Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

Istoppucks

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Menelaos

FACTS, FACTS, FACTS!

Here's the naked truth of it all and yes, it's 42.

Turelus

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

Syncronaut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sohthGNrtUA

Just pretend the guy in video is spending real money.

Feanor

They are gambling in the sense that you have a cost where the return isn’t clear (within the boundaries what can be in the crates). So, if your argument is based on the term gambling, we could also call the crates a bet instead. You’re betting that RNG will give you something you want. I also think though that everyone should have the freedom to decide himself what to do with the own money.

VaranisArano

So, is this why, despite being not that different from my state lottery, ZOS doesn't yet have to release the odds of getting various tiers of items in the Crown Crates the way my state lottery has to disclose the odds of (not) breaking even and the tiers of rewards?

And this is why I stick to the free Crown Crates. Because I know the House always wins, but I prefer to know my official odds of losing.

JD2013

In essence, they are gambling though.

You buy a crate in hope of gaining some kind of item that you would like. You do not know whether or not you are going to "win" something good or not. You have odds.

So, really, despite the fact that you can't sell what you get, they most certainly, in spirit at least, are gambling. You take a gamble for an item you would want. They have sounds, quite brightly coloured, and look as though taking a chance would be "fun"."

Menelaos

As a bonus, OP's "legal" definition lacks another item:

2. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
e.g. ‘the British could only gamble that something would turn up’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/gamble

Raraaku

Just because it isn't gambling does not mean they don't utilize gambling tactics or work in the same way as common games that people gamble on.

Spending real money on a small chance for a high reward, which if the reward is really rare or even uncommon, triggers the brain's reward center and gives an individual a small dose of dopamine to tell the body "Hey, I like this! How can we do it again?" Some people's brain chemistry triggers a much larger dose, which can lead to addiction. I know because I have a history of drug abuse, not proud of it but hey, it is what it is. Luckily I personally don't like gambling so it doesn't trigger me like it might other people. There are a lot of clinical experiments on mice in which they will ignore everything and keep pushing a button over and over until the RNG allows them to have a reward, and then they'll do it all over again.

P.S. 562 days clean, wooot!

Merlin13KAGL

In the U.S. it's definined like this:

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value (true)

...upon the outcome of a contest of chance (RNG of crates)

... or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, (Still RNG, so still true.)

..upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

• Your definition of "something of value" doesn't matter.
• Your definition of "gambling" doesnt' matter.
• Yours is the only recent thread about this topic.
• Your declaration that it's not is no more useful than threads that declare that it is.

The govt. will be the one making the call in the long run, and your feelings or interpretation on the matter will be as relevant then as they are now. (HINT: They aren't.)

Feanor

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, is this why, despite being not that different from my state lottery, ZOS doesn't yet have to release the odds of getting various tiers of items in the Crown Crates the way my state lottery has to disclose the odds of (not) breaking even and the tiers of rewards?

And this is why I stick to the free Crown Crates. Because I know the House always wins, but I prefer to know my official odds of losing.

I would say though that the million euro or dollar prize is a far greater incentive to spend unreasonably than a Digital Crown Store item that is cosmetic. Besides, @Faunter research has given us a pretty good grasp on what to expect. It’s not like this is a total black box.

reiverx

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Turelus

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Sadly a lot of the people who pass those laws profit from it not catching up so quick.

maroite

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Aebaradath

Istoppucks wrote: »

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Except they are.

/thread

Feanor

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

I strongly disagree. A paternalistic approach is always the wrong way. What you call destructive is freedom to me. In essence, being a human being means both the right and the capability of ordering the own life, and to decide yourself what you want to do with it and within. Of course there need to be limits on business practices, e.g. fraud. The boxes don’t cross these limits. I’d like to keep my decision to decide whether I want that option of a box or not.

Kalgert

Oh hey, it's the guy who has "A Friend" who is a millionaire who buys classic cars for tons of money (Which is hilarious when you think about it and is definitely a troll thing he said).

I refer to you to this video that I posted on the Dodo-thread, since it was relevant for your "Muh cosmetics" chant, and could still be relevant for your "Muh gambling" chant.

https://youtu.be/Ce5CDrq4dGg

Alternatively, here is a video all about the lootboxes and Crown Crates and whatever-box.

https://youtu.be/NLDid1UNyg8

VaranisArano

Feanor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, is this why, despite being not that different from my state lottery, ZOS doesn't yet have to release the odds of getting various tiers of items in the Crown Crates the way my state lottery has to disclose the odds of (not) breaking even and the tiers of rewards?

