Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

heaven13

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

@Rain_Greyraven if you're getting hate whispers, I'd report them in game. While I do not like crown crates, I will never harass someone over them and no one else should be either. It's ZOS that has developed this marketing technique and, yes I do wish players would stop buying into them so ZOS would come up with a fairer business practice all can benefit from.

However, at the end of the day, if people want to spend their money, that's their business. Not to mention, there's absolutely ZERO way to tell if someone got a crate reward from buying a lot of crates, a few crates, or opening just the free ones ZOS gave them. I will voice my opinion on crates and that I think they are not consumer friendly which is my right as a consumer. It is not my right to be hateful towards someone else because they participate and I don't.

no that is not true.... blind box sales have been around for a long time.

that is what the crown crates are a blind box sale.

lots of companies use the tactic... interestingly most of them contain toys or collectables for children.

don't believe me google... blind box sale .... and look at the results (other search engines are available.

the only difference is that the crown crated contain virtual items.

I do believe you; no need for google (and no need to be condescending about it). I should reword to say that it is ZOS that put this marketing technique in their game.

Either way, you've entirely missed the point of that post.

i apologize if my response came across as condescending, it was not intended to be. i was pointing out a factual error in what i though was an otherwise sensible post.

Alright, cool.

I took the whole "google or other search engines are available" comment as condescending (some people do mean it that way, sorry for lumping you in with those that do)

jedtb16_ESO

heaven13 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

@Rain_Greyraven if you're getting hate whispers, I'd report them in game. While I do not like crown crates, I will never harass someone over them and no one else should be either. It's ZOS that has developed this marketing technique and, yes I do wish players would stop buying into them so ZOS would come up with a fairer business practice all can benefit from.

However, at the end of the day, if people want to spend their money, that's their business. Not to mention, there's absolutely ZERO way to tell if someone got a crate reward from buying a lot of crates, a few crates, or opening just the free ones ZOS gave them. I will voice my opinion on crates and that I think they are not consumer friendly which is my right as a consumer. It is not my right to be hateful towards someone else because they participate and I don't.

no that is not true.... blind box sales have been around for a long time.

that is what the crown crates are a blind box sale.

lots of companies use the tactic... interestingly most of them contain toys or collectables for children.

don't believe me google... blind box sale .... and look at the results (other search engines are available.

the only difference is that the crown crated contain virtual items.

I do believe you; no need for google (and no need to be condescending about it). I should reword to say that it is ZOS that put this marketing technique in their game.

Either way, you've entirely missed the point of that post.

i apologize if my response came across as condescending, it was not intended to be. i was pointing out a factual error in what i though was an otherwise sensible post.

Alright, cool.

I took the whole "google or other search engines are available" comment as condescending (some people do mean it that way, sorry for lumping you in with those that do)

no... actually that bit was a joke.

where i live if someone mentions a product on tv or radio (outside of commercials) they have to say that other whatever it is are available....ok, not that funny.

Blackbird_V

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Incorrect; it's gambling.

Gambling verb
A. To bet on an uncertain outcome
B. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Example A: All items are an uncertain outcome within crown crates. It's RNG, which you CAN NOT know what the dice will roll.

Example B: You're taking a risk spending 5000 crowns (Roughly £29) on hoping you get an Apex mount - your desired result from the crates.

It's defines gambling as written within the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

srfrogg23

Must defend... must defend... must defend...

Quick, come up with a reason! I have to support this! I don’t know why, but if I don’t support it, people won’t know how much I support it!

Lysette

Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Incorrect; it's gambling.

Gambling verb
A. To bet on an uncertain outcome
B. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Example A: All items are an uncertain outcome within crown crates. It's RNG, which you CAN NOT know what the dice will roll.

Example B: You're taking a risk spending 5000 crowns (Roughly £29) on hoping you get an Apex mount - your desired result from the crates.

