Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

Bam_Bam

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize. The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

The term "gaming" in this context typically refers to instances in which the activity has been specifically permitted by law. The two words are not mutually exclusive; i.e., a "gaming" company offers (legal) "gambling" activities to the public and may be regulated by one of many gaming control boards, for example, the Nevada Gaming Control Board. However, this distinction is not universally observed in the English-speaking world. For instance, in the United Kingdom, the regulator of gambling activities is called the Gambling Commission (not the Gaming Commission). The word gaming is used more frequently since the rise of computer and video games to describe activities that do not necessarily involve wagering, especially online gaming, with the new usage still not having displaced the old usage as the primary definition in common dictionaries.

Gambling is also a major international commercial activity, with the legal gambling market totaling an estimated $335 billion in 2009. In other forms, gambling can be conducted with materials which have a value, but are not real money. For example, players of marbles games might wager marbles, and likewise games of Pogs or Magic: The Gathering can be played with the collectible game pieces (respectively, small discs and trading cards) as stakes, resulting in a meta-game regarding the value of a player's collection of pieces.

So it IS gambling ; the context and terminology are different.

Joshuagm1991

I feel like we need to get a judge and jury in here.

Tholian1

CurlyQTip wrote: »

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

the greatest part about this thread is that I am pretty sure the majority of people who are saying that Crown Crates are definitely gambling (myself included) are ok with keeping them in the game. We are just trying to show those that are defending the crates that it absolutely is a gamble. Keep em. We don't care. Spend your money on chance. We don't care. Just don't pretend that it isn't a gamble. We all know that it is. That's the only point I am trying to make.

personally I want them to be vetted by gambling laws, keeping them in is one thing, uncontrolled gambling mechanics is another

and the reason i want this is because no sane gaming company is going to risk an adult rating and possible consequences of warnings just to keep their stupid boxes, it'll hopefully kill the lootbox industry

another reason for this, is because I want all odds to be publically available for everyone to see. Companies manipulate the odds to cheat people out of money. I don't want a single company to be allowed to have the only stuff worth having have a 0.01% chance while everything else is junk, without people knowing that is.

I’m surprised they aren’t required to post the odds.

AjiBuster499

Joshuagm1991 wrote: »

I feel like we need to get a judge and jury in here.

I'll don my powdered wig and bath robe

datgladiatah

Throwing out dictionary definitions without any critical analysis on why they're criticized. Yep. Sounds like what an idiot would say.

DieAlteHexe

Yzalirk wrote: »

To put it bluntly, those who think Crown Crates are the greatest thing since sliced bread simply cannot be reasoned with.

Au contraire. Don't equate "reasoned with" with disagreement. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this thread has shown that people can debate without, for the most part, trolling. It's interesting to see differing viewpoints and both sides have scored some very interesting points.

vamp_emily

Conversation with a crown crate user:

Me: Hi, want to know how to save some money, and get that cool mount you want?
Crown Crate User: Oooo-h no don't tell me how to spend my money, I am a whale. I like spending 1000s of dollars for a .0001 chance of getting the best mount on the universe.
Me: Ok, bye.
Crown Crate user: Oooo-h no, don't come here and troll me. i am supporting this game without crown crates the game would be closed down.
Me: You know Zeni has a financial scientist that figures out how much it costs to keep the game up and running and then embeds that cost in the price of the basegame, dlc's and expansions, don't you?
Crown Crate User: Liar! Liar! How dare you think that, Zeni needs my money.

This thread hurts my head.

DieAlteHexe

CurlyQTip wrote: »

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

the greatest part about this thread is that I am pretty sure the majority of people who are saying that Crown Crates are definitely gambling (myself included) are ok with keeping them in the game. We are just trying to show those that are defending the crates that it absolutely is a gamble. Keep em. We don't care. Spend your money on chance. We don't care. Just don't pretend that it isn't a gamble. We all know that it is. That's the only point I am trying to make.

personally I want them to be vetted by gambling laws, keeping them in is one thing, uncontrolled gambling mechanics is another

and the reason i want this is because no sane gaming company is going to risk an adult rating and possible consequences of warnings just to keep their stupid boxes, it'll hopefully kill the lootbox industry

another reason for this, is because I want all odds to be publically available for everyone to see. Companies manipulate the odds to cheat people out of money. I don't want a single company to be allowed to have the only stuff worth having have a 0.01% chance while everything else is junk, without people knowing that is.

Odds being secret is my biggest point of annoyance. The adult only rating to me isn't even about protecting kids or anything, it's about the company not wanting to lose money to that market.

It already has an "M" rating. Is there one higher than that? Honestly don't know as I'm old as dirt and pay no mind to these ratings.

