Templars need reform because the game has changed

Waffennacht

Maybe make a 1.1 sec cast time actually 1.1 sec

technohic

Waffennacht wrote: »

Maybe make a 1.1 sec cast time actually 1.1 sec

Huh. Never though about it but just looked and I see my major savagery buff start and its at 6.5-6.6 on the countdown when jabs ends. Thing the delayed animation on the last hit has something to do with it.

AriBoh

I'm late to the party here but I 100% agree. I've quit this game about 3 times. I have every class but my first was a templar and its my fav overall. Every time I get fed up of just under performing I leave. I read PTS and normal patch notes and see nerf after nerf and nothing to make up for them. The times I do start to play again I just get frustrated by inefficient skills and synergy-less passives. Like the OP says. Number one problem with temp is is just not fun anymore. Sure its not top at anything but healing but I find 'Mediocre' the much worse prospect.

FrancisCrawford

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Has anyone ever crunched the numbers between reflective light and vampires bane?

Both cost the same, both have the same initial damage

Vampires bane is single target and does damage for 11.5 seconds (for my character its 1.4k dps)

Reflective light hits up to 3 targets and does more damage for 6.5 seconds for each target (for my character its 1.7k dps)

Now while the tooltip for vampires bane shows that it does more damage in the long run, it is a far weaker skill to run a rotation with and a loss to dps across the board. Jw if this caught anyone elses attention.

Also bump bcz this is a great thread that needs to keep going.

I like Reflective Light so much it's in the DPS rotation for my healers, along with Elemental Blockade, Luminous Shards and Purifying Light.

FrancisCrawford

aeowulf wrote: »

I mained a NB tank until Morrowind, some might say all fun was siphoned from that class/role,

I see what you did there!

Cinbri

Several Templar problems can be described by situation with Enduring Rays passive:
Once it worked nicely with Blinding Flashes, than skill was swapped and passive should affect Radiant Destruction to optimize its damage-mana waste. Yet Enduring Rays didn't worked with RD, and ultimately RD was excluded from being affected by ER to stop bugging RD, yet for nerfing effectiveness of RD coz bug we didn't received buff of Enduring Rays effectiveness or RD damage buff for its potential damage decrease, as payback.
It was like "sorry, we cant fix it so we just nerf it". While same happened with major mending of dk shield - zos decided to deal with temporal bug by buffing skill.

swirve

Just play whatever class ZoS make OP by their constant tinkering...

Solinur

technohic wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Maybe make a 1.1 sec cast time actually 1.1 sec

Huh. Never though about it but just looked and I see my major savagery buff start and its at 6.5-6.6 on the countdown when jabs ends. Thing the delayed animation on the last hit has something to do with it.

Every channeled cast is followed by a 200ms global CD. Was once mentioned by ZOS.
So I wondered why not add that to duration? I guess then the last tick would be before the full duration and people would complain about that.
Anyway for every channeled cast, add 0.2s to the duration to get the time you need for it in a rotation.

LukosCreyden

Some fantastic points here. I hope the discussion continues and the devs take notice.
Also bump.

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Now that Radiant Destruction damage has been neutered (several times), I really think its cost needs to be looked at. A reduction would be nice but IMO the cost should be channeled and tick at the same rate as the damage. In PvP when you kill with the first tick, this skill is horribly inefficient. In PvE/PvP when you begin the channel but have to cancel for any reason, you just wasted a boatload of magicka. In either situation its cost is too punitive.

As for fun, I think it would be hella awesome to give our Rune the Eternal Hunt mechanic - a single target root with a bit of damage. As Joy said, Rune is so effing boring and doesn't pack enough benefit to justify its limited duration and stationary design. Maybe put the Minor Protection on Channeled Focus and make the other morph the offensive choice. The only other offensive element in the whole skill line is Rit of Ret, IMO the skill line needs at least one more. Additionally this change would support BOTH the mobile playstyle and the house playstyle. Pour some sugar on it @ZOS_Wrobel?