It's defines gambling as written within the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

Of course, it's gambling - and a pretty shady form of it at this - in any casino you get to know at least your chance to win or loose, whereas with these crates this is hidden - by good reasons, no one would actually buy them, knowing how small the chances really are. And it is the behavior of a drug dealer, to provide a "service" like this - with the first crate(s) for free, just like drug dealers do it. And it is in the same way abusive as drug dealers do it - because it is preying on gambling addicts.

Anotherone773

inthecoconut wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

People dont need what is in those crates. Either pay the price for them or dont. But for every one person that complains about those crates here on the forums, there will be a hundred people that will happily buy them and not say a peep about it. Which group you think they are going to listen too? The hundred that are happily buying them or the one that is complaining?

The thing is, its not about the people complaining anymore. Its about what could potentially be a law. Therefore they will HAVE to listen whether they want to or not.

In the US such laws are unlikely to pass. Even if they do, your going to be the one to feel the pain. You will have two options: 1) be forced to pay significantly more to play the game( here comes $30 a month subs), 2) game shuts down because its no longer profitable.

People dont get that those crates are there so people can pay what they want to play. If you want to play for free, then all you have to do is purchase the game. If players want to buy extras or chances at extras then they can and that pays the way for the free players sucking up bandwidth, server electricity, employees times, etc.

Also people dont seem to understand the concept of gambling. When you gamble you risk X amount for a chance to win Y amount or something of lesser value. Gambling is designed so that on average you will lose most "attempts". It is very possible in gambling to lose your "investment" and get zero in return. I bought a lottery ticket, i didnt win anything. The lottery has my dollar and i have nothing for that dollar.

Chance crates are not gambling because you always win in a chance crate. So its not a gamble. You are guaranteed to win. In fact you are guaranteed to win 4 times in the chance crate and sometimes 5. If you always win, its not gambling. Its more akin to secret santa and mystery boxes than gambling.

People try to turn it into gambling to fit their argument the same way they try to redefine p2w to fit their argument. Its not a gamble if you always win. The problem is people expect to win the top prize instead of a prize. You are guaranteed to win something, so not gambling. The expectations that one will win the top prize is just people being naive.

People set unrealistic expectations for chance crates and then cry and whine when they didnt get that super rare prize. Well imagine if everyone won that super rare prize... it would be like owning a sorrel horse. And studies show its not gamblers that are the problem with chance crates. Gamblers arent the people who are outraged about chance crates. Its the people who are "trying to keep up with the Jones", people who are all about vanity items and having the coolest and most rare vanity items. Those are the people, according to studies, who have problems with chance crates.

Their vanity leads them to spending more money than they can afford. It makes them distressed that they cannot own that super cool rare mount like their guild mates. It would be akin, in their eyes, to everyone around them having designer clothes, and they are wearing stuff from Walmart. Their friends are wearing *** and they dont even have Reebok's. They got shoes that say Atheletic Works on them and cost $20.

Those are the people that are so bent out of shape about crown crates. Gamblers dont do chance crates because the items have no real world value. They rather spend their $20 on scratch offs for the chance to win a million than some game where your guaranteed a win but it has no real value and you cant even reinvest it into your addiction.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on games that are F2P, and don't have loot crates to finance themselves. Honestly, all of this is conjecture and we wont know how "greedy" Zeni is, unless they were to release a breakdown of their finances, how much money they earn from people buying the game, subbing, buy cash shop items, and buying crates, vs how much of those profits are used to develop future content. And I highly doubt they would ever give us that information.

However, I still think there is an argument to be made when there are other MMOs out there that don't utilize all of the same marketing platforms that Zeni does. There are plenty of Free to Play games that don't have a buy model, don't have subscription options, and don't use loot crates, and yet they are still running just fine years later.

First there is no such thing as F2P. Someone somewhere is paying for that game. It may not be you, or him, or her... but someone somewhere is paying for you to play that game. All games have some sort of revenue generating ability.

* Buy to Play
* Advertisements
* Subscriptions
* Micro Transaction stores
* Hybrids revenue systems of the above.

