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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Ragnarock41
Yeah, which is why comparing BE to Strife isn’t a good idea. Even comparing Crippling Grasp to BE is crap. BE is most closely associated with Twin Slashes.
But with people so gung-*** about comparing strife to BE I wanted to specifically target the other parts of the skill.
What exactly is your reasoning for clarifying the heavy melee focus of the DK? I might not understand your point of view.
my reasoning is very simple. melee versus ranged. The mechanics in this game are always against melee players, both in pve and pvp. While embers have a heal with it, its not going to be as good as having blade cloak on a stam DD.
Normally I don't even care about this but seeing magblades asking for embers nerf is completely ridicilous to me.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 6, 2018 2:25PM1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Ragnarock41
Mm, okay. My aim was to reinforce the idea that Strife and BE are not a good comparison. Seems we agree.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Ragnarock41
Mm, okay. My aim was to reinforce the idea that Strife and BE are not a good comparison. Seems we agree.
yeah. If people think BE is too strong, that is another case. But this is like comparing apples to oranges, which is wrong.0 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can we also look at the cc from incap and how buggy it can be? (or is sliding on the floor a intended cc effect now?)
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can we also look at the cc from incap and how buggy it can be? (or is sliding on the floor a intended cc effect now?)
That's a server issue, but I agree. It's not fun being locked in place before you can even see the move. A worse example of this is the overload -> Crystal blast -> overload ganking. Not being able to react isn't fun.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Oh I completely agree that Burning Embers allows for easymode PvE. Slap it on any enemy, wait a few seconds, then heal for most of your health. (MagDK). I find it fitting for the class.
But unlike strife, spamming Burning Embers actually reduces the effectiveness of the skill. The heal is of course more consistent, but the damage is significantly lower. Strife gets the bonus of a heal as soon as the ability hits, while still retaining Trials worthy spammable damage. Which BE sacrifices if it is desired to be spammed.
Admittedly, Cripple itself isn't really a good comparison, just its morph, Crippling Grasp
Burning embers spam nets 4.5k healing per second and 6.5k DPS
Strife spam nets 2.5k healing per second and 9k DPS
These numbers seem pretty balanced to me. But with the new change to strife they are not balanced at all
... And Burning Embers is a morph, not the base skill, which Strife is. So you want to balance a morph to be equal to an unmorphed class skill?
Burning Embers is also melee locked, Strife is ranged.
These skills are not comparable.
when people say strife no one is actually talking about strife but the morphs. i doubt anyone could actually tell you how much strife hits for or heals for as most haven't used that skill in ages and didn't pay attention when they did.Invictus0 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Lucky28
Yep, but they always forget about the Minir Vitality buff when it comes to discussion, or the dual heal for the other morph.0 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭With strife you used to spam it as a NB tank when you were fighting a boss, it meant it would heal every second instead of every other, it wasn't used for DPS.
It's being balanced with a DPS skill, and it shouldn't/can't be, because they are different. Strife is a heal, it heals you, it heals a group mate, or whilst slotted you can get extra healing, and the passives in that tree help healing. Force pulse is DPS, and DPS status effects, with passives that increase DPS.
My only logical conclusion is if this reasoning is continue to be used, we will start seeing really daft balancing reasons, like 'Oh can we balance blur with force pulse too? it does no damage so should cost nothing...' Sounds crazy right? but it's the same logic...Edited by aeowulf on May 6, 2018 3:01PM1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@aoewulf
Right, but the issue is that many NB DPS use it as a DPS skill since the damage is comparable to a spammable DPS skill while at the same time having had a significantly lower cost.
ZOS is responding to the community view that it is a DPS skill rather than a healing skill.
It’s up to us if we want it to be a more optimized heal, or a more optimized DPS skill. It can’t be both for balance reasons.
Personally, I find the Maelevolent Offering Direction to be the heal for the NB class, so it isn’t necessary for Strife to revert to a lower damage healing skill.Edited by Avran_Sylt on May 6, 2018 3:07PM0 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭My personal preference would be to optimise it towards healing. Only really from a stand point of 'I see less NB healers than NB DPS' I don't know if that will be the same after Summerset, but suspect so.0
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Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Yep, but they always forget about the Minir Vitality buff when it comes to discussion, or the dual heal for the other morph.
they don't really forget. that aspect makes up for the lack of other defenses that other class possess but magblade lacks it balances itself out. or it did, anyway.Edited by Lucky28 on May 6, 2018 3:22PMInvictus0 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Lucky28
It isn’t that the class lacks defensive skills, it’s more that their defensive skills rely more on proactive measures rather than reactive measures.