Well I don't think sustain should come with defense. I think you should have to choose the extra heals+8% reduction but flipside the Regen needs a boost and channeled focus should become self buff with maybe major expedition.

But @Minno it already does come with sustain + defense.

I don't want to overload the skill but IMO it just doesn't properly fill its intended role. In 5 heavy, it costs 1016 magicka. If you are on the move (which you should be), it only restores 1920 over the full 8 sec. I don't know why anyone would have about a gain if 904 magicka over 8 sec - that's garbage. Tacking Minor Protection or Major Expedition onto the existing Channeled Focus would not be overkill.

The skill line really needs more offensive utility and a root + damage on the other morph would be a nice addition that supports multiple playstyles.

Hey man, forgot you tagged me here!!

Yea, sometimes I forget the armor buffs are defensive lol. But I agree, channeled focus needs something. It only gives minor mending/armor buffs in addition to the mag regen and restoring rune offers MORE defense but costs more and has no regen (which I think is fair). So channeled focus gives armor, 240 regen per second, and minor mending.

Other class skills that boost armor give more:
- sorc gives major expedition for 7 seconds, give AOE lighting dmg which can proc imobilize passively, and grants armor for 23 seconds.
- NB is also limited duration for the armor buff like templars, but they have it as a passive thats tied to either shade or their CC stun. So they can get minor maim tied to the armor buff in addition to increasing their max health for having either of those abilities slotted.
- DKs have to use volatile armor, but they get 12% extra healing received and 5% health recovery for slotting it. And it returns dmg to melee attackers making it more of a house protection than templars ever get.
- Wardens have the highest cost armor buff compared to the other classes, but theirs lasts 23 seconds. It grants a flat armor value for slotting it, but it also gives minor protection for the full duration. So arguably the cost is alot lower if you are casting the ability every 23 seconds than a templar trying to cast restoring rune every 6 seconds in moble situations.

Of all the classes, templar and warden could use the changes. Templar needs either mobility or a way to regain offense similar to sorc/NB/DK. Warden needs the cost looked into, an extra buff added, but minor protection duration reduced heavily to balance it.

Also, Balance skill morph of Spell Symmetry, needs to be changed so that it only grants 1400-1700 health per cast instead of 5100 health. It's too punishing for builds looking to add that ability to replace their armor buff.

Khivas_Carrick

Glad to see Templars are still struggling to get some god damn class love

/sarcasm

dodgehopper_ESO

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Now that Radiant Destruction damage has been neutered (several times), I really think its cost needs to be looked at. A reduction would be nice but IMO the cost should be channeled and tick at the same rate as the damage. In PvP when you kill with the first tick, this skill is horribly inefficient. In PvE/PvP when you begin the channel but have to cancel for any reason, you just wasted a boatload of magicka. In either situation its cost is too punitive.

As for fun, I think it would be hella awesome to give our Rune the Eternal Hunt mechanic - a single target root with a bit of damage. As Joy said, Rune is so effing boring and doesn't pack enough benefit to justify its limited duration and stationary design. Maybe put the Minor Protection on Channeled Focus and make the other morph the offensive choice. The only other offensive element in the whole skill line is Rit of Ret, IMO the skill line needs at least one more. Additionally this change would support BOTH the mobile playstyle and the house playstyle. Pour some sugar on it @ZOS_Wrobel?

Well I don't think sustain should come with defense. I think you should have to choose the extra heals+8% reduction but flipside the Regen needs a boost and channeled focus should become self buff with maybe major expedition.

But @Minno it already does come with sustain + defense.

I don't want to overload the skill but IMO it just doesn't properly fill its intended role. In 5 heavy, it costs 1016 magicka. If you are on the move (which you should be), it only restores 1920 over the full 8 sec. I don't know why anyone would have about a gain if 904 magicka over 8 sec - that's garbage. Tacking Minor Protection or Major Expedition onto the existing Channeled Focus would not be overkill.

The skill line really needs more offensive utility and a root + damage on the other morph would be a nice addition that supports multiple playstyles.

Hey man, forgot you tagged me here!!

