[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

HankTwo

Can our class reps please ask the devs if eclipse (+morphs) is supposed to proc on spiked armor damage return? Or is this a bug, since passively returned damage shouldn't count as direct damage? I don't see any reason why this skill should be around twice as effective against DKs compared to any other class. Same goes for spiked bone shield but that skill isn't a class defining buff and only lasts for 6 seconds.



In this fight I never once attacked that templar directly, but I still got a huge amount of damage from eclipse just because my hardened armor returned a little bit of damage to him while he was attacking me.

Toc de Malsvi

HankTwo wrote: »

Can our class reps please ask the devs if eclipse (+morphs) is supposed to proc on spiked armor damage return? Or is this a bug, since passively returned damage shouldn't count as direct damage? I don't see any reason why this skill should be around twice as effective against DKs compared to any other class. Same goes for spiked bone shield but that skill isn't a class defining buff and only lasts for 6 seconds.



In this fight I never once attacked that templar directly, but I still got a huge amount of damage from eclipse just because my hardened armor returned a little bit of damage to him while he was attacking me.

I would like to know as well, I have noticed this phenomenon when fighting Templars.

Tetrafy

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

VierulSquirrel wrote: »

The low points are the same as the other classes that aren't used.

1. Sustain; people are literally using balance in trials to sustain with DK's even after the status effect update. Perhaps have eruption refund its cost when its full duration runs out.


2. Range play-ability; making proc sets crit in PvE might help so you all don't have to rework the entire class and morphs. However! changing one of the stone fists morphs over to mimic cripple from the magic nightblade. and have it with a key proc chance. such as, when (molten fist)--[new ability name], is cast and burning embers is slotted on the same bar!!!! It will aply burning embers to the target.
As well as changing the clench morph from the destruction staff, have (reach) cost less and deal a bit more DoT. Clench should remain the same since it has the knock back.

Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons was a key part of the DKs range support but it has been neutered into irrelevance. This because of DK one shot builds, which NBs can do fine but are somehow unacceptable for DK.

LOL Yep

NBrookus

It also triggers every "when taking damage" set in within 10 meters. It triggers your own "when doing damage" sets, which is not always what you want because it doesn't necessarily hit the person you want.

On the upside, it occasionally finds cloaked nightblades.

I wouldn't mind seeing the damage go from this skill in favor of another minor benefit.

JXNwarrior

HankTwo wrote: »

Can our class reps please ask the devs if eclipse (+morphs) is supposed to proc on spiked armor damage return? Or is this a bug, since passively returned damage shouldn't count as direct damage? I don't see any reason why this skill should be around twice as effective against DKs compared to any other class. Same goes for spiked bone shield but that skill isn't a class defining buff and only lasts for 6 seconds.



In this fight I never once attacked that templar directly, but I still got a huge amount of damage from eclipse just because my hardened armor returned a little bit of damage to him while he was attacking me.

the funny thing is that it counts as direct damage for proc'ing Eclipse, but does not count as direct damage for proc'ing Bloodthorn...so you can't even reap the benefits of it lol

JamesDX

So many people are wanting a Stam whip, in which case the 101 spell damage could be part of the base morph, then make the power lash part of the mag morph and make the other morph stamina based.

With regards to making magDKs PvE viable again, the main reasons they aren't used are tanks have access to engulfing flames, the fact that they are not ranged and their sustain is so much worse than other classes.

Engulfing flames could be changed so that the damage bonus would be as a percentage of health to magicka, so on a DD the more magicka to health would mean more of a % boost to fire damage, whereas tanks have more health, bringing the % bonus down to a much less bonus.

Making burning embers the same range as whip would give DKs that little bit more range while not making them dramatically OP.

With regards to sustain, combustion is very underwhelming, the 5 sec CD is really not in keeping with the burning cool down, which is 4 seconds. I suggest changing the combustion cool down to 4 seconds and giving a slight buff to the resource return, and maybe change elder dragon passive to something more useful?

reiverx

Such a shame. I had high hopes for the class rep thing.

