jerj6925 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Cloak is balanced, L2P. This patch I'm using shadow cloak and next patch I'm still using shadow cloak. If you're playing vs a nightblade that solely relies on cloak to survive then im sorry but you're not playing vs a very good stamblade. Next patch we get 33% of max health over 3 seconds, hehe basically like a magicka vigor. People need to start playing stamblades like stamDK's. Woops that was a secret.

#Inbeforenightblademaincomments

Cloak has an unfair advantage until the game mechanics and counters start to reliably work. As it is Mage light hardly works and pots don't always reveal players. on top of that with the lag and other poor game mechanics cloak is really really unfair.

Breath of Life isn’t fair because it heals people when I’m trying to kill them, Shields aren’t fair because people spam them just as I’m about to kill them, streak isn’t fair because sorcs streak off across the map when I’m trying to kill them, Dark Deal isn’t fair because sorcs spam it for resources, Mist form isn’t fair because people use it to escape and LOS when I’m trying to kill them, talon spam isn’t fair because DK’s spam it when I’m trying to kill them, Power of The Light isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Curse isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak, Sub Assault isn’t fair because I can’t block or dodge it and it pulls me out of cloak. Hurricane isn’t fair because it pulls me out of cloak, Steel Tornado isn’t fair.... You get the point.

Play a Nightblade and learn how to misdirect with cloak.

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be changed. maybe also give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be change. maybe give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

You’re erroneously mistaking the fact that most zergling NBs are bad players with the fact that NB is easy to counter. It isn’t easy to counter when played by a good player. It’s just that most NBs aren’t good players because unlike any other class they can still survive against other bad or mediocre players without having to learn to kite / LoS.

The problem is when a NB uses the tools they have in conjunction with the LoS / kiting abilities inherrrent to all Stam classes.

AOE builds are weak/ vulnerable to kiting. Detect pots make the user weak/vulnerable to kiting. Those are indisputable facts.

Any NB that says there are effective counters to cloak does NOT know how to kite. The NBs that do know how to play their class - the best ones like moontan, zedisded, etc.. all agree that cloak is OP. The only effective counter to cloak is “mark target” which is only available to night blades.

The cloak nerf should either cap movement speed while cloaked at 100% of regular run speed, or they should add a detect / speed pot.

I think people are mistaken cloak for being op when really it's the stamina toolkit. I can almost say for certain if there were only magblades in cyrodiil no one would ever complain about nightblades or cloak. That's ridiculous as a magblade you are already moving crazy slow while cloak especially while snared. The change you are talking about would literally be the end of destro/resto magblade. Any change to cloak would only nerf magblades open world while being a slight inconvenience to stamblades. If stamblades are to be nerfed it's going to have to be a Nerf to the stamina toolkit in general. Fighting any stamina class open world is a complete chore when they decide to LoS you. You can not nerf the kiting ability in the nightblade toolkit because magblades don't have access to the kiting ability inherit to stamina classes all they have are their class abilities

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be change. maybe give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

You’re erroneously mistaking the fact that most zergling NBs are bad players with the fact that NB is easy to counter. It isn’t easy to counter when played by a good player. It’s just that most NBs aren’t good players because unlike any other class they can still survive against other bad or mediocre players without having to learn to kite / LoS.

The problem is when a NB uses the tools they have in conjunction with the LoS / kiting abilities inherrrent to all Stam classes.

AOE builds are weak/ vulnerable to kiting. Detect pots make the user weak/vulnerable to kiting. Those are indisputable facts.

Any NB that says there are effective counters to cloak does NOT know how to kite. The NBs that do know how to play their class - the best ones like moontan, zedisded, etc.. all agree that cloak is OP. The only effective counter to cloak is “mark target” which is only available to night blades.

The cloak nerf should either cap movement speed while cloaked at 100% of regular run speed, or they should add a detect / speed pot.

I think people are mistaken cloak for being op when really it's the stamina toolkit. I can almost say for certain if there were only magblades in cyrodiil no one would ever complain about nightblades or cloak. That's ridiculous as a magblade you are already moving crazy slow while cloak especially while snared. The change you are talking about would literally be the end of destro/resto magblade. Any change to cloak would only nerf magblades open world while being a slight inconvenience to stamblades. If stamblades are to be nerfed it's going to have to be a Nerf to the stamina toolkit in general. Fighting any stamina class open world is a complete chore when they decide to LoS you. You can not nerf the kiting ability in the nightblade toolkit because magblades don't have access to the kiting ability inherit to stamina classes all they have are their class abilities

Fighting a Stam player open world is easy. Mag users can just use range attacks and Stam players pop a speed pot and they can keep up with kiting / LoS by using single target abilities. Those are the counters to Stam’s defenses.

