high damage and do nothing but spam whip and foss/embers/leap on cooldown because easy is effective. The out sustain and control based gameplay is rip.

This is the DK feedback thread you know, so I'm giving feedback on problems.

ChildOfLight

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

I respectfull disagree with your pile of confused sentences.

Flooding the forum with tons of:" Ye stamdk sucks...but who ever is gonna care for the poor magdk? The poor magdk cannot do anything right, he has no friends and none cares about him" served just right from what I can see.
As a matter of fact we had just buffs to magDK disguised as StamDk ones. Great job.


And in the forseable future there are no changes programmed for the stamdk (unless we are talking about nerfs. Probably we can expect some of them)

Permablocking is more alive than ever in cp campaings and you dont need to be a brillant theorycrafting genius to score stupid amount of spell damage while playing the holding block simulator minigame on your magdk.

Have you tried the bloodthorn paired with the newly permablocking-favoring-set Cyrodill Crest? Just to name a single combination on the spot but there are tons of sets magdk could benefit of.
Absolutely fun gameplay rate 10/10.

Needless to say stamdk cannot do anything of that listed above and is pigeonholed with the same 3 sets since 2016


Honestly I am just waiting for Fallout76 to come out at this point.

ak_pvp

ChildOfLight wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Stam DK sucks in PvP compared to the classes. Anyone want to dispute?

Mag DK - Tankier, Hits Harder

Warden - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder, Faster

Templar - Tankier, Heals Better, Hits Harder

Sorc - Way More Tanky, Hits Way Harder, Way More Mobile

Nightblade - Hits Way Harder, Vanishes at Will

MagDK is no way tankier than stamDK. If they go tanky, they lose damage and sustain heavily. They do hit harder if in light, but are less mobile. MagDK is better because the light/shield playstyle is meta and they can use it to get high damage. HeavySDK>HeavyMDK

Stamplar is less tanky and worse healing/sustain, the damage potential is higher.

Magden has more tankiness, but much worse damage potential outside of group.

Its probably tied bottom overall. There is no be all/end all worst. But stamDK is in a really awful place for the meta being heavy on bleeds/defiles/sloads still.

I respectfull disagree with your pile of confused sentences.

Flooding the forum with tons of:" Ye stamdk sucks...but who ever is gonna care for the poor magdk? The poor magdk cannot do anything right, he has no friends and none cares about him" served just right from what I can see.
As a matter of fact we had just buffs to magDK disguised as StamDk ones. Great job.


And in the forseable future there are no changes programmed for the stamdk (unless we are talking about nerfs. Probably we can expect some of them)

Permablocking is more alive than ever in cp campaings and you dont need to be a brillant theorycrafting genius to score stupid amount of spell damage while playing the holding block simulator minigame on your magdk.

Have you tried the bloodthorn paired with the newly permablocking-favoring-set Cyrodill Crest? Just to name a single combination on the spot but there are tons of sets magdk could benefit of.
Absolutely fun gameplay rate 10/10.

Needless to say stamdk cannot do anything of that listed above and is pigeonholed with the same 3 sets since 2016


Honestly I am just waiting for Fallout76 to come out at this point.

Its not a MDK is awful thing, its just that SDK is better in heavy, because heavy magicka sucks. MagDK is only viable because light+destro is so much stronger than heavy nowadays and they do OK riding on the coattails of it.

You are the one who cried about there not being enough stamDK concerns in the rep meeting despite there being more than there was for MDK. So I am taking what you say with a lot of salt.

Permablock without going full potato is gone. You do know that?
At absolute, potato tier damage full infused block+passives and whatever, its 257 per tick, so that is 2k regen equivalent discounting recovery to sustain it under pressure, and then it doesn't account for CCs or casting.
The only way its possible is by pseudo permablock by using the ult and heavy attacking, and guess what, you have no damage. Top lol at cyrodiils crest. Yep, chalking this entire thing down to innexperience.

We can talk about who is better in heavy when they give us a mag melee weapon that we can sustain and weave with, mag bleeds, mag fury or ravager, mag sword/board passive, and better sustain.

Same on the fallout thing though.

Ozazz

Dragonnord wrote: »

1 - Better class heals for stamina DK please. Green Dragon Blood is not enough. We shouldn't be dependent on 2H or DW heals.
2 - Class skills for speed and mobility. We should be able to move faster. Being a DK doesn't mean we have to be heavy and slow.