IZZEFlameLash

reiverx wrote: »

Such a shame. I had high hopes for the class rep thing.

Kinda your fault. Sorry man. Never expect what ZOS does for PR stunt to bring actual good news. At the most, it will be like "this will be a buff if you are ____ and will be a nerf if you are ____" changes and then everything else will get pushed to the next update ad infinitum.

reiverx

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Such a shame. I had high hopes for the class rep thing.

Kinda your fault. Sorry man. Never expect what ZOS does for PR stunt to bring actual good news. At the most, it will be like "this will be a buff if you are ____ and will be a nerf if you are ____" changes and then everything else will get pushed to the next update ad infinitum.

Yeah dude. It's all my fault.

hakan

Some passive could use a change. Also i dont get the molten armaments stam morph. What is it supposed to do? Major buff you can get everywhere. So?

Savos_Saren

HankTwo wrote: »

Can our class reps please ask the devs if eclipse (+morphs) is supposed to proc on spiked armor damage return? Or is this a bug, since passively returned damage shouldn't count as direct damage? I don't see any reason why this skill should be around twice as effective against DKs compared to any other class. Same goes for spiked bone shield but that skill isn't a class defining buff and only lasts for 6 seconds.



In this fight I never once attacked that templar directly, but I still got a huge amount of damage from eclipse just because my hardened armor returned a little bit of damage to him while he was attacking me.

I posted something similar here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/406893/total-dark-bug-or-working-as-intended-on-mdk-wings/p1

Except I believe the Templar cast Total Dark on me after I used my Wings... and then he spammed Javelin. It reflected off my Wings and then re-reflected off Total Dark back at me. I thought that abilities weren't supposed to get double reflects...

Savos_Saren

Back on topic to Pain Points, though:


I read the new Class Representative notes (July 24th). I still would like to see a couple of stamina morphs added to DK skills (ie: Choking Talons, Deep Breath) in order to give StamDKs a little more class identity. Both would benefit from World in Ruin.


Also- I was reading in another portion of the forums: MagDK still needs an execute now that their abilities are more dodgable. Perhaps Elder Dragon could increase fire DOT damage to targets with less than 30% health? Or Stone Fist could deal 250% more damage to targets with less than 30% health...

ak_pvp

reiverx wrote: »

Such a shame. I had high hopes for the class rep thing.

Yep. The notes were basically: DK wants to land their abilities. StamDK needs something. More sustain. It mentions nothing about the crumbling playstyle, identity/unique abilities, about trash abilities, about weakness openworld.

The feedback forum on the discord was 30% about wings apparently. Because even with 2s extra immunity its a shell of its former self compared to cloak, and with yet another exception from the biased balance team. (meanwhile the strongest class in eso gets to basically ignore it)

It is annoying. Since the current dev team still has basic free reign over what they do with feedback you can basically expect nb/sorc to rotate top positions forever, and any playstyle based around resistive play to be ruined further.
(Tanky magdk, tanky magden, tanky magplar and StamDK are all bottom tier) only stamden is top tier in heavy, and that is because they are super overtuned. Magplar/DK can use light to get slightly better, but end up as weaker versions of magblade.

Carbonised

Joy manages to get pretty much every Templar suggestion implemented in the current PTS patch, and what do DKs manage? To get that 2 second snare immunity on wings that we asked for 3 months ago.

That still doesn't make wings any more than circumstantial at best and a waste of time and magicka at worst - cue the post and video by @ak_pvp

How about actually making the DoTs that DKs are supposed to live off of be an actual threat? Making cloak not suppress them and mitigate them completely? Making templars not able to purge all of them off with impunity? Making them hit harder at low health aka the DK execute?