CurlyQTip

I would legitimately make a game based around gambling and

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

CurlyQTip wrote: »

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

the greatest part about this thread is that I am pretty sure the majority of people who are saying that Crown Crates are definitely gambling (myself included) are ok with keeping them in the game. We are just trying to show those that are defending the crates that it absolutely is a gamble. Keep em. We don't care. Spend your money on chance. We don't care. Just don't pretend that it isn't a gamble. We all know that it is. That's the only point I am trying to make.

personally I want them to be vetted by gambling laws, keeping them in is one thing, uncontrolled gambling mechanics is another

and the reason i want this is because no sane gaming company is going to risk an adult rating and possible consequences of warnings just to keep their stupid boxes, it'll hopefully kill the lootbox industry

another reason for this, is because I want all odds to be publically available for everyone to see. Companies manipulate the odds to cheat people out of money. I don't want a single company to be allowed to have the only stuff worth having have a 0.01% chance while everything else is junk, without people knowing that is.

Odds being secret is my biggest point of annoyance. The adult only rating to me isn't even about protecting kids or anything, it's about the company not wanting to lose money to that market.

It already has an "M" rating. Is there one higher than that? Honestly don't know as I'm old as dirt and pay no mind to these ratings.

There's Adult only, which is only one year up, though I imagine that the rating itself won't affect it that much

The movie industry has been very very hesitant to release R rated films out of some imaginary fear of losing money. I imagine the game industry, the AAA part anyways, is the same, somewhat.

Having the odds public would really hurt them more, honesty.

DieAlteHexe

CurlyQTip wrote: »

I would legitimately make a game based around gambling and

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

CurlyQTip wrote: »

TamrielSaviour215 wrote: »

the greatest part about this thread is that I am pretty sure the majority of people who are saying that Crown Crates are definitely gambling (myself included) are ok with keeping them in the game. We are just trying to show those that are defending the crates that it absolutely is a gamble. Keep em. We don't care. Spend your money on chance. We don't care. Just don't pretend that it isn't a gamble. We all know that it is. That's the only point I am trying to make.

personally I want them to be vetted by gambling laws, keeping them in is one thing, uncontrolled gambling mechanics is another

and the reason i want this is because no sane gaming company is going to risk an adult rating and possible consequences of warnings just to keep their stupid boxes, it'll hopefully kill the lootbox industry

another reason for this, is because I want all odds to be publically available for everyone to see. Companies manipulate the odds to cheat people out of money. I don't want a single company to be allowed to have the only stuff worth having have a 0.01% chance while everything else is junk, without people knowing that is.

Odds being secret is my biggest point of annoyance. The adult only rating to me isn't even about protecting kids or anything, it's about the company not wanting to lose money to that market.

It already has an "M" rating. Is there one higher than that? Honestly don't know as I'm old as dirt and pay no mind to these ratings.

There's Adult only, which is only one year up, though I imagine that the rating itself won't affect it that much

The movie industry has been very very hesitant to release R rated films out of some imaginary fear of losing money. I imagine the game industry, the AAA part anyways, is the same, somewhat.

Having the odds public would really hurt them more, honesty.

Ah,thank you. I did not know that.

I don't see any problem with odds being published although I'm sure someone will come up with something. Heh.

Aebaradath

Joshuagm1991 wrote: »

I feel like we need to get a judge and jury in here.

I can provide a judge. She only has one question...

Kodrac

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

CurlyQTip

Kodrac wrote: »

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

'Why can't you be an amazing person like me, who is better than you in all ways and more, don't you see? Buying crown crates really shows how much of a true bleeding heart I have!'

I seriously don't get what point they want to make with that 'think of the servers' crap

DieAlteHexe

Kodrac wrote: »

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

Whilst I've no doubt that this applies to some, it's certainly not universal. I have bought crates simply because I wanted to see what I got. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sometimes it's not that complex a thing, y'know?

CurlyQTip

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

Whilst I've no doubt that this applies to some, it's certainly not universal. I have bought crates simply because I wanted to see what I got. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sometimes it's not that complex a thing, y'know?

Nothing wrong with that really. Spend what you will on what you wish I say.

Zinaroth

Istoppucks wrote: »

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.

You buy crown crates with real money because you hope they contain nice stuff.
You place real money in a bet because you hope you win nice stuff.

Buying and opening Crown Crates is a game in itself with a chance for valuables.

It fits both definitions - just not in the literal term.

Of course it's gambling, how is this even a discussion?

Just because the exchange isn't real money to more real money doesn't mean it isn't gambling.