And this is why I stick to the free Crown Crates. Because I know the House always wins, but I prefer to know my official odds of losing.

I would say though that the million euro or dollar prize is a far greater incentive to spend unreasonably than a Digital Crown Store item that is cosmetic. Besides, Faunter research has given us a pretty good grasp on what to expect. It’s not like this is a total black box.

I may be unusual in this, but I prefer to have the official odds rather than the odds as collected by an addon after crates have already been opened. As it is, I know the odds suck, but I prefer to have them officially released by ZOS which would add a great deal of transparency currently lacking in the whole process.

NewBlacksmurf

Sorry but it’s actually called games of chance to cover all types and one working meaning for games of chance:

A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomizing device, and upon which contestants may choose to wager money or anything of monetary value. Common devices used include dice, spinning tops, playing cards, roulette wheels, or numbered balls drawn from a container.

We are literally spending money on crowns, and using those crowns for a number of games of chance whose outcome has an established value within another created currency. That’s kinda of why some ppl argue about it but.....have you ever gone to a casino?
They use chips.....so crowns are like the chips.
The only difference here is you can’t get anything from the game of chance to take away, it all stays in the system so.....there’s that and which results in these arguments.


One things for sure tho.....It’s literally a game of chance so the responses are justified. Ya know like raffles, bingo, loot crates, poker, etc.

Violynne

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Please don't become a teacher as those you'll teach will be more stupid at no fault of their own.

Definition of lottery:
a process or thing whose success or outcome is governed by chance

A lottery does not need to have a monetary reward. Ever play Fallout: New Vegas? Remember Nipton? Lottery.

Crown Crates are a lottery. Plain and simple. Just because it doesn't offer money doesn't change this fact.

Legislation has gambling laws. Not to prevent people from playing, but to prevent casinos from rigging the chance so players can never win.

There's a very good reason why the US government is looking into random loot offerings in gaming. Many parents have expressed concern this behavior can induce addiction, which has verifiable proof from too many studies to count.

In fact, we even see the very behavioral patterns on this very site: people spend "extra" money on a chance, then find themselves extremely disappointed they did not win. Yet, they continue to purchase in the hope their chances improve with the next purchase.

This is clearly a problem for several reasons (again, as facts):
1) ZoS does not post the odds of success at obtaining the items offered. Without the odds, players have no idea how low the risk is. This is blatantly disgusting, as without those odds, players will continue to believe the "odds will get better" since they had a "losing" streak.

2) It's not a true RNG system. There are hidden cool down timers behind the crates. Get that "ZOMG" item, but not really the one you wanted? Congratulations! You won't get one again for a while. This cool down timer is not declared to players, nor do we have any idea how long it lasts.

3) The system is designed to build enticement, usually by offering a "freebie" to get people to purchase more. Ever play a crane game where it seems the "cheap" toys were much easier to get but the good ones never seem to budge? This is enticement at play, because while not entirely illegal, the good stuff is wedged in deeply, so the cheap stuff moves first before giving up the better.

4) ALL THIS STUFF IS DIGITAL, MEANING THERE IS NO FINITE SUPPLY. By casting digital goods behind a chance allows ZoS to implement a "Get it soon or it'll be gone!" time restriction, which is also designed to push people into spending. How the hell can a digital good "be gone"?


Just like the candy aisle at checkouts, the entire thing is set up to take advantage of people's whims. Regardless if a person is mature, reasonable, smart, etc., impulse buying equates to billions and companies know this.

Crown Crates aren't the problem. The lottery system behind them is the problem. If ZoS displayed the actual odds and cool down timer, you can bet most reasonable people would immediately stop buying them. This is why they don't display them.

I truly feel sorry for those who have addictive qualities and are wasting away their money on this lottery system.

So, there's your true education.

Class dismissed.

reiverx

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Well, that's the thing. Those cards are real and can't be taken away.

ZOS can shut you down anytime they want, and it's bye-bye virtual items.

Istoppucks

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

Lets use facts here. The Dutch body found 4 out of 10 needed to adjust their rules because....get ready for the fun part....the had items in their crates that could be sold for real money.

Please dont come here with stories you are going to twist to try and prove a point . Lets stick to the facts.

maroite

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

In the U.S. it's definined like this:

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value (true)

...upon the outcome of a contest of chance (RNG of crates)

... or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, (Still RNG, so still true.)

..upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

• Your definition of "something of value" doesn't matter.
• Your definition of "gambling" doesnt' matter.
• Yours is the only recent thread about this topic.
• Your declaration that it's not is no more useful than threads that declare that it is.

The govt. will be the one making the call in the long run, and your feelings or interpretation on the matter will be as relevant then as they are now. (HINT: They aren't.)

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

In the U.S. it's definined like this:

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value (true)

...upon the outcome of a contest of chance (RNG of crates)

... or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, (Still RNG, so still true.)

..upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

• Your definition of "something of value" doesn't matter.
• Your definition of "gambling" doesnt' matter.
• Yours is the only recent thread about this topic.
• Your declaration that it's not is no more useful than threads that declare that it is.

The govt. will be the one making the call in the long run, and your feelings or interpretation on the matter will be as relevant then as they are now. (HINT: They aren't.)

Contest of chance implies that you're competing against other people, not randomly opening packages. There is no "contest" in buying a randomized package of goods and opening it. You're also cutting up the statements to fit your argument. "future contingent event" is critical to "not under his control or influence."

You're also not staking anything. You're purchasing a crate that has random loot. You're trading your money 1 for 1. There is no chance that you will pay ZOS, and end up getting 0 crates. (outside of bugs but I'm sure ZOS usually corrects this OR your CC/Bank will.)

Yzalirk

Crown Crates are a form of gambling. You buy them in the hopes of getting what you desire. Just because they do not have a definite monetary value does not exclude them as gambling.

They may not exactly have a real life monetary value however; but certain items do. For example, the Dragon Priest Costume was being sold in the Crown Store a while back for 1000 Crowns, or something like that. Regardless, that has an equivalent of like $10. I have a chance of buying the 4-pack of crates to get that costume, which would be cheaper in actuality assuming I get it, or the 15-pack of crates which would be more than what it is worth. When it comes down to it, it is up to a determined algorithm to give me that specified item out of all items in the crates on top of duplicates.

maroite

reiverx wrote: »

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Well, that's the thing. Those cards are real and can't be taken away.

ZOS can shut you down anytime they want, and it's bye-bye virtual items.

Maybe you've never heard of Decipher? You should look it up. Or even the devaluation of sports cards. You may have a "physical" card, but the value can be taken away.

Also - if that's the case, then purchasing a subscription is also a gamble.

Kalgert

reiverx wrote: »

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Well, that's the thing. Those cards are real and can't be taken away.

ZOS can shut you down anytime they want, and it's bye-bye virtual items.

Not to mention collectible cards can be traded between people, so they have that benefit as well.

I would dare to compare them in a way to Motifs: Collectibles that can be traded between people, or sold for different values based on rarity. Unfortunately, Motifs are only there until Zenimax wills it so, so if they decide to pull the plug on the game/someone's accounf, they are gone for good.

maroite

Yzalirk wrote: »

Crown Crates are a form of gambling. You buy them in the hopes of getting what you desire. Just because they do not have a definite monetary value does not exclude them as gambling.

They may not exactly have a real life monetary value however; but certain items do. For example, the Dragon Priest Costume was being sold in the Crown Store a while back for 1000 Crowns, or something like that. Regardless, that has an equivalent of like $10. I have a chance of buying the 4-pack of crates to get that costume, which would be cheaper in actuality assuming I get it, or the 15-pack of crates which would be more than what it is worth. When it comes down to it, it is up to a determined algorithm to give me that specified item out of all items in the crates on top of duplicates.

So by your definition, happy meals are a form of gambling? I buy it in hopes of getting that one toy I want. You just described RNG, not gambling. You could buy 15, worth more, but you get other items and the chance to get the one you want. If you don't get the one you want, ZOS doesn't come along and take ALL of the other items away from you. If they did, THAT would be closer to gambling.

Turelus

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

Those are the only ones facing bans. Their reports went into their findings that these boxes did indeed have manipulative design.

If you have the time there is a full diagnosis of what happened in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8ssMDbmrw

reiverx

maroite wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

Well, that's the thing. Those cards are real and can't be taken away.

ZOS can shut you down anytime they want, and it's bye-bye virtual items.

Maybe you've never heard of Decipher? You should look it up. Or even the devaluation of sports cards. You may have a "physical" card, but the value can be taken away.

Also - if that's the case, then purchasing a subscription is also a gamble.

Most physical things devalue over time. Some, like antiques, can go up in value.

A subscription is a paid service.

lygerseye

Something I like to remind people, especially when it comes to laws/rules: legal does not equate to ethical, but nor are they mutually exclusive.

redspecter23

If it were gambling, it would be regulated and that's the entire problem. Companies are careful not to cross the line so they can maintain their predatory practices without any rules. That will end sooner or later.