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Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

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  • jedtb16_ESO
    jedtb16_ESO
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    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.
  • Korah_Eaglecry
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    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.
    Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on April 22, 2018 4:13PM
    Penniless Sellsword Company
    Captain Paramount - Jorrhaq Vhent
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    What is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax
  • AjiBuster499
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    The issue here with these past couple posts is that the value of an object is subjective. To some people there is no value to the consumables because you have something better or can obtain something better for less. To others they have some, but not much value, because they're items in the crates so from the perspective of "everything more than nothing is a win", a crate full of potions and food is still a win because at least it's not a crate that was empty. Because of the subjectivity of the term value with regards to an object, its impossible to argue the value of something with another person because they're probably going to disagree.

    tl;dr arguing over consumables in crates will go nowhere so stop
    tfw your sig gets wound back in time.
    Pterenophobia is the fear of being tickled by feathers.
  • Turelus
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    Anotherone773 wrote: »
    Kova wrote: »
    I'm not usually one to judge how someone else spends their time and money, but in this case it is and has been effecting gaming since it was introduced. [snip] We can no longer blame the market for pushing a product that is freely and willfully bought by those deemed "Whales".

    [snip]

    [Edit to remove bait.]

    Just for this im going to buy some crown crates and you know what the sad part is? There is nothing in them i want but im going to buy them anyway because i can. [snip]

    #mindyourownbusiness

    [Edit to remove bait.]
    Can someone tell this person they really shouldn't buy 3.5 and Pathfinder RP books second hand on eBay. I need to clear a shelf. :trollface:
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
    The Great Forums Banning #NeverForget
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.
    And you've had opportunity to disprove this by your own definition, but you've opted not to (because you can't.) (I'll happily requote, but I'm pretty sure you already know which reply I'm referring to.)

    Value is measured beyond simple $ amounts. Bear this in mind next Friday when your employer pays you in salad dressing instead of currency.

    Rarely, if ever, will the crown crate return be 1:1. That, alone, is enough to make it fit the definition.


    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 22, 2018 4:21PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • jedtb16_ESO
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    Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.

    no it isn't, and i have not suggested that that is the case.

    but a gamble is the chance of a bet against nothing, in most cases it is a certain bet against nothing.

    the crates always deliver something. you are told that they will contain consumables and may contain a rare item. nowhere is there a promise that you will get the rare item. you know why? because they are rare.
  • rfennell_ESO
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    Istoppucks wrote: »
    2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


    Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.



    So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

    Problem with your logic is that things of "value" are not limited to things that can be sold for real money.

    So past that disjunction and the obvious state of value not being limited to things you can sell for real money... You are wagering real money (to buy crates) in the hope of getting something of value to you.

    That's a clear cut legal definition of "gambling".

    If you need further logic, why would anyone pay real money for crates that offer no value to them? Furthermore, the simple fact is that crate exclusive items further the argument as they are things that can only be (well, not only... but primarily) purchased with real money. If they weren't crate exclusive (rare world drops for instance) you could argue that crates are a shortcut to rewards that are obtainable (which would still be gambling, but not so clear cut).

    (I'm fine with crates either way (gambling or not gambling) btw)
  • Motherball
    Motherball
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    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.

    no it isn't, and i have not suggested that that is the case.

    but a gamble is the chance of a bet against nothing, in most cases it is a certain bet against nothing.

    the crates always deliver something. you are told that they will contain consumables and may contain a rare item. nowhere is there a promise that you will get the rare item. you know why? because they are rare.

    Its kind of silly to suggest anyone buys crates in hopes of getting duplicates or common items. If slot machines gave you at least half the money back when you “lose,” that would still be considered gambling to me. There are many dictionaries out there. Im sure one of them has the semantics that could be interpreted to reflect this.
  • DoctorESO
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    Legal definitions change, as I'm sure you know.
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    We can argue semantics all day but anyone with a brain logically knows these crates are gambling
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    Is russian roulette gambling? Where is the thing of value there?

    This is why games of chance are considered gambling.
  • jedtb16_ESO
    jedtb16_ESO
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    Motherball wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.

    no it isn't, and i have not suggested that that is the case.

    but a gamble is the chance of a bet against nothing, in most cases it is a certain bet against nothing.

    the crates always deliver something. you are told that they will contain consumables and may contain a rare item. nowhere is there a promise that you will get the rare item. you know why? because they are rare.

    Its kind of silly to suggest anyone buys crates in hopes of getting duplicates or common items. If slot machines gave you at least half the money back when you “lose,” that would still be considered gambling to me. There are many dictionaries out there. Im sure one of them has the semantics that could be interpreted to reflect this.

    you are told explicitly what you will get - consumables. guess what? 99.999999......% of the time that is what you get. exactly what you paid for.

    you are also told you may get a rare item. may get, not will get.

    now if you go in thinking "ohh, i'll get a rare item" then more fool you because that is not how blind box sales work.
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.

    no it isn't, and i have not suggested that that is the case.

    but a gamble is the chance of a bet against nothing, in most cases it is a certain bet against nothing.

    the crates always deliver something. you are told that they will contain consumables and may contain a rare item. nowhere is there a promise that you will get the rare item. you know why? because they are rare.