The problem is that cloak is a counter to those counters.

That’s why cloak is OP and not the Stam tool kit as a whole.

Mag blades still have shade, which will be very very strong next patch. But if it’s stjll a problem we can give them some sort of snare removal. I don’t think it’ll be necessary but it’s too soon to tell.

Stam players can keep up but if you are a mag player there is no way to keep up with a kiting Stam toon. Range attacks will not work once they start LoSing because you can't target them and they can easily sprint out of range As a magblade I have players just sprint away from me. I can't chase without blowing all my resources. I can't root them because of snare immunity. They are free to disengage and kite me as much as they want. If you combine Los with dodge roll and major expedition it's practically impossible to counter. It usually doesn't bother me though because I'll just ignore those players

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I see a lot of “streak is good” comments
It’s not.
-The delay on both ends
-Terrible on slopes you either move an inch and bash into the hill going up or fall slowly going down
-insane increase cost
-short jump that can easily be spammed by a gap closer

People can sprint after you for less resources

Cloak should get the streak cost increase

And passive stealth should be removed

Cloak is not on the same level as streak. so no.

if you're fighting people who know what they're doing and not complete scrubs you're gonna have a *** of a time getting away with cloak. in otherwords, this really is an l2p topic.

Streak is the easiest thing in the world to counter. Just hold down the sprint button or gap close. All streak does it put the sorc out of range of their healer.

Cloak? Not so much.

There is no detect / speed potion combination available. This means that any nightblade who gets detected by the detect pot will have an easy time kiting the person who detected them. Combine it with shade and they’re impossible to hit because all melee attacks will be kited and all range attacks will get LoSd or cloak spammed to force a miss.

Use AOE attacks? Yeah right. Show me a player who is competitive with non-ult AOE attacks and I’ll show you a zergling.

The person you just told to L2P is gm of animosity, arguably the top PC NA PvP guild and one of the two guilds that went undefeated last weekend at the big PC NA GvG tourney. He usually plays his nigntblade when he’s solo. I’m GM of the other guild that went undefeated. We know how to play and we know how counter cloak... the NBs in here defending it do not know how to use it to its full potential.

and i have to disagree with all of what you just said. Nightblades are literally the class i have the least trouble with in Cyrodiil unless i'm running zero counters to cloak which would be my *** up.

so i dunno what to tell ya man. there are many counters to NB's use them.

I’m sure that’s the case if you solo within a zerg.
Get xv1’d by multiple or even one cloaking/rolling nb.
It’s easily the strongest class for xv’ing, ganking, being a *** and has the ability to be one of the hardest classes to lock down when used by a strong player. Because one roll cloak and here comes a daddy incap sending you home off of a single mistake you made chasing that nb.

.... k we'll nerf cloak because you got zerged. fair enough. lets also nerf sorc wards because i have a hard time dealing with multiple sorcs stacks shields. Fair?.

everything you just said was you *** up and getting yourself in a bad situation and you want to nerf a class because of it?. come on.

though i will say there should be more options for detect pots. i've been thinking about that, you can make really good detect pots for magicka characters, but there are no options for stam which should be change. maybe give detection a duration boost as well. but cloak itself does not need a stacking cost increase.

You’re erroneously mistaking the fact that most zergling NBs are bad players with the fact that NB is easy to counter. It isn’t easy to counter when played by a good player. It’s just that most NBs aren’t good players because unlike any other class they can still survive against other bad or mediocre players without having to learn to kite / LoS.

The problem is when a NB uses the tools they have in conjunction with the LoS / kiting abilities inherrrent to all Stam classes.

AOE builds are weak/ vulnerable to kiting. Detect pots make the user weak/vulnerable to kiting. Those are indisputable facts.

Any NB that says there are effective counters to cloak does NOT know how to kite. The NBs that do know how to play their class - the best ones like moontan, zedisded, etc.. all agree that cloak is OP. The only effective counter to cloak is “mark target” which is only available to night blades.

The cloak nerf should either cap movement speed while cloaked at 100% of regular run speed, or they should add a detect / speed pot.

