Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

ThinkerOfThings

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I guess sports card collection packs from the 80s and 90s and panini sticker books ar

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

So we are going with the twitterbook definition of predatory then... Adj. Anything i dont like.


EDIT: I guess sports card collection packs such as Topps and panini sticker books are/were predatory too

I could argue that taking advantage of a gambling addiction is predatory. However we have socially acceptable forms of predatory marketing such as impulse items on shelves next to cash registers.

It is what it is. *Shrug*

Again, we can go with:
* A bar/pub selling alcohol to an alcoholic.
* A candy store selling chocolate to a chocoholic.
* A casino making sure no one with gambling problems enters.

At the end of the day people need to take responsibility for themselves. But its already been determined, as i pointed out earlier, that studies show that people who buy chance crates are not in fact gamblers, they are for the lack of a better word vane people. People who care about appearance and feel the need to "keep up with the Jones". They create an artificial problem that only applies to them and then want everyone else to suffer to fix their problem. Why should i suffer because someone feels the need to own a specific mount in the game? That is a personal problem. The problem is not with chance boxes the problem is with the person who decided they MUST have that specific item.

I don't disagree, people should take responsibility for themselves. However I highly doubt that when performing market research for crown crates that getting revenue from folks with a gambling addiction wasn't a factor, any comprehensive study would take into account a variety of consumers. And I see your point about people wanting to purchase things to make their characters look "cool" however I doubt vanity is the prime factor there, alot of that can be just personal preference. Otherwise the only folks who aren't "vane" would be slovenly neckbearded basement dwellers.

I don't blame ZOS for wanting to make additional revenue, they are a company after all. Company's regularly donate to charity to take advantage of tax loop holes to avoid paying taxes, not because they are altruistic. This ultimately is a detriment to the common good as those taxes are used for services such as defense, education, act. However, do you think that matters to the family of the little kid that had his cancer treatment paid for by that very same donation? Probably not.

I think my biggest concern with loot boxes is trust. If someone purchases something from a company and doesn't receive what they were wanting, even if it is very obvious that they might not get it, that generally causes someone to feel less inclined to make further purchases from that company. This ultimately hurts that company's brand.

I myself have purchased crown crates in the past, however I went into with the understanding that I am likely not going to get what I want, that way I don't really care about the results. Conversely the less I care about it, the less inclined I am to continue playing, eventually getting bored and moving on.

Like most things there are good sides and bad sides.

Honestly, if ZOS used this money to bring back some star quality voice actors such as Alfred Molina as Abnur Tharn, I could consider loot crates as an investment.

Just some thoughts.

kargen27

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Its exactly like a slot machine, which is gambling. You put money you don't know what you get

Maybe more than people realize.

A study was done using slot machines. They had some machines that offered better odds of winning and higher payouts but no bells and whistles. Other machines had lower payouts but when you did win bells would chime lights would blink and all kinds of fun things would happen. The machines with all the bells and whistles were much more popular than the ones without.
With the crown crates if you have a card that has an apex award you know it before you flip the card because you get bells and whistles. Then when you flip it you get them again. It's the hoopla that gets people to spend more than they might want to spend. It's simply the way most people are wired and the gaming industry across all platforms (especially those silly little free to play phone aps) take full advantage.
I'm a big fan of people being responsible for their own actions though so I hope government doesn't step in and try to protect us from ourselves.

Marginis

Istoppucks wrote: »

Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

My issue with this (aside from the obvious bias and condescending tone) is the basis of your definition of value. Value of a thing is not determined by the ability to sell the thing for money, let alone "real" money (money is defined almost entirely by the fact that it is something that has a certain value, meaning that "money" can be anything of value, not just legal tender. In other words, money is a fluid medium, so the term "real" means very little in the context of money and gambling). Not only should this be self-evident, it also seems to cause trouble for your argument, as you use "real money" to purchase crowns (thereby proving that crowns have value, and value of a definable amount, at that), and those crowns are used to purchase crown crates (again, transferring upon them a certain value). The exchanging of currency that represents value inherently gives things that are purchased a certain value. I mean, if nothing else, realize that electronic currency is used right now, and paper money is also used, as it metal money, as people used to use salt money (I'm sure you've heard of the origins of the term "salary"), as people used to use stone currency, as people used to use chicken money. You can gamble with a pink slip to a car, you can gamble with coins, you can gamble with a diamond necklace, you can gamble with electronic funds.

Not only that, but there are arguments circulating in US courts right now (and in other countries too, some that have already passed the courts into law) about the definitions of gambling. As it is right now, the definition you use is a legal loophole used to circumvent fair practice laws, but logic (and the pressure exerted on courts by the community at large) is closing that loophole. Just recently in the US, a court determined that currency in videogames is considered a thing of value because real money was exchanged for it, just like one might exchange US legal tender for UK legal tender. The repercussions are still being rolled out, and chances are this legal fight is far from over when you consider the lawyer and lobbying power of the videogame industry, but this is where things are going. Loot crates are gambling.

