Strife changes vs. Conjured Ward changes

Jerkling

lol, you people are beyond silly. you did't even try to understand what i'm saying, instead you all just jump on the convenient nerf-sorc-hate band waggon so you can make a snarky comment and look like a cool kid, m'aw.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Someone really hates sorcerers.

actually i love sorcs, i play one myself.

Minalan wrote: »

We have our first ‘nerf sorc’ Post.

Super low cost on hardened ward... lol

er, no. noone said anything about nerfing anything. and yes, compared to the other shield abilities it has the (super) lowest cost.

ezio45 wrote: »

dont scream nerf other classes if you really want your class buffed.

where exactly do i "scream nerf"?

Vaoh wrote: »

Someone hates Sorc so much they compare Strife toooooo...... Conjured Ward ...

I might have seen it all now

like i said above, i don't hate sorcs. and (again) yes, i compare those to abilities to ask the question why one of them seems to need to be adjusted and the other doesn't.

also, who cares what you have seen. who are you are you anyways and why would anyone care?

Feanor

@Jerkling

I think everyone perfectly got what you tried to say. Your question makes sense in two ways only:

1) You think the Strife change should be reverted because other abilities are not getting streamlined as well, or

2) You think other abilities should be adjusted as well so everyone gets a nerf.

The first possibility is wrong because, as someone pointed out, the lower cost of Hardened Ward is justified because it has no secondary effect like the other shields have.

The second possibility is just there to make NBs feel better because everyone gets shafted.

Both are equally wrong.

Jerkling

Derra wrote: »

Why is cloak still allowed to reign supreme over detect invis pots.
Why is elude still allowed to reign supreme over shuffle - YOU`RE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO SLOT THE LATTER ANYMORE on anything but medium.
Why is incap still allowed to reigh supreme over other singletarget ultimates.
Why does NB get so many skills that don´t even have a counterpart everyone can use with similar function?
NERF NERF NERF

why are you asking me? open your own thread and ask ZOS.

xericdx wrote: »

Comparing shields by only taking into account the shield size is either very biased or done with no knowledge about skills, sorry. Harden is the only shield without additional effects (damage for blazing, synergy for bones, magika returns for dampen, etc.).
With this kind of comments then we wonder why zos don't listen to the community....

that's the exact reason why you can't really compare these abilities. but by only focusing on the personal shield effect you get somewhat of a reference.

thankyourat

Juhasow wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

This update proved beyond any doubt that nb players have some serious issues with balance if it touches them. What will happen when there will be update that will really balance this class ? They'll start protest with banners under Zenimax headquaters ?

NBs have a point on strife though - the only logical reason for ZOS to touch strife is to make imbue weapon more appealing in comparison (aka BIS) to force anyone looking for 100% pve performance to buy the addon.

Imho

So You're saying everything was ok with current state of Strife in PvE compared to other magicka spammables ? Seriously the amount of people that didnt see that change coming is staggering. With or without new abilitie to replace Strife it was obvious at some point it'll be nerfed. Was it proper nerf is different story but lets not make it suprising that the nerf occured or lets not play stupid it wasnt needed.

Well it's not just PVE in PvP the skill was fine I would say magblade preforms better than other Magicka classes in PvP either. (Maybe mag warden) magblade is already incredibly difficult to play in cyrodiil compared to other classes why Nerf it. If you want a PvE Nerf why not Nerf something nightblades use in PVE. Magblades seems to always get nerfed because of stamblade or PvE. It's getting kind of ridiculous

Jerkling

Feanor wrote: »

@Jerkling

I think everyone perfectly got what you tried to say. Your question makes sense in two ways only:

1) You think the Strife change should be reverted because other abilities are not getting streamlined as well, or

2) You think other abilities should be adjusted as well so everyone gets a nerf.

The first possibility is wrong because, as someone pointed out, the lower cost of Hardened Ward is justified because it has no secondary effect like the other shields have.

The second possibility is just there to make NBs feel better because everyone gets shafted.

Both are equally wrong.

er, no. i think that if you make changes to the game, ie abilities, and make a comment like this

Developer Comment:
This change was made to put the Strife ability cost more in line with other similar types of abilities, such as Force Shock.

you should use the same rationale when it comes to other abilities as well. i do not howerver ask for any kind of nerf, i'm just daring to ask a question that should get you thinking.

and that Hardened Ward is the only ability without secondary effects is simply not true since Dampen Magic doesn't have secondary effects either (tho you could argue that HW does in fact have a secondary effect), yet it has the highest cost. so how is the cost of the former justified then?

sorry, but quite frankly i don't need you to tell me what's wrong or not or what i mean by what i wrote or how it makes sense. so how about you keep all you judging to yourself and either participate in an orderly discussion or just shut up.