Not all games are created equal nor do all require the same amount of hardware, bandwidth, employees, etc to maintain and run. A triple A game requires a lot of revenue generation. A game like Candy Crush is relatively cheap to produce and maintain in comparison. Also in Candy Crush you pay to win faster. Game of war is very pay to win with no chance crates. Eve uses a hybrid system of required sub and MT store. However anything you can buy for real money, including a sub, you can buy from other players for in game currency. So i can buy game time cards for $15 each and sell them in game for say 3 billion ISK each. So that drives sales especially since its a hardcore pvp game with real losses. People want to PVP and not spend their time farming to buy the ships they need to pvp, so they buy stuff in the store and sell it to "carebears" who spend 12 hours a day making big rocks into little rocks because its relaxing.

Chance crates are a proven best seller in the industry. Not everyone uses it. But they use other methods to make up for it. Many methods players here would be extremely unhappy about because this is obviously the first MMO they ever played and they have zero experience about how MMOs work. I mean we get all bent out of shape about jewelry crafting being tied to a xpack, BGs being behind a paywall, and fancy mounts being in chance crates. They would have an aneurysm if they learned the methods other MMOs use to generate revenue.

If you find a game that is F2P and has no obvious revenue method, point me to it, so i can see if i can find out how they are making money off it.

EDIT: Comparing how much revenue two different games need to make to stay viable is like comparing why Fiat and Ferrari have different prices for their cars. FYI, you are currently driving a Ferrari not a Fiat.

Osteos

What is up with the resurgence of crown crate threads lately?

heaven13

Anotherone773 wrote: »

@heaven13

No, vane players dont affect mine or yours, or anyone elses ability to play the game competitively. I dont care if you want to spend $100 on a virtual house, mount, costume, polymorph, pet, etc. However, if you start adding things like upgrade material that takes gear from legendary to say divine and gives a significant advantage over players that cannot afford to spend $100 to take gear from legendary to divine, then i have a problem.

I have a problem because it doesnt just affect the gameplay of the person that owns it, it affects everyone's gameplay and gives them a significant edge in all content over players who didnt spend that money. Vanity items give no edge. catering to competitive players would effectively make the game, p2w and as someone who can afford to pay to win, i dont want to see the game go pay to win.

Also i dont care as much about ZOS making money as i do about the impact it will have on my gaming. cause and effect. If we cause ZOS to have to get rid of one of the best selling items in video games then its going to have a negative effect on game play. All because some very vane people wanted mounts that they cant afford/have.

The impact could be huge. ZOS churning out more content for the store than for the actual game. Welcome to Elder Store Online. Required subs coming back( it doesnt affect me but will affect others), The $30 chapter i just bought being increase to $50 presale, $80 regular price.

Shortcuts to save money, trying to cram more stuff on fewer blades( servers). Lowering their bandwidth package to save a few thousand a month which means bottlenecks at the server because they hit their bandwidth cap. Lack of upgrades to servers as number of players increase making performance even worse.

People dont understand the impact of demanding a company get rid of the best selling item in its industry. It is literally like demanding Mc Donalds to stop selling big macs. All for what because someone didnt get a pretty cat mount in a crown crate? Boo hoo.

Im not willing to trade a few peoples vanity, lack of self control, and sense of entitlement for the very negative impact it would have on the game by catering to them especially when they are a tiny portion of the player base.

Ah, so it's only the competitive players whose enjoyment matters in the grand scheme of things. The roleplayers and solo players who don't care about leaderboards or how many people they annihilate in PVP can fund the game (since, in your words, crates are what keep this game running) while the competitive players don't have to pay for random chances to obtain things that affect the enjoyment they get out of the game because their enjoyment is more worthy of being earned rather than bought.