Yea, sometimes I forget the armor buffs are defensive lol. But I agree, channeled focus needs something. It only gives minor mending/armor buffs in addition to the mag regen and restoring rune offers MORE defense but costs more and has no regen (which I think is fair). So channeled focus gives armor, 240 regen per second, and minor mending.

Other class skills that boost armor give more:
- sorc gives major expedition for 7 seconds, give AOE lighting dmg which can proc imobilize passively, and grants armor for 23 seconds.
- NB is also limited duration for the armor buff like templars, but they have it as a passive thats tied to either shade or their CC stun. So they can get minor maim tied to the armor buff in addition to increasing their max health for having either of those abilities slotted.
- DKs have to use volatile armor, but they get 12% extra healing received and 5% health recovery for slotting it. And it returns dmg to melee attackers making it more of a house protection than templars ever get.
- Wardens have the highest cost armor buff compared to the other classes, but theirs lasts 23 seconds. It grants a flat armor value for slotting it, but it also gives minor protection for the full duration. So arguably the cost is alot lower if you are casting the ability every 23 seconds than a templar trying to cast restoring rune every 6 seconds in moble situations.

Of all the classes, templar and warden could use the changes. Templar needs either mobility or a way to regain offense similar to sorc/NB/DK. Warden needs the cost looked into, an extra buff added, but minor protection duration reduced heavily to balance it.

Also, Balance skill morph of Spell Symmetry, needs to be changed so that it only grants 1400-1700 health per cast instead of 5100 health. It's too punishing for builds looking to add that ability to replace their armor buff.

Hey, @Minno I believe the Warden cost is related to it buffing the whole team and its long duration. It also provides added buffs passively by merit of being in the ice skill line. I think the elephant in the room for this Rune Skill though is that it has to be recast often. Time is the biggest cost Templars face with everything. You would think the class made of manipulating light would be the speediest class. Its the exact opposite. Rune focus sucks up a lot of your time if you intend to use it and it is your strongest mana regeneration ability, something most classes can pick up passively. The lack of double duty in Templar skills means time is often wasted which in turn narrows the focus and is why people tend to go ultra tanky or massive bursty glass cannon with the builds. The problem with going Ultra Tanky on a Templar though is that the class has zero toolkit for being a tank other than survivability and frankly that doesn't cut it and there aren't enough out of class abilities to do the job (There's a reason I've pushed for them to improve Silver Leash).

Æterny

venzzini

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/profile/Joy_Division,

Thank you for a very informative and factualy backed up, current state of the Templar class.

I must say I agree with most of your assessment.

Here is what I disagree with, and a quick note, I mainly PVP so I can not speak to PVE other than group dungeons which I don't seem to have to many issues with.

Barrage is the best thing to happen to the Templar for me. I do not mind the cast time and the continual 20% increased damage from empower is very useful.

I have been playing a Magplar since Beta we have had our ups and downs.

But, I really feel our house is better than it has been been and if I was to get the stun back on the shards I would get hate tells every BG.

Again though I agree with most of your post, in PVP only 4 out of 12 of my skills are non-class.

Destro - reliable stun
Mist form- reliable mobility
Mage guild- major sorcery/or crit magicka

Here is all I think Magplar needs.

1. Remove min distance required for stun from gap close.
2. Give templar major mending back.
3. Give Magplar a source of minor expedition,
4. Review lack luster passives
5. Review lack luster ultimates.

Some non-major tweaks to these would go a long way for the class.

Seraphayel

Why ya'll complaining about Nova? It's the single greatest Ultimate in game, it looks amazing and alters gravitation. And that with a cost of slightly under 250 Ultimate. How great is that?

Seraphayel

Great thread with some nice suggestions. I hope classes get major reworks in Summerset but I highly doubt it. More likely they'll find a way to make combat even more annoying like they did last year with the sustain nerfs.

Drdeath20

Seraphayel wrote: »

Why ya'll complaining about Nova? It's the single greatest Ultimate in game, it looks amazing and alters gravitation. And that with a cost of slightly under 250 Ultimate. How great is that?