Positioning with Image, cloaking appropriately, applying Blur.
Which makes it a harder class to play defensively in PvP. But I find that to be part of its identity. A trade off for its offensive capabilities.
I have no doubt that there are areas that can be improved, however.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
It isn’t that the class lacks defensive skills, it’s more that their defensive skills rely more on proactive measures rather than reactive measures.
Positioning with Image, cloaking appropriately, applying Blur.
Which makes it a harder class to play defensively in PvP. But I find that to be part of its identity. A trade off for its offensive capabilities.
I have no doubt that there are areas that can be improved, however.
i was talking more about PvE here. in PvP magnb's are going to be shoehorned into gank and bomb builds even if that's not what they want to play. strife was their flexibility in PvP that allowed for more diverse builds that deviated from ganking. that's what really took a hit with this change.Invictus0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the strife hot should be able to crit again
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.
Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.
Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.
Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.
Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.
Not in battlegrounds. Typically if you have a Nightblade in your group they're pretty useless; although magblades can offer decent off healing, but it's nothing a magden, magplar can't do better.
Sorry but this couldnt be further from the truth. I hardly consider 400k to 800k average healing (depending on group) as usleless or "offheals". Magblades in BGs are very strong, its just that most people who play in bgs as NBs are trash.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »
No to prevent double crits that was changed for all skills that heal based on their damage dealt.
Edited by BohnT on May 6, 2018 5:44PM0 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Lucky28
Lol, Cept that made little diversity in PvE due to the low cost + spammable damage. PvP getting nerfed for PvE this time.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.
Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.
Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.
Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.
Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.
Not in battlegrounds. Typically if you have a Nightblade in your group they're pretty useless; although magblades can offer decent off healing, but it's nothing a magden, magplar can't do better.
Sorry but this couldnt be further from the truth. I hardly consider 400k to 800k average healing (depending on group) as usleless or "offheals". Magblades in BGs are very strong, its just that most people who play in bgs as NBs are trash.
I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm basing my opinion on the average, and on the average Nightblades are AP fodder, and contribute nothing for the team. Magblades can absolutely offer great passive healing. Stamblades are still pretty meh, but with this ult it gives stamblades the option to be a great benefit to the team if they choose to.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »It feels most of the NB changes are going to have a bigger impact in PvP than PvE, yet I feel they were intended for PvE.
Bolstering is likely to become an excellent PvP skill, and swapping a self heal for invis might be to some of the more tanky types taste.
Which is a good thing since Nightblades were the only class that was non-beneficial to group PvP. The Bolstering darkness chance was a great one. It finally brings group utility to PvP. Before this the Nightblade was a pretty selfish play style.
Wait, bombers and hard ccing are non beneficial to group PvP?
Huh.
Groups pretty much ran magblade, (bomb) magsorc (negate) and magplar (heal) only. With maybe a token warden or DK acting as one of the other roles.
Not in battlegrounds. Typically if you have a Nightblade in your group they're pretty useless; although magblades can offer decent off healing, but it's nothing a magden, magplar can't do better.
Sorry but this couldnt be further from the truth. I hardly consider 400k to 800k average healing (depending on group) as usleless or "offheals". Magblades in BGs are very strong, its just that most people who play in bgs as NBs are trash.
I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm basing my opinion on the average, and on the average Nightblades are AP fodder, and contribute nothing for the team. Magblades can absolutely offer great passive healing. Stamblades are still pretty meh, but with this ult it gives stamblades the option to be a great benefit to the team if they choose to.