So now that those facts are out of the way, let's discuss what might come of this. Certainly, even without the legal process, loot crates are negatively received by the community, hence EA coming out strongly against loot crates and changing development plans for the next Battlefield game and Anthem, among others (the Battlefront 2 controversy lost them a significant number of sales and a lot of good press), so loot crates are being toned down or phased out in some areas. I know there is a push for warning labels for games with loot crates in them, although that is currently being obfuscated by proponents of loot crates, and will likely be circumvented in the long run. In China, for example, they already legally obligate companies to disclose the odds of loot crates, which is a step in the right direction. The interesting thing I'm curious about is how the law might handle underage gambling in games, as the legal gambling age does not exactly match the legal gaming age (which is to say there is no such thing as a "legal videogaming age").

Point is, loot crates are on their way out. And I didn't even touch the immorality of concealing gambling or taking advantage of vulnerable people. That's another post entirely.

Thealteregoroman

Caitsith wrote: »

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Me when I read this post...

@Thealteregoroman

@Caitsith I did that cause everyone is up in arms about the crates BUT WE KNOW that a majority of people will prob go to whatever Bethesda reveals at their E3...

So in response, I just twerked lol...

ALL OF A SUDDEN... these crates are not that serious lol...

xaraan

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

It's gambling.

Quoting a legal definition of something from one country simply means it's not breaking a law because that country has drawn a line somewhere for something.

Which is good.

BUT, you are participating in a game of chance to win things are various values and using tender, that while not directly money, you paid money for.

Which is why the 'legal line' is being questioned right now in many countries.

ThinkerOfThings

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm a big fan of people being responsible for their own actions though so I hope government doesn't step in and try to protect us from ourselves.

I would have to disagree here, to some extent, there is a responsibility to the public or a community. Take for instance regulations that protect communities from harmful chemicals and such. We have them because not everyone will have the information to make an informed decision.

For example, a factory emits a byproduct into the air that causes cancer, emphazyma, ect. People move near the factory, or already live there and get sick. Was it the person who moves responsibility to never live there in the first place, or was it the responsibility of the factory to inform everyone that the area wasn't particularly habitable, or was it the government's responsibility to prevent the waste disposal of hazardous chemicals in the first place.

In order for someone to make a responsible decision, they need to have all the info.

So in the context of this conversation, should companies be regulated in such a way that they have to release the odds of getting a particular item from a crown crate, much like states with gambling are required to release information on the odds of winning? I think so, then people could make an informed decision on if they should participate at all.

Likely this would cause a decrease in revenue from crown crates, much like the aforementioned company would lose revenue cleaning up after themselves, but it would be the responsible thing to do, not only for themselves but also the community.

However, in a case such as this, a company is not likely to lose out on profits without some form of regulation, even if it is the responsible thing to do.

*Edited to complete thought and fix quote*

Wrubius_Coronaria

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Caitsith wrote: »

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Me when I read this post...

@Thealteregoroman

@Caitsith I did that cause everyone is up in arms about the crates BUT WE KNOW that a majority of people will prob go to whatever Bethesda reveals at their E3...

So in response, I just twerked lol...

ALL OF A SUDDEN... these crates are not that serious lol...

@Thealteregoroman

I see.

Yes you're right.

Yusuf

All lootboxes are a game of chance.

You pay money and don't know what you get for it.
Now it might not be gambling in a legal sense but that drive that gets you to try your luck at the slotmachine or the lootcrate is the same in your brain.

There are people who sold their cars to get a rare drop for mobile games. That's not sane, it can be a serious addiction for people and those guys can't even sell the stuff they win.

Kova

I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. [snip] We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

[snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

Sting864

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

[don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives.

I fail to see how providing an optional purchase can be considered "predatory...
Thank you ZOS for providing the option to purchase a chance to win a prize...
Oops! Excuse me... I'm late for a protest... We're protesting the cake booth at the Church Picnic...
Predatory practices like that are the devil...

Vulsahdaal

Kova wrote: »

I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. [snip] We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

[snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

This is a joke, right? Why would I want to shame somebody for spending their own money on something they enjoy, especially when it doesnt affect me? Makes no sense..

ThinkerOfThings

a

Sting864 wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

[don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives.

I fail to see how providing an optional purchase can be considered "predatory...
Thank you ZOS for providing the option to purchase a chance to win a prize...
Oops! Excuse me... I'm late for a protest... We're protesting the cake booth at the Church Picnic...
Predatory practices like that are the devil...

Is this a church for diabetics?

Velvelya

Its the same type of gambling as if you buy a blind bag, you don't know what you're getting in the bag, you know some of the options, and what you receive MAY be worth what you paid, but more likely its trash.