Feanor

According to your table Dampen Magicka is the stronger shield. You can argue it should be cheaper. But you can’t argue Hardened Ward should cost more unless you just want a Sorc nerf.

Apherius

Lol

What next ? Nerf Dark deal to make it more in line with Equilibrium ?

Jerkling

Feanor wrote: »

According to your table Dampen Magicka is the stronger shield. You can argue it should be cheaper. But you can’t argue Hardened Ward should cost more unless you just want a Sorc nerf.

polemic. you could make the reverse argument for Dampen Magic then. i went with Hardened Ward, deal with it.

Feanor

Jerkling wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

According to your table Dampen Magicka is the stronger shield. You can argue it should be cheaper. But you can’t argue Hardened Ward should cost more unless you just want a Sorc nerf.

polemic. you could make the reverse argument for Dampen Magic then. i went with Hardened Ward, deal with it.

It makes no sense for both Hardened Ward and Dampen Magic to cost as much as the other shields without actually having a secondary effect. If Hardened Ward gets a cost increase, a non-shield stacking Sorc will simply switch to Harness.

[Edited to remove assumption about user intention]

Jerkling

well, all i see is someone who want's to be right at all costs. and you don't get to establish anything, you don't get to imply, you don't get to assume, you don't get to say what i mean or what i'm saying or what i'm pleaing for or what i'm disguising what as what.

either argue there is or is not validity to my question or gtfo, since you're not contributing in any way.

Derra

Jerkling wrote: »

well, all i see is someone who want's to be right at all costs. and you don't get to establish anything, you don't get to imply, you don't get to assume, you don't get to say what i mean or what i'm saying or what i'm pleaing for or what i'm disguising what as what.

So tell us what it is then. Since you´re purposefully vague you´re not really being constructive either.

Edit: As for your main point:
There is only one shield that´s comparable to hardened ward. That would be dampen magica. You can either argue that one is too cheap or the other is too expensive - but since it´s only two abilities there is no evidence pointing one way or the other. All other shields serve massivly different purposes than the beforementioned two.

This is not the case for strife compared to: Lavawhip, Force Pulse, Concealed weapon, imbue weapon, masterreach - which all fill the role of a damage spammable attack being a possible point of reference for magica cost.

So your comparison is biased and wrong.

Feanor

There is no validity to your question in my opinion.

Hardened Ward: Strong shield, no secondary effect
Dampen Magic: Slightly stronger shield, no secondary effect
Blazing Shield: Weaker shield, but damages players that hit it
Bone Shield: Weaker Shield but group synergy, therefore the cost
Obsidian Shield: Weaker Shield, but either grants Major Mending or damages
Healing Ward: Weaker shield, but grants a small initial heal and a strong heal after the shield expires

Strife: Damage + HoT or Minor Vitality
Force Pulse: Damage + chance to proc status effects + AoE damage to players that already have an active status effect
Elemental Weapon: Damage + guaranteed status effect proc

As for the shields, Dampen Magic is the strongest shield. It costs 1k magicka more. You can of course argue that the difference in shield strength is so small that the cost of Hardened Ward would have to be in the same region than Dampen Magic. It's quite simple why the answer can't be to adjust the cost of Hardened Ward: noCP PvP. In noCP you have no Bastion, and you look at a typical 7k Hardened Ward on a build with 40k max mag (no CP magicka bonus available there too). If you increase the cost to more than 4k max magicka the strain on the already bad Sorc sustain would be too much. Therefore, you can only argue that Dampen Magic should be cheaper if anything.

Now, to the actual point of your post. Strife.

The base damage of Strife (1749) and morphs (1803) is close to Force Pulse (3 x 579 = 1737) and more than twice of Elemental Weapon (739). Yet Strife and morphs have a base cost of 1803 magicka whereas Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon cost 2700 base. That's not even touching the secondary effects. An adjustment to Strife is justified already if you only look on the damage values.

Whether an increase to 2700 is too much for NB sustain and shouldn't be done therefore is an entirely different argument than saying Strife shouldn't be changed because Hardened Ward remains as is, or Hardened Ward should be adjusted because Strife is.

Jerkling

Derra wrote: »

So tell us what it is then. Since you´re purposefully vague you´re not really being constructive either.

i thought i was pretty clear, but since so many of your comments took a different direction it seems obvious i wasn't.

what i'm taking issue with is this argument

Developer Comment:
This change was made to put the Strife ability cost more in line with other similar types of abilities, such as Force Shock."

so i asked why this rationale is valid for Strife but seemingly not for other abilities. the reason i chose Hardened Ward here is because i like Damage Shields alot and most of my builds use them, so it's only natural for me to jump on that (which ofc makes me biased in a way). i have done the math, know what works how and when, i'm comfortable in this area.
the 3 chars i play the most are a magblade, a petsorc and a beamplar and i love them almost equally, so any nerf-sorc-hate argument is sonsense, just saying.