PS: If you allow me to mention a third point, I'd say class executioner skill. If not, someone else please list it.
 [/quote lol this is a joke right

Ozazz

Dk is in its best position it has been for a while and to see kids still complaining about buffs makes me nauseous!
dk just received what is possibly the biggest buff! Over the course of this games history, in game specific to any class.

BohnT

Ozazz wrote: »

Dk is in its best position it has been for a while and to see kids still complaining about buffs makes me nauseous!
dk just received what is possibly the biggest buff! Over the course of this games history, in game specific to any class.

interesting and which buff is that?

JumpmanLane

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

That.. isn't how it works. Even if you anicancel it, it takes the exact same time to get from foss to powerlash as it does without animation canceling. In which time.

"I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash."
I don't even. Unless you black out as you use the middle whip, you must realize that you clicked it yes?
You could be doing the talons lash foss powerlash combo, but doesn't sound like it.
No offense I am having my doubts on your validity/skill.

And bohn, I do stagger the lash, or use talons before. But as you said, its a nerf, and as I said its a pain. And it shouldn't be like it is. 3 separate times to avoid it make it way too nub friendly to avoid. Its dulled DK to this *** build high damage and do nothing but spam whip and foss/embers/leap on cooldown because easy is effective. The out sustain and control based gameplay is rip.

This is the DK feedback thread you know, so I'm giving feedback on problems.

Fossilize procs powerlash fast enough for me to get it off on people who I KNOW are good at this game. Only guy I know consistently fast enough to break and roll out of fossilize before a powerlash is Zalgen, the guy who taught me magdk (and who prob should be the DK class rep lol).

I can get it off in Cyrodiil so oh well. I know leet players who can make ANYTHING work even heavy armored MagDK. Personally I like light Magdk. Light armor passives just too good.

Savos_Saren

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

That.. isn't how it works. Even if you anicancel it, it takes the exact same time to get from foss to powerlash as it does without animation canceling. In which time.

"I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash."
I don't even. Unless you black out as you use the middle whip, you must realize that you clicked it yes?
You could be doing the talons lash foss powerlash combo, but doesn't sound like it.
No offense I am having my doubts on your validity/skill.

And bohn, I do stagger the lash, or use talons before. But as you said, its a nerf, and as I said its a pain. And it shouldn't be like it is. 3 separate times to avoid it make it way too nub friendly to avoid. Its dulled DK to this *** build high damage and do nothing but spam whip and foss/embers/leap on cooldown because easy is effective. The out sustain and control based gameplay is rip.

This is the DK feedback thread you know, so I'm giving feedback on problems.

Fossilize procs powerlash fast enough for me to get it off on people who I KNOW are good at this game. Only guy I know consistently fast enough to break and roll out of fossilize before a powerlash is Zalgen, the guy who taught me magdk (and who prob should be the DK class rep lol).

I can get it off in Cyrodiil so oh well. I know leet players who can make ANYTHING work even heavy armored MagDK. Personally I like light Magdk. Light armor passives just too good.

Here's the problem with that mentality, though: If you're basing a whole class off of elite player's skills- then you're doing it wrong. The average person in Cyrodiil doesn't have their own stream or write guides or know every animation cancelling technique.

BohnT

Savos_Saren wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pain point #348: mDK execute (again)

From just today, alone (right after the Wolf Hunter release)

I've noticed that there are a lot more dodge builds popping up out there. I'm guessing that it's because of the change to Rune Cage and Sloads (they're now dodgable). The setup for our most powerful attack, Power Lash, is getting dodged like a mother [snip]er. The fact that it's a three part setup for Powerlash (talons, flame lash, powerlash) is really putting us at a disadvantage. I keep seeing my Burning Embers and Power Lash being dodged while my Leap and Empowering Chains keep popping up with "miss". Or even better yet- our "DOT based class" constantly has our DOTs being suppressed by Nightblades.

In the mean time- we're getting spammed by 2H Executioner, Mages Fury (and it's passive execute, mind you), Jesus Beams, cowardly poison injections from stealth, and Spin-to-Win Steel Tornados.

With our strongest defense (blocking) being nerfed and major defiles/bleeds/sloads whittling us down- we need to be able to be more on the offense against our opponents.

Can we please finally get a [snip]ing execute?

Fossilize is undodgeable and instantly procs powerlash. I DO want an execute though.

It doesn't insta proc it. Its the setup lash first, when they break free, then you powerlash and they roll to avoid it. If whip just instaproc'd on CCs and was still dodgable you could guarantee it on foss, but not guarantee both normal lash and power lash like before. And it'd still have the CD and be rollable.

That way it'd be better able to be used as a finisher.