Novas great for trials. I think solar disturbance needs a change. I am under the impression that it was meant for solo play while nova was meant for groups. Imo Meteor outshines that ultimate in solo play by a long shot.

Luckylancer

I aggre with %99 of this. I am not a very old player and nerfs droped my jaw.

New radiant aura have huge range so there is no "spesific target". Sweep should not crith heal because it already crit dmg. So heal's crit was bug if you ask me. Heals benefit from dmg crit already.

Seraphayel

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Why ya'll complaining about Nova? It's the single greatest Ultimate in game, it looks amazing and alters gravitation. And that with a cost of slightly under 250 Ultimate. How great is that?

Novas great for trials. I think solar disturbance needs a change. I am under the impression that it was meant for solo play while nova was meant for groups. Imo Meteor outshines that ultimate in solo play by a long shot.

Nova is great? Better than most other Ulti options even in trials?

I find both morphs to be underwhelming at best. Too expensive, not enough damage and the synergy... I just feel limited by this Ultimate.

Jaimeh

Joy_Division wrote: »

The Toppling Conundrum. Instead I use Toppling Charge as my stun, which does have a synergy with Sweeps. Except it got me killed in this fight. Twice I had to back my character up because of the minimum range requirement and twice I got Dizzying Swinged. How would DKs like it if we put a minimum range on Fossilize? I’m guessing they wouldn’t. Welcome to the world of Templars.

It used to be that Repentance was a really neat skill that rewarded success by infusing allies with a nice heal and a welcome boost of stamina. It was, in short, an excellently designed support skill. Now? Templars in the same group fight over who gets to use this ability because it has become a selfish skill. This is a terrible mechanic. Allies should not be fighting over who gets to use what, period.

I slotted Spear Shards one day in Cyrodiil because I was feeling nostalgic. Wow, what a disappointment.

@Cinbri has an excellent suggestion:
“I also believe it would be fair and lore-wise to reduce minimal range of our gap-closer - Charge. All class charges united by fact that their minimal range is equal to zero. At least making ours for 2.5 instead of 3.5 would make it a much more reliable, as interrupt aoe or as CC, those that templar really need.

Radiant Aura : When this skill was reformed, I thought I’d like it more. However, it has not proven popular. Healers have very few free slots and I’m not going to use Radiant Aura because it is actually inefficient (skill costs 3440 magicka to cast, I need 11 consecutive ticks of steal just to recoop the cost, skill only lasts 15 seconds) in place of Elemental Drain because the latter is free, lasts longer, and applies major breech.

Healing Ritual: Healing Springs gives more healing, can be block-casted, can’t be interrupted, procs every healing set in the game, has a 28 meter range, starts healing immediately, and, most importantly is preventative. It does everything Healing Ritual does and better.

Spear Shards: Skill’s original design was correct. Why on Tamriel was the CC taken away? Because templars had too many options here??? All this skill is good for now is healer-support retuning resource because its damage is bad compared to comparable like Liquid Lighting (which also has a damage synergy).

And then there is Light Weaver. This passive is so lackluster, it’s pretty much a waste of skill points to invest in.

I agree with all these points; I understand skills get nerfed when they feel overpowering (and usually it’s because of PvP concerns), but the way Templars skills were changed made them almost useless, and removed their uniqueness (shards are just another AoE DoT, like WoE, without the stun, etc.). This ties in with another discussion on how classes are blending in and losing their identity, which I feel underlies the bigger issue with nerfs.

Then there are Templar skills that were always highly situlational/useless: I’ve always wanted to implement hasty prayer on my healer’s routine, but it’s a lost cause, because the heal is not worth the channel time. I like the idea of an AoE magicka-steal skill, but radiant aura is expensive, and most mobs die before getting the return of the cost, so I’d rather just use elemental drain on the hardier mobs instead. Thus, I still prefer repentance despite the nerf, but that’s only for solo play, as it’s a self-serving skill, and in groups other skills can fill that spot. Also, It’s nice to have a class interrupt/gap closer, like toppling charge, but the fact that it’s distance-dependent makes it awkward, not to mention risky, to use, because it’s hard to calculate it mid-fight. Finally, practised incantation is a great heal, and there are fights in which I found a use for it (more recently, during the ice statue phase in vet SP), but if I can keep the group alive without it (albeit with a little more effort), I’d rather do that, instead of wasting ultimate points.