Derra wrote: »

Edit: As for your main point:
There is only one shield that´s comparable to hardened ward. That would be dampen magica. You can either argue that one is too cheap or the other is too expensive - but since it´s only two abilities there is no evidence pointing one way or the other. All other shields serve massivly different purposes than the beforementioned two.

This is not the case for strife compared to: Lavawhip, Force Pulse, Concealed weapon, imbue weapon, masterreach - which all fill the role of a damage spammable attack being a possible point of reference for magica cost.

and here is my point, which you are actually illustrating quite well here. we all agree that it's hard to compare the Damage Shield abilities because of some of the secondary effects. but if you're looking at it from a pure spammable damage shield perspective you can.

Hardened Ward and Dampen Magic scale of Magicka which is a natural plus for magicka users, they get a strong shield that's spammable. this however does not work for the other Damage Shields as they scale of Health (or in case of Healing Ward are simply not meant to be spammable). so you'd have to choose between it being a strong shield or a spammable. so to compare them you'd have to make them spammables; which in turn makes them costly yet weak shields.
ofc you can argue that this is a stupid way to compare them and that that's for the most part not how they are used, but you can make the same argument for Strife as well, as you can't compare a damage+hot with a damage+interrupt. they are similar ...as are the Damage Shield abilities.

Derra wrote: »

So your comparison is biased and wrong.

yes and no. yes, i'm in a way biased and no, i don't think i'm wrong.

Feanor wrote: »

As for the shields, Dampen Magic is the strongest shield. It costs 1k magicka more. You can of course argue that the difference in shield strength is so small that the cost of Hardened Ward would have to be in the same region than Dampen Magic. It's quite simple why the answer can't be to adjust the cost of Hardened Ward: noCP PvP. In noCP you have no Bastion, and you look at a typical 7k Hardened Ward on a build with 40k max mag (no CP magicka bonus available there too). If you increase the cost to more than 4k max magicka the strain on the already bad Sorc sustain would be too much. Therefore, you can only argue that Dampen Magic should be cheaper if anything.

i can't agree. i don't think that noCP PVP is a selling point here, it's just one aspect of the game and in my oppinion wouldn't justify one abilitie outperforming similar abilities in every other situation. and don't Templars have also bad sustain in PvP (seriously, i don't know)?

Feanor wrote: »

[...] An adjustment to Strife is justified already if you only look on the damage values.

Whether an increase to 2700 is too much for NB sustain and shouldn't be done therefore is an entirely different argument than saying Strife shouldn't be changed because Hardened Ward remains as is, or Hardened Ward should be adjusted because Strife is.

i'm not arguing at any point that anything should be adjusted/changed/nerfed/whatever or whether any changes are justified or not. i'm asking why Strife does get changed while using the same argument Hardened Ward doesn't. something i was asking myself since i read the Summerset patch notes and that i'm now asking in the forum to invite everyone to explore and discuss.

Minalan

Magblades weren’t hit quite as hard as the rest of us by Morrowind sustain changes. So they fixed that.

Welcome to the club-house with the rest of us! Take a sustain glyph or two and heavy attack once in a while and you’ll be okay.

Feanor

i can't agree. i don't think that noCP PVP is a selling point here, it's just one aspect of the game and in my oppinion wouldn't justify one abilitie outperforming similar abilities in every other situation. and don't Templars have also bad sustain in PvP (seriously, i don't know)?

If you take Battlegrounds into account - which are going to be included in the base game with Update 18 - noCP isn’t some sort of marginal endeavour you can simply neglect when it comes to balance. In fact, that noCP exists is one of the reasons why balance is so difficult. ZOS continually has to find the sweet spot between an ability being actually useful in noCP and not being overpowered in CP. That’s a tough task.

Increasing Hardened Ward cost would leave Sorcs with a way weaker defense in noCP and - because of the strain on sustain - way weaker offensive possibilities. And that’s another difference to Strife - Hardened Ward is the main Sorc defense, whereas Strife is an offensive option among many others for NB.

Templars have bad sustain in noCP, especially the stamina variety, but Blazing Shield is typically utilized on a Blazeplar build - a high HP Templar that uses Blazing Shield as his main damage form and doesn’t need to sustain that much. These builds have been hit by the nerfs to shield duration and only recently are seen again.