To be transparent; I do understand your point and I don't want this game to be pay to win either. I just don't agree that people who are interested in cosmetics (for whatever reason) should be penalized with RNG crates for the sake of everyone else. Either crates are necessary to keep the game running (in which case, they should appeal to all different types of players) or they're not (in which case, they don't need to exist as the only method to obtain certain items).

MasterSpatula

ZOS_KatP wrote: »

Hi all,

We've had to remove a handful of posts for violating our policies on off-topic posting, baiting, and flaming. In a discussion such as this one, it's important to remember that all opinions are welcome, and countering them with personal attacks, insults, and sarcasm is not the way to go about having a constructive conversation. Please refrain from arguing and bashing other individuals or further action will be taken against this thread.

Thank you.

Entertaining, considering the thread began with a baiting/bashing post.

heaven13

Osteos wrote: »

What is up with the resurgence of crown crate threads lately?

Because in the next season of crates, ZOS is introducing crown crate exclusive motif PAGES.

Scorpiodisc

redspecter23 wrote: »

That will end sooner or later.

People keep saying that, yet more and more games are starting to include them. Ultimately, the only way companies would stop offering these sort of things is if people stopped buying them. People ain't stopping.

jedtb16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Incorrect; it's gambling.

Gambling verb
A. To bet on an uncertain outcome
B. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Example A: All items are an uncertain outcome within crown crates. It's RNG, which you CAN NOT know what the dice will roll.

Example B: You're taking a risk spending 5000 crowns (Roughly £29) on hoping you get an Apex mount - your desired result from the crates.

It's defines gambling as written within the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

Of course, it's gambling - and a pretty shady form of it at this - in any casino you get to know at least your chance to win or loose, whereas with these crates this is hidden - by good reasons, no one would actually buy them, knowing how small the chances really are. And it is the behavior of a drug dealer, to provide a "service" like this - with the first crate(s) for free, just like drug dealers do it. And it is in the same way abusive as drug dealers do it - because it is preying on gambling addicts.

no it isn't. it is a blind box sale.

gambling is a bet, for example, on a horse race. if the horse you bet on wins or places you win - depending on the bet you made. if the horse does not win or place then you lose.

with a blind box sale, which is what the crown crates are, you have a chance of a variety of items. you may get the thing you want or not. but you will get something..... there is no 'lose' option.

blind box sales are common.... mostly aimed at children.

blind box/mystery box.... it's all the same.

Lysette

Scorpiodisc wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

That will end sooner or later.

People keep saying that, yet more and more games are starting to include them. Ultimately, the only way companies would stop offering these sort of things is if people stopped buying them. People ain't stopping.

Until Cyberpunk 2077 will be out - with no such crap in the game.

Lysette

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Incorrect; it's gambling.

Gambling verb
A. To bet on an uncertain outcome
B. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Example A: All items are an uncertain outcome within crown crates. It's RNG, which you CAN NOT know what the dice will roll.

Example B: You're taking a risk spending 5000 crowns (Roughly £29) on hoping you get an Apex mount - your desired result from the crates.

It's defines gambling as written within the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

Of course, it's gambling - and a pretty shady form of it at this - in any casino you get to know at least your chance to win or loose, whereas with these crates this is hidden - by good reasons, no one would actually buy them, knowing how small the chances really are. And it is the behavior of a drug dealer, to provide a "service" like this - with the first crate(s) for free, just like drug dealers do it. And it is in the same way abusive as drug dealers do it - because it is preying on gambling addicts.

no it isn't. it is a blind box sale.

gambling is a bet, for example, on a horse race. if the horse you bet on wins or places you win - depending on the bet you made. if the horse does not win or place then you lose.

with a blind box sale, which is what the crown crates are, you have a chance of a variety of items. you may get the thing you want or not. but you will get something..... there is no 'lose' option.

blind box sales are common.... mostly aimed at children.

blind box/mystery box.... it's all the same.

Haha, you lost already by buying them.

jedtb16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money.

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

Incorrect; it's gambling.

