Total Dark: Bug or Working as intended on mDK wings?

Savos_Saren

During PVP today- I was apparently wrecked by Total Dark. Now, before someone states it: I know that Total Dark reflects abilities. I wasn't casting any attacks... I was only casting Wings and I had Volatile Armor up. It appears that Total Dark reflects back our Volatile Armor AND any attacks that we reflect with our wings...

So, our defensive mDK skills are killing us?

@ZOS_GinaBruno Is this working as intended?

Biro123

Haha, that's awesome.

Kelces

Seems so, sorcerers hurt themselves quite a bit too, when they are standing close with their lightning form/tornado. I imagine you were close to the attacker?

Edit:

It says "any damage" now, not only magic projectiles maybe that's it.

Arciris

It's been working like that since launch (except when they messed up the skill). Eclipse was my favorite way to troll OP DK's wing spammers back in the old days. Everything needs a counter... just break free out of it or purge it

Savos_Saren

You can literally apply Total Dark to a DK that casts wings for defense and just spam him with javelin and he'll unintentionally commit suicide.

I was wondering why more and more Templars were using this skill lately.

Savos_Saren

Arciris wrote: »

It's been working like that since launch (except when they messed up the skill). Eclipse was my favorite way to troll OP DK's wing spammers back in the old days. Everything needs a counter... just break free out of it or purge it

I've been using wings for a long time... I've never once seen it like this, though.

I'm finding mDK less and less appealing these days.

ak_pvp

Yep haha, volatile+jabs and ooh boy it hurts, 4 ticks of it in 1s since volatile procs per melee damage, not per melee attack. And eclipse reflects every single target direct damage.

It never breakfrees properly either. Bashbashbash and a lot of damage later.

Arciris

Savos_Saren wrote: »

You can literally apply Total Dark to a DK that casts wings for defense and just spam him with javelin and he'll unintentionally commit suicide.

I was wondering why more and more Templars were using this skill lately.

Seems like Templars are finally (re)discovering that they are the natural counter to DK's in the rock/scissors/paper that classes were designed around

Kelces

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

It's been working like that since launch (except when they messed up the skill). Eclipse was my favorite way to troll OP DK's wing spammers back in the old days. Everything needs a counter... just break free out of it or purge it

I've been using wings for a long time... I've never once seen it like this, though.

I'm finding mDK less and less appealing these days.

Well, it has to do with the DoT it provides, which can get you an advantage against nightblades, who want to cloak away. Also of course because it became more appealing in terms of defense - all damage is now included, not only magic projectiles. It was nice before, especially against magicka sorcerers in my experience, but now... Well, figures, doesn't it?

Savos_Saren

ak_pvp wrote: »

Yep haha, volatile+jabs and ooh boy it hurts, 4 ticks of it in 1s since volatile procs per melee damage, not per melee attack. And eclipse reflects every single target direct damage.

It never breakfrees properly either. Bashbashbash and a lot of damage later.

How the [snip] can our defensive skills kill us, man? Geez. The counter to that should be that we can reflect the damage from Backlash...

Arciris

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

It's been working like that since launch (except when they messed up the skill). Eclipse was my favorite way to troll OP DK's wing spammers back in the old days. Everything needs a counter... just break free out of it or purge it

I've been using wings for a long time... I've never once seen it like this, though.

I'm finding mDK less and less appealing these days.

They probably changed the way death recap shows you the damage...but go test it in a town with the guards having the old eclipse still and you'll find that this has always worked like this.

Savos_Saren

Wings are just becoming less and less useful as this comes to light. They don't reflect secondary effects from attacks, they're rendered useless after four light attacks, they're too expensive, and now I figured out that they can kill me if a Templar hits me with Total Dark.

FFS, ZOS.

Kelces

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Wings are just becoming less and less useful as this comes to light. They don't reflect secondary effects from attacks, they're rendered useless after four light attacks, they're too expensive, and now I figured out that they can kill me if a Templar hits me with Total Dark.

FFS, ZOS.

They never reflected already active effects - imagine DoT arrows - can't reflect a poison if you already have been stung, obviously. Also, no templar can cast on an immovable target, other than before. This is a major issue for themplars, so it is not too easy for templars now just because of that change...

It depends on the situation, though I would like for the developers to look into the issue of attacks, that go through the wings, maybe because there are too many effects at one time or whatever the issue is. That might be which makes you feel, they are less and less useful. Same as with the buggy mist form, it wouldn't surprise me to see many vampires seeking a cure now.

Savos_Saren

Kelces wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Wings are just becoming less and less useful as this comes to light. They don't reflect secondary effects from attacks, they're rendered useless after four light attacks, they're too expensive, and now I figured out that they can kill me if a Templar hits me with Total Dark.

FFS, ZOS.

They never reflected already active effects - imagine DoT arrows - can't reflect a poison if you already have been stung, obviously.

It depends on the situation, though I would like for the developers to look into the issue of attacks, that go through the wings, maybe because there are too many effects at one time or whatever the issue is. That might be which makes you feel, they are less and less useful. Same as with the buggy mist form, it wouldn't surprise me to see many vampires seeking a cure now.

A DK's defensive tool such as wings shouldn't be able to kill them though. Imagine if DKs had an abilities that could "poison" a Templar's heals... every time they tried to heal, they'd only kill themselves more. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Edited for typo.

ak_pvp

Kelces wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Wings are just becoming less and less useful as this comes to light. They don't reflect secondary effects from attacks, they're rendered useless after four light attacks, they're too expensive, and now I figured out that they can kill me if a Templar hits me with Total Dark.

FFS, ZOS.

They never reflected already active effects - imagine DoT arrows - can't reflect a poison if you already have been stung, obviously.

It depends on the situation, though I would like for the developers to look into the issue of attacks, that go through the wings, maybe because there are too many effects at one time or whatever the issue is. That might be which makes you feel, they are less and less useful. Same as with the buggy mist form, it wouldn't surprise me to see many vampires seeking a cure now.

He means like the defile of snipe, or dots from reach/poison inject, only the direct damage portion. (it worked on occasionally I think, but not always) even when it's up and reflects the actual ability.

casparian

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Yep haha, volatile+jabs and ooh boy it hurts, 4 ticks of it in 1s since volatile procs per melee damage, not per melee attack. And eclipse reflects every single target direct damage.

It never breakfrees properly either. Bashbashbash and a lot of damage later.

How the [snip] can our defensive skills kill us, man? Geez. The counter to that should be that we can reflect the damage from Backlash...

Wings defends you by negating enemy projectiles and doing direct damage to the casting enemy. Of course that direct damage you deal would be reflected by Total Dark. Don't pretend that Wings is solely defensive, either; one of its morphs is explicitly about increasing the reflect damage you deal to other players. The fact that mDK defenses also have offensive components is one thing that makes mDK so strong. The flip side of that is that Total Dark is more dangerous to mDKs than to other classes.

If you're playing correctly, you should only have Total Dark on you for about 1-2 seconds before the break-free works anyway. If you're getting burst down in that time because a templar has lined up a Total Dark reflect + Sweeps combo, maybe you got outplayed.

Savos_Saren

casparian wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Yep haha, volatile+jabs and ooh boy it hurts, 4 ticks of it in 1s since volatile procs per melee damage, not per melee attack. And eclipse reflects every single target direct damage.

It never breakfrees properly either. Bashbashbash and a lot of damage later.

How the [snip] can our defensive skills kill us, man? Geez. The counter to that should be that we can reflect the damage from Backlash...

Wings defends you by negating enemy projectiles and doing direct damage to the casting enemy. Of course that direct damage you deal would be reflected by Total Dark. Don't pretend that Wings is solely defensive, either; one of its morphs is explicitly about increasing the reflect damage you deal to other players. The fact that mDK defenses also have offensive components is one thing that makes mDK so strong. The flip side of that is that Total Dark is more dangerous to mDKs than to other classes.

If you're playing correctly, you should only have Total Dark on you for about 1-2 seconds before the break-free works anyway. If you're getting burst down in that time because a templar has lined up a Total Dark reflect + Sweeps combo, maybe you got outplayed.

Yeah, I seem to be getting outplayed on my mDK more and more these days. It's probably about time to step away for a while. I'll go poke around in the Camelot Unchained forums and see what they're up to.

Goshua

What?! You didn't live long enough to Leap for the win?

DDuke

I can understand reflected spells counting, but Volatile Armor ticks dealing Total Dark damage to the DK is most likely a bug and should be addressed.

Savos_Saren

DDuke wrote: »

I can understand reflected spells counting, but Volatile Armor ticks dealing Total Dark damage to the DK is most likely a bug and should be addressed.

And now I know why you don't slot Wings on your mDK build, DDuke.

Goshua

Spikes cost magicka are projectiles.. so not sure what the problem is

casparian

DDuke wrote: »

I can understand reflected spells counting, but Volatile Armor ticks dealing Total Dark damage to the DK is most likely a bug and should be addressed.

@DDuke are you saying that Volatile Armor DOT ticks are actually dealing Total Dark damage? I'm pretty sure it's the Volatile melee damage return that procs Total Dark, not the DOT ticks. In that case it wouldn't be a bug, since those are individual sources of direct damage, not DOTs.

Savos_Saren

Let's get something completely clear, though. Technically, Eclipse shouldn't reflect back the projectiles that a DK reflects. Look at the verbiage of Eclipse and it's morphs:

"Eclipse: Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful projectile they cast back at them for 3.5 seconds."

A DK does not cast any of the abilities he reflects.

Savos_Saren

casparian wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I can understand reflected spells counting, but Volatile Armor ticks dealing Total Dark damage to the DK is most likely a bug and should be addressed.

@DDuke are you saying that Volatile Armor DOT ticks are actually dealing Total Dark damage? I'm pretty sure it's the Volatile melee damage return that procs Total Dark, not the DOT ticks. In that case it wouldn't be a bug, since those are individual sources of direct damage, not DOTs.

I'm pretty sure that it, too. It's the damage return from the melee. That's why a DK's screwed if it's melee or ranged attacks.

But my main concern is the fact that we don't cast any of the abilities we reflect with wings... so, Eclipse shouldn't reflect it back at us.

casparian

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Let's get something completely clear, though. Technically, Eclipse shouldn't reflect back the projectiles that a DK reflects. Look at the verbiage of Eclipse and it's morphs:

"Eclipse: Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful projectile they cast back at them for 3.5 seconds."

A DK does not cast any of the abilities he reflects.

I think if we descend to that level of nitpicking about the specific verbage of tooltips, we'll find a lot of "bugs" all over the place.

Savos_Saren

casparian wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Let's get something completely clear, though. Technically, Eclipse shouldn't reflect back the projectiles that a DK reflects. Look at the verbiage of Eclipse and it's morphs:

"Eclipse: Envelop enemy in a lightless sphere that reflects back any harmful projectile they cast back at them for 3.5 seconds."

A DK does not cast any of the abilities he reflects.

I think if we descend to that level of nitpicking about the specific verbage of tooltips, we'll find a lot of "bugs" all over the place.

Buuuuuuuut it's true, though. It's a DK defensive ability that is being turned into a suicide ability. I get it, though, Eclipse should shut down an attacker... but the DK isn't attacking you... the DK is defending himself. If I were spamming Stone Giant or Flame Reach, then, yes... I should suffer.

Don't get me wrong- I've got two Templars and my wife mains one.. I think they need all the help they can get. I just don't think this ability should be turning two defensive abilities into something that passively kills a DK.

Asgari

The fact that the armor buff from dk has dmg that can reflectable is crazy.

DK and Templar both have no mobility HOWEVER, Templar can out heal and purify all of the dk dot dmg.

So forcing the dk to then not use its armor buff even further pushes it to the Templar side.

Unbalanced and not good gameplay

casparian

Asgari wrote: »

The fact that the armor buff from dk has dmg that can reflectable is crazy.

DK and Templar both have no mobility HOWEVER, Templar can out heal and purify all of the dk dot dmg.

So forcing the dk to then not use its armor buff even further pushes it to the Templar side.

Unbalanced and not good gameplay

I agree that it's weird, and I'd gladly see it go. But I'd also gladly give up the damage return from Total Dark altogether if I had a CC anything like Fossilize, a HOT anything like Power Lash, an ult anything like Leap, a projectile defense that didn't grant CC immunity, a class source of Major Mending, and a spammable that could be block-cast. Trust me, magplars aren't really happy about Total Dark either -- it's just that we're hurting for some advantage.

Sharee

I believe this(total dark reflecting back at DK something he already reflected with wings) to be a bug.

Reason: It used to be that any reflectable spell could be reflected two times. A DK with wings up could counter another DK's wings - spell went from caster to target, then back to caster, then back to target.

ZOS fixed this so that any spell could only be reflected once. So they clearly do no want an already-reflected spell to be bouncing back and forth. It seems to me they missed total dark when doing the fixing.

Savos_Saren

@ZOS_RichLambert

Any word on this?

Minno

Sharee wrote: »

I believe this(total dark reflecting back at DK something he already reflected with wings) to be a bug.

Reason: It used to be that any reflectable spell could be reflected two times. A DK with wings up could counter another DK's wings - spell went from caster to target, then back to caster, then back to target.

ZOS fixed this so that any spell could only be reflected once. So they clearly do no want an already-reflected spell to be bouncing back and forth. It seems to me they missed total dark when doing the fixing.

Well is it a bug? Maybe oversight, but eclipse doesn't reflect anymore. It causes DMG when the enemy uses direct DMG. There are a few things that are direct DMG:
- status effect procs cause one single direct DMG. This DMG was find to be the reason specific resistance causes immunity to those status effects. But this is why some sorcs cause themselves to take DMG when their AOE armor hits you when you have eclipse on them; the concussion procs and causes eclipse to fire off DMG.
- the armor buff returns DMG on melee DMG cast on the DK. Sadly this DMG is direct DMG. They could either turn one morph so there isn't a passive melee proc DMG, turn the DMG into AOE so it doesn't proc, or keep it knowing that Templars are heavily melee but have no counter to DKs defense who can proc off balance, an AOE immobilze and a self buff reflect.
- everything else that's direct.

Honestly it should stay. There's only one ability in the game that causes cc immunity, requires a GCD with a target, and is completely negated by a potion effect (eclipse).