Dracane

The problem is not with conjured ward, the problem is with Annulment. Annulment is waaay to expensive for how little it does. This is fine when it comes to harness magicka, because it's supposed to be used against magic, which results in you actually gaining more magicka than you spend.

But dampen magic makes no sense. Such a high cost for a shield that has no secondary effects, is ridiculous. Dampen magic should increase in strenght and decrease in cost with each piece of light armor.

Chilly-McFreeze

Dracane wrote: »

The problem is not with conjured ward, the problem is with Annulment. Annulment is waaay to expensive for how little it does. This is fine when it comes to harness magicka, because it's supposed to be used against magic, which results in you actually gaining more magicka than you spend.

But dampen magic makes no sense. Such a high cost for a shield that has no secondary effects, is ridiculous. Dampen magic should increase in strenght and decrease in cost with each piece of light armor.

To what extend? What’s the purpose of hardened ward then? In a non-stacking scenario.
Please also take into consideration that wards are the only reliable form of defense on a non-pet sorc.

Derra

Jerkling wrote: »

Hardened Ward and Dampen Magic scale of Magicka which is a natural plus for magicka users, they get a strong shield that's spammable. this however does not work for the other Damage Shields as they scale of Health (or in case of Healing Ward are simply not meant to be spammable). so you'd have to choose between it being a strong shield or a spammable. so to compare them you'd have to make them spammables; which in turn makes them costly yet weak shields.
ofc you can argue that this is a stupid way to compare them and that that's for the most part not how they are used, but you can make the same argument for Strife as well, as you can't compare a damage+hot with a damage+interrupt. they are similar ...as are the Damage Shield abilities.

Which is a strawman argument (as you admit yourself because you have to twist the argument for shields and for strife) - because 9 of 10 times only annulment + hardened will be used as spammable shields.

On the other hand the times that funnel serves as a pure hot is probably the other way round when comparing it to it´s use as a dmging spammable. 9 out of 10 nbs will use strife as a dmg spammable - so the comparison is a lot more adequate.

Aebaradath

Joy_Division wrote: »

Someone really hates sorcerers.

You called?

thankyourat

Minalan wrote: »

Magblades weren’t hit quite as hard as the rest of us by Morrowind sustain changes. So they fixed that.

Welcome to the club-house with the rest of us! Take a sustain glyph or two and heavy attack once in a while and you’ll be okay.

I already wear 2 to 3 sustain glyphs unless I'm using lich as is. I can't fit anymore sustain glyphs into my build. Most magblades build just as much sustain as mag sorc. Honestly I think open world mag sorc is a little easier to sustain because of harness Magicka and dark deal. That's closer if magblades run harness as well, but then your shield is small.

NyassaV

Juhasow wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

This update proved beyond any doubt that nb players have some serious issues with balance if it touches them. What will happen when there will be update that will really balance this class ? They'll start protest with banners under Zenimax headquaters ?

NBs have a point on strife though - the only logical reason for ZOS to touch strife is to make imbue weapon more appealing in comparison (aka BIS) to force anyone looking for 100% pve performance to buy the addon.

Imho

So You're saying everything was ok with current state of Strife in PvE compared to other magicka spammables ? Seriously the amount of people that didnt see that change coming is staggering. With or without new abilitie to replace Strife it was obvious at some point it'll be nerfed. Was it proper nerf is different story but lets not make it suprising that the nerf occured or lets not play stupid it wasnt needed.

The strife change doesn't matter much in PvE. It heavily effects PvP though

NyassaV

Feanor wrote: »

The obsession with the strife cost change is getting ridiculous.

Cuz it's the only hugely stupid change this patch.

arkansas_ESO

Minalan wrote: »

Magblades weren’t hit quite as hard as the rest of us by Morrowind sustain changes. So they fixed that.

Welcome to the club-house with the rest of us! Take a sustain glyph or two and heavy attack once in a while and you’ll be okay.

Cool. Do I now get a cheap second shield to stack with my Harness and Curse to make up for the damage I lose by building for sustain?

Dracane

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The problem is not with conjured ward, the problem is with Annulment. Annulment is waaay to expensive for how little it does. This is fine when it comes to harness magicka, because it's supposed to be used against magic, which results in you actually gaining more magicka than you spend.

But dampen magic makes no sense. Such a high cost for a shield that has no secondary effects, is ridiculous. Dampen magic should increase in strenght and decrease in cost with each piece of light armor.

To what extend? What’s the purpose of hardened ward then? In a non-stacking scenario.
Please also take into consideration that wards are the only reliable form of defense on a non-pet sorc.

Your question just fortifies the point, that hardened ward isn't as good as the creator of this thread makes it out to be.

IZZEFlameLash

Jerkling wrote: »

lol, you people are beyond silly. you did't even try to understand what i'm saying, instead you all just jump on the convenient nerf-sorc-hate band waggon so you can make a snarky comment and look like a cool kid, m'aw.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Someone really hates sorcerers.

actually i love sorcs, i play one myself.

Minalan wrote: »

We have our first ‘nerf sorc’ Post.

Super low cost on hardened ward... lol

er, no. noone said anything about nerfing anything. and yes, compared to the other shield abilities it has the (super) lowest cost.

ezio45 wrote: »

dont scream nerf other classes if you really want your class buffed.

where exactly do i "scream nerf"?

Vaoh wrote: »

Someone hates Sorc so much they compare Strife toooooo...... Conjured Ward ...

I might have seen it all now

like i said above, i don't hate sorcs. and (again) yes, i compare those to abilities to ask the question why one of them seems to need to be adjusted and the other doesn't.

also, who cares what you have seen. who are you are you anyways and why would anyone care?

You may try to say you are not asking for nerf but the purpose of the comparison is very clear. People are freaking out over Strife cost increase to 2.7k is too much and yet you say conjured ward is super cheap when it costs more than 3k. Then you proceeded to ask why it is left to "reign supreme". Guess what? If you factor Harness Magicka's magicka return on magicka based damage, it becomes the cheapest shield which all magicka builds can access at a very decent strength. Especially if you build for shield strength.

You may have been subtle but your intent was really clear. You want shield cost increase on a class with already a lot more troubles than Strife cost increase is going to bring to NBs. Why don't we try spam hardened ward, the cheapest shield skill and see how we fare in sustain? And then compare pre-nerf Strife? Not a valid comparison at all because Strife spam is much more feasible than shield spam. And these 2 skills are opposite of each other. Strife is a damage ability, Conjured Ward is a defensive ability that is basically extra health layer with 0 resistance attached to it which means it will take tooltip damage in full. It is not like it costs about 1k more than Strife even after cost increase.

brandonv516

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sorcs have very poor self-heals

Really? Here I was thinking Critical/Power Surge and Dark Deal/Conversion were really good. I'm glad you set me on the right path though!

Thanks!

Minalan

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magblades weren’t hit quite as hard as the rest of us by Morrowind sustain changes. So they fixed that.

Welcome to the club-house with the rest of us! Take a sustain glyph or two and heavy attack once in a while and you’ll be okay.

Cool. Do I now get a cheap second shield to stack with my Harness and Curse to make up for the damage I lose by building for sustain?

Trade you hardened ward for cloak, and curse for merciless!

We all have access to the pay to win goodies next patch.

Minalan

brandonv516 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sorcs have very poor self-heals

Really? Here I was thinking Critical/Power Surge and Dark Deal/Conversion were really good. I'm glad you set me on the right path though!

Thanks!

Crit Surge works, but it’s not so good without a class DOT, which is why many of us would rather have a DOT put on rune cage instead of a flat 4K.

Healing up with dark deal? Lol. 4K or so after a little less than a second and a half channel? That doesn’t save you from execute range. You need the twilight heal for that, which requires double/triple slots, and a stupid pet that dies constantly or gets stuck. And it’s *expensive*.

ccfeeling

Minalan wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Magblades weren’t hit quite as hard as the rest of us by Morrowind sustain changes. So they fixed that.

Welcome to the club-house with the rest of us! Take a sustain glyph or two and heavy attack once in a while and you’ll be okay.

Cool. Do I now get a cheap second shield to stack with my Harness and Curse to make up for the damage I lose by building for sustain?

Trade you hardened ward for cloak, and curse for merciless!

We all have access to the pay to win goodies next patch.

I love Merciless

brandonv516

Minalan wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sorcs have very poor self-heals

Really? Here I was thinking Critical/Power Surge and Dark Deal/Conversion were really good. I'm glad you set me on the right path though!

Thanks!

Crit Surge works, but it’s not so good without a class DOT, which is why many of us would rather have a DOT put on rune cage instead of a flat 4K.

Healing up with dark deal? Lol. 4K or so after a little less than a second and a half channel? That doesn’t save you from execute range. You need the twilight heal for that, which requires double/triple slots, and a stupid pet that dies constantly or gets stuck. And it’s *expensive*.

You dont need a class based DoT to get the heals from Power/Critical Surge.

Dark Conversion/Deal might not save you from execute range but that's why shield stacking is a thing.

I really question some people's ability to play Sorcerer when they can't survive with massive shields, Streak, and these two self heals.