DanteYoda

Just because some paper pushers get paid off to say its not Gambling does not mean loot crates are not gambling and original poster if you cannot tell the difference you should stay away from these things..

Anotherone773

Kova wrote: »

I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. [snip] We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

[snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

Just for this im going to buy some crown crates and you know what the sad part is? There is nothing in them i want but im going to buy them anyway because i can. [snip]

#mindyourownbusiness

[Edit to remove bait.]

Rain_Greyraven

Kova wrote: »

I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. [snip] We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

[snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

Yeah.... there isn't harassment of other players in the game, there most certainly isn't a issue with the Community managers allowing it.

Nothing to see here everything is double plus good

DieAlteHexe

.....

Kova wrote: »

I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. (Saving GregoryV the trouble. Didn't see your snippage before I posted.)We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

#shamethewhales

*checks*

Nope, sorry. Didn't work.

I especially like the bit where you call for players to "openly shame" fellow players. Let me know how successful that is.

Rain_Greyraven

Osteos wrote: »

What is up with the resurgence of crown crate threads lately?

There is this fringe forum guild that decides to spam the GF with these type of circular logic arguments on a semi regular basis, they believe if they AstroTurf against the business model enough they can affect change.

Considering that some of them have been promoted to community ambassador and (allegedly) from there weaseled their way into the CM staff as moderators...who knows? It just might work.

Cpt_Teemo

Crown crates are gambling by definition though

billp_ESO

It's gambling, no way around it. Pay money for a chance to win something. That's called gambling.

It doesn't really bother me since I never buy any. But it does cheapen the game, in my opinion.

Someone mentioned a Church cakewalk as gambling. Imagine though, that you didn't even know if there was a cake there. In a cakewalk, you know what the prize is. What if instead, it was a brown paper bag that *might* have a cake in it. Or, it might have a plastic toy worth a penny.

It's called a cakewalk, but even if you win, you don't get a cake. That's gambling.

ManwithBeard9

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Crown crates are gambling by definition though

No, they arent. They are crates of consumables. You are guaranteed potions, poisons, things like that. Everything else you can get in a crate is chance of it happening. You are buying a crate of consumables that have a CHANCE to have something extra in there. You people can cry all you want, ZOS's legal department has already gone over this with a fine tooth comb and has everything phrased in a particular way that in no way legally or practically be considered gambling.

Cpt_Teemo

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Crown crates are gambling by definition though

No, they arent. They are crates of consumables. You are guaranteed potions, poisons, things like that. Everything else you can get in a crate is chance of it happening. You are buying a crate of consumables that have a CHANCE to have something extra in there. You people can cry all you want, ZOS's legal department has already gone over this with a fine tooth comb and has everything phrased in a particular way that in no way legally or practically be considered gambling.

That's what Gambling is, a chance to win something no matter if it gives things upfront that are always there, the Rng cards are not all the same

ManwithBeard9

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Crown crates are gambling by definition though

No, they arent. They are crates of consumables. You are guaranteed potions, poisons, things like that. Everything else you can get in a crate is chance of it happening. You are buying a crate of consumables that have a CHANCE to have something extra in there. You people can cry all you want, ZOS's legal department has already gone over this with a fine tooth comb and has everything phrased in a particular way that in no way legally or practically be considered gambling.

That's what Gambling is, a chance to win something no matter if it gives things upfront that are always there, the Rng cards are not all the same

Crown crates are not gambling as you want to define it. You are paying for a crate of consumables. That's it. Anything else you get is extra, a bonus, not promised. You are guaranteed to get exactly what they told you, consumables.

Rain_Greyraven

Think I more or less proved my last post....

jedtb16_ESO

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Crown crates are gambling by definition though

No, they arent. They are crates of consumables. You are guaranteed potions, poisons, things like that. Everything else you can get in a crate is chance of it happening. You are buying a crate of consumables that have a CHANCE to have something extra in there. You people can cry all you want, ZOS's legal department has already gone over this with a fine tooth comb and has everything phrased in a particular way that in no way legally or practically be considered gambling.

That's what Gambling is, a chance to win something no matter if it gives things upfront that are always there, the Rng cards are not all the same

Crown crates are not gambling as you want to define it. You are paying for a crate of consumables. That's it. Anything else you get is extra, a bonus, not promised. You are guaranteed to get exactly what they told you, consumables.

i agree entirely with you. the crates are a blind box sale.... you are guaranteed to get something. may not be your hearts desire but you will get something. with gambling there is an excellent chance you will get nothing, that's why bookmakers and casinos exist.

but this rationality goes straight over the heads of people unable to comprehend the difference.

i blame the education system.

Motherball

Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

jedtb16_ESO

Motherball wrote: »

Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

if you can't lose how is it gambling?

Cpt_Teemo

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

if you can't lose how is it gambling?

You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

ManwithBeard9

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

if you can't lose how is it gambling?

You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

Cpt_Teemo

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

if you can't lose how is it gambling?

You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling