[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

OrphanHelgen

1: No reason to go poison builds compared to physical builds, where other classes get more benefit. The swamp rider set for example, doesn't boost alchemy poisons, enchants, proc sets or the status effect.
Every other stam dps class benefit more from physical damage and direct damage than a DK. Examples are:
Sorcs: Higher stamina pool and % to physical dmg
Templar: Higher crit dmg and wpn dmg.
Nighblade: Higher crit chance and crit dmg.

DK's are suppose to be stronger on poison damage, but even skills like poison injection will hit harder on other classes due to the poison dmg passive on dk only count on poison AOE and not the dot itself. I read patch notes july 9th where noxious breath now get the damage boost from passive, but that is so little it won't be noticed.

One suggestion among many could be to make molten armamnets or igneous weapons to convert your light and heavy attacks from physical to poison damage as well as changing the swamp raider set to work on more than just the abilities.

I'm not saying this to overbuff my main character, but it's really sad to see all these sets and abilities in the game, where only like 5% of the sets are being used.

Savos_Saren

@BohnT

Man, I swear that ZOS acknowledged the fact that StamDKs felt like they didn't have enough stam-based class skills and that they didn't feel they had "identity". Then ZOS just changes one of the few class abilities they have? No actual additions to stamina abilities?!?!

And I quote (from their notes):

Dragonknights
Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff

BohnT

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@BohnT

Man, I swear that ZOS acknowledged the fact that StamDKs felt like they didn't have enough stam-based class skills and that they didn't feel they had "identity". Then ZOS just changes one of the few class abilities they have? No actual additions to stamina abilities?!?!

And I quote (from their notes):

Dragonknights
Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff

Well after 1 year (of stamdk in its current state) i actually feel like a stamdk when i log on with mine because i got used to not having a single reason to play it and that's exactly what stamdk gives me

Savos_Saren

To be fair: ZOS did give the snare immunity and *attempted* a change that would "help" with World in Ruin. It is a step in the right direction...

I'm going to hop back on the PTS and try to advocate for a few more changes before it rolls out live. Maybe another stamina-morph to help with World In Ruin. (I'm looking at Dark Talons and/or Deep Breath)

Farscape76

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

BohnT

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

#stamspammableforDK

Savos_Saren

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Again, that's on Wrobel's aint-no-way-in-hell list. Right next to mDK execute, MagSorc spammable, Warden stun, etc.

But, I'll roll with it.

#stamDKwhip
#magDKexecute

Ragnarock41

BohnT wrote: »

Some testing on the pts with the new 'buff' to noxious breath:
i used a high Damage build (38k stam 7.5k wpndmg) and my noxious breath dot hits for the following numbers on a target Skeleton:
Without Points into World in Ruins: 2786 and 4513!
With World in Ruins: 2917 and 4725!

1. that's only an increase of 4.7% (diminishing Returns i guess)
2. if we look at that buff in pvp on an unplayable, unuseable build that's only specced into Damage the Damage increase in pvp will be less than 100 Damage, freaking 100 Damage per tick that's not a buff that's a slap to the face for everyone hoping to see a buff

so basically noxious breath is as garbage as it was before. I wasn't wrong on my expectations.

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Some testing on the pts with the new 'buff' to noxious breath:
i used a high Damage build (38k stam 7.5k wpndmg) and my noxious breath dot hits for the following numbers on a target Skeleton:
Without Points into World in Ruins: 2786 and 4513!
With World in Ruins: 2917 and 4725!

1. that's only an increase of 4.7% (diminishing Returns i guess)
2. if we look at that buff in pvp on an unplayable, unuseable build that's only specced into Damage the Damage increase in pvp will be less than 100 Damage, freaking 100 Damage per tick that's not a buff that's a slap to the face for everyone hoping to see a buff

so basically noxious breath is as garbage as it was before.

yes, just wanted to Show how useless that 'buff' is

Ragnarock41

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Some testing on the pts with the new 'buff' to noxious breath:
i used a high Damage build (38k stam 7.5k wpndmg) and my noxious breath dot hits for the following numbers on a target Skeleton:
Without Points into World in Ruins: 2786 and 4513!
With World in Ruins: 2917 and 4725!