Gambling verb
A. To bet on an uncertain outcome
B. Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Example A: All items are an uncertain outcome within crown crates. It's RNG, which you CAN NOT know what the dice will roll.

Example B: You're taking a risk spending 5000 crowns (Roughly £29) on hoping you get an Apex mount - your desired result from the crates.

It's defines gambling as written within the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

Of course, it's gambling - and a pretty shady form of it at this - in any casino you get to know at least your chance to win or loose, whereas with these crates this is hidden - by good reasons, no one would actually buy them, knowing how small the chances really are. And it is the behavior of a drug dealer, to provide a "service" like this - with the first crate(s) for free, just like drug dealers do it. And it is in the same way abusive as drug dealers do it - because it is preying on gambling addicts.

no it isn't. it is a blind box sale.

gambling is a bet, for example, on a horse race. if the horse you bet on wins or places you win - depending on the bet you made. if the horse does not win or place then you lose.

with a blind box sale, which is what the crown crates are, you have a chance of a variety of items. you may get the thing you want or not. but you will get something..... there is no 'lose' option.

blind box sales are common.... mostly aimed at children.

blind box/mystery box.... it's all the same.

Haha, you lost already by buying them.

no, i didn't.

randomkeyhits

heaven13 wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

What is up with the resurgence of crown crate threads lately?

Because in the next season of crates, ZOS is introducing crown crate exclusive motif PAGES.

Seriously?

Damn, I thought they'd managed to scrape the bottom of the barrel with the radiant apex. Just goes to show you can never over-estimate the lengths people will go to in the name of greed/profit. I just hope this one does not count towards master writ chances.

as for @Istoppucks The word you are looking for is not legal but licensed there is a difference.

Various forms of gambling are licensed, to offer those types of gambling without a license is indeed illegal but it simply covers a subset of all possible forms of gambling so yes ESO loot boxes are gambling but not currently licensed gambling, clear?

Once the legal system catches up to modern digital living, if it ever does then things like game loot boxes will be properly reviewed (I hope.....)

The specious arguments they use to divorce loot boxes from our cash I would like to think will finally get kicked out and it becomes classified as licensed gambling. I still wouldn't be against them but would much rather they fell under legal oversight and developers constrained in just how far they can go and what they can offer.

Victus

Yes I too will echo what some people have said... item of value is subjective, it doesn't have to be able to trade it for money.

Cosmetic items in a computer game may seem trivial, but they do hold value to those that see them valuable. Hence the gambling association.

TamrielSaviour215

Victus wrote: »

Yes I too will echo what some people have said... item of value is subjective, it doesn't have to be able to trade it for money.

Cosmetic items in a computer game may seem trivial, but they do hold value to those that see them valuable. Hence the gambling association.

^^^ Exactly this ^^^

Anotherone773

heaven13 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

@heaven13

No, vane players dont affect mine or yours, or anyone elses ability to play the game competitively. I dont care if you want to spend $100 on a virtual house, mount, costume, polymorph, pet, etc. However, if you start adding things like upgrade material that takes gear from legendary to say divine and gives a significant advantage over players that cannot afford to spend $100 to take gear from legendary to divine, then i have a problem.

I have a problem because it doesnt just affect the gameplay of the person that owns it, it affects everyone's gameplay and gives them a significant edge in all content over players who didnt spend that money. Vanity items give no edge. catering to competitive players would effectively make the game, p2w and as someone who can afford to pay to win, i dont want to see the game go pay to win.

Also i dont care as much about ZOS making money as i do about the impact it will have on my gaming. cause and effect. If we cause ZOS to have to get rid of one of the best selling items in video games then its going to have a negative effect on game play. All because some very vane people wanted mounts that they cant afford/have.

The impact could be huge. ZOS churning out more content for the store than for the actual game. Welcome to Elder Store Online. Required subs coming back( it doesnt affect me but will affect others), The $30 chapter i just bought being increase to $50 presale, $80 regular price.