DKs are the DoT class, yet DoTs are the worst possible forms of damage in a PvP setting that is -all about burst- (of course disregarding the bleeds and sloads which go through resistances and end up as unmitigable and unblockable damage - none of the DK dots have these advantages). What about DoTs affecting targets with nasty debuffs as long as they remain on?

And again, block is the -only- form of defense the DK class has, it doesn't have streak and shields and awesome defenses like sorcs, or a complete reset of the battle and insta-invis like NBs. And yet the hate on block just continues among the dev team. Nerf to block, nerf to heavy armor, introduce sloads specifically to target block builds (which ends out spiralling out of control to become THE damage proc set used against everyone). Hells, -YOU- decided to give DKs only block as a viable defense, then nerf it into the ground. If you don't want DKs with shield and sword blocking for defense, then you should have given us better class defenses that weren't tied to blocking. Or did you think we would just not rely on block and sit there like sitting ducks in light armor ready to be snack for every sorc insta-combo and unblockable CC, or NB ganking from stealth/cloak?
Doesn't help that both NB and Sorc have hard CC that goes through block and is very hard to break free from either. Not to mention all the unblockable/unreflectable Sorc skills.

There is no vision or overall idea of the DK class, you keep changing skills around haphazardly, convert damage skills to healing skills in a desperate attempt to push the DK healer role (that still NO ONE uses, yes I do dungeon PUGs, I've yet to see a single DK healer despite your changes), and more and more passives do not apply to our skills any more due to you having changed them so drastically.

We need a -coherent- approach to the class to make it feel -special and unique-, and if you give us blocking as our main form of PvP defense and DoTs as our main form of signature damage, could you damn well stop nerfing blocking so hard into the ground and make DoTs actually -useful- and threatening in a PvP environment, instead of being the joke that they currently are?

Where is our class representative's passionate and coherent thread on the PTS forum with a new approach for our class, or is it only templars who will benefit from this class representative idea?

Carbonised

josiahva wrote: »

1. Class skill cost. We have been saying this forever...every skill costs more than other class equivalents.

Dottzgaming wrote: »

Point 1 (PvE): Eruption/Cinder Storm. The skill, for what it costs, is not that good. It needs to either cost less or deal more damage/healing to be more consistent with its cost.

Point 2 (PvP): Wings. Projectiles should be per person, or the number of projectiles we can reflect should be increased. Also, the snare removal morph should grant ~2 seconds of snare immunity to prevent instant snare reapplication.

Blobsky wrote: »

1. Reflecting with wings should also reflect status effects (e.g. snipe should major defile the oponent rather than yourself still.
2. Reflect should be 4 projectiles per person, not per cast as it is instantly down outnumbered otherwise.
3. Wings cost should be ibncreased 10% if those go through.

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, any DK suffers from 2 big issues that have not been updated until since 2014

1- Passives: most DK passives are bad, and some of them are nearly useless. Things like World in ruin or Searing heat are too situational and favor only one playing style: HA S/B DK. There were some good passives that got a nerf hammer without a clear reason, like helping hands and Battle Roar and which are quite meh nowadays. But there's one passive above all of them that is clearly an insult to all DKs in ESO: Elder Dragon. It's a health recovery passive in a class that needs to go Vamp to get extra movility. I mean, seriously? Extra health recovery for sloting tanking skills? C'mon. You can pass from that passive, saving 2 skill points and nothing, really nothing is gonna change. You will still be a vampire with reduced health recovery. So please, have a look at that.

2- The second problem has to do with the dmg oriented line, Ardent Flame: Ardent flame is the worst dmg line in the game. Only has 2 viable skills (Whip and SS) and none of them benefits from the only passive that increases dmg (WiR). Ok, Searing heat increases Searing strike dmg... a 3%. When you compare that number to the amount of dmg any sorc gets for any physical or lightning dmg, you feel you have been fooled. And that dmg increase does not affect your main spammable (which has a morph that increases the dmg of your ardent flame skills in 100 spell/wpn dmg, which is nothing). That was ok before One Tamriel when Dks had access to a set like old Silks of the Sun, which increased your flame dmg a 5%. On top of that, half of the passives only work with skills in the line, so no chance to increase extra dmg with other skills.