I wish there was a way to counter skills overperforming without crippling nerfs, so that they could keep their unique elements and make a class desirable to play again in any capacity, and not just in one role (and even as healers, Templars are not really better over other classes: I recenctly revisited my Warden with SPC/Jorvuld’s/Earthgore, and not only was it a powerful combo, it was also so much more fun to play).

Iskras

ZOS - update templars!

"2. Magplars are melee DPS and uncompetitive at it."

Why ZOS HATE magplar

Drdeath20

I just hope that all skills and passives are looked at.

James-Wayne

LordSlif wrote: »

Waiting for the pts now

Its a make or break pull heart strings moment waiting to see right haha

Drdeath20

I feel confident that templars have good leadership as a class who are committed to making the game better for everyone.

Im less optimistic for some other specs of other classes

technohic

LordSlif wrote: »

Waiting for the pts now

Makes me nervous TBH. Been happily playing Stamplar but it seems to get nailed by attempts to nerf magplar like the increased cost to extended ritual. Or last patch their attemp to fix things result in a 0 net gain

Mr_Nobody

I created a guild called "RIP Magicka Templars" and keep claiming keeps w/ it, DC-PC-NA. Hope it gets some attention!

Vaoh

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Annnnnnnnd....... yes.

But will ZOS listen? Maybe.
Idk.

Probably not because it would mean admitting to so many mistakes. Many changes have to be made.

Seraphayel

I think we have to wait for the PTS. I really hope there will be major class changes. But I fear we won't get anything substantial, just number tweaks...

Drdeath20

-Enduring rays passive should just be apart of those skills and instead give us a reason to slot dawns wraith abilities. Maybe a passive that increases max magicka by 2% for each dawns wraith ability slotted. Thus will also increase templars damage and sustain.

-Remove radiant aura and repentance from the game and replace with blinding flashes.

-Add minor magicka steal to the puddle of ritual of retribution.

-for cleansing ritual add a repentance like feature to the puddle. whenever a corpse dies in your puddle you desicrate their corpse for some health and stamina (effect works on the same corpses with multiple cleansing rituals, no more compeition amongst fellow templars).

-the light weaver passive should just be part of those respected skills and instead we should get that 10% increase in magicka/stamina/health recovery that was apart of the restoring aura skill as a passive.

-Hasty prayer is now a magicka vigor.

-Both Javelins root instead of knockback

-No more cast time on solar barrage (this will help both stamplars and magplars with burst and a less clunky rotation)

-Explosive charge is a stamina morph

-Runes effects last the entire 18 seconds regardless of standing in circle

-crescent sweeps and empowering sweeps are swapped. Crescent sweeps does physical damage and empowering sweeps does magicka damage.

-remove the 6% weapon damage boost to balanced warrior and instead just give a passive physical and spell resistance. With blinding flashes, a root, quality passives, a way to empower attacks in a rotation (no cast time solar barrage) and a class stamina gap closer, stamplars will not need the passive boost in their weapon damage.

I feel that all of these are very reasonable changes and help with a direction for our class. We still have all our designated class weaknesses but i believe with these changes we help templars in all 3 roles in pve and in pvp for both stamina and magicka.

Checkmath

Right, a lot of passives are outdated and some active skills really arent worthy anymore to slot.
Cast time healing and cast time damage are tok dangerous to use. Ok the healing is pretty big, but if you need a big healing, then it must be an instant cast, otherwise the friend in need of it died while casting. Solar barrage needs to be planned to make sense. But only three waves are not worth it for a cast time ability. Maybe if we got two additional ticks... or no cast time.
Balanced warrior seems pretty outdated. Weapon damage and spellresistance. How about we get a passive, which restores ressources when we cast an ability from said skilltree?