Well it is whip then powerlash just as you say; but I only know one guy whose fast enough to basically Instantly break fossilize and roll out of it and that’s a pal I duel a lot who knows when I apply it.

You can get fossilize off and proc powerlash on really good people enough for it to be effective. I did it multiple times on some streamer in his stream last week.

IF nobody could break and dodge out of it then it would be OP. It’s good as it is.

If you are a medium build 1v1 a DK, you are simply not getting hit by it. You fossilize, then normal lash whilst they break free. You then powerlash as they roll from the root.
So, you end up having to stagger the whip, which might be fine whilst fighting a mag class, but if the an enemy starts cloaking or keeps rolling, issues happen. Its not as if a DK was landing a full 4 course burst mean in 1 tick, pretty much just lash and some dot ticks maybe.

I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash.

The 1vXer who taught me magdk animation cancels everything. You really can’t see his normal whips. I’m not saying I’m as good as this particular Magdk; but I got powerlash off on a well known streamer (who was rolling out of my talons INSTANTLY) everytime I fossilized him. Again, I could get powerlash to proc off of fossilize against some pretty elite competition. He was in a StamBlade. Guys no slouch.

So, ultimately I personally have no issue with fossilize to powerlash.

That.. isn't how it works. Even if you anicancel it, it takes the exact same time to get from foss to powerlash as it does without animation canceling. In which time.

"I unno. I Front bar SnB and intentionally (mostly unintentionally) animation cancel most whips except powerlash itself. It’s really why I think (or THOUGHT) fossilize automatically procced powerlash."
I don't even. Unless you black out as you use the middle whip, you must realize that you clicked it yes?
You could be doing the talons lash foss powerlash combo, but doesn't sound like it.
No offense I am having my doubts on your validity/skill.

And bohn, I do stagger the lash, or use talons before. But as you said, its a nerf, and as I said its a pain. And it shouldn't be like it is. 3 separate times to avoid it make it way too nub friendly to avoid. Its dulled DK to this *** build high damage and do nothing but spam whip and foss/embers/leap on cooldown because easy is effective. The out sustain and control based gameplay is rip.

This is the DK feedback thread you know, so I'm giving feedback on problems.

Fossilize procs powerlash fast enough for me to get it off on people who I KNOW are good at this game. Only guy I know consistently fast enough to break and roll out of fossilize before a powerlash is Zalgen, the guy who taught me magdk (and who prob should be the DK class rep lol).

I can get it off in Cyrodiil so oh well. I know leet players who can make ANYTHING work even heavy armored MagDK. Personally I like light Magdk. Light armor passives just too good.

Here's the problem with that mentality, though: If you're basing a whole class off of elite player's skills- then you're doing it wrong. The average person in Cyrodiil doesn't have their own stream or write guides or know every animation cancelling technique.

That's true but why should they get the full benefit then if they aren't able to do it?
And as people have mentioned already the DK tooltip has skills that perfectly fit into this gap.
One example being drain essence:
If you use DE when the enemy dodges after your fossilize you can whip them right after the dodge roll ends, if you got your leap ready that's your next skill which will hit along with the DE explosion.

When whip and embers were undodgeable, magdk was the main contender as to why medium armor builds got very rare in pvp.
I played magdk back then and it was ridiculous that players had absolutely no counterplay when they were facing me while wearing medium armor, it was just as broken as shieldbreaker still is vs sorcs.

This game should reward players for being better than others and not give the floor the opportunity to reach the ceiling just by throwing unbalanced things into the game.

IZZEFlameLash

Stams are much better in heavy than mag counterparts in general due to access to damage sets where as only real damage set mag has is Rattlecage (Elf Bane is useless other than prolonging Zaan and Grothdarr). I subscribe to the idea of 'you can make LA tanky but it is really difficult to make HA hit hard' when it comes to mDK. Even Templars hit harder in heavy than mDK in heavy. Yes, StamDK has issues for sure and I can feel that whenever I play StamDK (like real limits as to what they can and cannot do) but strictly speaking Stam in heavy is better than mag in heavy. Again, this is not to say that StamDKs have 0 problems because they do for sure.

Ozazz wrote: »

Dk is in its best position it has been for a while and to see kids still complaining about buffs makes me nauseous!
dk just received what is possibly the biggest buff! Over the course of this games history, in game specific to any class.

You mean 'better'. Not the best. Better than what it was post-IC to a DLC I no longer remeber the name of. Still, core issues remain and mDKs are still very tricky as far as the resource management goes where other classes might not run out but mDKs will do so faster. The best was pre-IC.