In many European countries it is considered gambling by law, just like recruit-a-friend programs are considered pyramid scheming; banning all such practices in games.

The company is based in the US and the US government / legislation might not acknowledge it as gambling but that doesn't make it a universal truth. It is probably more a case of the US laws on the area needing review.

Sting864

Yzalirk wrote: »

To put it bluntly, those who think Crown Crates are the greatest thing since sliced bread simply cannot be reasoned with.

To put it bluntly, buying ESO was a gamble... You had to BUY it up front... and hope that other people did too... or else there would be no multiplayer....

You have to GAMBLE, that mega-server uptime would be worth a monthly fee... or if you for some reason are not an ESO+ member, that server uptime would be worth the box price...

There's a lot of gambling going on here Life's pretty much a gamble...

Kodrac

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

Whilst I've no doubt that this applies to some, it's certainly not universal. I have bought crates simply because I wanted to see what I got. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sometimes it's not that complex a thing, y'know?

Yes I know. Do whatever makes you happy and spend your cash however you like. I'm referring to the ones that defend anti-consumer practices.

Charliff1966

Until all goverments adjust the laws and state lootcrates are gambling nothing will change for those who dislike them. Dont play games which have them.

DieAlteHexe

Kodrac wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

I think it's a hero complex. They gladly pay more for crates because they think they're doing us all, and ZoS, a favor (being the hero) by spending more. They think they're the last line of defense from the servers shutting off. THen badmouth the rest of us for not doing our fair share.

I see it all the time in trade guild raffles. You know the type - motif goes up for auction, MM says it's worth 10k, first bid is 10k, second bid is 11k, then here come Captain Save-a-Guild with a 50k bid. Then when he wins he says "I don't even need it. I just wanna help the guild. If only the rest of you did it too..."

Whilst I've no doubt that this applies to some, it's certainly not universal. I have bought crates simply because I wanted to see what I got. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sometimes it's not that complex a thing, y'know?

Yes I know. Do whatever makes you happy and spend your cash however you like. I'm referring to the ones that defend anti-consumer practices.

I'm really interested in how all this pans out. It sometimes feels like (the "gambling" bit) the new social cause, rather like what what went on with Tipper Gore back in the, what, 80s? 90s? What irks me the most is the politicians who are latching on to this. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to politicians and I tend to wonder if they really give a you-know-what or are just going for points with their constituency.

Wayshuba

Anotherone773 wrote: »

From a developer standpoint they are trying to provide what players want so they keep playing while also keeping the game from being in the red. Players make it hard to do both.

Not for anything, but what you just wrote here as proven by public gaming company financials is complete fiction. Loot crates are NOT needed to make enough profit to fund development. That is the fiction they want you to keep believing.

They would make more than enough with direct sale, subs and content purchases. Loot crates are about getting people to pay way, way, way more than something is worth.

For example, a Radiant Apex mount might be able to fetch $40-$50 in the store. Put it as a very rare chance in a loot crate though and there is a good chance someone will spend $300 to get it.

Let's say to create the asset costs $2 for every one sold. So the direct sale at $40 made them $38 in profit. The crate made them $298 in profit. Either way, they turned a profit which means they are in the black. More profit does not mean more development - EVER, it just means a lot more money in the companies pockets.

Again, what is known shows that the loot crate method of delivering digital goods to fund development is a complete fallacy.

Cpt_Teemo

kikkehs wrote: »

loot boxes in ESO is not gambling, you buy a chance for an item. not gambling.....

Gambling by definition is taking a risk, it is gambling, also even though the items aren't sellable in game for in game currency or real $ nothings stopping you from selling your account to add that value to it so yes I consider it the same as if it were actual gambling boxes you can make real $ off of

Anotherone773

vamp_emily wrote: »

Conversation with a crown crate user:

Me: Hi, want to know how to save some money, and get that cool mount you want?
Crown Crate User: Oooo-h no don't tell me how to spend my money, I am a whale. I like spending 1000s of dollars for a .0001 chance of getting the best mount on the universe.
Me: Ok, bye.
Crown Crate user: Oooo-h no, don't come here and troll me. i am supporting this game without crown crates the game would be closed down.
Me: You know Zeni has a financial scientist that figures out how much it costs to keep the game up and running and then embeds that cost in the price of the basegame, dlc's and expansions, don't you?
Crown Crate User: Liar! Liar! How dare you think that, Zeni needs my money.

This thread hurts my head.

LOL, yeah thats not how that works.

*Actual game cost = development cost.initial startup costs
*Sub/MT store = Ongoing daily operations
*DLCs/xpacks = Development cost/hardware for those DLCs/xpacks

At the end of the day they hope to make a profit off each area. The ongoing daily operation cost of a game like ESO can top $100k PER DAY.