Still_Mind wrote: »

DK is positioned as a stand-your-ground class with limited mobility, but formidable defenses and control, damage reflection.

What do we have now, after massive redesigning and a large amounts of direct and indirect nerfs is a rather clumsy melee mage with limited mobility, mediocre damage mitigation, decent control, decent pressure and good (if somewhat situational) "healing through damage" mechanics.

Damage reflection? Neutered by the increased number of unreflectable skills in PvP, unreflectable bosses in PvE.

Damage mitigation? Nothing most other classes don't have, aside the Earthen Heart Ultimate, which is often too expensive to be useful, and, frankly, often just delays the inevitable. Shield Wall is cheaper and feels more useful overall. Iron Skin and spell resist are a nice bonus, but don't make or break a playstyle.

Rivers of fire and blood through stacked Standard, Eruprion, Flames of Oblivion, Inhale and Talons? Poof, gone. FoO is now a buff and a cheap turret. Eruption is an inefficient ground DoT or heal, Standard isn't often good enough to justify its cost.

DKs used to be a perpetuum mobile in thick battle due to dynamic Ultimate generation and Battle Roar. Used to be OP, but nerfing both resulted in sustain issues, and I don't feel encouraged to get into the thick of the fight as a DK anymore.

To summarise: DKs were OP, but nerfs killed their class identity, and I feel like playing a clumsy generic melee character with fire-themed visuals.

2) Bad passives, many skills are outdated, or need redesign.

I look at DK passives, then Sorc passives, then NB passives, then Warden passives and sigh, thinking that probably only Templars have them as bleak and unimpressive as DKs.

As for the skills-many feel like their concept is raw, or not up to date with current game dynamics.

A few examples:

Our resist buff skill essentially just buffs resists in case of stam build, and does unimpressive damage for a mage build, plus some healing received bonus from passives that could be triggered by another skill. Stamsorcs, for one, have an impressive PBAOE DoT (what FoO should be, essentially) on their buff, Wardens have the super-sweet Minor Protection, NBs have their resists buffed pretty much passively by using rotational skills.

Molten Weapons and its morphs needs to be more defined in terms of stam/magicka identity, possibly grant additional effects to heavy attacks, or even convert physical damage to magical for sword and board MDKs.

Current iteration of Eruption makes me shed bitter tears. Scrap the poor man's lightning flood/healing springs and give it useful buffs/debuffs such as evasion, minor protection,
minor resolve, minor fracture, minor defile-SOMETHING.

Goren wrote: »

2.) Flames of Oblivion
This skill had a great visual effect with flames around the character similar to the sorcerer's hurricane skill and now it's just a floating fire ball. I don't know how this has anything to do with a dragonknight.

Just look at this. The players are literally pinpointing the exact areas where the DK class (I'm highlighting MagDK here) fails to meet expectations, or feels unfinished or hollowed out. Just look at this and you can clearly see the direction in which to go with future DK changes.

Skoomah

@Quantum_V

Where’s all the fixes bro? Can Stam DKs get some love?

reiverx

Goren wrote: »

2.) Flames of Oblivion
This skill had a great visual effect with flames around the character similar to the sorcerer's hurricane skill and now it's just a floating fire ball. I don't know how this has anything to do with a dragonknight.

This one definitely needs something. I get more out of Inner Light since it gives you 5% extra magicka and one light attack has more power than a hit from the fireball.

Carbonised

reiverx wrote: »

Goren wrote: »

2.) Flames of Oblivion
This skill had a great visual effect with flames around the character similar to the sorcerer's hurricane skill and now it's just a floating fire ball. I don't know how this has anything to do with a dragonknight.

