Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

CurlyQTip · April 2018

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I have no idea what their data center looks like, but the way some people talk here it is like they think they are running this on all on a souped up PC.

Jokes on you, the entire ESO server is entirely located on a single PC that only cost them 1000usd.

Davor · April 2018

Ooops wrong thread.

Malthorne · April 2018

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

You are risking Crowns in a contest of chance(that is not under your control) to obtain something of value. Sounds like gambling

Problem with this is the definition of "value" in this context. I find value in everything I have gotten in crates either directly (costume, mount etc.) or turned into gems. So, I see value whereas someone else wouldn't. Who's right?

Risk + Chance. If your desired outcome is an Apex Mount, tell me how many Apex Stones that costs?

DieAlteHexe · April 2018

Malthorne wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

You are risking Crowns in a contest of chance(that is not under your control) to obtain something of value. Sounds like gambling

Problem with this is the definition of "value" in this context. I find value in everything I have gotten in crates either directly (costume, mount etc.) or turned into gems. So, I see value whereas someone else wouldn't. Who's right?

Risk + Chance. If your desired outcome is an Apex Mount, tell me how many Apex Stones that costs?

Perhaps that's the key to the whole thing. I don't buy crates to go fishing for Apex mounts. I usually don't even like them which is probably why I keep getting the damn things. I buy crates when the whim takes me to see what I end up with. That's the only goal. Usually end up with a lot of gems.

ThinkerOfThings · April 2018

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

DieAlteHexe · April 2018

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

Well that's a stretch. First, I'm not convinced that putting something on offer (mystery box, crate, whatever which isn't all that mysterious if you preview them) is "predatory". Second because someone enjoys having a go with some crates on occasion doesn't make them con artists.

This is an interesting subject and whilst I doubt that legally much will come of it, it's fascinating to see leaps of perspectives like this post.

Anotherone773 · April 2018

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

So we are going with the twitterbook definition of predatory then... Adj. Anything i dont like.

EDIT: I guess sports card collection packs such as Topps and panini sticker books are/were predatory too

ThinkerOfThings · April 2018

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

Well that's a stretch. First, I'm not convinced that putting something on offer (mystery box, crate, whatever which isn't all that mysterious if you preview them) is "predatory". Second because someone enjoys having a go with some crates on occasion doesn't make them con artists.

This is an interesting subject and whilst I doubt that legally much will come of it, it's fascinating to see leaps of perspectives like this post.

Your right it is a stretch, but it wouldn't be out of charecter for someone so inclined to social engineer a positive outlook on something that they benefit from.

pdebie64b16_ESO · April 2018

Dutch goverment is investigating loot boxes in games currenty because of the gambling law we have in the Netherlands.

Personal iam against loot boxes, it has nothing to do with any form of rpg games and is only to get more income for the publisher and the risk of being addicted for some consumers.

Cash shops are driving it to the limits right now

jedtb16_ESO · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

So we are going with the twitterbook definition of predatory then... Adj. Anything i dont like.

EDIT: I guess sports card collection packs such as Topps and panini sticker books are/were predatory too

and tokido, kidibot, forbidden planet and on and on and on......

ThinkerOfThings · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

So we are going with the twitterbook definition of predatory then... Adj. Anything i dont like.

EDIT: I guess sports card collection packs such as Topps and panini sticker books are/were predatory too

I could argue that taking advantage of a gambling addiction is predatory. However we have socially acceptable forms of predatory marketing such as impulse items on shelves next to cash registers.

It is what it is. *Shrug*

Rohamad_Ali · April 2018

I don't feel like playing armchair lawyer on the internet so I'll just say that I disagree whole heartedly and have no love for the practice of loot boxes . Since a mild gif showing dissatisfaction is too hard to handle and no feelings should be hurt over this very sensitive subject that obviously triggers mass amounts of salt if people don't agree . Feel free to buy all you want though , it's your money . I don't care how you waste it .

Doctordarkspawn · April 2018

The key word there is 'of value'.

And that word is decided by law.