Shortcuts to save money, trying to cram more stuff on fewer blades( servers). Lowering their bandwidth package to save a few thousand a month which means bottlenecks at the server because they hit their bandwidth cap. Lack of upgrades to servers as number of players increase making performance even worse.

People dont understand the impact of demanding a company get rid of the best selling item in its industry. It is literally like demanding Mc Donalds to stop selling big macs. All for what because someone didnt get a pretty cat mount in a crown crate? Boo hoo.

Im not willing to trade a few peoples vanity, lack of self control, and sense of entitlement for the very negative impact it would have on the game by catering to them especially when they are a tiny portion of the player base.

Ah, so it's only the competitive players whose enjoyment matters in the grand scheme of things. The roleplayers and solo players who don't care about leaderboards or how many people they annihilate in PVP can fund the game (since, in your words, crates are what keep this game running) while the competitive players don't have to pay for random chances to obtain things that affect the enjoyment they get out of the game because their enjoyment is more worthy of being earned rather than bought.

To be transparent; I do understand your point and I don't want this game to be pay to win either. I just don't agree that people who are interested in cosmetics (for whatever reason) should be penalized with RNG crates for the sake of everyone else. Either crates are necessary to keep the game running (in which case, they should appeal to all different types of players) or they're not (in which case, they don't need to exist as the only method to obtain certain items).

So by your argument everything in the crown store should be set at what ever price that everyone who plays can afford. I mean its not fair that player X can afford to spend $50 on that item but player Y cant afford to spend $5 on that item. It should be fair right? I mean everyone should have the same access to everything despite any differences.

So at what price point should we set everything in the store so that everyone can afford it? $1? 100 rubles? 10 rupees? Life isnt fair and its not about what is fair, its about balance. P2W items affect game balance, vanity items affect what your guildmates think of you( for better or for worse). Comparing Apples and Rye there.

You are also assuming the two groups are mutually exclusive. Join a trial guild and look at the bling there. " I can solo VMOL and look good while doing it."

idrankyourbeer

its worse than gambling. they wont even tell you the odds. because they know if people know just how bad their chances are of obtaining some "super rare" digital item that is locked behind some RNG gambling crates, they wouldnt waste their time even trying. it definately wouldnt benefiit ZoS from disclosing the odds, or all these slimebag companies who use these types of predatory tactics to treat gamers like their virtual piggy bank and keep them hooked.

of course people would be more inclined to keep opening them until their crown balance runs dry or their inventories are maxed out from soul gems, repair kits, potions, and other useless filler if they thought they still had a chance of obtaining some digital item like a mount that took some jabroni 5 minutes to create on his lunch break that they want to sell for pretty much the entire cost of the game, or in this case, shove them into a bunch of loot crates and potentially make even more off it from all the people who try to get lucky and keep ripping these things open until their balance runs dry, or by some miracle they actually get the item that they want and then they dont have to keep feeding the machine.

there needs to be some laws imposed to regulate this. usually i wouldnt want the government involved in my video games, but its gotten to the point where developers and publishers are taking it too far. i mean its bad enough that they want us to pay what? $40 worth of crowns just to change our character name? or maybe get an extra outfit slot or two lol, but we should just be thankful that those arent hot commodities, otherwise theyd be locked behind loot crates and then one day after someone grinds his toon all the way to cp720 and decides he doesnt like the name NordyMcNordFace anymore, he'd have to spend that $40 playing Loot Box Tycoon just for the remote possibility of even getting that option.

ZoS dangles that sexy new limited time only mount all in your face, and they get all of your money and all youre left with to show for it is a bunch of soul gems and repair kits, and a belly full of mead. at least thats how its supposed to be, but im sure if you keep feeding the machine you are bound to get something that doesnt go straight to gem conversion. but of course its not gambling, no. not at all.