This one definitely needs something. I get more out of Inner Light since it gives you 5% extra magicka and one light attack has more power than a hit from the fireball.

Many of us asked for Inferno to go back to a PB AoE, they can tweak the damage and effects so its balanced, and maybe Cauterize as PB AoE heal with some chance to purge negative effects each tick.

Hells, I've been here 3 years, and even I missed out on the old inferno, I started when it was converted to that puny little floating ball and I recall the immense disappointment that this was supposedly the "apex" DK skill in the Ardent Flame tree. What a load of bull.

Then they gave the awesomeness of Inferno to stamsorcs with Hurricane, and put our old signature skill on a monster mask set (Grothdarr), yeah, the DK community wasn't pleased that day.

OrphanHelgen

reiverx wrote: »

Goren wrote: »

2.) Flames of Oblivion
This skill had a great visual effect with flames around the character similar to the sorcerer's hurricane skill and now it's just a floating fire ball. I don't know how this has anything to do with a dragonknight.

This one definitely needs something. I get more out of Inner Light since it gives you 5% extra magicka and one light attack has more power than a hit from the fireball.

its actually 7% mag since you also get the 2% from mages guild passives

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO

Whip seems to be in a pretty good place right now in my opinion. I don't mind that it's dodgeable, but because of that, it would be really nice to have a class execute for mDK in PvP. Mostly, Skoria has to do my executing for me, and that's not always reliable. A class shouldn't have to rely on a specific gear set to access a type of ability that literally every other class has. And it's been said here before too, our DoTs seem to be underperforming to a point where very few people can effectively use them in PvP, and then even if you apply all your class-identity-defining DoTs, they don't do much damage and are easily purged anyway (side note, templar purge is too strong, but that's for another day).

My pain points (more than two, obviously):
>Give DKs stronger DoTs and debuffs.
>Make Flames of Oblivion do what Hurricane does.
>Give us an execute.
>Give us meaningful class skill passives.
>Give us a stam whip to actually provide some class identity to stamDKs

Defensively, I think DK is in a great place because wings might be my favorite defensive skill in the whole game.

IZZEFlameLash

If DK DoT bypassed resistance like bleed does... oh man, the forumblade tears will be drowning everyone.

the_Beard

Solid feedback brought up in the recent dev meeting. Every single one of the pain points brought up I completely agree with. If zos can start giving attention to those, I think it would really help our class a ton.

regime211

Dragon knights shifting standard and standard of might needs to be reworked in my opinion, I would ask if the synergy be removed for a pvp stand point and allow the chains to shoot out at anyone who runs within the circle. Maybe increase the aoe meter, especially since it's an aoe that can be walked right through. Also decrease the cost to 200 instead of 225 ultimate, I feel like the ultimate is a good one but given the dynamics of pvp, even dropping it on a flag I have seen people still survive it. Another poster in another thread mentioned it being similar to elemental rage, and having the flag attached to the dk and have him run around with it causing damage, which would also be another good idea. I love the idea of the ultimate but it just isn't pvp friendly and I rarely see anyone using it. Unless they're doing pve.

hakan

Reviewed the skills of dk again and:
1-i think molten armament, stonefist, ash cloud( or was it inferno) could use some help.
2- some of the passives also need change or buff. Elder dragon for example.

How was the battle roar before nerf? it says 46 for every ult points now what was it before?

usmcjdking

hakan wrote: »

Reviewed the skills of dk again and:
1-i think molten armament, stonefist, ash cloud( or was it inferno) could use some help.
2- some of the passives also need change or buff. Elder dragon for example.

How was the battle roar before nerf? it says 46 for every ult points now what was it before?