Lets say it cost $75 million to develop the base game. $10 million in marketing. $15 million in servers( thats about 150 cheap servers). So we are at $100 million just to go live. Now lets say starting out we expect cost to run $100k per day. That is $36.5 million a year operating cost. Thats if nothing breaks and we dont have to add any more bandwidth/servers or employees.

So we have $100 million plus $36.5 million so $136.5 mil in our first year just to be profitable that year. Lets say we make $50 off the sales of each game. Its probably closer to $30-$40 for a $60 game because everyone else has to have their cut, but we will use $50. It will take the sales of 2.37 million copies just to pay for the first year of operation and an additional 750k sales per year just to break even.

But thats not realistic either. Why? Because ESO doesnt have 250 servers, it doesnt even have 10 times that many. Wow in 2006-2008 required nearly 14000 servers and its peak it neared 20k servers. A logical server, such as PC NA megaserver will be made up of thousands of physical servers called blades. Each blade can cost anywhere from as much as new gaming PC up to as much as a new small economy car depending on the configuration and specs.

Lets say ESO requires 8000 blades in 16 blade racks and each rack requires 2.5Kwh to run. That is 1250Kwh in just electric to run the servers. If the cost per Kwh is $0.10, that is $125 an hour in electric to run the servers...just the servers nothing else in the building and that is only for 8000 blades. Realistically ESO probably requires between 15,000 and 25000 blades to run. You would have to sell 100k copies or more per year just to keep the servers powered up. That doesnt include bandwidth. Tbps possibly Pbps backbone link. You just added another 100k copies you need to sell. But then you need to add more blades to handle those new customers and there is more expense.

Meanwhile the value of your game depreciates as it gets older and new games come out. After a year that $50 turns into $40. Two years it turns into $30, 3 years it turns into $20, and buy your 4th year the copies you sell barely pay for the bandwidth/download servers required to get them to the customer.

This is all speculation because when it comes to servers everything can vary wildly. But i do know that server systems cost as much as a house or more, suck a power plants worth of energy and use massive amounts of bandwidth. And that day to day operations of an MMO can cost well north of $100k. Its not the simple formula of sell x copies of game per year will pay for game costs.

Thealteregoroman

Me when I read this post...

inthecoconut

Istoppucks wrote: »

In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:


gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
2. In the US that also add betting for things of value.

The disagreement seems to be about whether or not digital prizes can be considered gambling because they don't offer money. People argue that what's contained inside these crates have no value.

Let's look at a "real world" example. Say a celebrity were to sell raffle tickets with various "tiers" of rewards and you get the reward written on your ticket. Everyone who purchased a ticket will at least get a handshake, a fewer might get a hug, and a rare and very lucky few will actually get to spend the whole day with said celebrity. Does a handshake have value? Does a hug? Or how about being in the presence of a person for a day? There is no monetary value for any of these things. Yet this is clearly gambling, and if this celebrity were to take your money in exchange for these "prizes", they would be in violation of gambling laws.

Further more, Zeni even tells us what the value of these items are. They cost gems. Apex cost 400 gems, Legendary cost 200 gems, and so on. This is a form of currency and just because we can't calculate the exact gem-to-real-world currency, it doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Zeni has said "this item right here costs 400 gems. It has this much for value."

In my book, it has all the criteria is needs to be considered gambling. All it takes from here is a person or group of people who can claim that they have been damaged in some way by this business practice for lawmakers to label it as gambling.

CurlyQTip

Tbh I want to see people that say that crown crates are to cover server costs actually prove that they are there exclusively to do so.

Either lend us insider accounting information on exactly where that money goes and what the costs are, or drop that awful argument entirely, because no one is convinced.

The entire argument basically requires something that's not only impossible to even verify but isn't even a good argument when you can verify it, because there are games that run, free to play, without lootboxes.

Sting864 wrote: »

Life's pretty much a gamble...

Every time you walk outside you risk either winning a million dollars or being hit by a car and dying instantly, or getting a free meal that you then choke on and lose your vocal cords to. Life is at odds at all times.

Malthorne

You are risking Crowns in a contest of chance(that is not under your control) to obtain something of value. Sounds like gambling

DaveMoeDee

Anotherone773 wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Conversation with a crown crate user:

Me: Hi, want to know how to save some money, and get that cool mount you want?
Crown Crate User: Oooo-h no don't tell me how to spend my money, I am a whale. I like spending 1000s of dollars for a .0001 chance of getting the best mount on the universe.
Me: Ok, bye.
Crown Crate user: Oooo-h no, don't come here and troll me. i am supporting this game without crown crates the game would be closed down.
Me: You know Zeni has a financial scientist that figures out how much it costs to keep the game up and running and then embeds that cost in the price of the basegame, dlc's and expansions, don't you?
Crown Crate User: Liar! Liar! How dare you think that, Zeni needs my money.