Korah_Eaglecry

The definition of gambling is outdated. Continuing to run back to it as if things havent changed and there are new means of gambling doesnt mean its not gambling. Money is still being spent on the chance of gaining something. Whether that money is then being converted into a digital currency and then used to open boxes or its shoved into a slot machine and a lever is pulled changes nothing. Both require the individual to take a chance of losing their money for no real gain. No ones pouring those Crowns into Crates for the consumables. No ones pouring money into the crates for the chance to win the same pet they bought from the store a year ago. Or the really shoddy costume they passed over before because it was low quality.

redspecter23 wrote: »

If it were gambling, it would be regulated and that's the entire problem. Companies are careful not to cross the line so they can maintain their predatory practices without any rules. That will end sooner or later.

Its not considered gambling because legislative bodies have a really hard time keeping up with advancements in technology and the changing behavior of its societies. Problems need to present themselves before law makers can take action. Its really not that often that a problem can be seen ahead of time and prevented through laws. Most often then not, existing laws need amendments or completely new bills presented to counteract new issues. Digital gambling in video games is definitely one of the newer issues Western countries are facing. It doesnt make it not gambling just because the legal system has not caught up with the behaviors or actions of something/someone.

heaven13

Anotherone773 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

@heaven13

No, vane players dont affect mine or yours, or anyone elses ability to play the game competitively. I dont care if you want to spend $100 on a virtual house, mount, costume, polymorph, pet, etc. However, if you start adding things like upgrade material that takes gear from legendary to say divine and gives a significant advantage over players that cannot afford to spend $100 to take gear from legendary to divine, then i have a problem.

I have a problem because it doesnt just affect the gameplay of the person that owns it, it affects everyone's gameplay and gives them a significant edge in all content over players who didnt spend that money. Vanity items give no edge. catering to competitive players would effectively make the game, p2w and as someone who can afford to pay to win, i dont want to see the game go pay to win.

Also i dont care as much about ZOS making money as i do about the impact it will have on my gaming. cause and effect. If we cause ZOS to have to get rid of one of the best selling items in video games then its going to have a negative effect on game play. All because some very vane people wanted mounts that they cant afford/have.

The impact could be huge. ZOS churning out more content for the store than for the actual game. Welcome to Elder Store Online. Required subs coming back( it doesnt affect me but will affect others), The $30 chapter i just bought being increase to $50 presale, $80 regular price.

Shortcuts to save money, trying to cram more stuff on fewer blades( servers). Lowering their bandwidth package to save a few thousand a month which means bottlenecks at the server because they hit their bandwidth cap. Lack of upgrades to servers as number of players increase making performance even worse.

People dont understand the impact of demanding a company get rid of the best selling item in its industry. It is literally like demanding Mc Donalds to stop selling big macs. All for what because someone didnt get a pretty cat mount in a crown crate? Boo hoo.

Im not willing to trade a few peoples vanity, lack of self control, and sense of entitlement for the very negative impact it would have on the game by catering to them especially when they are a tiny portion of the player base.

Ah, so it's only the competitive players whose enjoyment matters in the grand scheme of things. The roleplayers and solo players who don't care about leaderboards or how many people they annihilate in PVP can fund the game (since, in your words, crates are what keep this game running) while the competitive players don't have to pay for random chances to obtain things that affect the enjoyment they get out of the game because their enjoyment is more worthy of being earned rather than bought.

To be transparent; I do understand your point and I don't want this game to be pay to win either. I just don't agree that people who are interested in cosmetics (for whatever reason) should be penalized with RNG crates for the sake of everyone else. Either crates are necessary to keep the game running (in which case, they should appeal to all different types of players) or they're not (in which case, they don't need to exist as the only method to obtain certain items).

So by your argument everything in the crown store should be set at what ever price that everyone who plays can afford. I mean its not fair that player X can afford to spend $50 on that item but player Y cant afford to spend $5 on that item. It should be fair right? I mean everyone should have the same access to everything despite any differences.

So at what price point should we set everything in the store so that everyone can afford it? $1? 100 rubles? 10 rupees? Life isnt fair and its not about what is fair, its about balance. P2W items affect game balance, vanity items affect what your guildmates think of you( for better or for worse). Comparing Apples and Rye there.