If and when the law decides to include those as value enough to be considered, it will be gambling by definition of law.

Bigevilpeter · April 2018

Its exactly like a slot machine, which is gambling. You put money you don't know what you get

jedtb16_ESO · April 2018

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Its exactly like a slot machine, which is gambling. You put money you don't know what you get

no it isn't.

with the slot machine there is a very good chance you will get nothing.

with the crates you always get something.

Cpt_Teemo · April 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Its exactly like a slot machine, which is gambling. You put money you don't know what you get

no it isn't.

with the slot machine there is a very good chance you will get nothing.

with the crates you always get something.

Then again like 70% of the rolls made you wish you had nothing instead of something ha.

personman_145 · April 2018

To me, it's all about exchanging value for something that might or might not be a dopamine rush. If you keep buying crates it's the same difference to me.

Wayshuba · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

From a developer standpoint they are trying to provide what players want so they keep playing while also keeping the game from being in the red. Players make it hard to do both.

Not for anything, but what you just wrote here as proven by public gaming company financials is complete fiction. Loot crates are NOT needed to make enough profit to fund development. That is the fiction they want you to keep believing.

They would make more than enough with direct sale, subs and content purchases. Loot crates are about getting people to pay way, way, way more than something is worth.

For example, a Radiant Apex mount might be able to fetch $40-$50 in the store. Put it as a very rare chance in a loot crate though and there is a good chance someone will spend $300 to get it.

Let's say to create the asset costs $2 for every one sold. So the direct sale at $40 made them $38 in profit. The crate made them $298 in profit. Either way, they turned a profit which means they are in the black. More profit does not mean more development - EVER, it just means a lot more money in the companies pockets.

Again, what is known shows that the loot crate method of delivering digital goods to fund development is a complete fallacy.

Really so you know what it cost to develop, market, and operate an MMO? Tell me then....

* How many employees does ZOS have? What are their salaries?
* How much is the electric bill? Other utilities?
* What about property taxes? Licenses? Legal fees? how much do they spend on those?
* What is their annual revenue? Expenses? I need those itemized.

Do you even know that ZOS just manages day to day operations and the devs are Bethesda? Do you know that the cost to develop, market, and operate an MMO can vary wildly? Just because one MMO can get buy on x amount doesnt mean another can do the same. Do you think it cost the same to run Candy Crush, Angry birds, Farmville, etc as it does to run ESO? Do you actually even know what a server does and that the more complex the game, the more servers are required?

Comparing all MMOs is like comparing all cars and then trying to justify that Ferrari is ripping you off because Fiat can also get you from point A to point B. There is a reason you pay six figures for a Ferrari and six grand for a Fiat. Not all MMOs are the same so the fact that some other MMO doesnt "need" to do something is completely irrelevant.

And you dont know that direct sales will cover the costs. You just assume that they will. There is a reason why a lot of MMOS fail before they even hit 4 years old. They cant generate enough revenue to get in the black.

If you dont run a business, dont assume you know the first thing about running a business, because i assure you, you dont.

As you assume that loot crates are making them clear profit.

Plain and simple. Costs in a company are adjusted based on profits. I assure you, based on available financials from public companies, loot crate trickery is not needed to cover develop costs.

You completely missed my point. ZoS has costs. They know what they need to make to cover those costs. Gambling shenanigans are NOT needed to cover those costs. Delivering predictable product value is. As I said, every public company financials shows these loot crates are 100% not needed to make profits and I am not going to waste time going through all the math.

Secondly, I have owned my own business for quite some time and do very well with it. So don't add your fallacy and attack at the end to try and dismiss my comments.

jedtb16_ESO · April 2018

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Its exactly like a slot machine, which is gambling. You put money you don't know what you get

no it isn't.

with the slot machine there is a very good chance you will get nothing.

with the crates you always get something.

Then again like 70% of the rolls made you wish you had nothing instead of something ha.

you miss the point. deliberately i suspect.

Gnortranermara · April 2018

Istoppucks wrote: »

2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.

Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

That is false. Value-in-exchange is only one of several types of value. Utility value, sentimental value, collector's value, and other forms of value are all legally recognized and independent of exchange value.

Crown crates absolutely fit the definition of gambling. You are spending money for a random chance to possibly obtain something of value to the gambler. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with denying reality.

temjiu · April 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Except they are.

/thread

/agree.

you can espouse the details of individual countries legal definitions until your head explodes OP. A Legal definition Does not make something gambling as far as it pertains to the individual. It only defines parameters in which people can be Held legally liable. Most people who bring this issue up aren't talking about pushing a legal battle, they are describing a destructive habitual behavior that isn't helped by the nature of the boxes.

Anyone who has suffered from a severe gambling addiction can tell you that it's gambling. doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand that. But please, keep on regurgitating useless information. It's sadly humorous to see people trying to hide destructive behavior behind a legal definition.

However, that being said, just like in a casino, it's up to the individual to set their limits and understand where they can and cannot tread. Any person who suffers from addictive behaviors needs to be able to be honest and understand what they can and cannot do. I have many friends who deal with alchohol and gambling addictions, and they simply know not to step into a bar or casino. For them its that simple.

I don't have an issue with Zenimax having the crates. I'm not a huge fan of special items limited to the crates (as long as they provide them later on perhaps in the store), but the idea of the crates themselves I don't mind. I leave that decision up to the individual to know their limitations.

Drakkdjinn · April 2018

So lemme get this straight OP...if it looks like ***, and it smells like ***, you’re saying that it’s not...***?

*strokes beard*

I’m not convinced.

Anotherone773 · April 2018

I guess sports card collection packs from the 80s and 90s and panini sticker books ar

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Kalgert wrote: »

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

So... They deleted the last thread you started on a similar subject and now you started this one...
:thinking:

Incoming another thread deletion...

This guy really should give up and face the music that lootboxes are considered gambling, only that the laws haven't caught up to them yet.

Just because they are a whale who can spend heaps of money on lootboxes/Crown Crates, doesn't mean that Lootboxes/Crown Crates can't be manipulative pieces of virtual gambling poo.

Who knows, they may work for ZoS and are fearing for their bonus if things change, lol. I can't help but think the folks that don't work for ZOS and support predatory practices like this somehow benefit from predatory practices in their own lives. Con-artists gonna con, right?

So we are going with the twitterbook definition of predatory then... Adj. Anything i dont like.

EDIT: I guess sports card collection packs such as Topps and panini sticker books are/were predatory too

I could argue that taking advantage of a gambling addiction is predatory. However we have socially acceptable forms of predatory marketing such as impulse items on shelves next to cash registers.

It is what it is. *Shrug*

Again, we can go with:
* A bar/pub selling alcohol to an alcoholic.
* A candy store selling chocolate to a chocoholic.
* A casino making sure no one with gambling problems enters.

At the end of the day people need to take responsibility for themselves. But its already been determined, as i pointed out earlier, that studies show that people who buy chance crates are not in fact gamblers, they are for the lack of a better word vane people. People who care about appearance and feel the need to "keep up with the Jones". They create an artificial problem that only applies to them and then want everyone else to suffer to fix their problem. Why should i suffer because someone feels the need to own a specific mount in the game? That is a personal problem. The problem is not with chance boxes the problem is with the person who decided they MUST have that specific item.

personman_145 · April 2018

It's all about dopamine and addictive behaviours.

Come on people... it even has a card dealer. I only know that from the few free crates I've received.

Ardaghion · April 2018

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

So lemme get this straight OP...if it looks like ***, and it smells like ***, you’re saying that it’s not...***?

*strokes beard*

I’m not convinced.

That seems to be the jist of the entire thread, mostly arguing over semantics and the occasional appeal to children and people with addiction problems.

Crown crates fit the general common sense definition of gambling; they do not appear to fit the legal definition of gambling at this time. If they did someone in some government would have already found a way to regulate and tax such activity.

It's entirely possible that ZOS could get rid of crown crates as they exist today and still make a profit. They probably don't see a reason to do so if enough players are buying them in enough quantities.