It was fairly complicated. Ultimate spent didn't give a numerical amount, but rather a percentage of the ult spent back in resources. Stacking max stats provided back more resources, but your tertiary resource return was still pathetic. I find the new Battle Roar marginally better in PVP for mag DK and noticeably worse on Stam DK (but not awful, the mag return is much better - it just doesn't go anywhere near as far as the stam return on mag DK) but others may have differing experience.

ak_pvp

usmcjdking wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

Reviewed the skills of dk again and:
1-i think molten armament, stonefist, ash cloud( or was it inferno) could use some help.
2- some of the passives also need change or buff. Elder dragon for example.

How was the battle roar before nerf? it says 46 for every ult points now what was it before?

It was fairly complicated. Ultimate spent didn't give a numerical amount, but rather a percentage of the ult spent back in resources. Stacking max stats provided back more resources, but your tertiary resource return was still pathetic. I find the new Battle Roar marginally better in PVP for mag DK and noticeably worse on Stam DK (but not awful, the mag return is much better - it just doesn't go anywhere near as far as the stam return on mag DK) but others may have differing experience.

Thing is, even with old battle roar, I sustained both better, because they hadn't doubled the cost of block, which was normally the main stam drain on a DK.

IZZEFlameLash

Standards being PBAoE would be cool and justify the cost somewhat. But I'd still be happy if we just got some form of faster ultgen and reliable resource return procs without any other changes.

Draxys

People think DK needs mobility BECAUSE it lacks identity. The class needs to return to its roots of standing your ground, not kiting people around rocks like a sorc. Interesting mechanics like gaining defense or dodge chance while standing inside your own cinder storm are needed again- not mobility mechanics. If that’s no longer the identity zos wants for DK, they need to say it outright. Because the class has been floundering since the console update overhaul, and zos (and tons of tunnel-visioned, whiny players) seem to hate the very idea that DK was based around.

ak_pvp

Draxys wrote: »

People think DK needs mobility BECAUSE it lacks identity. The class needs to return to its roots of standing your ground, not kiting people around rocks like a sorc. Interesting mechanics like gaining defense or dodge chance while standing inside your own cinder storm are needed again- not mobility mechanics. If that’s no longer the identity zos wants for DK, they need to say it outright. Because the class has been floundering since the console update overhaul, and zos (and tons of tunnel-visioned, whiny players) seem to hate the very idea that DK was based around.

This exactly. I am kind of annoyed that heavy DK, and block DK which the passives and class overall is designed around has been ruined because ZOS hates tank specs, and the only buffs DK gets is super basic ones. "Low mobility and had your entire defense system dismantled though block nerfs, heavy nerfs, CC nerfs, meta changes like defile and sloads, and exception abilities to defense like block/wings." Oh, here is a 2s snare immunity, DK can't be too fast now.

Thanks to those changes, new DK runs usual magic stuff like bubbles, sticks, and dresses. But has no passives for it, so its just a weak magblade who can't reach too far basically riding of the coat tails to mid tier.

A lot of the problems DK has now... is because they messed up original DK. I.e.
Range: Didn't matter if you could root them close. Breath hard to hit a moving target, doesn't matter if you can root them.
Sustain: was enough before, and if you could hold and pressure an enemy you don't need to spend lots of resources whipping them.
Pressure: Can't do that anymore since you will be killed if you don't keep moving.
Mobility: Wasn't needed if you could force enemies to come near through wings and hold them without needing to run to the next tree every 5s.

IZZEFlameLash

Draxys wrote: »

People think DK needs mobility BECAUSE it lacks identity. The class needs to return to its roots of standing your ground, not kiting people around rocks like a sorc. Interesting mechanics like gaining defense or dodge chance while standing inside your own cinder storm are needed again- not mobility mechanics. If that’s no longer the identity zos wants for DK, they need to say it outright. Because the class has been floundering since the console update overhaul, and zos (and tons of tunnel-visioned, whiny players) seem to hate the very idea that DK was based around.

Yeah, agreed. As is, DKs will have to either get the mobility or gain back the unique stand your ground playstyle back. DKs need better ultgen, passives and sustain on top of some sort of tanking aid like Major Evasion.