You are also assuming the two groups are mutually exclusive. Join a trial guild and look at the bling there. " I can solo VMOL and look good while doing it."

I believe prices should be reasonable. I do not think $100 for a house is reasonable. That said, at least ALL players can look at the exact cost and determine, up front, if it is something that they can or want to pay money for. It's impossible to do that with any crate items because there is no set price.

Notice how I said "they don't need to exist as the only method to obtain certain items".

You're the one creating a false dichotomy that either crates exist in the form they're in now or ZOS has to offer everything at 1 crown (or ruble or whatever) apiece when, in fact, crates could exist as an optional method of obtaining content in addition to offering items for a direct price wherein people could see the upfront cost of obtaining the exact item they desire.

TelvanniWizard

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

You are paying money for a chance to get something. That´s always been gambling. Ergo scam crates are gambling.

jedtb16_ESO

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

I think its time to educate some on here.

Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.


Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/

So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.

You are paying money for a chance to get something. That´s always been gambling. Ergo scam crates are gambling.

no you are not. it is a blind box sale. you are paying money to get something, either 4 or 5 items.

Kanar

Pretty sure OP is an account created and run by ZoS marketing team.

TamrielSaviour215

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

no you are not. it is a blind box sale. you are paying money to get something, either 4 or 5 items.

Are you paying real money?___Yes
Are you hoping to open a crate to find something you deem 'valuable'?___Yes
Do you have any idea what any of those 4/5 items will be?___No

So you are paying money, for something you put value into although you have no idea what this item will be? That sounds like you are taking a risk to reap the rewards you are HOPING for. Therefore, thats a gamble. You put your money in hoping for a desired outcome not knowing if you will get it. That. Is. A. Gamble. lol

TamrielSaviour215

@jedtb16_ESO

To follow up....

How many people would open a crown crate for how many ever crowns they cost if they knew for certain that they would receive nothing but common items? If they knew they had NO chance at getting APEX or anything people that play the game consider 'valuable'. No one would open them. People open the crates because there is a CHANCE they get something they CONSIDER VALUABLE. I don't understand how this is not seen as a gamble lol.

jedtb16_ESO

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

no you are not. it is a blind box sale. you are paying money to get something, either 4 or 5 items.

Are you paying real money?___Yes
Are you hoping to open a crate to find something you deem 'valuable'?___Yes
Do you have any idea what any of those 4/5 items will be?___No

So you are paying money, for something you put value into although you have no idea what this item will be? That sounds like you are taking a risk to reap the rewards you are HOPING for. Therefore, thats a gamble. You put your money in hoping for a desired outcome not knowing if you will get it. That. Is. A. Gamble. lol

no.... zos publish what is in the crates. if you have even an inkling of common sense you will realise that the 'rare' items will be just that. rare.

so what are you going to get?

the junk. that is how blind sales/mystery boxes work.

oh, one more thing.... your 'hopes' have no bearing on how the universe functions.

also the universe is not obliged to meet your expectations.

finally.....

most countries have strict limits on the age at which people are permitted to gamble. blind boxes/mystery boxes are marketed to children, and their parents, throughout the western (and parts of the eastern) world.

the crown crates are blind/mystery boxes.

Potenza

For those of you worried that the crates will cause addiction - First lets examine your addiction to ESO.

CurlyQTip

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

no you are not. it is a blind box sale. you are paying money to get something, either 4 or 5 items.

If all games in a casino had a 100% chance to give you chips any time, but it could be less than or more than the amount you put in, would no longer be gambling?

I can argue you are paying money to get chips, the monetary value of those chips is merely relative.

And yes, I'd consider stuff like potions, poisons, food, etc a 'monetary loss'' when it comes to crates. Crown store loot is worse than loot you can get cheap in game. Anyone using tristat potions from the crown store are losing out on vastly superior ingame potions.