    Its kind of silly to suggest anyone buys crates in hopes of getting duplicates or common items. If slot machines gave you at least half the money back when you “lose,” that would still be considered gambling to me. There are many dictionaries out there. Im sure one of them has the semantics that could be interpreted to reflect this.

    you are told explicitly what you will get - consumables. guess what? 99.999999......% of the time that is what you get. exactly what you paid for.

    you are also told you may get a rare item. may get, not will get.

    now if you go in thinking "ohh, i'll get a rare item" then more fool you because that is not how blind box sales work.

    If every lotto ticket came with a free bag of trash it doesn’t suddenly stop being gambling
  • jedtb16_ESO
    jedtb16_ESO
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    ManwithBeard9 wrote: »
    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Alternate fact: it’s still gambling.

    if you can't lose how is it gambling?

    You can still win at something and it would still be considered gambling since you have the chance to win something that is different from what you already won

    But you dont win anything. you buy a crate of consumables. Sometimes theres extra, sometimes its just 4 slots of consumables. You dont win a single thing.

    But yet the consumeables are not always the same, you'd have to get 4 of the same consumeables in every single hand in order for it to not be gambling

    the fact is you get something. if it was a gamble there would be an excellent chance you would get nothing.

    that's the difference.

    Not every gamble is about giving up everything in hopes of getting something and risk possibly getting nothing. Your idea of what a gamble is is far more narrow than what a gamble actually is.

    no it isn't, and i have not suggested that that is the case.

    but a gamble is the chance of a bet against nothing, in most cases it is a certain bet against nothing.

    the crates always deliver something. you are told that they will contain consumables and may contain a rare item. nowhere is there a promise that you will get the rare item. you know why? because they are rare.

    Its kind of silly to suggest anyone buys crates in hopes of getting duplicates or common items. If slot machines gave you at least half the money back when you “lose,” that would still be considered gambling to me. There are many dictionaries out there. Im sure one of them has the semantics that could be interpreted to reflect this.

    you are told explicitly what you will get - consumables. guess what? 99.999999......% of the time that is what you get. exactly what you paid for.

    you are also told you may get a rare item. may get, not will get.

    now if you go in thinking "ohh, i'll get a rare item" then more fool you because that is not how blind box sales work.

    If every lotto ticket came with a free bag of trash it doesn’t suddenly stop being gambling

    yeah, but they don't.
  • eso_lags
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    Istoppucks wrote: »
    I think its time to educate some on here.

    Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

    In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


    gam·ble
    ˈɡambəl/Submit
    verb
    gerund or present participle: gambling
    1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
    2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


    Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

    Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2

    https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/

    So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

    val·ue
    ˈvalyo͞o/Submit
    noun
    1.
    the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
  • Gnortranermara
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    12 pages and there are still only 3 types of people in this thread:

    (1) People attempting to distort the definition of gambling in order to deny that Crown Crates are gambling.
    (2) People who recognize that Crown Crates are gambling and oppose the personal freedom to choose to gamble.
    (3) People who recognize that Crown Crates are gambling and have no problem with that.

    I'm pretty sure every angle of this meaningless back-and-forth has been covered. There is nothing more that 1's can say to 2's or 3's, or that 3's can say to 2's or 1's. It's over. Nobody is contributing anything of value to the conversation and nobody is going to agree with the other groups, so for the love of Auriel, let this insipid thread die.
  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    Stewart1874 wrote: »
    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-04-19-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-are-gambling

    Literally says its gambling FACT (as the OP likes to put things ;) )

    I'm kinda at a loss on why folks are so keen to justify this practise anyway, imo the crown store quality has suffered since the introduction of crown crates

    literally says "SOME" are gambling lol
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    Turelus wrote: »
    They're not gambling directly no.

    However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
    Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

    On top of this, gambling laws in most countries haven't been updated to even remotely cover the topic of loot-boxes which is why it is not under the same definition, using "its not part of the definition of gambling" argument is just a lazy argument. As you pointed out with the dutch body, that is changing however which is a good thing.

    there is a reason people say the law is an ass because often or not the law is around 20-30 years behind society always and most of the time they are devoid of ethical topics.
    Edited by xeNNNNN on April 22, 2018 9:40PM
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Karius_Imalthar
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    Your post says "loot boxes". Are you referring to crown crates? I don't consider it gambling because you are receiving items from them that have a value. It's when someone doesn't get what they want from them that they consider it gambling. Out of 250-300 crown crates I've only ever received ONE apex mount. That sucks but I have received a lot of other fun things (pets, mounts, hats, costumes, etc) that I do use and enjoy. I probably didn't get the same value out of them as someone who received multiple apex and/or radiant apex mounts though.
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