1. that's only an increase of 4.7% (diminishing Returns i guess)
2. if we look at that buff in pvp on an unplayable, unuseable build that's only specced into Damage the Damage increase in pvp will be less than 100 Damage, freaking 100 Damage per tick that's not a buff that's a slap to the face for everyone hoping to see a buff

so basically noxious breath is as garbage as it was before.

yes, just wanted to Show how useless that 'buff' is

But why even try at this point? Clearly they do not care.

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Some testing on the pts with the new 'buff' to noxious breath:
i used a high Damage build (38k stam 7.5k wpndmg) and my noxious breath dot hits for the following numbers on a target Skeleton:
Without Points into World in Ruins: 2786 and 4513!
With World in Ruins: 2917 and 4725!

1. that's only an increase of 4.7% (diminishing Returns i guess)
2. if we look at that buff in pvp on an unplayable, unuseable build that's only specced into Damage the Damage increase in pvp will be less than 100 Damage, freaking 100 Damage per tick that's not a buff that's a slap to the face for everyone hoping to see a buff

so basically noxious breath is as garbage as it was before.

yes, just wanted to Show how useless that 'buff' is

But why even try at this point? Clearly they do not care.

masochism i guess

Asmael

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

Skoomah

We need a class direct damage spammable. Do you play a stam dk? Or you just here to troll? I’m sick of being boxed into dots and bleeds to be effective.

By the time the dots amp up, you’re either snared to death or blown up.

Why do people fight us on the request for class spammable? All these arguments against it are disingenuous.

Class reps, did you guys bring this up with the devs yet? Imbue weapons is a crap skill. It’s not a spammable.

Ragnarock41

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

Just couldn't have said this better myself even If I tried my best. A poison whip or stamina stonefist or whatever will make absolutely no difference, unless its buffed to the point it overperforms.

Skoomah

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

BohnT

Asmael wrote: »

Farscape76 wrote: »

StamDK needs a spammable... poison whip would seem to require the least effort on the part of ZOS and have the most potential for players, really disappointed that didn't make it into this round on the PTS

Stam whip isn't going to solve stam DK issues. As much as it is requested and as much people think of it as a way to bring back stam DK, it won't solve anything be it PvE or PvP.

We have a PvE spammable already, yet the difference with other specs is such a poison whip would have to massively outperform every other option to make up for the class lacking any decent aggressive passives. Stam DKs will just lose the second they have to use a spammable as long as it doesn't improve their DoTs like the VMA daggers used to. Because:

Templar

• Increase your Critical Damage by 10%
• Increases Weapon Damage by 6%
• (burning light if you compare Jabs to Crushing weapon)
• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 4%.

Sorcerer

• Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.
• Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.
• Increases [..] Weapon Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
• Implosion passive

Nightblade

• Increases damage dealt by Critical Damage done by 10%.
• Increases your Weapon [...]l Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.
• After drinking a potion you gain 20 Ultimate.

Stam wardens also happen to be in a *** spot PvE wise same way as stam DKs, because guess what:

• Increases your damage done by 2% for each Animal Companion ability slotted

Most of their abilities slotted aren't class abilities. Same way as stam DKs:

• Increases the damage of Flame and Poison area of effect abilities by 6%.

(I didn't add the ult gain from casting an ability from a specific skill line, since that's a common trait among all classes)

As PvE DDs have 80% of their abilities being the same non-class abilities, what dominates is whatever has the most passive abilities that increase their damage as a whole. DKs have essentially no synergy whatsoever with anything that isn't a class ability besides Acid Spray. Stam Wardens do have a synergy with non-class abilities, but can't make the best out of those because they cannot slot enough class abilities in the first place to benefit from those.

Which is why stam whip isn't going to do anything unless you add an effect that's essentially going to make it blatantly overpowered.

I'd like to have at the very least a synergy with poison proc sets and such, but the thing is: they are actually the worst class with those. The "poison" class is the one with the least synergies with those.

Since someone might be tempted to say that DKs have good sustain to help them sustain a spammable: they don't have a single increase to their %stamina recovery. Stam DKs benefit from sustaining solely from flat resource returns and the advantage will fall more in favor of other specs if you have to invest into stamina recovery.

As for PvP, if you want to be a stamblade with no cloak, no assassin's will, no shadow image, then yes, adding a stamina whip is the way to go. And I can assure you it won't make stamina DKs any more popular in PvP than they currently are.

There are issues, there are outdated passives and abilities, there are missing synergies in a few aspects. That's how you fix stamina DK, not by adding something that redundant and actually increases the gap between stam DK and other specs.

Thanks for summing up everything that's wrong with stamdk.
I totally agree that a stamwhip alone won't make stamdk viable, when i play on my stamplar and i can't use jabs i always think how i still have purge, PotL over a stamdk.
But i think a staminawhip could be the first step into making stamdk good and viable again and also create a synergy between skills and passives for the stamdk class.

With a stamina whip that procs like power lash on poisoned enemies and grants an additional effect (more damage, buff etc.) while also giving stamdk a poison deep breath that poisons all enemies on the second hit and deals more damage with the second hit but heals for less on the first drain.
This would create a synergy with all dots, deep breath and the spammable and it would synergise well with combustion.

There are still crappy passives e.g. world in ruins (as explained above a 200 dot damage increase when used on a build with 7.5k wpn/38k stamina in PvE! meaning less than 50 damage in pvp for most builds)
and let's not talk about elder dragon.

It's not the end all be all solution but at least it would give stamdk something that sets it apart from other classes apart from not having anything they have

Savos_Saren

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

BohnT

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

Well I'm sure kitty would have won the stamdk tournament.
There are few people which still excel playing a stamdk and of all those i think kitty has the best game knowledge for both PvE and PvP.

Skoomah

I challenge you to a duel. Winner take all. To the death!

D0ntevenL1ft

RIP defile the only thing stam dk's could use to come close to average.

reiverx

I think everyone has given up on this thread.

BohnT

reiverx wrote: »

I think everyone has given up on this thread.

just like they did on stamdk

JumpmanLane

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

I’ve seen Quantum roaming around Cyrodiil. He’s ok. Lol.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

They should have picked class reps through a dueling tournament. This thread is garbage.

You definitely don't want to be represented by duelists. It's not a good representation of PVE or open-world PVP. Dueling is like .0001% of this game.

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved by basing an ability off of max resource (stam or mag)… much like Flames of Oblivion, Domihaus, etc.

ZOS could change Molten Whip, Choking Talons, and Deep Breath to be either fire or poison damage... whichever resource was higher.

I unno, best magdk I know in PvP or PvE is a great and well known duelist.

Toc de Malsvi

reiverx wrote: »

I think everyone has given up on this thread.

Well there isn't a lot new to say. Not much has changed since the beginning of this thread and it doesn't look like there will be many changes for DKs in the PTS. Concerns have been communicated and the rep has likely read them. Now its a waiting game, it will be awhile before any significant changes occur in all probability. By then who knows if anyone will remember specifics from this thread.

FloppyTouch

reiverx wrote: »

I think everyone has given up on this thread.

Meanwhile the nb and sorc one is blowing about about how OP each other is and how easy they are to counter. Dks and templars are just sitting back like yep we are used to being forgotten about.

Sleep724

Well, they did finally give Wings a 2 second snare immunity, so we got that going for us which is nice...

sly007

Change take flight to poison damage. It will be buffed by the the class fire and poison passive.

Enslaved

sly007 wrote: »

Change take flight to poison damage. It will be buffed by the the class fire and poison passive.

So that my automaton does not buff my only direct damage burst skill? NO TY.

reiverx

I have to admit, I was expecting some improvements for my magDK. As a PVPer, I started getting into VMA because PVP is so unplayable on the PS4. I was really shocked at how empty the leaderboards are for the DK.

ZOS tell us there's 11 million accounts spread evenly between all platforms. So why were there only 25 people on the DK VMA leaderboard last week?

Now I'm seeing it from a PVE perspective and it is very discouraging.

Ragnarock41

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

RIP defile the only thing stam dk's could use to come close to average.

Sleep724 wrote: »

Well, they did finally give Wings a 2 second snare immunity, so we got that going for us which is nice...

Yes, not all is lost at least. But with the lost defile from reverb, hard days are over for stamDk..


Now its time for even harder days. Enjoy spamming reverb on basically %25 of your GCDs.