This thread hurts my head.

LOL, yeah thats not how that works.

*Actual game cost = development cost.initial startup costs
*Sub/MT store = Ongoing daily operations
*DLCs/xpacks = Development cost/hardware for those DLCs/xpacks

At the end of the day they hope to make a profit off each area. The ongoing daily operation cost of a game like ESO can top $100k PER DAY.

Lets say it cost $75 million to develop the base game. $10 million in marketing. $15 million in servers( thats about 150 cheap servers). So we are at $100 million just to go live. Now lets say starting out we expect cost to run $100k per day. That is $36.5 million a year operating cost. Thats if nothing breaks and we dont have to add any more bandwidth/servers or employees.

So we have $100 million plus $36.5 million so $136.5 mil in our first year just to be profitable that year. Lets say we make $50 off the sales of each game. Its probably closer to $30-$40 for a $60 game because everyone else has to have their cut, but we will use $50. It will take the sales of 2.37 million copies just to pay for the first year of operation and an additional 750k sales per year just to break even.

But thats not realistic either. Why? Because ESO doesnt have 250 servers, it doesnt even have 10 times that many. Wow in 2006-2008 required nearly 14000 servers and its peak it neared 20k servers. A logical server, such as PC NA megaserver will be made up of thousands of physical servers called blades. Each blade can cost anywhere from as much as new gaming PC up to as much as a new small economy car depending on the configuration and specs.

Lets say ESO req

Nice post.

I have no idea what their data center looks like, but the way some people talk here it is like they think they are running this on all on a souped up PC.

The idea that just selling the game or DLC would be a sufficient revenue stream seems absurd when you consider that the game once required a sub. The annual sub cost was way more than the cost of all content released in any given 12 month period.

DieAlteHexe

Malthorne wrote: »

You are risking Crowns in a contest of chance(that is not under your control) to obtain something of value. Sounds like gambling

Problem with this is the definition of "value" in this context. I find value in everything I have gotten in crates either directly (costume, mount etc.) or turned into gems. So, I see value whereas someone else wouldn't. Who's right?

Anotherone773

Wayshuba wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

From a developer standpoint they are trying to provide what players want so they keep playing while also keeping the game from being in the red. Players make it hard to do both.

Not for anything, but what you just wrote here as proven by public gaming company financials is complete fiction. Loot crates are NOT needed to make enough profit to fund development. That is the fiction they want you to keep believing.

They would make more than enough with direct sale, subs and content purchases. Loot crates are about getting people to pay way, way, way more than something is worth.

For example, a Radiant Apex mount might be able to fetch $40-$50 in the store. Put it as a very rare chance in a loot crate though and there is a good chance someone will spend $300 to get it.

Let's say to create the asset costs $2 for every one sold. So the direct sale at $40 made them $38 in profit. The crate made them $298 in profit. Either way, they turned a profit which means they are in the black. More profit does not mean more development - EVER, it just means a lot more money in the companies pockets.

Again, what is known shows that the loot crate method of delivering digital goods to fund development is a complete fallacy.

Really so you know what it cost to develop, market, and operate an MMO? Tell me then....

* How many employees does ZOS have? What are their salaries?
* How much is the electric bill? Other utilities?
* What about property taxes? Licenses? Legal fees? how much do they spend on those?
* What is their annual revenue? Expenses? I need those itemized.

Do you even know that ZOS just manages day to day operations and the devs are Bethesda? Do you know that the cost to develop, market, and operate an MMO can vary wildly? Just because one MMO can get buy on x amount doesnt mean another can do the same. Do you think it cost the same to run Candy Crush, Angry birds, Farmville, etc as it does to run ESO? Do you actually even know what a server does and that the more complex the game, the more servers are required?

Comparing all MMOs is like comparing all cars and then trying to justify that Ferrari is ripping you off because Fiat can also get you from point A to point B. There is a reason you pay six figures for a Ferrari and six grand for a Fiat. Not all MMOs are the same so the fact that some other MMO doesnt "need" to do something is completely irrelevant.

And you dont know that direct sales will cover the costs. You just assume that they will. There is a reason why a lot of MMOS fail before they even hit 4 years old. They cant generate enough revenue to get in the black.

If you dont run a business, dont assume you know the first thing about running a business, because i assure you, you dont.