I think people are mistaken cloak for being op when really it's the stamina toolkit. I can almost say for certain if there were only magblades in cyrodiil no one would ever complain about nightblades or cloak. That's ridiculous as a magblade you are already moving crazy slow while cloak especially while snared. The change you are talking about would literally be the end of destro/resto magblade. Any change to cloak would only nerf magblades open world while being a slight inconvenience to stamblades. If stamblades are to be nerfed it's going to have to be a Nerf to the stamina toolkit in general. Fighting any stamina class open world is a complete chore when they decide to LoS you. You can not nerf the kiting ability in the nightblade toolkit because magblades don't have access to the kiting ability inherit to stamina classes all they have are their class abilities

Fighting a Stam player open world is easy. Mag users can just use range attacks and Stam players pop a speed pot and they can keep up with kiting / LoS by using single target abilities. Those are the counters to Stam’s defenses.

The problem is that cloak is a counter to those counters.

That’s why cloak is OP and not the Stam tool kit as a whole.

Mag blades still have shade, which will be very very strong next patch. But if it’s stjll a problem we can give them some sort of snare removal. I don’t think it’ll be necessary but it’s too soon to tell.

Stam players can keep up but if you are a mag player there is no way to keep up with a kiting Stam toon. Range attacks will not work once they start LoSing because you can't target them and they can easily sprint out of range As a magblade I have players just sprint away from me. I can't chase without blowing all my resources. I can't root them because of snare immunity. They are free to disengage and kite me as much as they want. If you combine Los with dodge roll and major expedition it's practically impossible to counter. It usually doesn't bother me though because I'll just ignore those players

Use snare poisons. They go through immunity. Not sure if bug or feature, but it works.

Regardless, the mag V Stam debate is a bit out of scope for this post. I do agree that Stam is stronger in small scale, but having a Stam v mag discussion is such a fundamental game element that id prefer not to mess with it. If someone is overperforming, let’s focus on the most specific / unique aspect of the overperforming feature. That’s cloak.

The only thing is what happens when a Stam class is slight over performing. do you nerf it's Magicka counterpart to address the Stam class. Mag warden is already being nerfed because Stam warden is op. I don't think Cloak is over performing I think it's Sprint speed in medium and Dodge roll with snare immunity that's making Cloak feel like it's over performing. I really do believe it's neither Cloak or stamina mobility that's over performing it's the combination of both that makes people complain.

I would assume cloak by is self is fine. but when you combine it with crit heals, and working better after dodge roll and overall stamina night blade speed. that's when it becomes a problem.

According to the PTS notes. heals will no longer crit. so I guess that's good right ?

Adding the Streak treatment means a Magblade will run out of magicka when they are trying to escape 1 of the many AoE snares out there.

Shadow Image is nice with Cloak for this situation above but if it has expired, creating another image is useless.

Not everyone runs Mist Form or Forward Momentum but many expect NBs to make this sacrifice when they aren't even willing to slot a skill themselves to detect Cloak.

The Streak treatment is equally as bad for Stamblade. They might be able to use Cloak once or twice and then their magicka is done. They might as well not slot another magicka ability.

I haven't played CP in a long time so this is all from the point of view where stats are very limited. Many say shields need a nerf, BoL needs a nerf, etc. Now go see how these things are in non-CP and imagine giving them a huge cost increase.

Is Cloak annoying? Yes. I main a magicka NB and might seem biased but I also run into NBs everyday.

I use Blockade to get stealthy NBs. Laugh all you want but it's low cost to spam when necessary and it's effective. If I can be competitive with what many consider a PvE skill to expose NBs, is Cloak OP or are some players just really OP?

If you posted in this thread and are as skilled as you say you are, you should not be having so many issues with NBs and Cloak.

Derra wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Serious question @Seraphayel

What steps have you taken to adjust your build to deal with them?
The game offers plenty of counter play to a Nightblade if you're willing to adjust you build or use alternative consumables.

Most of the time when these threads come up the people complaining are upset their build doesn't work vs a Nightblade but are unwilling to actively work on countering one.

Additionally are you doing pre-made or PUG, if you're a pre-made are you watching each others backs or sharing out skills to counter them. Note if you have your own Nightblade you can also get revealing mark in there to mess with enemy Nightblades.

The problem with this approach is: Which other class requires mandatory counterplay measures that are also single purpose and make your build weaker against any target that is not the intended target of the counter?
The answer is none.

The problem is however that NB counterskills (outside of mark which is stupid in itself) are not good enough and as a result make you too vulnerable against other targets to warrant a permanent slot.
The problem is not that NBs are too strong - their intended counters just aren´t used bc they´re useless against everything else and you can´t afford to slot them.

a NB that doesn't use cloak wont last long open world, sad but stealth is what gives them that much needed burst

According to patch notes they fixed root poisons going through Mistform. So that isn’t an option any longer.

World
Vampire
Mist Form: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs were not granting you immunity to the immobilize from poisons.