For sure0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Lol, Cept that made little diversity in PvE due to the low cost + spammable damage. PvP getting nerfed for PvE this time.
i mean.... in PvE you just go through the motions doing the same content for the hundredth time tying to get the set piece you want. that's all PvE really means to me.Edited by Lucky28 on May 6, 2018 5:06PMInvictus0 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Lucky28
Yeah, at which point ability cost becomes paramount for rotations. Added utility is less of a concern. Hence the balancing aimed more at PvE.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Yeah, at which point ability cost becomes paramount for rotations. Added utility is less of a concern. Hence the balancing aimed more at PvE.
not really because once you know the mechanics there is no challenge in it. PvE is not dynamic it has no variations. doesn't matter what they do to classes that's not gonna change. they need to improve the AI if they want to make PvE more challenging and engaging imo.Edited by Lucky28 on May 6, 2018 6:16PMInvictus0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Yeah, at which point ability cost becomes paramount for rotations. Added utility is less of a concern. Hence the balancing aimed more at PvE.
not really because once you know the mechanics there is no challenge in it. PvE is not dynamic it has no variations. doesn't matter what they do to classes that's not gonna change. they need to improve the AI if they want to make PvE more challenging and engaging imo.
I guess you have done every hm trial in the game right?0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Yeah, at which point ability cost becomes paramount for rotations. Added utility is less of a concern. Hence the balancing aimed more at PvE.
not really because once you know the mechanics there is no challenge in it. PvE is not dynamic it has no variations. doesn't matter what they do to classes that's not gonna change. they need to improve the AI if they want to make PvE more challenging and engaging imo.
I guess you have done every hm trial in the game right?
He's not wrong though. Yeah hm trials can be quite tough, but it's very predictable. The issue with trials is that you need 12 people to be mindful of the mechanics, and human error is a very real thing. The A.I. isn't dynamic and very predictable, but people aren't. Now with that said learning the mechanics and mastering the content is quite a process in itself, and is feels rewarding once you get to that point. But we're getting off topic here. This is about Nightblade balance changes, but our option on PvE difficulty.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »How do people really believe magblade doesn't need snare immunity and removal. A class that is based on mobility has to crutch on a two hand sword just to move in cyrodiil. That's ridiculous if you can't be mobile what's the point of playing magblade. Even with shade you'll waste all your stamina kiting away from your shade when someone is spamming you with roots. The fact that people really believe magblade doesn't need something to combat snares and roots leads me to believe that people just hate the class. A magblade should be just as mobile as a class wearing medium armor.
Maybe there's just too much damn cc in the game in general? The fact that it's so necessary to have the ability to remove these types of cc to be competitive in most scenarios says to me that there's either too much cc, or the current implementation of cc is wrong, although that's another discussion altogether.
I definitely agree with this.
1) Ordinary minion "weeds in need of mowing down" trash enemies should not be able to stun or silence players.
Those are too powerful abilities for common enemies meant to make you feel powerful by being easy to defeat. It also makes it very hard on first time players who don't have the knowledge of counters and skill to do so well or the champion points to just survive through it.
2) It requires having 3 resource pools.
That forces the hybrid stats or punishes you for trying to solo with a group focused build sacrificing the other pools. It also encourages just maximizing damage everywhere which also maximizes healing through the same stats and creates the problem that required battle spirit to nerf healing as well as damage in pvp.
They also have ultimate as a 4th resource pool. I've never seen that many resource pools all designed to be improved and focused on at the same time in any other game with successful balanced combat. It just doesn't work. Even TES5 Skyrim all the way back to TES3 Morrowind only used stamina for sprinting and blocking/bashing. They didn't use stamina for damage; either weapons had high damage or you used magicka spells to attack or both. We were expected to use magicka, so why does this game let players ignore magicka?
Magicka characters can't ignore stamina entirely but stamina players can ignore magicka if they choose. How is that balanced at all? It can't ever be balanced properly that way.
3) Personally in my opinion, I hate having control be both this common and this weak.
You can't use it against bosses which makes those skills completely useless against the one enemy I actually would consider slotting them for(since I avoid PVP). But when it is used against me it is just frustrating and hurts my hands trying to recover from it.
This sort of crap makes me really long for the old days where action combat didn't exist, maybe even turn-based combat again. There every skill was useful and I didn't ever sweat while playing a game, which is just wrong. I shouldn't feel like I ran a marathon just from playing a game I play to enjoy and relax to and to actually feel more powerful than my real life self.
I don't feel powerful in this game most of the time. This will be the main things that kills the combat for me. It always is the mark of bad combat design.
Add bugs to that and lack of unique story and places to explore, especially if those places require me to get better at that flawed combat to visit and enjoy or are constantly filled with enemies that prevent me from "stopping to smell the roses" even after they are dead due to respawn, and I just will give up and write off the game as another failed design to move on from.
It's going to happen sooner rather than later, especially with Skyrim VR out for PC finally.0
